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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » No Trinity, No Tanks, No Thanks

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356 posts found
  drkoracle

Novice Member

Joined: 6/21/09
Posts: 122

 
OP  1/29/14 5:07:06 PM#1

If you haven't seen it yet and are interested in the game go and have a quick look at the Class Panel Video.

Part 1

Part 2

Once they get to the Q&A section you will notice a large amount of the questions are the same thing that made me go WTF, they are ditching the Trinity System and instead going with a GW2 like build. Personally I much prefer structured play, I don't have any qualms about multi-class characters or not needing alts but there is no way I am going trough another GW2 or NWO style dungeon run where everyone zergs in, some may like it but not for me.

They say that they have "systems in place" to make sure any group can complete content no matter there make up, all this translates to in my opinion and experience is  people who want to play the two support roles "tank & healer" will be snubbed for another dps, because whether you can complete content with a balanced group or not, you can complete it faster with 5 people in full dps mode.

The trinity system has it's flaws granted but I believe it is still superior to the system that they are planning to implement, I still want to try the game, but after hearing the same PR bull from the GW2 team I am more than a little sceptical that this game will cater to it's intended market

 

  Latronus

Novice Member

Joined: 1/10/08
Posts: 718

PC is not political correctness, it means Political Cowardice!

1/29/14 6:36:32 PM#2
Originally posted by drkoracle

If you haven't seen it yet and are interested in the game go and have a quick look at the Class Panel Video.

Part 1

Part 2

Once they get to the Q&A section you will notice a large amount of the questions are the same thing that made me go WTF, they are ditching the Trinity System and instead going with a GW2 like build. Personally I much prefer structured play, I don't have any qualms about multi-class characters or not needing alts but there is no way I am going trough another GW2 or NWO style dungeon run where everyone zergs in, some may like it but not for me.

They say that they have "systems in place" to make sure any group can complete content no matter there make up, all this translates to in my opinion and experience is  people who want to play the two support roles "tank & healer" will be snubbed for another dps, because whether you can complete content with a balanced group or not, you can complete it faster with 5 people in full dps mode.

The trinity system has it's flaws granted but I believe it is still superior to the system that they are planning to implement, I still want to try the game, but after hearing the same PR bull from the GW2 team I am more than a little sceptical that this game will cater to it's intended market

 

Well, GW2 didn't do the no trinity combat system well at all, at least in my opinion anyway.  That being said, the trinity is old, outdated, and nothing more than a lazy developers dream.  It was developed because technology wouldn't support intelligent AI but now it "should" be doable.   Besides, real combat is chaos and why in god's green earth would you attack a big armored buffoon that couldn't kill a swamp rat by himself over a leather wearing back stabber that could one shot you or a dress and pointy hat wearing caster that could nuke your ass before you turned your attention to the guy insulting your momma?  You wouldn't so why do support that kind of system?   It's because it's easy, convenient, and that's the way we've always done it.

All that being said, you don't like the direction $OE is going? No worries, no one likes every game.  Wait for something more your style or play something that's a better fit.

  sk8chalif

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/18/10
Posts: 591

1/29/14 6:40:44 PM#3
Originally posted by Latronus
Originally posted by drkoracle

If you haven't seen it yet and are interested in the game go and have a quick look at the Class Panel Video.

Part 1

Part 2

Once they get to the Q&A section you will notice a large amount of the questions are the same thing that made me go WTF, they are ditching the Trinity System and instead going with a GW2 like build. Personally I much prefer structured play, I don't have any qualms about multi-class characters or not needing alts but there is no way I am going trough another GW2 or NWO style dungeon run where everyone zergs in, some may like it but not for me.

They say that they have "systems in place" to make sure any group can complete content no matter there make up, all this translates to in my opinion and experience is  people who want to play the two support roles "tank & healer" will be snubbed for another dps, because whether you can complete content with a balanced group or not, you can complete it faster with 5 people in full dps mode.

