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75 posts found
  Coldren

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/19/08
Posts: 444

1/29/14 11:47:15 AM#41
Originally posted by rodarin
No to play Imperial you need to buy the COLLECTORS EDITION pre order, which is quite a bit more.

I am aware to play as an Imperial you need the "Imperial" edition, yes.. $20 bucks more for the digital edition, but it's not the only thing you get.

The post I was replying to was about the collectors edition PHYSICAL box, which was 100 more. They were complaining about that cost difference. I was merely pointing out that the digitial editions are much closer in price and offer the same benefits, minus the statue and maps.

My apologies for the poor phrasing.

  killion81

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/31/06
Posts: 967

1/29/14 11:47:19 AM#42
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

I'm amazed that there are so many sheep not understanding the psychological tactic involved in this move...

Enjoy playing a Nord, but your friends don't play Ebonheart, and you want to also play with them? No choice, pre-order. If you join later, you'll have to use whatever cash shop is coming to achieve the same.

It's very subtle yet I believe it will be quite efficient.

It's like if WoW offered to play Tauren on alliance side or Night Elf on horde side for $20.

 

I'm okay with additional races and classes being added in expansion packs for P2P games. I'm NOT okay with races and/or class "pay to win" restrictions being implemented even before the game is even released, hell, even before the NDA is lifted!

 

That smells foul. It's tactics fit for a F2P games (and which would be okay then), but applied to a P2P game.

 

It is amazing, isn't it?  It makes me sad because TESO is going to sell some huge number of boxes (with a huge percentage of them collector's editions), the game is going to turn out mediocre, they will probably go full cash shop with a box price by month 6 and it will be considered a "successful" game because they successfully fleeced a ton of gamers.  After this huge "success", other companies will follow suit and push the line a little further each time.

 

We're watching idiots destroy the hobby we have enjoyed for years.  It was bound to happen though.  It happens to pretty much everything that's worth a damn.

  rodarin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/21/10
Posts: 586

 
OP  1/29/14 11:50:45 AM#43
Originally posted by dontadow

 

My apologies. I am so warn out of all these "pay to win" rants. It sounds like people who run around spitting political slanders and have no real idea what it means. What you've told me is that they have included a way that for extra money allows you to be any race/class comibination.  Can you verify that there is a winning race/class combination that is needed to win the game. Does this lead directly or indirectly to a win condition. If you claim pay to win, then how does this effect the win?

 

I said I would let the pay to win crowd figure that out. It is borderline depending on how racials skills work with some class skills that others dont have in their arsenal. But it gives them an ADVANTAGE because it gives them MORE options. Semantics maybe but in a SUBSCRIPTION based game that is just bullshit.

 

There are a lot of arguments and debates to be had, the bottom line is they LIED. Go look up what they said about subscriptions and why they felt this game would be best served with having one. Then look at what theyre doing now. Theyre either closing off stuff once the game is released (not allowing anyone that doesnt pre order access t these 'perks') or theyre gating this stuff behind a real life cash door (allowing people to buy these 'perk' after the game is live.)

 

Either way it is in DIRET contradiction for every reason and excuse they gave for having a subscription model.

 

If this were a free to play or even a buy to play I would have ZERO issues with this. Its BECAUSE it is a subscription based game, compounded by their initial rhetoric that makes it so 'priceless'.

 

I was one of the few who said they already had a cash shop in place, that theory was shouted down, well looks like I was right. Or at least on the right track. All it shows me now is theyre going to do everything every one else does in a cash shop game, and probably more because they have the balls to do it WHILE it also has a subscription. 

  CazNeerg

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/04
Posts: 2220

"So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb." Dark Helmet

1/29/14 11:50:45 AM#44
Here is one thing to remember; they already announced that part of endgame is being able to play your character through the other faction's storylines.  Which means they already had any race in any faction, they just made you play to 50 to unlock it on a character by character basis.  The pre-order just let's you start out with the combo you want, rather than making you level to 50 to get it.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

  User Deleted
1/29/14 11:52:59 AM#45
Originally posted by killion81
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

I'm amazed that there are so many sheep not understanding the psychological tactic involved in this move...

Enjoy playing a Nord, but your friends don't play Ebonheart, and you want to also play with them? No choice, pre-order. If you join later, you'll have to use whatever cash shop is coming to achieve the same.

It's very subtle yet I believe it will be quite efficient.

It's like if WoW offered to play Tauren on alliance side or Night Elf on horde side for $20.

 

I'm okay with additional races and classes being added in expansion packs for P2P games. I'm NOT okay with races and/or class "pay to win" restrictions being implemented even before the game is even released, hell, even before the NDA is lifted!

