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General Discussion  » I guess sub. based games truly are dead

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182 posts found
  CazNeerg

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/04
Posts: 2220

"So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb." Dark Helmet

1/30/14 12:54:04 AM#81
Originally posted by iridescence
Originally posted by CazNeerg 

It's only "cutting out" if they intended to include the Imperial even if there were no collector's edition.  Otherwise it is content specifically produced as a special edition bonus, with the intent to gain added revenue.

I honestly don't see the difference beyond extreme hair-splitting   but if you want to tell yourself that that makes the practice better then that's your choice to make I guess.  

Really?  You honestly don't see any difference between charging extra for something that was only put into the game because they planned to charge extra, and charging extra for something that was always going to be put in?

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

  User Deleted
1/30/14 1:00:34 AM#82
Originally posted by CazNeerg
Originally posted by iridescence
Originally posted by CazNeerg 

It's only "cutting out" if they intended to include the Imperial even if there were no collector's edition.  Otherwise it is content specifically produced as a special edition bonus, with the intent to gain added revenue.

I honestly don't see the difference beyond extreme hair-splitting   but if you want to tell yourself that that makes the practice better then that's your choice to make I guess.  

Really?  You honestly don't see any difference between charging extra for something that was only put into the game because they planned to charge extra, and charging extra for something that was always going to be put in?

What if Imperial unlocks after finishing the main story line for all players and its just early access to the race?

  Kevyne-Shandris

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/08
Posts: 1980

You can't † BURY † ¤¤ Holy Paladins ¤¤ As we will always __.- ASCEND -.__

1/30/14 1:01:44 AM#83
Originally posted by CazNeerg

Originally posted by iridescence

Let me know when WoW adds racial unlocks to their cash shop...

 They can charge what they like but I don't have to buy it or like it :). Basic economics, if you raise the price of something too high you actually start to make less money. 

If they release an expansion that includes a race which can only be played by those play the expansion, that is the equivalent of a racial unlock in a cash shop.

^^^This.

 

And it's the Imperial at that. -_-

  iridescence

Elite Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1294

1/30/14 2:15:55 AM#84
Originally posted by CazNeerg
 

Really?  You honestly don't see any difference between charging extra for something that was only put into the game because they planned to charge extra, and charging extra for something that was always going to be put in?

Well if you really think they were like "Guys, we just can't afford to make an extra race" and then someone was like "Oh why don't we charge for it in the collector's edition" then OK I see the difference. But I flat out don't believe that in a game with this budget. It isn't like we're talking about a stretch goal in a Kickstarter here.

 

I really think that Imperials would've been in the game no matter what but somebody just decided to use them as an incentive to get more CE orders. Same with the any race can be in any faction. There's no reason that shouldn't be free except that they can get away with charging for it.

 

Actually I think as a fan of the game you should hope I'm right because if their budget it so tight they had to do it just to raise money for another race the game has a whole different set of other financial troubles.

 

  CazNeerg

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/04
Posts: 2220

"So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb." Dark Helmet

1/30/14 2:36:29 AM#85
Originally posted by iridescence

Well if you really think they were like "Guys, we just can't afford to make an extra race" and then someone was like "Oh why don't we charge for it in the collector's edition" then OK I see the difference. But I flat out don't believe that in a game with this budget. It isn't like we're talking about a stretch goal in a Kickstarter here. 

I really think that Imperials would've been in the game no matter what but somebody just decided to use them as an incentive to get more CE orders. Same with the any race can be in any faction. There's no reason that shouldn't be free except that they can get away with charging for it. 

Actually I think as a fan of the game you should hope I'm right because if their budget it so tight they had to do it just to raise money for another race the game has a whole different set of other financial troubles. 

I actually wasn't arguing that they are charging for it because they can't afford not to.  I'm arguing that it's possible they only bothered to make the *effort* because of the idea of including it with the collector's edition for an additional fee.  They may have simply not bothered if not for that financial incentive.

More than commenting on this specific example, I was trying to make a point about additional cost content generally.  So many people automatically assume that anything with an extra charge is something that would have been in the game even without the extra charge, and which is somehow being "removed" and then sold separately.  That isn't necessarily a rational categorical assumption to make.  It's entirely possible that most such content only exists because companies know they can charge for it.  And, personally, if given the choice between more content availability and less content availability, I choose more, no matter what revenue mechanism is attached to it.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

  Telil

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/07/09
Posts: 271

1/30/14 2:40:45 AM#86

What a waste of time of a thread!