The trinity system has it's flaws granted but I believe it is still superior to the system that they are planning to implement, I still want to try the game, but after hearing the same PR bull from the GW2 team I am more than a little sceptical that this game will cater to it's intended market

 

Well, GW2 didn't do the no trinity combat system well at all, at least in my opinion anyway.  That being said, the trinity is old, outdated, and nothing more than a lazy developers dream.  It was developed because technology wouldn't support intelligent AI but now it "should" be doable.   Besides, real combat is chaos and why in god's green earth would you attack a big armored buffoon that couldn't kill a swamp rat by himself over a leather wearing back stabber that could one shot you or a dress and pointy hat wearing caster that could nuke your ass before you turned your attention to the guy insulting your momma?  You wouldn't so why do support that kind of system?   It's because it's easy, convenient, and that's the way we've always done it.

All that being said, you don't like the direction $OE is going? No worries, no one likes every game.  Wait for something more your style or play something that's a better fit.

Amen


~The only opinion that matters is your own.Everything else is just advice,~

  Rusque

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/08/10
Posts: 1650

1/29/14 6:43:57 PM#4
Amusingly enough, ESO's soft trinity is pretty appealing.
  Enrif

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/06/13
Posts: 137

1/29/14 6:45:43 PM#5
Originally posted by drkoracle

If you haven't seen it yet and are interested in the game go and have a quick look at the Class Panel Video.

Part 1

Part 2

Once they get to the Q&A section you will notice a large amount of the questions are the same thing that made me go WTF, they are ditching the Trinity System and instead going with a GW2 like build. Personally I much prefer structured play, I don't have any qualms about multi-class characters or not needing alts but there is no way I am going trough another GW2 or NWO style dungeon run where everyone zergs in, some may like it but not for me.

They say that they have "systems in place" to make sure any group can complete content no matter there make up, all this translates to in my opinion and experience is  people who want to play the two support roles "tank & healer" will be snubbed for another dps, because whether you can complete content with a balanced group or not, you can complete it faster with 5 people in full dps mode.

The trinity system has it's flaws granted but I believe it is still superior to the system that they are planning to implement, I still want to try the game, but after hearing the same PR bull from the GW2 team I am more than a little sceptical that this game will cater to it's intended market

 

Stop complaining. They already confirmed long ago it will be more like MOBA game roles then the classical ones. Instead of Tank/Heal/DPS you get Durables/Nuker/Supporter/Jungler/Disabler/Carry/Pusher/Escaper etc.

[mod edit]

  RebelScum99

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/26/12
Posts: 1127

1/29/14 6:46:58 PM#6

Pretty much my feeling as well.  Having no trinity is one of the worst ideas any developer could have come up with.  And ArenaNet horribly botched it.  I'm going to give SOE the benefit of the doubt for now, however, and hope that they can find a way to make it work.  I'm skeptical, but will withhold judgment until I see more.  

My feeling has always been that the trinity system can be improved by re-working aggro tables for mobs, making boss fights more complex, and bringing crowd control back into the mix as a viable mechanic for classes.  But eliminating the trinity altogether seems unnecessary, and truth be told, downright lazy on the part of the devs. 

  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4405

1/29/14 6:48:35 PM#7

I'm going to wait and see how it plays before I decide if it's good or bad. It's going to be f2p so I risk nothing doing so.

If it ends up like GW2 and everything is just a rez zerg I'll pass on the game. If it actually has some type of trinity mechanic even a soft one and it's fun, I'll continue to play and probably sub if it has the option.

People are like cats. When they die, you get a new one.

  Rhoklaw

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/12/04
Posts: 2978

$500 Backer to 2014's Top New MMO... The Repopulation!

1/29/14 6:58:40 PM#8
Originally posted by Enrif
Originally posted by drkoracle

If you haven't seen it yet and are interested in the game go and have a quick look at the Class Panel Video.

Part 1

Part 2

Once they get to the Q&A section you will notice a large amount of the questions are the same thing that made me go WTF, they are ditching the Trinity System and instead going with a GW2 like build. Personally I much prefer structured play, I don't have any qualms about multi-class characters or not needing alts but there is no way I am going trough another GW2 or NWO style dungeon run where everyone zergs in, some may like it but not for me.

They say that they have "systems in place" to make sure any group can complete content no matter there make up, all this translates to in my opinion and experience is  people who want to play the two support roles "tank & healer" will be snubbed for another dps, because whether you can complete content with a balanced group or not, you can complete it faster with 5 people in full dps mode.

