Trending Games | Pirate101 | ArcheAge | Wasteland 2 | Destiny

  Network:  FPSguru RTSguru
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,858,811 Users Online:0
Games:742  Posts:6,244,008
Recent forum postsRSS
Active threads
Cloud view
List all forums
General Forums
Developers Corner General Discussion
Popular Game Forums
Click a status to find game forum
Game Forums
Click a letter to find game forum
A-C
2029 Online 2112: Revolution 2Moons 4Story 8BitMMO 9 Dragons A Mystical Land A Tale in the Desert III A3 ACE Online ARGO Online Aberoth Absolute Force Online Absolute Terror Achaea Adellion Aerrevan Aetolia, the Midnight Age Age of Armor Age of Conan Age of Empires Online Age of Mourning Age of Wulin Age of Wushu Aida Arenas Aika Aion Albion Online Alganon All Points Bulletin (APB) Allods Online Altis Gates Amazing World Anarchy Online Ancients of Fasaria Andromeda 5 Angels Online Angry Birds Epic Anime Trumps Anmynor Anno Online Applo Arcane Hearts Arcane Legends ArchLord ArcheAge Archeblade Archlord X Ascend: Hand of Kul Asda 2 Asda Story Ashen Empires Asheron's Call Asheron's Call 2 Astera Online Astonia III Astro Empires Astro Lords: Oort CLoud Asura Force Atlantica Online Atriarch Aura Kingdom Aurora Blade Auto Assault Avatar Star Battle Dawn Battle Dawn Galaxies Battle for Graxia Battle of 3 Kingdoms Battle of the Immortals Battlecruiser Online Battlestar Galactica Online Battlestar Reloaded Beyond Protocol Black Aftermath Black Desert Black Gold Black Prophecy Black Prophecy Tactics: Nexus Conflict Blacklight Retribution Blade & Soul Blade Hunter Blade Wars Blazing Throne Bless Blitz 1941 Blood and Jade Bloodlines Champions Boot Hill Heroes Borderlands 2 Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel Bound by Flame Bounty Bay Online Brain Storm Bravada Bravely Default Bravely Second Brawl Busters. Brick-Force Bright Shadow Bullet Run Business Tycoon Online CTRacer Cabal Online Caesary Call of Camelot Call of Gods Call of Thrones Camelot Unchained Canaan Online Cardmon Hero Cartoon Universe CasinoRPG Cast & Conquer Castle Empire Castlot Celtic Heroes Champions Online Champions of Regnum Chaos Online Child of Light Chrono Tales Citadel of Sorcery CitiesXL Citizen Zero City of Decay City of Heroes City of Steam City of Transformers City of Villains Civilization Online Clan Lord Clash of Clans Cloud Nine Club Penguin Colony of War Command & Conquer: Tiberium Alliances Company of Heroes Online Conquer Online Conquer Online 3 Continent of the Ninth (C9) Core Blaze Core Exiles Corum Online Craft of Gods Crimecraft Crimelife 2 Cronous Crota II Crusaders of Solaris Cultures Online Cyber Monster 2 Céiron Wars
D-F
D&D Online DC Universe DK Online DOTA DOTA 2 DUST 514 DV8: Exile Dalethaan Dance Groove Online Dark Age of Camelot Dark Ages Dark Legends Dark Orbit Dark Relic: Prelude Dark Solstice Dark and Light DarkEden Online DarkSpace Darkblood Online Darkest Dungeon Darkfall Darkfall: Unholy Wars Darkwind: War on Wheels Das Tal Dawn of Fantasy Dawntide DayZ Dead Earth Dead Frontier Dead Island Dead Island 2 Dead Island: Riptide Deco Online Deepworld Defiance Deicide Online Dekaron Demons at the Horizon Desert Operations Destiny Diablo 3 Diamonin Digimon Battle Dino Storm Disciple Divergence Divina Divine Souls Divinity: Original Sin Dofus Dominus Online Dragon Age: Inquisition Dragon Ball Online Dragon Born Online Dragon Crusade Dragon Empires Dragon Eternity Dragon Nest Dragon Oath Dragon Pals Dragon Raja Dragon's Call Dragon's Call II Dragon's Prophet DragonSky DragonSoul Dragona Dragonica Dragons and Titans Drakengard 3 Dream of Mirror Online Dreamland Online Dreamlords: The Reawakening Drift City Duels Dungeon Blitz Dungeon Fighter Online Dungeon Overlord Dungeon Party Dungeon Rampage Dungeon Runners Dungeon of the Endless Dynastica Dynasty Warriors Online Dynasty of the Magi EIN (Epicus Incognitus) EVE Online Earth Eternal Earth and Beyond Earthrise Eclipse War Ecol Tactics Online Eden Eternal Edge of Space Einherjar - The Viking's Blood Elder Scrolls Online Eldevin Elf Online Elite: Dangerous Embers of Caerus Emil Chronicle Online Empire Empire & State Empire Craft Empire Universe 3 EmpireQuest Empires of Galldon End of Nations Endless Ages Endless Blue Moon Online Endless Online Entropia Universe EpicDuel Erebus: Travia Reborn Eredan Eternal Blade Eternal Lands Eternal Saga Ether Fields Ether Saga Online Eudemons Online EuroGangster EverEmber Online EverQuest Next EverQuest Online Adventures Evernight Everquest Everquest II Evony Exarch Exorace F.E.A.R. Online Face of Mankind Fairyland Online Fall of Rome Fallen Earth Fallen Sword Fallout Online Family Guy Online Fantage Fantasy Earth Zero Fantasy Realm Online Fantasy Tales Online Fantasy Worlds: Rhynn Faunasphere Faxion Online Fearless Fantasy Ferentus Ferion Fiesta Online Final Fantasy Type-0 HD Final Fantasy XI Final Fantasy XIV Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Firefall Fists of Fu Florensia Flyff Football Manager Live Football Superstars Force of Arms Forge Forsaken World Fortnite Fortuna Forum for Discussion of Everlight Freaky Creatures Free Realms Freesky Online Freeworld Fung Wan Online Furcadia Fury Fusion Fall
