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General Discussion  » I guess sub. based games truly are dead

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182 posts found
  Neo_Liberty

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/08/06
Posts: 437

1/29/14 8:59:13 PM#61
Originally posted by temporary_user
Originally posted by CazNeerg
Originally posted by iridescence

Skyrim doesn't have a sub.

Skyrim also doesn't have a persistent online world with PvP, grouping, and (theoretically) no additional cost content updates.

 

I think GW2 has that too, along with the cash shop.  Only they don't have the sub fee... weird.

 

I believe you are mistaken if you think the additional costs are going towards anything other than investor dividends.  TESO doesn't have magically high costs compared to every other MMORPG out there.  Time will tell if the subscription is justifiable, but it's just as likely that the content updates are crap and the sub is a scam.  Now, if the content updates are meaningful and worthwhile updates, I can agree with the subscription.  Gating content behind a pay wall (and the cash shop that will assist in this), a box price AND a subscription?  Only stupid consumers can justify that.

haha Q_Q more..

  Comaf

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/13/10
Posts: 1150

I want an mmorpg where pvp matters, my enemies are not my race or class, and community matters.

1/29/14 9:01:16 PM#62
Originally posted by Yamota

The whole point of getting a sub. based game is that everyone pays the same fee and get the same starting conditions. But lo and behold, collectors edition not only gives you bonus experience, a faster mount and a completely new race?

This is so wrong on atleast two ways. First, obviously, the fact that if you buy a collectors edition you will get significant exclusive content but also sets a precedence for the inevitable cash shop. Do you really think that if they offered this race in the collectors edition, they aren't going to offer the same or similar in the cash shop? Effectively turning this game to your typical F2P game, except it is not F2P. It is box+SUB and now also exclusive content which you need to pay for on top of the montly sub.

So true subscription based games, as we know it, are dead. RIP.

Either accept this cash shop plus P2P nonsense or move on from the MMO genre. Looking more and more to do the latter. Sad to see such a promising genre which started with UO (for me atleast) get turned into this.

I get the frustration of being unable to afford a fancy CE.  But this is a company that is not F2P, at least not for a good 6 months (hopefully longer).  Let them make the money they need to pay the $220,000,000 (speculative) bill of bringing an mmo that believes in some sense of RPG.
 

I want them to have a cosmetic cash shop as well, if this means that we can avoid F2P for as long as possible.

  iridescence

Novice Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1492

1/29/14 9:04:43 PM#63
Originally posted by CazNeerg
 

So all the people who play WoW (still the largest chunk of the MMO market) are stupid?  Because they still have a sub, and they have a cash shop, and you still have to pay for every expansion when you want to see new content, and some of those expansions have included new classes and/or races which couldn't be played until you ponied up for the expansion.

Let me know when WoW adds racial unlocks to their cash shop...

 

Originally posted by iridescence

True but the point is not that ESO shouldn't have a sub it's that it if it's going to have a box and a sub you should get everything gameplay related in the game without having to buy a collector's edition on top of that. A B2P single player game without a sub is different. 

Does anyone have a better argument than "because other games did it that way" to support *why* you should get everything for the purchase price plus a subscription?  What is in it for Zenimax if they did it that way?

They can charge what they like but I don't have to buy it or like it :). Basic economics, if you raise the price of something too high you actually start to make less money.

 

 

  temporary_user

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/29/14
Posts: 6

1/29/14 9:05:56 PM#64
Originally posted by CazNeerg
Originally posted by temporary_user

I think GW2 has that too, along with the cash shop.  Only they don't have the sub fee... weird. 

I believe you are mistaken if you think the additional costs are going towards anything other than investor dividends.  TESO doesn't have magically high costs compared to every other MMORPG out there.  Time will tell if the subscription is justifiable, but it's just as likely that the content updates are crap and the sub is a scam.  Now, if the content updates are meaningful and worthwhile updates, I can agree with the subscription.  Gating content behind a pay wall (and the cash shop that will assist in this), a box price AND a subscription?  Only stupid consumers can justify that.

So all the people who play WoW (still the largest chunk of the MMO market) are stupid?  Because they still have a sub, and they have a cash shop, and you still have to pay for every expansion when you want to see new content, and some of those expansions have included new classes and/or races which couldn't be played until you ponied up for the expansion.

 

I would say that it does get a pass on some things because it's the best MMORPG currently available.  Also, it's my understanding that they regularly release compelling raid content throughout the life cycle of each expansion, which helps justify the subscription cost.  That being said, I don't play WoW or particularly agree with all of Blizzard's business practices, particularly a cash shop (or content gated behind a pay wall) on top of a subscription fee.

 

All I really have left to say is that I'm definitely not the one trying to justify box price, content behind a pay wall and a subscription.  Is Zenimax paying you for your support or is it just some sort of private crusade?

