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General Discussion  » Zenimax - it takes work to make a decision this bad

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255 posts found
  trisox

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/20/08
Posts: 23

1/30/14 5:12:52 AM#121
Originally posted by Azaron_Nightblade
Originally posted by trisox
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by JeroKane
Originally posted by trisox

my biggest issue with it arent the preorder CE items themselves.

Usually you can see how developers are aiming to develop the game over it's lifetime. This one seems to be kinda like a "Singleplayer-fast-moneygrab-game" due to all the stuff they are currently pushing out. You know, Box price, Subscription Fee, Ingame Cash Shop AND a cashgrab CE Edition. All in all this seems like a very short "project" of Bethesda - just grabbing as much money as they can before killing off the game, going free to play or even worse: shutting down the servers.

All these things just point into that direction and i don't feel supporting them until the game truly proves it doesnt want to go this way.

Just my to cents, opinions are welcome! :)

QFT!

Except for the part in red that's not even remotely a "T"?

Im, sorry did i get that wrong? I'm pretty sure they announced an item-shop a while a go. So u will have Boxprice, Sub & Shop

It wouldn't surprise me.

And feel free to blame WoW if it turns out there is indeed a cash shop.

The industry "leader" doing it is pretty much a nod to the others that's it's okay to do this.

That being said, I don't mind a cash shop as long as it's well done and it restricts itself to cosmetics.

well, actually they announced it and almost every site has an article about it. question truly is if its only cosmetic or gamebreaking. though i think if they had a itemshop for cosmetics only, they might have cleared that out by now (as this is pretty old news from maybe about 4-5 weeks ago now)

 

by the way: i didnt mean to unleash cash shop hate with my original post - i was just pointing out where the game seems to be headed

  Azaron_Nightblade

Elite Member

Joined: 9/27/12
Posts: 764

1/30/14 5:16:19 AM#122
Originally posted by trisox
Originally posted by Azaron_Nightblade
Originally posted by trisox
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by JeroKane
Originally posted by trisox

my biggest issue with it arent the preorder CE items themselves.

Usually you can see how developers are aiming to develop the game over it's lifetime. This one seems to be kinda like a "Singleplayer-fast-moneygrab-game" due to all the stuff they are currently pushing out. You know, Box price, Subscription Fee, Ingame Cash Shop AND a cashgrab CE Edition. All in all this seems like a very short "project" of Bethesda - just grabbing as much money as they can before killing off the game, going free to play or even worse: shutting down the servers.

All these things just point into that direction and i don't feel supporting them until the game truly proves it doesnt want to go this way.

Just my to cents, opinions are welcome! :)

QFT!

Except for the part in red that's not even remotely a "T"?

Im, sorry did i get that wrong? I'm pretty sure they announced an item-shop a while a go. So u will have Boxprice, Sub & Shop

It wouldn't surprise me.

And feel free to blame WoW if it turns out there is indeed a cash shop.

The industry "leader" doing it is pretty much a nod to the others that's it's okay to do this.

That being said, I don't mind a cash shop as long as it's well done and it restricts itself to cosmetics.

well, actually they announced it and almost every site has an article about it. question truly is if its only cosmetic or gamebreaking. though i think if they had a itemshop for cosmetics only, they might have cleared that out by now (as this is pretty old news from maybe about 4-5 weeks ago now)

If it's not just cosmetics... yeah, that would bode ill for the game and the way they intend to run it.

I doubt they would be stupid enough to do something like that though, every MMO that's tried something like it on the western market was a bust.

Hopefully we'll get a bit more insight into the cash shop in the coming months.

My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)

  ToneFish

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/16/03
Posts: 13

1/30/14 5:17:49 AM#123

It is clear that the developer has to make money but I do agree that decision seems somewhat contradictory to their justification of the P2P model for ESO.

The ESO director  Matt Firor previously stated:

"We wanted to do monetisation outside of the game. So, if I pay for a month at a time, I have 100 per cent of the game. I don't have to worry about paying one more cent. I'll never run into a pay gate and I'll be in the world."

 

So one main reason behind the monthly subscription was that they wanted to be able to offer 100% of the game to everyone  -  this could now be argued that to some extent is no longer true.

 

 

  asrlohz

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/11
Posts: 658

Alea iacta est, beloved Doomsayers.

1/30/14 5:21:14 AM#124
Originally posted by ToneFish

It is clear that the developer has to make money but I do agree that decision seems somewhat contradictory to their justification of the P2P model for ESO.

