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Elder Scrolls Online

Elder Scrolls Online 

General Discussion  » I guess sub. based games truly are dead

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182 posts found
  temporary_user

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/29/14
Posts: 6

1/29/14 6:39:01 PM#41
Originally posted by rygard49
Originally posted by rockin_ufo
Originally posted by deakon
Originally posted by Yamota
Originally posted by deakon
Originally posted by Yamota
Originally posted by muffins89
collectors editions have been giving exclusive digital content for a decade.

Like a whole new race and any race/faction combination possible? Yeah, I dont think so...

Any race/faction doesn't cost you any extra you just have to buy any version of the game

Any pre-order version.

 

That costs you no extra money at all

So explain to me how if I buy this game a month down the line (for obvious reasons like making sure the game actually has substance *cough*NDA hiding a lot of info* and me not being able to set down a 60$ investment. How will I, dear sir, be able to play with friends in another race or get the Imperial faction?

Play with friends in any faction by making a character of one of that factions races.

The Imperial race you shouldn't feel entitled to at all. As of now, the only people playing as an Imperial will be those who have invested more money than you were willing to. You may be able to unlock it later, but that's a chance you'll have to take in order to play it safe and wait to see how the game is.

 

I think the people that have invested more money should have to pay a higher subscription fee every month to maintain their exclusive bonus.  Say $20 monthly instead of $15.  I mean, there is nothing saying they are entitled to retain that bonus beyond the initial month included with the box price.

 

That's only sort of sarcasm.  The other part of me would like to see it happen, just because people get what they deserve... and in this case, ask for as well.

  Ulorik

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/12/11
Posts: 179

1/29/14 6:42:37 PM#42
Just go away already and leave us play the game in peace......your loss, not mine
  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 6685

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

1/29/14 6:46:29 PM#43

You must not knowingly mislead or have omissions when trading to a customer."Consumer protection act"

This Imperial race did not suddenly pop up ,so they KNEW for quite some time there was more races than they let on.Even still now they are not coming completely clear as to what or how players will interact with these items in game if not CE buyers.

This is also LAW.If by your omissions and misleading conduct the customer may have made or changed their decision,then yes Zenimax broke the law.I would say without question this would cause changes in decisions and Zeni was being VERY misleading ,leading up to this point.

I would never hold a grudge towards a game because games are just code,but crooked and misleading people i do not like and someone or few people at Zeni are not cool but instead willing to stoop to any means to get a buck.

They must have known for several months they had another race in the works and not once let it be known.

I would like to know what Zenimax definition of a subscription is because that is again misleading.We as long time consumers have always assumed a sub means you get to play "ALL" the content.Just because a couple or few devs have been getting away with it,does not make it right.That is like selling you a car then after buying it ,they say,oh if you want a steering wheel you have to pay us another 500 bucks.You would be under the assumption that buying a car you get the WHOLE car.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w
Samoan Diamond

  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 6685

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

1/29/14 6:52:26 PM#44
Originally posted by Raoul9753

The mount is not faster. You only get it for free.  "Explore Tamriel faster" is saying that you can move faster on a horse and you have it from the very beginning.

 

The race isnt even that big of a deal, since the racial skills are not that impressive.

 

Bonus experience if you play with a friend. That will become common work when the "get a friend to play the game"gets on.

 

You guys are seriously overreactiong about a trivial thing.

 

 

Either way,weather you consider it trivial and you are not accurate in your assessment btw but none the less if someone else DOES consider it important,either way ZENI is being misleading and that is against the LAW.

Just look at the mount,WHO says it is not faster because they are saying it IS faster 40% faster.That alone is misleading is it not?

Who says the other CE edition will or will not have access to that content,nobody knows for sure,so again MISLEADING.

THAT is the problem,not weather you consider it trivial or not,that is VERY poor business practices to be unclear,misleading,not cool at all.

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w
Samoan Diamond

  eldaris

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/21/06
Posts: 326

1/29/14 7:07:26 PM#45


Originally posted by Torvaldr
The difference here is that Firor explicitly stated that they chose P2P because they didn't think pay-gates and cash shop "nickel and dime" methods were a good fit for the game, as opposed to B2P or some other sub-free option. He also said no cash shop or mtx, but they're doing mtx and and will have a shop where they sill account services and "fun stuff" (whatever that is). If they would just be honest and up front about what they're doing I wouldn't care how they monetized.

It's not much different than TOR, except we see that TOR only became really successful after they dropped the box fee and made the sub optional. After that they became one of the most successful cash shops in the last year.