G-L
GalaXseeds Galactic Command Online Game of Thrones: Seven Kingdoms Gameglobe Gate To Heavens Gates of Andaron Gatheryn Gauntlet Gekkeiju Online Ghost Online Ghost Recon Online Gladiatus Glitch Global Agenda Global Soccer Gloria Victis Glory of Gods GoGoRacer Goal Line Blitz Gods and Heroes GodsWar Online Golemizer Golf Star GoonZu Online Graal Kingdoms Granado Espada Online Grand Chase Grand Fantasia Grepolis Grimlands Guild Wars Guild Wars 2 Guild Wars Factions Guild Wars Nightfall H1Z1 Habbo Hotel Hailan Rising HaloSphere2 Haven & Hearth Hawken Heart Forth Alicia Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft Helbreath Hellgate Hellgate: London Hello Kitty Online Hero Online Hero Zero Hero's Journey Hero: 108 Online HeroSmash Heroes & Generals Heroes & Legends: Conquerors of Kolhar Heroes in the Sky Heroes of Bestia Heroes of Gaia Heroes of Might and Magic Online Heroes of Thessalonica Heroes of Three Kingdoms Heroes of the Storm Hex Holic Online Hostile Space Hunter Blade Huxley Icewind Dale: Enhanced Edition Illutia Illyriad Immortals USA Imperator Imperian Inferno Legend Infestation: Survivor Stories Infinite Crisis Infinity Infinity Iris Online Iron Grip: Marauders Irth Worlds Island Forge Islands of War Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted Jade Dynasty Jagged Alliance Online Juggernaut Jumpgate Jumpgate Evolution KAL Online Kakele Online Kaos War Karos Online Kartuga Kicks Online King of Kings 3 Kingdom Heroes Kingdom Under Fire II Kingdom of Drakkar Kingory Kings and Legends Kings of the Realm KingsRoad Kitsu Saga Kiwarriors Knight Age Knight Online Knights of Dream City Kothuria Kung Foo! Kunlun Online Kyn L.A.W. LEGO Universe La Tale Land of Chaos Online Landmark Lands of Hope: Phoenix Edition LastChaos League of Angels League of Legends - Clash of Fates Legend of Edda: Vengeance Legend of Golden Plume Legend of Katha Legend of Mir 2 Legend of Mir 3 Legendary Champions Lego Minifigures Online Lichdom: Battlemage Life is Feudal Light of Nova Lime Odyssey Line of Defense Lineage Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance Lineage II Linkrealms Loong Online Lord of the Rings Online Lords Online Lords of the Fallen Lost Saga Lucent Heart Lunia Lusternia: Age of Ascension Luvinia World
M-Q
MU Online Mabinogi Maestia: Rise of Keledus MagiKnights Magic Barrage Magic World Online Manga Fighter MapleStory Martial Heroes Marvel Heroes Marvel Super Hero Squad Online Marvel: Avengers Alliance MechWarrior Online Megaten Meridian 59 : Evolution Merlin MetalMercs Metaplace Metin 2 MicroVolts Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor Midkemia Online Might & Magic Heroes: Kingdoms MilMo Minecraft Mini Fighter Minions of Mirth Ministry of War Monato Esprit Monkey King Online Monkey Quest Monster & Me Monster Madness Online MonsterMMORPG Moonlight Online: Tales of Eternal Blood Moonrise Mordavia Mortal Online Mourning My Lands Myst Online: URU Live Myth Angels Online Myth War Myth War 2 Mytheon Mythic Saga Mythos N.E.O Online NIDA Online Nadirim Naviage: The Power of Capital Navy Field Need for Speed World Nemexia Neo's Land NeoSteam Neocron Nether Neverwinter Nexus: The Kingdom Of The Winds NinjaTrick NosTale Novus Aeterno Oberin Odin Quest Odyssey RPG Ogre Island Omerta 3 Online Boxing Manager Onverse Order & Chaos Online Order of Magic Original Blood Origins Return Origins of Malu Orion's Belt Otherland Forums OverSoul Overkings Oz Online Oz World Pandora Saga Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Panzar Parabellum Parallel Kingdom Parfait Station Path of Exile Pathfinder Online Perfect World Perpetuum Online Persona V Phantasy Star Online 2 Phantasy Star Universe Phoenix Dynasty Online Phylon Pi Story Picaroon Pirate Galaxy Pirate Storm Pirate101 PirateKing Online Pirates of the Burning Sea Pirates of the Caribbean Online Pixie Hollow Planeshift Planet Arkadia Planet Calypso PlanetSide 2 Planetside Planets³ Playboy Manager Pocket Legends Pockie Ninja Pockie Pirates Pockie Saints PoxNora Prime World Prime: Battle for Dominus Priston Tale Priston Tale II Prius Online Project Blackout Project Powder Project Titan Forums Project Wiki Project Zomboid Puzzle Pirates Quest for Infamy Quickhit Football