  DamonVile

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4909

1/29/14 9:14:48 PM#65
Originally posted by CazNeerg
 

 

Originally posted by iridescence

True but the point is not that ESO shouldn't have a sub it's that it if it's going to have a box and a sub you should get everything gameplay related in the game without having to buy a collector's edition on top of that. A B2P single player game without a sub is different. 

Does anyone have a better argument than "because other games did it that way" to support *why* you should get everything for the purchase price plus a subscription?  What is in it for Zenimax if they did it that way?

The simple answer is, it's not a closed market. What they get out of it is players. Everything has a cost. Sometimes you get more money, sometimes you get less players. They can do whatever they want and charge whatever they want, but obviously they can't make everyone see what they're charging as worth paying.

Everyone else used to give you everything for the sub fee, it's what the paying player expects. Once you step away from that players now have to decide if this new same fee but less game is worth it. Wow got away with it because it's wow. A new game doesn't have 10 years of content under it's belt.

  CazNeerg

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/04
Posts: 2220

"So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb." Dark Helmet

1/29/14 9:34:12 PM#66

Originally posted by iridescence

Let me know when WoW adds racial unlocks to their cash shop...

 They can charge what they like but I don't have to buy it or like it :). Basic economics, if you raise the price of something too high you actually start to make less money. 

If they release an expansion that includes a race which can only be played by those play the expansion, that is the equivalent of a racial unlock in a cash shop.  The fact that it is packaged with other content doesn't change the reality that it is a race behind a pay wall.

And you are right that you don't have to buy it or like it.  But if I were you, I wouldn't get my hopes up that enough people share your view to stop the direction the industry is moving in.

Originally posted by temporary_user

I would say that it does get a pass on some things because it's the best MMORPG currently available.  Also, it's my understanding that they regularly release compelling raid content throughout the life cycle of each expansion, which helps justify the subscription cost.  That being said, I don't play WoW or particularly agree with all of Blizzard's business practices, particularly a cash shop (or content gated behind a pay wall) on top of a subscription fee. 

All I really have left to say is that I'm definitely not the one trying to justify box price, content behind a pay wall and a subscription.  Is Zenimax paying you for your support or is it just some sort of private crusade?

Most popular, not best.  Popularity can be measured, "best" is a matter of opinion.

I'm not paid, and it's not a crusade.  I'm just enjoying the conversations.  As soon as the irritation of dealing with trolls and morons (not accusing you of being either, but there are a lot on this forum) becomes greater than the enjoyment I'm getting from the conversations, I'll go do something else.  Or when Arrow has been on long enough that I can start watching without commercials.  Whichever comes first.

 

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

  CazNeerg

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/04
Posts: 2220

"So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb." Dark Helmet

1/29/14 9:41:59 PM#67
Originally posted by DamonVile

The simple answer is, it's not a closed market. What they get out of it is players. Everything has a cost. Sometimes you get more money, sometimes you get less players. They can do whatever they want and charge whatever they want, but obviously they can't make everyone see what they're charging as worth paying.

Everyone else used to give you everything for the sub fee, it's what the paying player expects. Once you step away from that players now have to decide if this new same fee but less game is worth it. Wow got away with it because it's wow. A new game doesn't have 10 years of content under it's belt.

MMO "Veterans" expect it, if and only if they haven't been paying attention to recent market trends.  I think it would be more accurate at this point to say that people (the ones who have been paying attention) *want* everything for the sub fee, but expect that that isn't what is going to actually happen.

And it requires a lot of assumptions to say that it's less game for the same money.  There is never any way to be certain that content offered for an extra fee is content they would have provided as part of the sub if they decided to fully avoid microtransactions.  It could just be content they wouldn't have provided at all.  

My advice, to anyone, is try a game when it hits open beta.  Don't pay any attention to any details of the revenue model until after you play the game.  If you play, and don't have fun, the revenue model is irrelevant.  If you play and enjoy yourself, ask yourself how much that enjoyment is worth.  Only then should people look at the revenue model and decide whether the price being asked is worth it for the content being provided.  Trying to base decisions on arbitrary rules about how developers "should" charge just seems silly to me.  It's about getting a reasonable amount of fun for your time and money invested.  As long as that is happening, the revenue mechanisms shouldn't be relevant.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

  stealthbr

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/07/06
Posts: 1075

1/29/14 10:00:48 PM#68

Here's a quote from an interview with Matt Firor back in August of 2013. All I have to say is: LOL

"The Elder Scrolls games are all about allowing the player to go where they want, be who they want, and do what they want. We feel that putting pay gates between the player and content at any point in game ruins that feeling of freedom, and just having one small monthly fee for 100% access to the game fits the IP and the game much better than a system where you have to pay for features and access as you play. The Elder Scrolls Online was designed and developed to be a premium experience: hundreds of hours of gameplay, tons of depth and features, professional customer support - and a commitment to have ongoing content at regular intervals after launch. This type of experience is best paired with a one-time fee per month, as opposed to many smaller payments that would probably add up to more than $14.99/month any way." 