 

That smells foul. It's tactics fit for a F2P games (and which would be okay then), but applied to a P2P game.

 

It is amazing, isn't it?  It makes me sad because TESO is going to sell some huge number of boxes (with a huge percentage of them collector's editions), the game is going to turn out mediocre, they will probably go full cash shop with a box price by month 6 and it will be considered a "successful" game because they successfully fleeced a ton of gamers.  After this huge "success", other companies will follow suit and push the line a little further each time.

 

We're watching idiots destroy the hobby we have enjoyed for years.  It was bound to happen though.  It happens to pretty much everything that's worth a damn.

It's worse when we clearly have a shill(s) on the forums pissing on everyone's back and telling them it's raining.

  Coldren

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/19/08
Posts: 444

1/29/14 11:54:07 AM#46
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

Nice apologist job trying to compare apples and oranges. From what I know (and I know it well since I'm playing that game), you still can't play a blood elf as alliance in WoW, no matter how much you pay. The races are still faction restricted. There's absolutely no way to unlock Blood Elf for alliance or Night Elf for horde.

Your agument was that the ability to play any faction as any race was a cash grab. I was merely stating that there are other equivellent cash grabs, (which don't even give you the benefit of keeping your race, as you pointed out) that have been going on for some time now.. Hence, the nothing new.

No you can't play blood elf Alliance member... Yet.. Don't think Blizzard isn't likely thinking about it. The only thing stopping them is actually lore, because in the WoW-verse, Orcs for example have always been Horde only. The TES lore is a bit more flexible.

So, I say again, nothing new. Not apologizing for it because I honestly don't care. I have had the privilage to play the game, and this sort of minor issue does nothing to change my enjoyment of it. Even if I didn't pre-order and get these benefits, I still would have played.

If people want to make this the issue for them that stops them from getting it, by all means, go nuts. I just think it's a poor reason to, when it's all been done before. Hence, hate for the right reasons. Like you hate faction PvP, or you don't think it's free-form enough like Skyrim, or you don't like the graphics or something.

  User Deleted
1/29/14 11:55:19 AM#47
Originally posted by CazNeerg
Here is one thing to remember; they already announced that part of endgame is being able to play your character through the other faction's storylines.  Which means they already had any race in any faction, they just made you play to 50 to unlock it on a character by character basis.  The pre-order just let's you start out with the combo you want, rather than making you level to 50 to get it.

Except you are exploring them with other players from your faction, not as that other faction.  The main repercussions will be in PvP, but it might also apply to endgame PvE in terms of preferred racials.

  keithian

Elite Member

Joined: 5/20/06
Posts: 3104

1/29/14 11:57:59 AM#48
Originally posted by mari3k

Theres an other thread about this, whats with that stupid headline ??

 

THREAD CLOSED !!!

----------------------------------

This ^^^^^^ I think the mods are stretched too thin.

There Is Always Hope!

  rockin_ufo

Novice Member

Joined: 6/10/06
Posts: 379

Zoraï

1/29/14 12:00:12 PM#49
Originally posted by CazNeerg
Here is one thing to remember; they already announced that part of endgame is being able to play your character through the other faction's storylines.  Which means they already had any race in any faction, they just made you play to 50 to unlock it on a character by character basis.  The pre-order just let's you start out with the combo you want, rather than making you level to 50 to get it.

No one actually cares about that, besides DAoC fanatics (but really, racial pride hasn't really been a thing in any ES game anyway. Argonian Nerevarine? OK). No it's the fact that if I don't pre-order, which I personally can't afford in my current economic situation, when I do join a few months down the line and want to play with friends in a different race I have to PAY extra to do it. That's grade A bullshit and I'll just avoid this game.

Whenever i step outside, somebody claims to see the light
It seems to me that all of us have lost our patience.
'cause everyone thinks they're right,
And nobody thinks that there just might
Be more than one road to our final destination--

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 3260

There... are... four... lights!

1/29/14 12:03:29 PM#50
Originally posted by Coldren
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

Nice apologist job trying to compare apples and oranges. From what I know (and I know it well since I'm playing that game), you still can't play a blood elf as alliance in WoW, no matter how much you pay. The races are still faction restricted. There's absolutely no way to unlock Blood Elf for alliance or Night Elf for horde.

Your agument was that the ability to play any faction as any race was a cash grab. I was merely stating that there are other equivellent cash grabs, (which don't even give you the benefit of keeping your race, as you pointed out) that have been going on for some time now.. Hence, the nothing new.