You want to put that sub based games are dead. so you choose to start it in a htread belonging to a brand new big money sub based gmae that is close to release?

Yes i know there is more behind this point, so title it correctly.

Collectors editions are not a new thing, they have been going on for over a decade and always offer free stuff to the people that are willing to pay for it. Some games have trivial items that dont affect gameplay while others have head starts etc. and others may offer items/classes and other things that may affect gameplay. This is no different.

  asrlohz

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/29/11
Posts: 664

Alea iacta est, beloved Doomsayers.

1/30/14 2:53:22 AM#87
Originally posted by deakon
Originally posted by muffins89
collectors editions have been giving exclusive digital content for a decade.

This

 

The only "bad" or "unusual" thing here is having the race exclusive to CE owners, but tbh I expect them to open that up to the rest of us eventually, it will either be a prestige class rewarded for completing the 50+ and the 50++ content, or (and I hope they dont go this route) a small micro-transaction (they did say services like race/name change)

Actually, you will have to upgrade your standard version to a Digital CE if you want the extra race, á la SWTOR. I'll still probably play TESO but they're making it really hard for me to make that decision. I'll wait for their reaction about this whole affair.

  asrlohz

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/29/11
Posts: 664

Alea iacta est, beloved Doomsayers.

1/30/14 2:57:37 AM#88
Originally posted by Kevyne-Shandris
Originally posted by CazNeerg

Originally posted by iridescence

Let me know when WoW adds racial unlocks to their cash shop...

 They can charge what they like but I don't have to buy it or like it :). Basic economics, if you raise the price of something too high you actually start to make less money. 

If they release an expansion that includes a race which can only be played by those play the expansion, that is the equivalent of a racial unlock in a cash shop.

^^^This.

 

And it's the Imperial at that. -_-

Sure, but that "Racial unlock" isn't an expansion. It doesn't grant you any new content other than that race yet it is still almost half the price of an expansion.

 

The box game should launch with everything except some exclusive, limited fluff for the CE edition. Don't let people pay for convenience, that belongs in F2P games. Don't give the horse away for free, let them still have to grind up to get it. All they'll receive is a white horse. Don't allow anything other than the crafting style of the Imperial armour into the game. That's something interesting and unique, let the CE exclusive have that. And don't change the whole nature of the game before launch as if it were in expansion. Again, it's not.

  CazNeerg

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/04
Posts: 2220

"So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb." Dark Helmet

1/30/14 3:01:25 AM#89
Originally posted by asrlohz

Sure, but that "Racial unlock" isn't an expansion. It doesn't grant you any new content other than that race yet it is still almost half the price of an expansion. 

The box game should launch with everything except some exclusive, limited fluff for the CE edition. Don't let people pay for convenience, that belongs in F2P games. Don't give the horse away for free, let them still have to grind up to get it. All they'll receive is a white horse. Don't allow anything other than the crafting style of the Imperial armour into the game. That's something interesting and unique, let the CE exclusive have that. And don't change the whole nature of the game before launch as if it were in expansion. Again, it's not.

"Change the whole nature of the game" is quite an exaggeration.  And you don't just get the race, you get the horse, the rings, the ability to convert any piece of armor to the Imperial style.  Pretty decent value for only twenty bucks.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

  asrlohz

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/29/11
Posts: 664

Alea iacta est, beloved Doomsayers.

1/30/14 3:07:58 AM#90
Originally posted by CazNeerg
Originally posted by asrlohz

Sure, but that "Racial unlock" isn't an expansion. It doesn't grant you any new content other than that race yet it is still almost half the price of an expansion. 

The box game should launch with everything except some exclusive, limited fluff for the CE edition. Don't let people pay for convenience, that belongs in F2P games. Don't give the horse away for free, let them still have to grind up to get it. All they'll receive is a white horse. Don't allow anything other than the crafting style of the Imperial armour into the game. That's something interesting and unique, let the CE exclusive have that. And don't change the whole nature of the game before launch as if it were in expansion. Again, it's not.

"Change the whole nature of the game" is quite an exaggeration.  And you don't just get the race, you get the horse, the rings, the ability to convert any piece of armor to the Imperial style.  Pretty decent value for only twenty bucks.

Yes, and allows you to play with any race in any faction. It ruins the storyline already written for the game. We've had this discussion before.

It's essentially a cashshop too, it was meant to contain all the content in the game for the price of a sub. But allowing every noob out there to look badass in an imperial armour from level one kind of ruins the point of it. That belongs in a F2P game, and you know it.