Same Firor who spoke about faction pride ? It seems he, like a lot of other developers from first gen of mmorpgs, is just one hit wonder after all. Warhammer(old daoc developers) failed,Aoc(Funcom - Anarchy online) is not doing well too and TESO ...

  deveilblad

Novice Member

Joined: 4/25/13
Posts: 149

1/29/14 7:10:22 PM#46
Originally posted by jgankum

 


Originally posted by Calven
At first I was mostly surprised by how these pre-order bonuses effectively cast aside the lore they build the game upon. But what I'm most surprised about is how people willingly throw money at developers for extra items they should be entitled to when they bought the game. I'm actually quite stunned by people who defend this development of buying content that should be in the game box. Why do you want to pay more.. for something you should be owning already? Why? Why on earth would you want to lose money that way? You should say "I will buy the game and be able to play everything in it, because that is what I've paid for. I will not accept that the developers restrict parts of the game I've already purchased and demand that I pay additional fees to unlock these features"

 

Why do you pay extra money for something you should be having in the standard box?

CE should offer real lige, tangible items that only they can have. I don't mind them getting fluff items as long as everyone else who also paid for the game can buy them in-game, for in-game currencies, at high prices. That way they remain rare and exclusive. But races are NOT vanity nor fluff items. In a game such as Elder Scrolls races are undoubtedly an important part of the lore. Everything involves the differences and conflicts between races. By excluding everyone else from a race, even though they paid for the game, ESO can no longer claim to be a subscription based game. It is, instead, a subscription game with limited content which can be unlocked by paying more money.

 

I'm still baffled by the people who seemingly cannot fathom how they are entitled to the game and all its content upon purchasing it. Can anyone tell me why you'd want to pay more when you should be getting it with the standard edition?


 

I'm kind of baffled as to why you think your "entitled" to something you are not willing to pay for. There are two editions of the game. You are only "entitled" to what each edition list as content.

If you bought a base model car, do you truly believe your entitled to all of the premium features just because they exist?

If you buy a car, you expect all the parts to be in right ? You'd find it normal to buy a car open the hood and OH WELL there's no windshield washer container...?? The vendor then tells you that if have to pay more for it, because you can still ride around with your car without it... It's just less convenient...

 

Race choice is not a premium feature, it's one of the core features of any game... You can still play the game without it just like the car analogy, but it's a core feature everyone expects to have that is missing...

  CazNeerg

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/04
Posts: 2220

"So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb." Dark Helmet

1/29/14 7:15:43 PM#47
Originally posted by deveilblad

If you buy a car, you expect all the parts to be in right ? You'd find it normal to buy a car open the hood and OH WELL there's no windshield washer container...?? The vendor then tells you that if have to pay more for it, because you can still ride around with your car without it... It's just less convenient... 

Race choice is not a premium feature, it's one of the core features of any game... You can still play the game without it just like the car analogy, but it's a core feature everyone expects to have that is missing...

Missing?  You get nine choices with the base game.  Your argument is like saying that if a company offers a car with nine different colors of leather seats for the same price, they shouldn't be allowed to offer a tenth color of leather at a higher price.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

  deveilblad

Novice Member

Joined: 4/25/13
Posts: 149

1/29/14 7:19:30 PM#48
Originally posted by CazNeerg
Originally posted by deveilblad

If you buy a car, you expect all the parts to be in right ? You'd find it normal to buy a car open the hood and OH WELL there's no windshield washer container...?? The vendor then tells you that if have to pay more for it, because you can still ride around with your car without it... It's just less convenient... 

Race choice is not a premium feature, it's one of the core features of any game... You can still play the game without it just like the car analogy, but it's a core feature everyone expects to have that is missing...

Missing?  You get nine choices with the base game.  Your argument is like saying that if a company offers a car with nine different colors of leather seats for the same price, they shouldn't be allowed to offer a tenth color of leather at a higher price.

If the tenth color of leather gives your car special unique ''skills'', then yes that is what I'm saying. Racial skill lines are very unique and important in ESO, it's not like WoW's +0,5% crit or whatever, in ESO it actually changes things...

 

This is a very not well hidden pre-play cash shop lol... How some people don't see it is beyond me ...

  Dalanon

Novice Member

Joined: 10/11/06
Posts: 115

1/29/14 7:28:42 PM#49

The collectors edition stuff looks pretty standard.  For those getting so upset over the extra race to play, that's essentially just a skin for your character and totally cosmetic so I don't see what the big deal is. 