R-S
R2 Online RAN Online RF Online ROSE Online Rage of 3 Kingdoms Ragnarok Online Ragnarok Online II RaiderZ Rakion Rappelz RappelzSEA Ravenmarch Realm Fighter Realm of the Mad God Realm of the Titans Realms Online Reclamation Red Stone Red War: Edem's Curse Regnum Online Remnant Knights Renaissance Repulse Requiem: Memento Mori Rift RiotZone Rise Rise of Dragonian Era Rise of Empire Rise of the Tycoon Risen 3: Titan Lords Rising of King Risk Your Life Rivality Rockfree Rohan: Blood Feud Role Play Worlds Roll n Rock Roma Victor Romadoria Rosh Online Roto X Rubies of Eventide Ruin Online Rumble Fighter Runes of Magic Runescape Rust Rusty Hearts Ryzom S4 League SAGA SD Gundam Capsule Fighter Online SMITE SUN Sacred 3 Sagramore Salem SaySayGirls Scarlet Blade Scions of Fate Seal Online: Evolution Second Chance Heroes Second Life Secret of the Solstice Seed Serenia Fantasy Seven Seas Saga Seven Souls Online Sevencore Shadow Realms Shadow of Legend Shadowbane Shadowrun Online Shaiya Shards Online Shattered Galaxy Sho Online Shot Online Shroud of the Avatar SideQuest Siege on Stars Sigonyth: Desert Eternity Silkroad Online Skyblade Skyforge SmashMuck Champions Smoo Online Soldier Front Soul Master Soul Order Online Soul of Guardian Space Heroes Universe Sparta: War of Empires Spellcasters Sphere Spiral Knights Spirit Tales Splash Fighters Squad Wars Star Citizen Star Sonata 2 Star Stable Star Supremacy Star Trek Online Star Trek: Infinite Space Star Wars Galaxies Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures Star Wars: The Old Republic StarQuest Online Stargate Worlds Starlight Story Starpires State of Decay SteelWar Online Stone Age 2 Stormfall: Age of War Storybricks Stronghold Kingdoms Styx: Master of Shadows Sudden Attack Supremacy 1914 Supreme Destiny Sword Girls Sword of Destiny: Rise of Aions SwordX Swords of Heavens Swordsman
T-Z
TERA TS Online Tabula Rasa Tactica Online Tales Runner Tales of Fantasy Tales of Pirates Tales of Pirates II Tales of Solaris Talisman Online Tamer Saga Tank Ace Tantra Online Tatsumaki: Land at War Terra Militaris TerraWorld Online Thang Online The 4th Coming The Agency The Aurora World The Banner Saga The Black Watchmen The Chronicle The Chronicles of Spellborn The Crew The Division The Hammers End The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing 2 The Legend of Ares The Lost Titans The Matrix Online The Mighty Quest for Epic Loot The Missing Ink The Mummy Online The Myth of Soma The Pride of Taern The Realm Online The Repopulation The Secret World The Sims Online The Strategems The West The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt Theralon There Therian Saga Thrones of Chaos Tibia Tibia Micro Edition Tiger Knight Titan Siege Titans of Time Toontown Online Top Speed Topia Online Torchlight Total Domination Transformers Universe Transistor Transverse Traveller AR Travia Online Travian Trials of Ascension Tribal Hero Tribal Wars Tribes Universe Trickster Online Trove Troy Online True Fantasy Live Online Turf Battles Twelve Sky Twelve Sky 2 Twilight War Tynon U.B. Funkeys UFO Online URDEAD Online Ultima Forever: Quest for the Avatar Ultima Online Ultima X: Odyssey Ultimate Naruto Ultimate Soccer Boss Uncharted Waters Online Undercover 2: Merc Wars Underlight Unification Wars Universe Online Utopia Valkyrie Sky Vampire Lord Online Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Vanquish Space Vector City Racers Vendetta Online Victory - Age of Racing Vindictus Virtonomics Vis Gladius Visions of Zosimos VoidExpanse Voyage Century Online W.E.L.L. Online WAR (Warhammer Online) WAR2 Glory WYD Global Wakfu War Thunder War of 2012 War of Angels War of Legends War of Mercenaries War of Thrones War of the Immortals WarFlow Waren Story Wargame1942 Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade Warhammer 40K: Dark Millennium Online Warhammer Online: Wrath of Heroes Warkeepers Warrior Epic Wartune Wasteland 2 WebLords Wild West Online WildStar Wind of Luck WindSlayer 2 Wings of Destiny Wish Wizard101 Wizardry Online Wizards and Champions Wonder King Wonderland Online World Golf Tour World of Battles World of Darkness World of Heroes World of Kung Fu World of Pirates World of Speed World of Tanks World of Tanks Generals World of Warcraft World of Warplanes World of Warships World of the Living Dead WorldAlpha Wurm Online Xenoblade Chronicles: X Xenocell Xiah Xsyon Xulu YS Online Yitien ZU Online Zentia Zero Online Zero Online: The Andromeda Crisis Zodiac Online Zombies Ate My Pizza eRepublik

MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » No Trinity, No Tanks, No Thanks

18 Pages First « 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 » Search
356 posts found
  azarhal

Elite Member

Joined: 7/06/09
Posts: 578

2/23/14 5:25:53 PM#281

I think one of the biggest issue here is that people think that Storybricks is just a supped  MMO-scripted-AI when at its core it's closer to what is found in Black&White, The Sims 3 or Bethesda Radiant AI. The purpose is to create a dynamic simulation both in and out of combat where NPCs (monsters included) behaviors are based on Beliefs, Desires and Intentions (BDI in AI theories), not just scripted combat behaviors.

People might want to read this, to see what Storybricks want to achieve. There is also this interview that is interesting, as well as this one. Combat isn't mentioned directly, but EQNext will not have a different AI for combat, it will use Storybricks (mentioned in this interview).

  Allein

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/13
Posts: 924

2/23/14 5:38:05 PM#282
Originally posted by azarhal

I think one of the biggest issue here is that people think that Storybricks is just a supped  MMO-scripted-AI when at its core it's closer to what is found in Black&White, The Sims 3 or Bethesda Radiant AI. The purpose is to create a dynamic simulation both in and out of combat where NPCs (monsters included) behaviors are based on Beliefs, Desires and Intentions (BDI in AI theories), not just scripted combat behaviors.

People might want to read this, to see what Storybricks want to achieve. There is also this interview that is interesting, as well as this one. Combat isn't mentioned directly, but EQNext will not have a different AI for combat, it will use Storybricks (mentioned in this interview).

I think many fall into the mindset that if it hasn't been done before or was done poorly, then it can't be done. Which I can understand, I try not to blindly believe in things, but I totally get where SB and SOE are going, just hope it turns out as great as it sounds.

One quote that I hope isn't just hype to the 10th power is "It’s not that we are doing a better emergent AI than the other MMO. Other MMOs do not have any AI to speak of!" That is a pretty huge statement.

Hopefully EQN, Landmark and whatever SWG-like game they are making take MMOs into uncharted territory. As seen with ESO, Wildstar, and several other WIP, other companies are still trying to churn out the same old things with a fresh coat of paint. We need a shift in the genre into something else. EQN should be a good start.

  timidobserver

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/15/14
Posts: 247

2/23/14 6:17:27 PM#283
Originally posted by azarhal

I think one of the biggest issue here is that people think that Storybricks is just a supped  MMO-scripted-AI when at its core it's closer to what is found in Black&White, The Sims 3 or Bethesda Radiant AI. The purpose is to create a dynamic simulation both in and out of combat where NPCs (monsters included) behaviors are based on Beliefs, Desires and Intentions (BDI in AI theories), not just scripted combat behaviors.

People might want to read this, to see what Storybricks want to achieve. There is also this interview that is interesting, as well as this one. Combat isn't mentioned directly, but EQNext will not have a different AI for combat, it will use Storybricks (mentioned in this interview).

I read the information on Storybricks and it does look intriguing,but it is really kind of off topic for this thread. In fact, I have to think you for posting it, because it made me more interested in EQN.

 

However, Storybricks is more about AI than group combat system. 

  Minsc

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/07/04
Posts: 1281

2/23/14 6:42:06 PM#284
Originally posted by timidobserver
Originally posted by azarhal

I think one of the biggest issue here is that people think that Storybricks is just a supped  MMO-scripted-AI when at its core it's closer to what is found in Black&White, The Sims 3 or Bethesda Radiant AI. The purpose is to create a dynamic simulation both in and out of combat where NPCs (monsters included) behaviors are based on Beliefs, Desires and Intentions (BDI in AI theories), not just scripted combat behaviors.

People might want to read this, to see what Storybricks want to achieve. There is also this interview that is interesting, as well as this one. Combat isn't mentioned directly, but EQNext will not have a different AI for combat, it will use Storybricks (mentioned in this interview).

I read the information on Storybricks and it does look intriguing,but it is really kind of off topic for this thread. In fact, I have to think you for posting it, because it made me more interested in EQN.

 

However, Storybricks is more about AI than group combat system. 

It is relevant as the standard trinity relies on taunts to control mobs and that won't work with advanced AI's like storybricks.

  timidobserver

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/15/14
Posts: 247

2/23/14 6:53:07 PM#285
Originally posted by Minsc
Originally posted by timidobserver
Originally posted by azarhal

I think one of the biggest issue here is that people think that Storybricks is just a supped  MMO-scripted-AI when at its core it's closer to what is found in Black&White, The Sims 3 or Bethesda Radiant AI. The purpose is to create a dynamic simulation both in and out of combat where NPCs (monsters included) behaviors are based on Beliefs, Desires and Intentions (BDI in AI theories), not just scripted combat behaviors.

People might want to read this, to see what Storybricks want to achieve. There is also this interview that is interesting, as well as this one. Combat isn't mentioned directly, but EQNext will not have a different AI for combat, it will use Storybricks (mentioned in this interview).

I read the information on Storybricks and it does look intriguing,but it is really kind of off topic for this thread. In fact, I have to think you for posting it, because it made me more interested in EQN.

 

However, Storybricks is more about AI than group combat system. 

It is relevant as the standard trinity relies on taunts to control mobs and that won't work with advanced AI's like storybricks.