The director  Matt Firor previously stated:

"We wanted to do monetisation outside of the game. So, if I pay for a month at a time, I have 100 per cent of the game. I don't have to worry about paying one more cent. I'll never run into a pay gate and I'll be in the world."

So one main reason behind the monthly subscription was that they wanted to be able to offer 100% of the game to everyone  -  this could now be argued that to some extent is no longer true.

 

 

Aye, this isn't too bad though. But that's not the point. The point is how the make a complete U-Turn on their previous announcements of faction pride, non-tolerance for paygates and so on.

So how can we trust them that they won't keep adding these paygates if they're already doing it before launch?

 

Will that 1% paygate start expanding into 25% and so on? How are we to trust them?

  jeffreynl

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/11/12
Posts: 5

1/30/14 5:23:29 AM#125
Originally posted by KaosProphet
Originally posted by Gaoxin

Star Trek Online did this 4 years ago.

Buy lifetime sub = get an "exclusive" race. "exclusive" because 50% of the population played that race.^^ NOT THAT EXCLUSIVE AND UNIQUE.

The price of the lifetime sub was around 150€, so I guess about the same amount you would pay for a CE.

 

I don't get why someone would rage about not be able to play Imperial. Its not like they are giving you a cool/unique race. Its just HUMANS, the most common race in every MMORPG. Most races look almost the same anyway.

You have:

Breton = humans

Redguard = humans

Orc = humans with green skin and ugly faces

Nord = humans with the height scale set to max

Dark Elf = humans with darker skin and pointy ears

High Elf = humans with green/yellow skin and pointy ears

Wood Elf = humans with pointy ears

Khajit = A UNIQUE RACE

Argonian = A UNIQUE RACE

By the logic used to simplify the orcs into "humans with green skin," one could just as easily claim

Khajit = humans with fur

Argonian = humans with scaly skin

because oversimplification ftw.

You sir are just a pure win ! Have my kudo!

Anyways, I'm curious what everyone would say if they included everything but the Imperial Race! So you can still craft their armors and stuff, but just not access the Race itself....

Would everyone then just start complaining about the lack of CE content?

  Asariasha

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/05/11
Posts: 206

1/30/14 5:25:45 AM#126

Originally posted by Brabbit1987

Originally posted by Asariasha

Your poverty pisses me off!

 

When you buy a box of cornflakes in the supermarket and get an extra pack of Rice Pops for buying the bigger box, or if you buy a car and get certain pay-configurations on top for choosing the more expensive version, absolutely no one is argueing. If this very traditional business model is used in online games, people start moaning, complaining and try to make a shitstorm out of it.

 

Get over it. This is how the world works and in this case it is only a few bucks. If you want something special, you have to pay for it. If you can't afford it, then you better start to work for it or simply begin saving for it.

Difference is, when you pay extra for more, you tend to get ... things that are not standard. Keyword, standard.

A race in a game that has been part of the series for some time all of a sudden costing extra when in the past it was standard is not good. Unique Mounts, pets, items ... are all not standard. A well known race that is suppose to be part of the game is standard.

 

Not correct. Zenimax never announced the Imperial as race. The Digital Imperial Edition simply is the answer to several players interest to play races outside of their given alliance. It is a good idea and I believe that many players will decide to get this package.

 

Originally posted by inemosz

Originally posted by Asariasha

Your poverty pisses me off!

 

When you buy a box of cornflakes in the supermarket and get an extra pack of Rice Pops for buying the bigger box, or if you buy a car and get certain pay-configurations on top for choosing the more expensive version, absolutely no one is argueing. If this very traditional business model is used in online games, people start moaning, complaining and try to make a shitstorm out of it.

 

Get over it. This is how the world works and in this case it is only a few bucks. If you want something special, you have to pay for it. If you can't afford it, then you better start to work for it or simply begin saving for it.

Sir, you are the perfect model of F2P player


Haha. Actually I am a P2P Fanboi. P2P gives a developer more freedom in planning future high quality content and is a great filter to ensure quality of the playerbase. In my opinion, the Digital Imperial Edition is a fair deal.

 

I simply am willing to pay for all the hard work and the hopefully great game that the Zenimax Team created. I'm just not a "greed is good" guy. If it is worth the bucks and if I'm interested in something, I buy it. That's all.

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2707

There... are... four... lights!