  Entinerint

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/06/12
Posts: 717

1/30/14 3:27:41 AM#91
Originally posted by asrlohz
Originally posted by CazNeerg
Originally posted by asrlohz

Sure, but that "Racial unlock" isn't an expansion. It doesn't grant you any new content other than that race yet it is still almost half the price of an expansion. 

The box game should launch with everything except some exclusive, limited fluff for the CE edition. Don't let people pay for convenience, that belongs in F2P games. Don't give the horse away for free, let them still have to grind up to get it. All they'll receive is a white horse. Don't allow anything other than the crafting style of the Imperial armour into the game. That's something interesting and unique, let the CE exclusive have that. And don't change the whole nature of the game before launch as if it were in expansion. Again, it's not.

"Change the whole nature of the game" is quite an exaggeration.  And you don't just get the race, you get the horse, the rings, the ability to convert any piece of armor to the Imperial style.  Pretty decent value for only twenty bucks.

Yes, and allows you to play with any race in any faction. It ruins the storyline already written for the game. We've had this discussion before.

It's essentially a cashshop too, it was meant to contain all the content in the game for the price of a sub. But allowing every noob out there to look badass in an imperial armour from level one kind of ruins the point of it. That belongs in a F2P game, and you know it.

Guess you haven't read the "storyline" for the game since the alliances have nothing to do with races, and all to do with allied governments and political ideology.

 

This isn't DAOC 2 this is TES the MMO.

  CazNeerg

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/04
Posts: 2220

"So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb." Dark Helmet

1/30/14 3:30:10 AM#92
Originally posted by asrlohz

Yes, and allows you to play with any race in any faction. It ruins the storyline already written for the game. We've had this discussion before.

It's essentially a cashshop too, it was meant to contain all the content in the game for the price of a sub. But allowing every noob out there to look badass in an imperial armour from level one kind of ruins the point of it. That belongs in a F2P game, and you know it.

It doesn't ruin the storyline.  There is no narrative reason that members of any race couldn't be in any faction.  The factions are geo-political, not ethnic.  We don't know that the look for Imperial armor that can be worn at level 1 will be any more "badass" than any other style available at level 1, that is just an assumption.  "Meant to contain all the content in the game for the price of  a sub." How did you determine that meaning?  

Name one collector's edition that didn't include *something* that people couldn't get without paying.  Are you just categorically opposed to a collector's edition offering any in game bonuses, or are some ok, and others not?  If some are ok, why are they ok?  It's all "content."  If you are just categorically opposed to any kind of content ever being offered outside what is covered by the subscription, I understand.  I don't agree, but I understand.  I don't think the future looks bright for you in that case though, companies seem to have realized that relying solely on a sub is, in the long term, just bad business.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

  Tindale111

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/21/12
Posts: 188

1/30/14 3:38:28 AM#93
so the standard is £50 and collectors is £70 personally I think they should have charged £60 and given everyone the same .but its their buissness model if you don't like it don't buy it simple really . I will be paying the £70 may never even play an imperial love the game and im glad its subscription because tho you may get less people the subscribers are the ones that really want the game to work and don't bitch so much .I know prob get shot down in flames for saying this but I really don't care fed up with all the whining on the forums most of you guys are very depressing or very angry people
  asrlohz

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/29/11
Posts: 664

Alea iacta est, beloved Doomsayers.

1/30/14 3:55:33 AM#94
Originally posted by CazNeerg
Originally posted by asrlohz

Yes, and allows you to play with any race in any faction. It ruins the storyline already written for the game. We've had this discussion before.

It's essentially a cashshop too, it was meant to contain all the content in the game for the price of a sub. But allowing every noob out there to look badass in an imperial armour from level one kind of ruins the point of it. That belongs in a F2P game, and you know it.

It doesn't ruin the storyline.  There is no narrative reason that members of any race couldn't be in any faction.  The factions are geo-political, not ethnic.  We don't know that the look for Imperial armor that can be worn at level 1 will be any more "badass" than any other style available at level 1, that is just an assumption.  "Meant to contain all the content in the game for the price of  a sub." How did you determine that meaning?  

Name one collector's edition that didn't include *something* that people couldn't get without paying.  Are you just categorically opposed to a collector's edition offering any in game bonuses, or are some ok, and others not?  If some are ok, why are they ok?  It's all "content."  If you are just categorically opposed to any kind of content ever being offered outside what is covered by the subscription, I understand.  I don't agree, but I understand.  I don't think the future looks bright for you in that case though, companies seem to have realized that relying solely on a sub is, in the long term, just bad business.