Storybricks seems to be designed to allow better AI options than the typical MMOS offer, but that doesn't necessarily rule out trinity or something similar. Regardless of how you get the attention of the NPC, I am sure that Storybrucks could be set up so that it is possible for one person to specialize their gear and skills toward getting and holding the enemy's attention.

I understand the point that you are trying to make, but this depends entirely on how EQN will leverage the AI in regard to combat. Most of the information you linked is referring to dialog/non-combat interactions, and the impact of actions. 

  azarhal

Elite Member

Joined: 7/06/09
Posts: 578

2/23/14 6:57:53 PM#286
Originally posted by timidobserver
Originally posted by azarhal

I think one of the biggest issue here is that people think that Storybricks is just a supped  MMO-scripted-AI when at its core it's closer to what is found in Black&White, The Sims 3 or Bethesda Radiant AI. The purpose is to create a dynamic simulation both in and out of combat where NPCs (monsters included) behaviors are based on Beliefs, Desires and Intentions (BDI in AI theories), not just scripted combat behaviors.

People might want to read this, to see what Storybricks want to achieve. There is also this interview that is interesting, as well as this one. Combat isn't mentioned directly, but EQNext will not have a different AI for combat, it will use Storybricks (mentioned in this interview).

I read the information on Storybricks and it does look intriguing,but it is really kind of off topic for this thread. In fact, I have to think you for posting it, because it made me more interested in EQN.

However, Storybricks is more about AI than group combat system. 

It is on topic. Storybricks is going to be the AI for combat, group or not, in EQNext. You cannot talk about EQNext group combat system without first understand what Storybricks does to the creature combat AI. SOE claims that the Trinity (as we know it in other MMOs) will not work in EQNext, the reason for that is Storybricks.

Storybricks is what is going to define if a creature avoid this AOE, if they hate a race/classe/etc more than the others and tus attack those player first, if they flee or try to gather backups, if they use special tactics (try to corner players, counter spells, make traps, exploit weakness, ambush). There are no threat list here, only a list of goals to reach for the AI that is affected by the environment, the player classes, the number of players, reputations, creature like/dislike, creature needs and probably creature stats (intelligence, courage, etc).

Add that creatures of the same type are probably not going to be clones with the exact same behavioral patterns (i.e procedurally generated) and you end up with totally different encounters despite meeting that exact same creatures simply because in the earlier group there was one mob who hated elves a lot.

  timidobserver

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/15/14
Posts: 247

2/23/14 8:19:57 PM#287
Originally posted by azarhal
Originally posted by timidobserver
Originally posted by azarhal

I think one of the biggest issue here is that people think that Storybricks is just a supped  MMO-scripted-AI when at its core it's closer to what is found in Black&White, The Sims 3 or Bethesda Radiant AI. The purpose is to create a dynamic simulation both in and out of combat where NPCs (monsters included) behaviors are based on Beliefs, Desires and Intentions (BDI in AI theories), not just scripted combat behaviors.

People might want to read this, to see what Storybricks want to achieve. There is also this interview that is interesting, as well as this one. Combat isn't mentioned directly, but EQNext will not have a different AI for combat, it will use Storybricks (mentioned in this interview).

I read the information on Storybricks and it does look intriguing,but it is really kind of off topic for this thread. In fact, I have to think you for posting it, because it made me more interested in EQN.

However, Storybricks is more about AI than group combat system. 

It is on topic. Storybricks is going to be the AI for combat, group or not, in EQNext. You cannot talk about EQNext group combat system without first understand what Storybricks does to the creature combat AI. SOE claims that the Trinity (as we know it in other MMOs) will not work in EQNext, the reason for that is Storybricks.

Storybricks is what is going to define if a creature avoid this AOE, if they hate a race/classe/etc more than the others and tus attack those player first, if they flee or try to gather backups, if they use special tactics (try to corner players, counter spells, make traps, exploit weakness, ambush). There are no threat list here, only a list of goals to reach for the AI that is affected by the environment, the player classes, the number of players, reputations, creature like/dislike, creature needs and probably creature stats (intelligence, courage, etc).

Add that creatures of the same type are probably not going to be clones with the exact same behavioral patterns (i.e procedurally generated) and you end up with totally different encounters despite meeting that exact same creatures simply because in the earlier group there was one mob who hated elves a lot.

Touche' . If what you are saying is accurate, then you may be right.

I haven't seen anything to indicate that EQN is going to have combat where creature consider that many variable to decide who to attack. Hopefully you are right though. What you are describing does sound like it could be fun. 

  Kyllien

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/13
Posts: 315

2/23/14 9:52:09 PM#288

There seems to be two trains of thought in this discussion.

1. SOE is reducing the effetivness of groups by removing the defined roles.  The game will just be one big zerg fest. No ammount of programming can change that.  There are really only two combat types; Trinity and Zerg.

2. SOE is working on something truly new. Storybricks and Emergent AI will change the way NPCs and MOBs will interact with the player or group.  Combat will be changed significantly.  There will be many different combat types including Trinity and Zerg but also many more.

I for one subscribe to the second train of thought. 

Imagine, your group comes up on a group of Orcs pilliging a farm.  You wizard drops a nuke on the Orcs hitting many of them.  Two of the Orcs the Wizard missed run off in different directions.   The rest of the Orcs spread out to avoid the AOE nukes.  Yoiu tank starts in on the few Orcs closest to him.  The other Orcs immediatly rush you group, most of them ignoring the tank and rushing the wizard.  While your group is busy fighting off the first group of Orc the two that ran off earlier show up with a large group each and proceed to flank your group and finally to kill you.