Both digital editions come with the explorers pack of stuff and the early access which seems fair enough if you don't want to shell out the extra twenty dollars for the imperial junk and the pet.  I think it's nice for Zenimax to show appreciation to the people that want to support the game early buy giving them some digital goodies and early access.

I guess the rings from the imperial edition are a bit over the top in my opinion.  I don't like purchased xp bonuses, hopefully its very minimal.

Not all who wander are lost...

  Heavy-armor-warrior

Novice Member

Joined: 11/03/13
Posts: 226

Hey is for horses and so is grass. So pucker up and kiss my...well nvm

1/29/14 7:31:01 PM#50
Originally posted by Yamota

The whole point of getting a sub. based game is that everyone pays the same fee and get the same starting conditions. But lo and behold, collectors edition not only gives you bonus experience, a faster mount and a completely new race?

This is so wrong on atleast two ways. First, obviously, the fact that if you buy a collectors edition you will get significant exclusive content but also sets a precedence for the inevitable cash shop. Do you really think that if they offered this race in the collectors edition, they aren't going to offer the same or similar in the cash shop? Effectively turning this game to your typical F2P game, except it is not F2P. It is box+SUB and now also exclusive content which you need to pay for on top of the montly sub.

So true subscription based games, as we know it, are dead. RIP.

Either accept this cash shop plus P2P nonsense or move on from the MMO genre. Looking more and more to do the latter. Sad to see such a promising genre which started with UO (for me atleast) get turned into this.

Skyrim has a collectors edition, right? This is still a TES game people. We are forgetting this.

  iridescence

Elite Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1164

1/29/14 7:34:51 PM#51

Nah, just because ESO appears to have  a bad and exploitive model (which i think will backfire n them big time) I think the sub model is alive and well because most games realize that offering anything in addition to cosmetics for sale above the sub price in a sub game is totally unreasonable.

 

The reality though is that "sub" now equals "sub with a cosmetic cash shop". Being totally against any kind of cash shop is kind of pointless as all companies now realize that cash shop=free money. ESO is taking this to a ludicrous extreme though expecting you to buy racial unlocks in addition to your box price. I hope not many people will go along with that.

 

 

 

  BeansnBread

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5548

1/29/14 7:35:22 PM#52
Originally posted by Heavy-armor-warrior
Originally posted by Yamota

The whole point of getting a sub. based game is that everyone pays the same fee and get the same starting conditions. But lo and behold, collectors edition not only gives you bonus experience, a faster mount and a completely new race?

This is so wrong on atleast two ways. First, obviously, the fact that if you buy a collectors edition you will get significant exclusive content but also sets a precedence for the inevitable cash shop. Do you really think that if they offered this race in the collectors edition, they aren't going to offer the same or similar in the cash shop? Effectively turning this game to your typical F2P game, except it is not F2P. It is box+SUB and now also exclusive content which you need to pay for on top of the montly sub.

So true subscription based games, as we know it, are dead. RIP.

Either accept this cash shop plus P2P nonsense or move on from the MMO genre. Looking more and more to do the latter. Sad to see such a promising genre which started with UO (for me atleast) get turned into this.

Skyrim has a collectors edition, right? This is still a TES game people. We are forgetting this.

Yeah, but you could play an Imperial if you bought the standard edition of Skyrim.

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

  iridescence

Elite Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1164

1/29/14 7:38:13 PM#53
Originally posted by Heavy-armor-warrior
Originally posted by Yamota

 

Skyrim has a collectors edition, right? This is still a TES game people. We are forgetting this.

 

Skyrim doesn't have a sub.

Do you get anything non-cosmetic in the CE? (I honestly don't remember  but  even if you do it's a single player non-sub game so apples and oranges).

  Jacxolope

Novice Member

Joined: 1/15/13
Posts: 743

1/29/14 7:41:01 PM#54
Originally posted by iridescence

Nah, just because ESO appears to have  a bad and exploitive model (which i think will backfire n them big time) I think the sub model is alive and well because most games realize that offering anything in addition to cosmetics for sale above the sub price in a sub game is totally unreasonable.

 

The reality though is that "sub" now equals "sub with a cosmetic cash shop". Being totally against any kind of cash shop is kind of pointless as all companies now realize that cash shop=free money. ESO is taking this to a ludicrous extreme though expecting you to buy racial unlocks in addition to your box price. I hope not many people will go along with that.

 

 

 

I would agree-

I sure will not be buying this now, for whatever its worth.