They are ethnic. Just look here. It's the daggerfall covenant talking about the other races. And all the other factions do the same.

And for example, one of the quests I managed to play in Cologne contained an Argonian in the Aldmeri Dominion whom my Wood Elf was confused to find there. The only response I had was "What's an Argonian doing outside of The Ebonheart Pack". She replied that she didn't follow the pack. So if I play an Argonian my character would still be surprised. Then there are quests where you interact with Queen Ayrenn too. Why should she trust the enemies?

 

Regarding the gear switching mechanic, look here. You can clearly see a low level character with shit gear being transformed into the "badass" looking gear.

And about the CE, it's not that it includes extra stuff, it's that it isn't exclusive. Anyone can buy it even if they only purchase the standard edition. So they can just upgrade their version of the game and get access to all that stuff. Just like how you would purchase a cool skin for your armour in a cash shop. Purchasing the physical Imperial Edition doesn't grant you anything exclusive other than the physical items.

If you join TESO a year from now, you can just pay $20 and get the same content the CE people got. So it's like the cashshop in Guildwars 2 where you could purchase gear skins.

 

 

And the reason to why subs don't work longterm is because game companies are doing "this" to their fanbase. They're allowing everyone to pay for convenience and it hurts the longevity of the game. People would make alts if they wanted to play with their friends on another faction. Now they don't have to and that will shorten the longevity for the game. Same with the horses and rings of Mara, those were expensive items in the game according to Paul Sage, but now you can just pay 20 bucks and get them instantly.

 

Mate, you need to start reading my posts instead of just jumping to conclusions. I provide sources, you provide assumptions. But I'm not surprised. It's obvious that you favour the F2P business model.

 

  MoLoK_

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/29/05
Posts: 309

1/30/14 4:03:25 AM#95
Originally posted by deakon
Originally posted by muffins89
collectors editions have been giving exclusive digital content for a decade.

This

 

The only "bad" or "unusual" thing here is having the race exclusive to CE owners, but tbh I expect them to open that up to the rest of us eventually, it will either be a prestige class rewarded for completing the 50+ and the 50++ content, or (and I hope they dont go this route) a small micro-transaction (they did say services like race/name change)

 

You can upgrade your game after launch if you pay $ to Zenimax in order to play as an Imperial. Says so in their FAQ.

If that aint a cash shop I dont know what it...

  inemosz

Novice Member

Joined: 3/13/12
Posts: 382

1/30/14 4:04:34 AM#96
Originally posted by asrlohz
Originally posted by CazNeerg
Originally posted by asrlohz

Yes, and allows you to play with any race in any faction. It ruins the storyline already written for the game. We've had this discussion before.

It's essentially a cashshop too, it was meant to contain all the content in the game for the price of a sub. But allowing every noob out there to look badass in an imperial armour from level one kind of ruins the point of it. That belongs in a F2P game, and you know it.

It doesn't ruin the storyline.  There is no narrative reason that members of any race couldn't be in any faction.  The factions are geo-political, not ethnic.  We don't know that the look for Imperial armor that can be worn at level 1 will be any more "badass" than any other style available at level 1, that is just an assumption.  "Meant to contain all the content in the game for the price of  a sub." How did you determine that meaning?  

Name one collector's edition that didn't include *something* that people couldn't get without paying.  Are you just categorically opposed to a collector's edition offering any in game bonuses, or are some ok, and others not?  If some are ok, why are they ok?  It's all "content."  If you are just categorically opposed to any kind of content ever being offered outside what is covered by the subscription, I understand.  I don't agree, but I understand.  I don't think the future looks bright for you in that case though, companies seem to have realized that relying solely on a sub is, in the long term, just bad business.

They are ethnic. Just look here. It's the daggerfall covenant talking about the other races. And all the other factions do the same.

And for example, one of the quests I managed to play in Cologne contained an Argonian in the Aldmeri Dominion whom my Wood Elf was confused to find there. The only response I had was "What's an Argonian doing outside of The Ebonheart Pack". She replied that she didn't follow the pack. So if I play an Argonian my character would still be surprised. Then there are quests where you interact with Queen Ayrenn too. Why should she trust the enemies?

 

Regarding the gear switching mechanic, look here. You can clearly see a low level character with shit gear being transformed into the "badass" looking gear.