After your group revives you respec the group to deal with the runners and adds.

  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3343

2/24/14 4:25:03 AM#289
Originally posted by azarhal
Originally posted by timidobserver
Originally posted by azarhal

I think one of the biggest issue here is that people think that Storybricks is just a supped  MMO-scripted-AI when at its core it's closer to what is found in Black&White, The Sims 3 or Bethesda Radiant AI. The purpose is to create a dynamic simulation both in and out of combat where NPCs (monsters included) behaviors are based on Beliefs, Desires and Intentions (BDI in AI theories), not just scripted combat behaviors.

People might want to read this, to see what Storybricks want to achieve. There is also this interview that is interesting, as well as this one. Combat isn't mentioned directly, but EQNext will not have a different AI for combat, it will use Storybricks (mentioned in this interview).

I read the information on Storybricks and it does look intriguing,but it is really kind of off topic for this thread. In fact, I have to think you for posting it, because it made me more interested in EQN.

However, Storybricks is more about AI than group combat system. 

It is on topic. Storybricks is going to be the AI for combat, group or not, in EQNext. You cannot talk about EQNext group combat system without first understand what Storybricks does to the creature combat AI. SOE claims that the Trinity (as we know it in other MMOs) will not work in EQNext, the reason for that is Storybricks. This sounds a lot like GW2.. I'll cover more on this later..

Storybricks is what is going to define if a creature avoid this AOE, if they hate a race/classe/etc more than the others and tus attack those player first, if they flee or try to gather backups, if they use special tactics (try to corner players, counter spells, make traps, exploit weakness, ambush). It all sounds good during a sales pitch, but in reality, you can't have mobs being this OP.  A one on one fight, the player is ok.. but what do you do when it's 2 on 1 or 3 on 1 fight.. The mobs wins 90% of the time, just like PvP.. Most adventures are going to be SOLO in EQN, so you better make sure that 90% of the mobs can be beaten by one person.. There are no threat list here, only a list of goals to reach for the AI that is affected by the environment, the player classes, the number of players, reputations, creature like/dislike, creature needs and probably creature stats (intelligence, courage, etc). All those things you just described is a threat list, renamed.. So a mob HATES Elves.. There is your taunt mechanic.. Same can be said with reputation, classes and whatever else.. ANY mechanic or code that causes that mob to REACT to another player can be considered a taunt.. Get it???

Add that creatures of the same type are probably not going to be clones with the exact same behavioral patterns (i.e procedurally generated) and you end up with totally different encounters despite meeting that exact same creatures simply because in the earlier group there was one mob who hated elves a lot.

So in the end you have random chaos encounters? Like I said, 90% or more of all combat rights will probably be done SOLO, so WHO cares about the AI then..  The trinity and AI is thrown out the door when you are the ONLY person fighting the mob(s)..  What you need to ask yourself, which we don't know, is "how many mobs will be by themselves?"  and "how many will be in small groups of 2 or 3".... Understanding that will let us know more about combat..  If players can jump in and kill multiple mobs solo like GW2, guess what type of combat you end up with when multiple players are grouped together fighting the same 3 mobs?  You get zerg (faceroll) combat..  At least with GW2, in dynamic events if more players are present, the combat AI adjust to it.. I have not heard anything like that with EQN.. 

What I suspect we'll end up with is characters that are pretty much homogenized to play like each other 80% of the time.. If you talk about any type of planned boss encounters, groups will seek out and find ways to "MIN/MAX" characters for the best result.. Guess what?  You are back to trinity (role) combat.. I can see it now, 'Group looking for Plate warrior with X,Y,Z skills"..  Sound familiar?  lol  Again, you are either going to end up with combat that can be controlled BY the players, or you end up with chaos where everyone fends for themselves and has survive a fight when SOLO..

  Kevyne-Shandris

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/08
Posts: 1980

You can't † BURY † ¤¤ Holy Paladins ¤¤ As we will always __.- ASCEND -.__

2/24/14 5:00:28 AM#290
Originally posted by Allein
Originally posted by Rydeson

So basically we have GW2 all over again with Zergfest?  Where everyone has to watch out for themselves when the chaos starts?  BUT just then you responded to another thread saying roles will be there..  So which is it.. ROLES or NO ROLES.. It can't be both..  The only thing I can figure out with all this hokey pokey is that, according to SOE, you can still play the tank even tho it isn't required..... OH.. OK I see..  So when I jump into an encounter were 5 others are playing GW2 Zergfest, I can pretend to be a plate wearing tank and fool myself.. LOL  But my presence probably makes no difference in what the other 5 are doing..  I might as well be invisible as far as they are concerned.. 

GW2 tied that, and it sucks.. LOL   Oh sure I can be a water elementalist and go around pretending to be a healer.. but seriously?  In the end. it's still ZERGFEST.. LOL

PS Edit:  Now don't get me wrong.. I'm all for solobilty and don't mind the GW2 style of soft grouping, and open world boss situations.. I just wish ArenaNet tweaked the class skills a bit, and made some encounters more role dependant..