I have been 'on the fence' about this game anyhow but had stated many, many times I WILL be purchasing this since I have played every ES game since Daggerfall (played arena as well, but not for very long)

I am off the fence. Hope it crashes and burns not because I want the game itself to fail (i dont) but I want this encroachment stopped. Its already essentially ruined the hobby imho and the nicke and diming for everything is going to continue until we ALL vote with out wallets (which is unlikely) and so the slippery slope will probably become a cliff.

  CazNeerg

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/04
Posts: 2220

"So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb." Dark Helmet

1/29/14 7:43:40 PM#55
Originally posted by iridescence

Skyrim doesn't have a sub.

Skyrim also doesn't have a persistent online world with PvP, grouping, and (theoretically) no additional cost content updates.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

  Miblet

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/19/10
Posts: 333

1/29/14 7:51:32 PM#56
Originally posted by Dalanon

The collectors edition stuff looks pretty standard.  For those getting so upset over the extra race to play, that's essentially just a skin for your character and totally cosmetic so I don't see what the big deal is. 

Look into racial skill lines (not cosmetic - and that is the issue).  If it had just been a skin you would have had complaints but it would have been nothing new.  This is the first time I have seen the triple dip (box, sub and cash shop) before launch, but sadly not the first time I have seen people defend the poor billion dollar company from the evil greedy consumer.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17127

1/29/14 7:54:29 PM#57
Originally posted by Yamota
Originally posted by muffins89
collectors editions have been giving exclusive digital content for a decade.

Like a whole new race and any race/faction combination possible? Yeah, I dont think so...

Somebody pointed out that shadowbane did this.

I don't know what other games offered as I tend not to pay attention to collector's editons.

  temporary_user

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/29/14
Posts: 6

1/29/14 7:55:48 PM#58
Originally posted by CazNeerg
Originally posted by iridescence

Skyrim doesn't have a sub.

Skyrim also doesn't have a persistent online world with PvP, grouping, and (theoretically) no additional cost content updates.

 

I think GW2 has that too, along with the cash shop.  Only they don't have the sub fee... weird.

 

I believe you are mistaken if you think the additional costs are going towards anything other than investor dividends.  TESO doesn't have magically high costs compared to every other MMORPG out there.  Time will tell if the subscription is justifiable, but it's just as likely that the content updates are crap and the sub is a scam.  Now, if the content updates are meaningful and worthwhile updates, I can agree with the subscription.  Gating content behind a pay wall (and the cash shop that will assist in this), a box price AND a subscription?  Only stupid consumers can justify that.

 

Edit:  Also, the content updates would be at the additional cost of a subscription fee.  The days of a subscription fee ONLY providing access to servers are behind us.  With all the F2P options, a company needs to justify a subscription.

  iridescence

Elite Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1164

1/29/14 7:57:48 PM#59
Originally posted by CazNeerg
Originally posted by iridescence

Skyrim doesn't have a sub.

Skyrim also doesn't have a persistent online world with PvP, grouping, and (theoretically) no additional cost content updates.

True but the point is not that ESO shouldn't have a sub it's that it if it's going to have a box and a sub you should get everything gameplay related in the game without having to buy a collector's edition on top of that. A B2P single player game without a sub is different.

 

  CazNeerg

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/04
Posts: 2220

"So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb." Dark Helmet

1/29/14 7:58:36 PM#60
Originally posted by temporary_user

I think GW2 has that too, along with the cash shop.  Only they don't have the sub fee... weird. 

I believe you are mistaken if you think the additional costs are going towards anything other than investor dividends.  TESO doesn't have magically high costs compared to every other MMORPG out there.  Time will tell if the subscription is justifiable, but it's just as likely that the content updates are crap and the sub is a scam.  Now, if the content updates are meaningful and worthwhile updates, I can agree with the subscription.  Gating content behind a pay wall (and the cash shop that will assist in this), a box price AND a subscription?  Only stupid consumers can justify that.

So all the people who play WoW (still the largest chunk of the MMO market) are stupid?  Because they still have a sub, and they have a cash shop, and you still have to pay for every expansion when you want to see new content, and some of those expansions have included new classes and/or races which couldn't be played until you ponied up for the expansion.

Originally posted by iridescence

True but the point is not that ESO shouldn't have a sub it's that it if it's going to have a box and a sub you should get everything gameplay related in the game without having to buy a collector's edition on top of that. A B2P single player game without a sub is different. 

Does anyone have a better argument than "because other games did it that way" to support *why* you should get everything for the purchase price plus a subscription?  What is in it for Zenimax if they did it that way?

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