The trinity system has it's flaws granted but I believe it is still superior to the system that they are planning to implement, I still want to try the game, but after hearing the same PR bull from the GW2 team I am more than a little sceptical that this game will cater to it's intended market

 

Stop complaining. They already confirmed long ago it will be more like MOBA game roles then the classical ones. Instead of Tank/Heal/DPS you get Durables/Nuker/Supporter/Jungler/Disabler/Carry/Pusher/Escaper etc.

[mod edit]

First off the trinity system isn't broken, it promoted grouping which is what MMO's were designed for, grouping. The whole idea behind people wanting to solo in an MMO is about as daft an approach to game development as a non trinity system. Sure, maybe people got tired of LFG because there wasn't a tank or healer around, but heaven forbid you actually do something besides raid the same fucking dungeon 73 times. See, back in the day you so eloquently pointed out the trinity system hails from, we actually had more to do than grind for gear. Theres a place for every style of gaming, but as far as I'm concerned, GW2 non trinity system flopped, which is why you are seeing changes in skill sets that actually lets guardians and warriors tank and healers heal. Go figure.

  Rogosh

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/25/06
Posts: 165

1/29/14 6:59:35 PM#9
In EQN the AI is supposed to be to smart to just stand there and beat on 1 person, thanks to Story Bricks. If implemented the way they say it will , wont need a trinity but you will need people that control npcs and defend others. I for one have moved past the ESOs and wildstars and am looking forward to more non-quest hub games.

"Its better to look ugly and win than pretty and lose"

  Abuz0r

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/03/12
Posts: 292

1/29/14 7:00:26 PM#10
Excellent topic name, well played.  And I agree.
  Nadia

Elite Member

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11303

1/29/14 7:07:40 PM#11
Originally posted by drkoracle

If you haven't seen it yet and are interested in the game go and have a quick look at the Class Panel Video.

those are the class videos from SOE Live in Aug 2013

 

this topic was discussed 6 months ago

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/394199/Column-EverQuest-Next-Class-Roles-Are-A-Riot.html

 

  Tinea

Novice Member

Joined: 7/27/03
Posts: 67

1/29/14 7:09:47 PM#12
Originally posted by Latronus

Well, GW2 didn't do the no trinity combat system well at all, at least in my opinion anyway.  That being said, the trinity is old, outdated, and nothing more than a lazy developers dream.  It was developed because technology wouldn't support intelligent AI but now it "should" be doable.   Besides, real combat is chaos and why in god's green earth would you attack a big armored buffoon that couldn't kill a swamp rat by himself over a leather wearing back stabber that could one shot you or a dress and pointy hat wearing caster that could nuke your ass before you turned your attention to the guy insulting your momma?  You wouldn't so why do support that kind of system?   It's because it's easy, convenient, and that's the way we've always done it.

All that being said, you don't like the direction $OE is going? No worries, no one likes every game.  Wait for something more your style or play something that's a better fit.

Nice post and I agree completely.  Just because people believe GW2's no trinity design "failed" doesn't mean it shouldn't be attempted again or built upon.

  Nadia

Elite Member

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11303

1/29/14 7:12:45 PM#13

Guild Wars 1 had no taunt but classes still had roles - and healers existed

i liked the GW1 system

  goboygo

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/02/13
Posts: 319

1/29/14 7:52:42 PM#14

This game is just clone wars zerg all over again.  There will be no opportunity to shine in system like this, GW2 was the same way, everyone was "equal" in a dungeon and did the same thing as the next guy.

Boring.

  Mavolence

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/22/05
Posts: 231

1/29/14 8:28:45 PM#15
Not this shit again. This site has just devolved into a horrid landfill with both moderators and posters. I don't really have the motivation to post the same broken record shit in forums anymore but i'll just say that i can't be happier that the traditional restriction to classes not being able to dual/multi class or cross train is over. I would rather have my freedom than be restricted to playing a class only like everyone else and the way i'm told.
  Omali

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/16/09
Posts: 1093

1/29/14 10:55:46 PM#16

It's the old one-two punch. A developer announces an MMO with the holy trinity, and you get people whining that the game doesn't break new ground. Another developer announces a game that ditches the holy trinity, and you get the other half whining that the game doesn't stay on the beaten path.

No one ever stops to think "maybe I'm not the demographic for this game."

  Tarblood

Elite Member

Joined: 1/23/08
Posts: 55

Holy **** CUPCAKE! You leveled up!