Why wouldn't people need to watch out for themselves? You really prefer to play a game where you can just whack away carelessly because someone will keep you alive? You seem to take "watch out for self" to mean no teamwork, no support, no communication, just tunnel vision dps. GW2 isn't the foundation of EQN, why would it's problems jump over if the game is being build completely differently from the ground up? 

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't force the horse to drink it".

 

Giving players every Holy Trinity role and ability to do the job teaches them nothing to look out but for #1. Players see this more now when they can be more "self-sufficient", and the rise of the zergs in the process. Before GW2 if a player stood in fire if he didn't outright die, he'll be so close he got his warning. Now? They think it's just funny, because there's no one to blame but themselves (as #1 can never be wrong). -_-

  Kevyne-Shandris

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/08
Posts: 1980

You can't † BURY † ¤¤ Holy Paladins ¤¤ As we will always __.- ASCEND -.__

2/24/14 5:10:23 AM#291
Originally posted by Rydeson
At least with GW2, in dynamic events if more players are present, the combat AI adjust to it.. I have not heard anything like that with EQN.. 

EQN isn't even out to test anyway.

 

But it's GW2 that helped create this mess in the first place, where instead of focusing on content and bug fixes and polish (e.g., fix why the roles aren't sexy enough for players do play them), it gives devs license to not only upset the apple cart, burn it down too.

 

Anytime giving players everything the result is they won't need others, and if they don't need others, why is it even a MMO. Even a soloer in MMOs understands it takes a bit of everything to accomplish something, and not just extra players.

  Xthos

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/18/10
Posts: 2649

2/24/14 5:12:36 AM#292

A reminder, they also talked about having different AI intelligence on a group of mobs, so you will not initially be able to predict what they all will do.  They would react differently, based on where they were on the AI scale.  Then if you have say a archer, mage, cleric, and warrior mobs combined with that, you could get some encounters they play different about every time you fight them.

 

As for the system working or being a failure, we will have to wait and see, I like the trinity myself, but I will not proclaim what the system will be like, when I haven't seen it.  Landmark will be getting combat, but I doubt we will be able to base much, if anything on it for the most part.  Due to items giving some abilities in Landmark, and their are no classes.

  azarhal

Elite Member

Joined: 7/06/09
Posts: 578

2/24/14 7:10:09 AM#293
Originally posted by Rydeson
[skip]

I suggest you read the interviews/blog I linked earlier, especially the last one which is more EQNext-centric. Some of the things you raise as issues are actually covered in there.

  Kyllien

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/13
Posts: 315

2/24/14 8:27:11 AM#294
Originally posted by Rydeson

So in the end you have random chaos encounters? Like I said, 90% or more of all combat rights will probably be done SOLO, so WHO cares about the AI then..  The trinity and AI is thrown out the door when you are the ONLY person fighting the mob(s)..  What you need to ask yourself, which we don't know, is "how many mobs will be by themselves?"  and "how many will be in small groups of 2 or 3".... Understanding that will let us know more about combat..  If players can jump in and kill multiple mobs solo like GW2, guess what type of combat you end up with when multiple players are grouped together fighting the same 3 mobs?  You get zerg (faceroll) combat..  At least with GW2, in dynamic events if more players are present, the combat AI adjust to it.. I have not heard anything like that with EQN.. 

What I suspect we'll end up with is characters that are pretty much homogenized to play like each other 80% of the time.. If you talk about any type of planned boss encounters, groups will seek out and find ways to "MIN/MAX" characters for the best result.. Guess what?  You are back to trinity (role) combat.. I can see it now, 'Group looking for Plate warrior with X,Y,Z skills"..  Sound familiar?  lol  Again, you are either going to end up with combat that can be controlled BY the players, or you end up with chaos where everyone fends for themselves and has survive a fight when SOLO..

You are making an unfounded assumption.  Storybricks will also include AI that will help the MOBs deal with different groups.   In fact I am betting the opposite.  Yes there will be "solo" content.  But with the "intelligence" that the MOBs will have will lean to mobs joining together to deal with the player incursion.

  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3343

2/24/14 3:26:30 PM#295
Huh huh.. just wait and see and I hope many of you keep this threat in mind when EQN combat goes live..  So we can revisit this topic again..  I think many of you are going to be very disappointed on what you think you're going to get, to what you are actually served..  Good Luck tho.. 
  Aeonblades

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/12/12
Posts: 2123

2/24/14 3:28:43 PM#296

I really hope they do include trinity and strategy into EQN. I have almost lost interest in the game if it becomes a DPS meta only type game, as those get really boring really fast for the most part.

I have appealed to SoE on the forums to not make the same mistake a few other newer MMO's have made by not including thought process into their combat. No, the trinity system isn't perfect, but it's a heck of a lot better than stacking DPS and snoozing through every fight in the game.

They want to bank on the success of other games that have done this, and it's plainly just not a good idea. It's one of the reasons why half the servers are dead in GW2, when you create a DPS only meta game, only 1 or 2 classes end up being desired because of an inability to perfectly balance DPS across all classes. It's a huge design mistake that has done nothing but hurt newer releases.

Just my opinion though, it may be a huge success if they nail it, balance wise.

Currently Playing: ESO and FFXIV
Have played: You name it
If you mention rose tinted glasses, you better be referring to Mitch Hedberg.

  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 6744

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

2/24/14 3:37:49 PM#297

OP since the game is miles away from coming out,i wouldn't buy too much into what panels or people say.