  Skymourne

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/12/11
Posts: 375

1/29/14 10:13:13 PM#69

Does anyone have a better argument than "because other games did it that way" to support *why* you should get everything for the purchase price plus a subscription?  What is in it for Zenimax if they did it that way?

The retaining of their dignity maybe?  That would be incentive enough, but money talks and bullshit walks.  I don't care about the map, mount, rings, and mudcrab.  That stuff is standard for all MMOs.  I do very much care that the entire game is offered to me through only pre-order and that my favorite race is worth 90 bucks apparently.  If i wait until after launch i guess i'm just shit out of luck.  All races should come with the standard "i just picked this up at gamestop after launch" package like every other game that is not a scam.  Look, you guys can defend this all day, and others will be outraged by it.  Buy the game, have your fun, and i hope you enjoy it, i truly do.  I will never partake.  I will be told "my loss", but to me i dodged a bullet.  

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 6255

1/29/14 10:35:01 PM#70
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by Yamota
Originally posted by muffins89
collectors editions have been giving exclusive digital content for a decade.

Like a whole new race and any race/faction combination possible? Yeah, I dont think so...

Somebody pointed out that shadowbane did this.

I don't know what other games offered as I tend not to pay attention to collector's editons.

Did the makers of Shadowbane come out and say, several months before they released the CE, that they chose the subscription model specifically because they didn't think money-gating and cash shops were good for their game like Firor did? That's the big difference to me. If someone is honest about what they offer then it is just a matter of do you want to or not. It's when developers and publishers pander and mislead to sell out of misrepresentation. That's wrong.

The whole premise of their subscription was to offer an "oldschool" sub experience. That was obviously a huge load of bunk. So what is your sub covering anyway, especially since they'll have a cash shop? Firor knew that if he was honest and said there will be a cash shop + sub + box/dlc fee that gamers would have rejected that so he lied. Why is that okay?

Curse you AquaScum!

  CazNeerg

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/04
Posts: 2220

"So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb." Dark Helmet

1/29/14 10:43:40 PM#71
Originally posted by Skymourne

The retaining of their dignity maybe?  That would be incentive enough, but money talks and bullshit walks.  I don't care about the map, mount, rings, and mudcrab.  That stuff is standard for all MMOs.  I do very much care that the entire game is offered to me through only pre-order and that my favorite race is worth 90 bucks apparently.  If i wait until after launch i guess i'm just shit out of luck.  All races should come with the standard "i just picked this up at gamestop after launch" package like every other game that is not a scam.  Look, you guys can defend this all day, and others will be outraged by it.  Buy the game, have your fun, and i hope you enjoy it, i truly do.  I will never partake.  I will be told "my loss", but to me i dodged a bullet.  

Dignity?  Lol.

What it comes down to is that, regardless of what you think of their choices here, the gaming population as a whole is almost certainly going to reward them for those choices.  And if they do, that means their choices were correct, because their job is to make as much money as possible.  Those who don't like it need to be working to convince consumers to behave differently, not raging at the companies for acting responsibly.

As for whether it's your loss, there is no guarantee you would have enjoyed the game, so not necessarily.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

  Skymourne

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/12/11
Posts: 375

1/29/14 10:51:32 PM#72

Dignity?  Lol.

What it comes down to is that, regardless of what you think of their choices here, the gaming population as a whole is almost certainly going to reward them for those choices.  And if they do, that means their choices were correct, because their job is to make as much money as possible.  Those who don't like it need to be working to convince consumers to behave differently, not raging at the companies for acting responsibly.

As for whether it's your loss, there is no guarantee you would have enjoyed the game, so not necessarily.

Hey, laugh at me all you want about dignity, but having a great reputation as a company is something that should be treasured. This is a matter of principle for me.  They just crossed the line, flying over it in a jumbo jet that will be paid for by consumers who keep giving an inch more every time and these companies are taking miles.  I won't be a part of it.  it's a joke, it's disgusting, and i hope this bites them in the ass down the road.  Sure, their goal is to make money.  The sheep will throw money at them.  not me.  Keep drinking the Kool-Aid, i guess.  Best of luck to you.

 

  CazNeerg

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/04
Posts: 2220

"So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb." Dark Helmet

1/29/14 10:54:17 PM#73
Originally posted by Skymourne

Hey, laugh at me all you want about dignity, but having a great reputation as a company is something that should be treasured. This is a matter of principle for me.  They just crossed the line, flying over it in a jumbo jet that will be paid for by consumers who keep giving an inch more every time and these companies are taking miles.  I won't be a part of it.  it's a joke, it's disgusting, and i hope this bites them in the ass down the road.  Sure, their goal is to make money.  The sheep will throw money at them.  not me.  Keep drinking the Kool-Aid, i guess.  Best of luck to you. 