1/29/14 11:04:32 PM#17
Originally posted by Omali

It's the old one-two punch. A developer announces an MMO with the holy trinity, and you get people whining that the game doesn't break new ground. Another developer announces a game that ditches the holy trinity, and you get the other half whining that the game doesn't stay on the beaten path.

No one ever stops to think "maybe I'm not the demographic for this game."

A.

Fudgen.

Men.

 

Time to get my Marine Corps 6 pack back.

  GeezerGamer

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/12
Posts: 4453

It's a combination of Nightingale Armor with the Mod Truebound Deadric Armors

1/29/14 11:05:47 PM#18
Originally posted by DamonVile

I'm going to wait and see how it plays before I decide if it's good or bad. It's going to be f2p so I risk nothing doing so.

If it ends up like GW2 and everything is just a rez zerg I'll pass on the game. If it actually has some type of trinity mechanic even a soft one and it's fun, I'll continue to play and probably sub if it has the option.

Pretty much how I feel about it.

Wait and see.

I feel that the state of the genre is such that a total and complete failure is needed so it can be reborn anew.
I'm actually hoping this new generation of 8 button MMOs will make that happen.

  Kevyne-Shandris

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/08
Posts: 1980

You can't † BURY † ¤¤ Holy Paladins ¤¤ As we will always __.- ASCEND -.__

1/29/14 11:12:17 PM#19
Originally posted by Enrif
Stop complaining. They already confirmed long ago it will be more like MOBA game roles then the classical ones. Instead of Tank/Heal/DPS you get Durables/Nuker/Supporter/Jungler/Disabler/Carry/Pusher/Escaper etc.

If you cant get this in your brain your not ready for the next Gen of MMOs and can stay with the old stuff done the last 15 years.

They also said long ago the characters wouldn't look like they do now, too.

 

The thing is this is an established MMO and changing it's formula mid-stream isn't going to sell well for those who played EQ and EQII. That's their fanbase.

 

So this will ensure those in EQ and EQII will remain where they are, since the concept is too foreign.

 

I remember mentoring some EQ players in EQII, they couldn't even get past level 15 content before running back to EQ again. Play a game so long, they won't move away from what they know and like. EQN is made for those who never played EQ or EQII, and the WoW players are getting substantial new goodies in WoD to want to move.

 

An updated EQII would've been nice. :'(

  Allein

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/13
Posts: 793

1/29/14 11:24:40 PM#20

Really can't wrap my head around why people don't understand what they are doing. They haven't been to clear and the details are a bit scattered, but still it is fairly obvious.

There are more options then just Trinity (EQ/WoW) and Zerg DPS (GW2). I'm not sure if people just have lack of experience or what, but take any mmorpg with PVP and look at how it runs.

There are still clearly defined roles that work perfectly without taunt, threat meters, and other hand-holding features while still enforcing teamwork, communication, and strategy.

Sure there are situations in any game where DPS is the quickest and easiest route, but unless that is how the game was designed (GW2), it shouldn't be the norm.

If you add in any sort of reactive-"smart" AI or mechanics that throw curve balls, a rounded team is needed. Maybe you don't need a "dedicated" healer every single encounter, doesn't mean they are garbage. With 40+ classes, they have endless possibilities on how to get creative with content.

They don't flat out give details, but they've also mentioned that you can "try" anything, doesn't mean you will succeed, at least not easily. Unlike EQ/WoW, if you didn't show up with XYZ, don't show up at all.

While we have very little context to go by and just a few details, there is nothing to draw the conclusion that EQN = GW2 or mindless DPS zerging.

GW2 class system is nothing like EQN's. The AI system won't be the same. Combat system won't be the same. Etc. Etc.

I'm sorry that some people have to rely on crappy mechanics like taunt and "dedicated" whatever, but it is a outdated system that many are more than happy to be rid of.

If you can't see the potential and think outside the box of a very few ways that games have done it in the past, that's too bad.

They aren't trying to make EQ3 or GW3 or copy what has been done before. If you can't handle it, oh well, your loss.

Pantheon is dedicated to those stuck in the past and looking at the KS, that doesn't seem to be as many willing to throw money at the game as there are stomping their feet on every new game to be announced. You asked for it, there ya go.

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