A common trend or marketing tactic by developers is to say the politically correct thing or say what they perceive the fan base wants to hear.

IMo it is a MUCH neater and organized way to design your combat if you know exactly what the threshold of the Tank and your dps is.If you design combat focused on not knowing at all what the group will be like or how each player will be playing,then there is ONLY one option,make the combat easy OR tweak it 500x never getting it right.

When i played FFXi for example every last class and bit of damage was VERY carefully calculated.The Tanks provoke allowed for a controlled system that also did not allow anyone the option to spam all out non stop dps with no care or thought on how to play his class  carefully.

You also did not need any Curse.com add-ons to tell you how to play,with a well thought out design,players LEARNED their class very well and would know exactly when and how they would play their player.

A perfect example is a Ranger in FFXI would not open up with a Sidewinder weapon skill,he would die soon after,so he had to learn his timing down and play his player properly with the GROUP atmosphere.

I guess the easiest way to sum up non Trinity is SPAM gaming,just do whatever the heck you want,which of course is unrealistic, in a real combat situation you ALWAYS need some sort of strategy and control.I think just like some think it is cool to say i hate Wow,the new cool thing is  to say "we are the anti trinity game",sorry has nothing to do with being cool,you either have neat organized combat or you don't.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w
Samoan Diamond

  Ender4

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/18/08
Posts: 2094

2/24/14 3:38:54 PM#298


Originally posted by Rydeson
Huh huh.. just wait and see and I hope many of you keep this threat in mind when EQN combat goes live..  So we can revisit this topic again..  I think many of you are going to be very disappointed on what you think you're going to get, to what you are actually served..  Good Luck tho.. 


You may be right but making the attempt at something better is still better than just doing the same old crap so I applaud them either way. The basic trinity system is awful and needs to be replaced by something. GW2 obviously failed with their system, someone eventually will come up with something better.

  Xthos

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/18/10
Posts: 2649

2/24/14 5:21:15 PM#299
Originally posted by Wizardry

OP since the game is miles away from coming out,i wouldn't buy too much into what panels or people say.

A common trend or marketing tactic by developers is to say the politically correct thing or say what they perceive the fan base wants to hear.

IMo it is a MUCH neater and organized way to design your combat if you know exactly what the threshold of the Tank and your dps is.If you design combat focused on not knowing at all what the group will be like or how each player will be playing,then there is ONLY one option,make the combat easy OR tweak it 500x never getting it right.

When i played FFXi for example every last class and bit of damage was VERY carefully calculated.The Tanks provoke allowed for a controlled system that also did not allow anyone the option to spam all out non stop dps with no care or thought on how to play his class  carefully.

You also did not need any Curse.com add-ons to tell you how to play,with a well thought out design,players LEARNED their class very well and would know exactly when and how they would play their player.

A perfect example is a Ranger in FFXI would not open up with a Sidewinder weapon skill,he would die soon after,so he had to learn his timing down and play his player properly with the GROUP atmosphere.

I guess the easiest way to sum up non Trinity is SPAM gaming,just do whatever the heck you want,which of course is unrealistic, in a real combat situation you ALWAYS need some sort of strategy and control.I think just like some think it is cool to say i hate Wow,the new cool thing is  to say "we are the anti trinity game",sorry has nothing to do with being cool,you either have neat organized combat or you don't.

 So it is better to ignore the devs/panel, and just assume that it will be suck/spam combat, sight unseen?  It may suck, but people in this thread assume it will suck...  If it sucks, it sucks, I like the trinity, I don't like weapon based skills, I like more skill/spell options, but I cannot tell you it is going to suck, or be good with almost certainty that a lot of people in this thread are using.

  timidobserver

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/15/14
Posts: 247

2/24/14 5:35:22 PM#300
Originally posted by Aeonblades

I really hope they do include trinity and strategy into EQN. I have almost lost interest in the game if it becomes a DPS meta only type game, as those get really boring really fast for the most part.

I have appealed to SoE on the forums to not make the same mistake a few other newer MMO's have made by not including thought process into their combat. No, the trinity system isn't perfect, but it's a heck of a lot better than stacking DPS and snoozing through every fight in the game.

They want to bank on the success of other games that have done this, and it's plainly just not a good idea. It's one of the reasons why half the servers are dead in GW2, when you create a DPS only meta game, only 1 or 2 classes end up being desired because of an inability to perfectly balance DPS across all classes. It's a huge design mistake that has done nothing but hurt newer releases.

Just my opinion though, it may be a huge success if they nail it, balance wise.

This describes my feelings perfectly. I am not necessarily a Trinity fan. Instead, I am a DPS Meta only enemy. EQN doesn't necessarily have to use classical WoW Trinity to satisfy me or anything even similar to it, but I definitely want something that diverges from the DPS Meta only thing that GW2 has going on. It needs to be something to brings strategy back into combat.  It's why I only play WvW. I cannot tolerate going into the Zerker Faceroll fest that GW2 PVE is.

The hilarious part to me is that proponents of the GW2 Combat system seem to think it is more difficult/challenging than trinity. While Trinity isn't exactly rocket science, 99% of GW2 is highly casual friendly and easy enough to just randomly button mash your way to success. It is by far the easiest MMO I've ever played. It took them more than a year to introduce a single challenging piece of content into the game(the wurms), and the majority of the challenge to the wurms is how buggy they are. 

18 Pages First « 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 » Search