And about the CE, it's not that it includes extra stuff, it's that it isn't exclusive. Anyone can buy it even if they only purchase the standard edition. So they can just upgrade their version of the game and get access to all that stuff. Just like how you would purchase a cool skin for your armour in a cash shop. Purchasing the physical Imperial Edition doesn't grant you anything exclusive other than the physical items.

If you join TESO a year from now, you can just pay $20 and get the same content the CE people got. So it's like the cashshop in Guildwars 2 where you could purchase gear skins.

 

 

And the reason to why subs don't work longterm is because game companies are doing "this" to their fanbase. They're allowing everyone to pay for convenience and it hurts the longevity of the game. People would make alts if they wanted to play with their friends on another faction. Now they don't have to and that will shorten the longevity for the game. Same with the horses and rings of Mara, those were expensive items in the game according to Paul Sage, but now you can just pay 20 bucks and get them instantly.

 

Mate, you need to start reading my posts instead of just jumping to conclusions. I provide sources, you provide assumptions. But I'm not surprised. It's obvious that you favour the F2P business model.

 

Just give up, he's good at twisting facts

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/6156240#6156240

  asrlohz

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/29/11
Posts: 664

Alea iacta est, beloved Doomsayers.

1/30/14 4:07:34 AM#97
Originally posted by inemosz
Originally posted by asrlohz
Originally posted by CazNeerg

 

Just give up, he's good at twisting facts

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/6156240#6156240

Oh, he's just rationalizing? Thank you for the heads up. I'll try to not pay any heed to him then.

  Azaron_Nightblade

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/12
Posts: 1131

1/30/14 4:13:14 AM#98

Getting some kind of XP boost for a CE is actually pretty common.

Usually it's in the form of a wearable item; If I'm not mistaken it's some kind of helmet on FFXIV for example, and I'm pretty sure there was at least one other MMO where it was a ring.

My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)

  Milander

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/27/04
Posts: 133

1/30/14 4:23:27 AM#99
Originally posted by Calven

At first I was mostly surprised by how these pre-order bonuses effectively cast aside the lore they build the game upon. But what I'm most surprised about is how people willingly throw money at developers for extra items they should be entitled to when they bought the game. I'm actually quite stunned by people who defend this development of buying content that should be in the game box. Why do you want to pay more.. for something you should be owning already? Why? Why on earth would you want to lose money that way? You should say "I will buy the game and be able to play everything in it, because that is what I've paid for. I will not accept that the developers restrict parts of the game I've already purchased and demand that I pay additional fees to unlock these features"

Why do you pay extra money for something you should be having in the standard box?

CE should offer real lige, tangible items that only they can have. I don't mind them getting fluff items as long as everyone else who also paid for the game can buy them in-game, for in-game currencies, at high prices. That way they remain rare and exclusive. But races are NOT vanity nor fluff items. In a game such as Elder Scrolls races are undoubtedly an important part of the lore. Everything involves the differences and conflicts between races. By excluding everyone else from a race, even though they paid for the game, ESO can no longer claim to be a subscription based game. It is, instead, a subscription game with limited content which can be unlocked by paying more money.

 

I'm still baffled by the people who seemingly cannot fathom how they are entitled to the game and all its content upon purchasing it. Can anyone tell me why you'd want to pay more when you should be getting it with the standard edition?

So then, with your point of view, why can't I just start with a maxed level character with every epic I need? I mean, why should I have to earn anything in the game, I bought it and am entitled to everything NOW!......

  asrlohz

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/29/11
Posts: 664

Alea iacta est, beloved Doomsayers.

1/30/14 4:25:46 AM#100
Originally posted by Azaron_Nightblade

Getting some kind of XP boost for a CE is actually pretty common.

Usually it's in the form of a wearable item; If I'm not mistaken it's some kind of helmet on FFXIV for example, and I'm pretty sure there was at least one other MMO where it was a ring.

It's a bad idea, though. The Longevity of the game relies on the lack of Convenience. This is something that should be done when people need to catch up to the endgame, maybe a year from now. Not at launch. Launch is the worst time to try and shorten the experience.

 

Either way, you could still get the ring even if you didn't pay for it. Difference is that it costs a lot of gold. And farming that gold up is part of the longevity. Just like farming up for mounts. It doesn't have to be fun, but it has to be rewarding. Purchasing convenience isn't rewarding at all which will lead to players finishing and leaving the game prematurely.

 

What ZOS needs to ask themselves is "Is a $20 dollar cashgrab worth the potential loss of several months of subscription and the trust of our subscribers?".  Longevity is what subscription games rely on.

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