1/30/14 5:31:46 AM#127
Originally posted by Azaron_Nightblade
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Azaron_Nightblade

And feel free to blame WoW if it turns out there is indeed a cash shop.

Except that the WoW cash shop has only cosmetic stuff, pets and mounts, nothing else. No races.

But yeah, it's cool to hate on WoW, the ideal scapegoat...

Which I suspect would or will be the same content the ESO store would have.

There is nothing to indicate that they plan to sell races on it, so if they are the devil for having a Cash shop, well, they aren't the only one.

So you think the ability to unlock all races for all factions will remain exclusive to those who pre-purchased, , and the unique "imperial" race exclusive to those who have a collector edition?

That would be even worse than selling those features in a cash shop post-launch... talk about a game with "haves" vs "haves not".

Playing now: Archeage, WoW, Landmark, GW2

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  snake123433

Novice Member

Joined: 4/11/08
Posts: 1

1/30/14 5:44:39 AM#128
mhmm

  WikileaksEU

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/13
Posts: 104

1/30/14 5:45:16 AM#129
If they make it available for everyone the CE isn't worth much.
  MoLoK_

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/29/05
Posts: 309

1/30/14 5:53:57 AM#130
Originally posted by Sandio
Last few weeks people are whining that they can't play classes across factions and now people whine opposite.

I love whiners =)

 

What?

 

You could play classes across factions. Now you can play as any race in any faction, if you preorder. But you cant play Imperial unless you buy the CE or upgrade to it after release inte Zenimax cash shop.

What is reeeeeaaaallly strange is that you are still faction locked. You will never be able to PvE toghether with other factions. You are still faction locked.

 

Unless you will be able to switch faction in Zenimax cash shop. And of course you will be able to do that.

Box price, sub fee + cash shop for extra content.

This will seriously hurt the game. I was looking forward to it. Now its kinda obvious its going F2P within a year.

  inemosz

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/13/12
Posts: 381

1/30/14 6:42:18 AM#131
Originally posted by Azaron_Nightblade
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Azaron_Nightblade

And feel free to blame WoW if it turns out there is indeed a cash shop.

Except that the WoW cash shop has only cosmetic stuff, pets and mounts, nothing else. No races.

But yeah, it's cool to hate on WoW, the ideal scapegoat...

Which I suspect would or will be the same content the ESO store would have.

There is nothing to indicate that they plan to sell races on it, so if they are the devil for having a Cash shop, well, they aren't the only one.

I have nothing against WoW's cash shop, anyone who's ever played the game knows it isn't even anything new - it's been there all along, you just had to do it through the website instead of having an in-game interface.

You don't get to condemn one developer for doing something while letting another off the hook for doing the very same thing.

Sorry.

Check this out

"Can I upgrade to the Digital Imperial Edition?

Starting April 4th, 2014 all customers who pre-purchased the Digital Standard Edition can upgrade to the Digital Imperial Edition by visiting The Elder Scrolls Online Store (https://store.elderscrollsonline.com). "

http://help.elderscrollsonline.com/app/storefaq?region=UK

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3766

1/30/14 7:16:47 AM#132
Originally posted by asrlohz

 

Iselin... It's not part of the CE. This is actually a kind of cash shop. It's not exclusive to the CE owners. Say for example that you purchase the standard edition, if you then want to you can upgrade to the Digital CE. This can be done at anytime by anyone.

In WoW's CE your vanity pets and what not remain exclusive to owners of the made CEs. They don't allow you to purchase tiny Frostwyrms. And that's the point, after several years that pet will be cool and unique. But the Mudcrab won't be rare. Everyone will have it and the only thing the CE people have for show are the three physical items.

Upgrading a standard edition to a CE post-launch is not exactly rare. That option is there for the person who doesn't pick up the game at all now or someone who changes their mind and wants it later. I don't see that as being any sort of problem.

 

I'm sorry but I'm not seeing a cash shop. I'm seeing a CE that gives the buyer more for the extra cost of the CE than is typical.

 

There seem to be three separate issues getting all jumbled up in some posters rush to judgement:

1. Should there be any kind of CE?

2. How much extra should it cost?

3. What should you get for it?

 

And it seems to me that it's only people who disagree with the contents of the CE who are then bringing in 1 & 2 to call it a "cash shop."

 

 

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3766

1/30/14 7:21:16 AM#133
Originally posted by trisox
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by JeroKane
Originally posted by trisox

my biggest issue with it arent the preorder CE items themselves.