Good luck to you too, enjoy whatever it is you decide to play.  EQN looks promising, if a bit of a wait.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

  handlewithcare

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/13/14
Posts: 329

1/29/14 11:04:00 PM#74

I will sub. I don't have a choice and as far as the cash shop goes they can stick it where the sun don't shine.

I will mush rather pay a subscription fee to ESO than paying a sub. for FFXIV with their most ridiculous and boring missions.

  iridescence

Novice Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1492

1/30/14 12:03:26 AM#75
Originally posted by CazNeerg

 

If they release an expansion that includes a race which can only be played by those play the expansion, that is the equivalent of a racial unlock in a cash shop.  The fact that it is packaged with other content doesn't change the reality that it is a race behind a pay wall.

No it definitely isn't. An expansion is new content produced after the game launches. This is something they are cutting out of the main game and charging extra for. This is a lot closer to day one DLC in single player games. A practice which I also dislike.

 

 

 

  CazNeerg

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/04
Posts: 2220

"So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb." Dark Helmet

1/30/14 12:22:12 AM#76
Originally posted by iridescence

No it definitely isn't. An expansion is new content produced after the game launches. This is something they are cutting out of the main game and charging extra for. This is a lot closer to day one DLC in single player games. A practice which I also dislike.

It's only "cutting out" if they intended to include the Imperial even if there were no collector's edition.  Otherwise it is content specifically produced as a special edition bonus, with the intent to gain added revenue.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

  iridescence

Novice Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1492

1/30/14 12:27:45 AM#77
Originally posted by CazNeerg
 

It's only "cutting out" if they intended to include the Imperial even if there were no collector's edition.  Otherwise it is content specifically produced as a special edition bonus, with the intent to gain added revenue.

I honestly don't see the difference beyond extreme hair-splitting   but if you want to tell yourself that that makes the practice better then that's your choice to make I guess. 

 

  rygard49

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/11
Posts: 988

1/30/14 12:30:46 AM#78
Originally posted by temporary_user
Originally posted by rygard49
Originally posted by rockin_ufo

So explain to me how if I buy this game a month down the line (for obvious reasons like making sure the game actually has substance *cough*NDA hiding a lot of info* and me not being able to set down a 60$ investment. How will I, dear sir, be able to play with friends in another race or get the Imperial faction?

Play with friends in any faction by making a character of one of that factions races.

The Imperial race you shouldn't feel entitled to at all. As of now, the only people playing as an Imperial will be those who have invested more money than you were willing to. You may be able to unlock it later, but that's a chance you'll have to take in order to play it safe and wait to see how the game is.

 

I think the people that have invested more money should have to pay a higher subscription fee every month to maintain their exclusive bonus.  Say $20 monthly instead of $15.  I mean, there is nothing saying they are entitled to retain that bonus beyond the initial month included with the box price.

 

That's only sort of sarcasm.  The other part of me would like to see it happen, just because people get what they deserve... and in this case, ask for as well.

You're free to form whatever opinion that you desire on what you feel would be fair. But you're wrong that there's nothing to say that those who pay more are entitled to keep that bonus; Zenimax says those 'Imperial' customers are entitled to keep that bonus for the same standard monthly fee as a standard box customer.

  User Deleted
1/30/14 1:39:43 AM#79
Given the content length, suggested leveling speed from what I hear, and size of the world, the people hoping for f2p aren't going to see even the possibility until about 1.5 to 2 years after launch.  IF they deliver on the large content updates suggested then it may not even go f2p even then.  If content doesn't come as fast as expected unless they go Freemium or give a free trial up to level 15 (50 is cap so not that small) or something like that then I doubt it will ever go truly F2P within a 4-5 year life cycle, but more of a middle ground hybrid in 2 years seems at least likely.
  Kevyne-Shandris

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/10/08
Posts: 1980

You can't † BURY † ¤¤ Holy Paladins ¤¤ As we will always __.- ASCEND -.__

1/30/14 1:49:52 AM#80
Originally posted by Raoul9753

The race isnt even that big of a deal, since the racial skills are not that impressive.

 

Huh? In Elder Scrolls, since Imperials are the "voice of the Emperor", it's legit to complain that it's exclusive, though.

 

It's not rocket science to see why it's in a Collectors edition, because it's the most important race in the game (it's like humans in WoW, most played and used), due to their association with the emperors.

 

Price or horse isn't so much the issue, the race is. Some other exclusive race maybe (vampire?), but not Imperials. It won't play well if folks want to RP are Imperial guards as any other race doesn't fit well (Nordics have their own loyalties, too).

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