Usually you can see how developers are aiming to develop the game over it's lifetime. This one seems to be kinda like a "Singleplayer-fast-moneygrab-game" due to all the stuff they are currently pushing out. You know, Box price, Subscription Fee, Ingame Cash Shop AND a cashgrab CE Edition. All in all this seems like a very short "project" of Bethesda - just grabbing as much money as they can before killing off the game, going free to play or even worse: shutting down the servers.

All these things just point into that direction and i don't feel supporting them until the game truly proves it doesnt want to go this way.

Just my to cents, opinions are welcome! :)

QFT!

Except for the part in red that's not even remotely a "T"?

Im, sorry did i get that wrong? I'm pretty sure they announced an item-shop a while a go. So u will have Boxprice, Sub & Shop

Yes you did get it wrong. Unless you mean this item shop and think that this is what is considered an in-game cash shop? http://store.bethsoft.com/brands/the-elder-scrolls-online.html?brand=166

There is no "in game" cash shop. If you want to call the mugs and T's shop a cash shop, be my guest... but that's not what we usually mean by the term.

  Brabbit1987

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 653

1/30/14 7:43:54 AM#134
Originally posted by Asariasha

Originally posted by Brabbit1987

Originally posted by Asariasha

Your poverty pisses me off!

 

When you buy a box of cornflakes in the supermarket and get an extra pack of Rice Pops for buying the bigger box, or if you buy a car and get certain pay-configurations on top for choosing the more expensive version, absolutely no one is argueing. If this very traditional business model is used in online games, people start moaning, complaining and try to make a shitstorm out of it.

 

Get over it. This is how the world works and in this case it is only a few bucks. If you want something special, you have to pay for it. If you can't afford it, then you better start to work for it or simply begin saving for it.

Difference is, when you pay extra for more, you tend to get ... things that are not standard. Keyword, standard.

A race in a game that has been part of the series for some time all of a sudden costing extra when in the past it was standard is not good. Unique Mounts, pets, items ... are all not standard. A well known race that is suppose to be part of the game is standard.

 

Not correct. Zenimax never announced the Imperial as race. The Digital Imperial Edition simply is the answer to several players interest to play races outside of their given alliance. It is a good idea and I believe that many players will decide to get this package.

Actually I meant specifically the elder scrolls series. It's a standard race in the series.

Truth of the matter is, I had not even noticed it wasn't in ESO. I still don't think that makes it right either way. It's a race that should be available to everyone who purchases the game because it's a standard race in the series.

Many P2P players also complain about F2P games specifically because of the pay gates involved. Yet I keep seeing the same people who hate this kind of stuff defending it here. It makes no sense. You hate F2P because of the pay gates, but it's ok for a P2P game to do it instead?

If they are willing to do this .. how can you all be sure they wont add a cash shop. They lied already. Who says they won't do it again?

I don't know how you all overlook this crap that companies do and defend bad business practices.

At least when a game is F2P .. it's some what expected. It doesn't harm me in anyway because it's entirely my choice to pay for what I want. 

P2P ... I assume I payed for the entire game, and I assume the monthly fee covers future updates, excluding dlc / expansions. When a company all of a sudden breaks the whole idea of what a P2P game means to me, it really makes the P2P model look like total garbage.

This is exactly the reason why I have such issues with the P2P model. It's a total money grab and scam. You pay for all these things, and pay a monthly fee, just for them to betray your trust and eventually go F2P.

Screw that. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. I am not stupid enough to keep being fooled.

  Joejc7135

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/06/13
Posts: 204

1/30/14 8:19:07 AM#135

I heavily disagree with the decsions they are making. Some are downplaying it as no big deal but I disagree with that...perhaps the few extra dollars isn't a big deal to me...but the principal here is whats important...they have already blatantly lied to players before the game is even out...it shows their true nature. Listen kids, when you grow up you realize talk is cheap...actions are what matter...Zenimax said they wouldn't gate content from subs...they said races would stay seperated. Now they are gating content and selling basic features behind a CE paywall.

 

It's a shame but because it's elder scrolls you will still have an army of ball licking fabois armed with daddys credit card ready to defend their chosen game to the death. It's like the harder companies try to screw them, the more excited and loyal it makes them. Truly sickening.

  SuperNick

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/10/07
Posts: 399

1/30/14 8:26:22 AM#136

The game will fail because someone who isn't an economist and someone who doesn't develop AAA games for a living on a forum says it to be true? No thanks, i'll watch the numbers.

And then comes June where Bethesda publish record sales figures and make back twice the money they've spent on box sales alone.

Numbers speak, forum speculation doesn't.

  Joejc7135

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/06/13
Posts: 204

1/30/14 8:34:22 AM#137
Originally posted by SuperNick

The game will fail because someone who isn't an economist and someone who doesn't develop AAA games for a living on a forum says it to be true? No thanks, i'll watch the numbers.

And then comes June where Bethesda publish record sales figures and make back twice the money they've spent on box sales alone.

Numbers speak, forum speculation doesn't.

There is no question in my mind the game will be a success in box sales. But as we all know an mmo's true success is measure in retention. This is where the game will fail, especially if they keep on adding "extras" for a cost...right now it's just the CE...but I would bet my kidney it's not the last "Pay us again" feature they will add.

 

Also you should really rethink your position on whos opinion you take seriously...titles often mean next to nothing in the real world....or did you miss how right all the expert "economists" where during the financial collapse and housing bubble bust. Just take each opinion on its own merits....I would agree with you that this game doesn't seem like it will fail..but will die slowly while milking every dime out of fanboys as it dies.

  Calven

Novice Member

Joined: 7/14/12
Posts: 152

1/30/14 8:51:19 AM#138
Originally posted by SuperNick

The game will fail because someone who isn't an economist and someone who doesn't develop AAA games for a living on a forum says it to be true? No thanks, i'll watch the numbers.

And then comes June where Bethesda publish record sales figures and make back twice the money they've spent on box sales alone.

Numbers speak, forum speculation doesn't.

Let me remind you of the countless AAA games who thought just like you did. Initially they sold well, most MMOs do, but a few months later they begin to crack, servers are taken down, employees are fired and eventually a F2P option is installed.. As you say, numbers speak, and the numbers suggest that this game have may follow the same trail that almost every AAA MMO since WoW have followed. I certainly hope  the game does well, even though I no longer will be playing it. Only an asshole would wish for a game to fail because he wasn't satisfied with the decisions made.

  red_cruiser

Novice Member

Joined: 9/12/07
Posts: 442

1/30/14 8:53:43 AM#139

Support the game with a little extra money, get some cosmetic perks to go along with it. 

Stop being entitled brats.  If you like the game, support it.  If you don't like it, then don't buy it.

"But it's not cosmetic... it's an entire RACE!!"  ...You people do realize we are talking about an Elder Scrolls game, right?

Beyond that, have you even sat down and thought what the three factions would have looked like if Breton, Nords and Imperials were all basic races?  Oh, that's the start of a real interesting game right there.  At that point, might as well just call it Brittania Online.

  SuperNick

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/10/07
Posts: 399

1/30/14 8:58:58 AM#140
Originally posted by Calven
Originally posted by SuperNick

The game will fail because someone who isn't an economist and someone who doesn't develop AAA games for a living on a forum says it to be true? No thanks, i'll watch the numbers.

And then comes June where Bethesda publish record sales figures and make back twice the money they've spent on box sales alone.

Numbers speak, forum speculation doesn't.

Let me remind you of the countless AAA games who thought just like you did. Initially they sold well, most MMOs do, but a few months later they begin to crack, servers are taken down, employees are fired and eventually a F2P option is installed.. As you say, numbers speak, and the numbers suggest that this game have may follow the same trail that almost every AAA MMO since WoW have followed. I certainly hope  the game does well, even though I no longer will be playing it. Only an asshole would wish for a game to fail because he wasn't satisfied with the decisions made.

What countless AAA games? Single player games only target box sales.

If we're talking MMOs, what's your definition of a fail? SWTOR is regarded as the second most successful MMO now, it's literally pouring with cash. GW2 enjoys a dedicated fanbase, FFXIV is doing great, LOTRO is doing really well and even Rift is enjoying a lot of success. If you want to talk about games like Tabula Rasa, sure, that was a complete fail but let's be honest it was a fail from day one.

Sure MMOs close down but that's called MMO lifecycle. Some last longer than others, eventually old ones close down for new ones. Even Warhammer which was an incredibly bad game enjoyed multiple years and decent profits.

Since when did going F2P mean "your game is dead and bleeding".

Like I said, numbers talk. And the numbers suggest SWTOR is enjoying a hugely successful model since their change of direction, despite what everyone thinks about it.

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