Realm transfers are something that exist in MMOs ages, and beside the fact that they make some money for the developer, the reason they cost something is to avoid people switching factions all the time in order to always play with the "king of the hill". GW2 has similar restrictions on server transfers for the same reasons.

Not to mention that in WoW, if I want a Blood Elf Paladin, I can just roll one, and I can even give him hierlooms I earned with my alliance main, at no additional cost.

As I said, you compare apples and oranges. Here, before the game is even released, you have to buy the right to play races in all factions, as an additional cost added on top of the box price and the monthly subscription, and a restriction you can't bypass in another way.

Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2, SotA

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO, SW:TOR and GW2.

----------------

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write. Forgive me if I sometimes forget that there are all kind of people on Internet forums, not only intelligent and cultivated ones...

  SpottyGekko

Elite Member

Joined: 9/26/04
Posts: 3519

1/29/14 12:08:41 PM#51

There's no such thing as "a game should offer x, y and z for that price".

 

There's only the way things were, and the way they are now. These are usually not the same (specially in Retail), and most definitely will be different to the way things will be in future.

 

At any rate, I highly doubt that the pre-order announcements will have ANY negative effect on TESO's sales. If anything, it will INCREASE the total sales, given that the NDA is still in place 

  Joejc7135

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/06/13
Posts: 222

1/29/14 12:15:14 PM#52

It's not even a potential p2w issue for me....I'm just so tired of these pricing gimmicks and pre-order benefits....just sell me the damn game for a price...even charge a sub if you update frequently with content. Just gimme a price and stop adding little costs whenever you feel like it. It rubs me the wrong way because you know they spend serious time, effort and resources figuring out exactly what they can get away with and what will cause an uproar. It's like god forbid they just sell me a box and it ends up giving me some value...can't have that now can we. If it's worth it to you great! Go for it, have fun...I won't buy it though and if they start doing it with all mmos...I'll just play other games. They need us, not the other way around. Some of you should remember that.

  Coldren

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/19/08
Posts: 444

1/29/14 12:17:29 PM#53
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

Realm transfers are something that exist in MMOs ages, and beside the fact that they make some money for the developer, the reason they cost something is to avoid people switching factions all the time in order to always play with the "king of the hill". GW2 has similar restrictions on server transfers for the same reasons.

Not to mention that in WoW, if I want a Blood Elf Paladin, I can just roll one, and I can even give him hierlooms I earned with my alliance main, at no additional cost.

Small point, again for the sake of accuracy (And so the misnomer doesn't spread among those with shorter attention spans), they are not locking out classes.  Races and Race/Alliance combinations only.

And  I completely agree that making money a barrier to prevent faction-switching is the ultimate intent, and a sensible one.

If you pre-order, no matter what edition, you are get the ability to play any race in any alliance. You only have to pay extra if you want the Imperial race. I'm sure they'll eventually have these options purchaseable  separately in the future for those who don't pre-order. 

It's basically a pre-order perk, that will be available for purchase later. 

May I ask you (And all those upset by this issue) a hypothetical question in all earnest?

If ZOS had never put the any race/any faction and the new Imperial race in the pre-orders/Imperial Editions, and instead released them, say, 6 months later as a MTx option, saying "Hey, we know everyone wanted to be able to do this, and 6 months later, we decided to let you.. so go buy it if you want it!", would you have been as equally offended? Is the fact that they are allowing it the issue, or the fact that you have to pay for it? What if they had made it part of an x-pac? Would that be just as bad?

 

  Miblet

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/19/10
Posts: 334

1/29/14 12:18:05 PM#54
Originally posted by SpottyGekko

At any rate, I highly doubt that the pre-order announcements will have ANY negative effect on TESO's sales. If anything, it will INCREASE the total sales, given that the NDA is still in place 

If it had a negative effect on their sales I would be amazed, as before this their sales were 0 ;)

It might scare away some though, particularly those who were on the fence, it's made me think about it more (due to blatant policy changes regarding payment for in game bonuses and the future of the game). Usually a game is launched before it's marketing is either switched or revealed as a sham.

  killion81

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/31/06
Posts: 967

1/29/14 12:27:44 PM#55
Originally posted by Coldren

If ZOS had never put the any race/any faction and the new Imperial race in the pre-orders/Imperial Editions, and instead released them, say, 6 months later as a MTx option, saying "Hey, we know everyone wanted to be able to do this, and 6 months later, we decided to let you.. so go buy it if you want it!", would you have been as equally offended? Is the fact that they are allowing it the issue, or the fact that you have to pay for it? What if they had made it part of an x-pac? Would that be just as bad?

 

You'd think that's why you pay a subscription fee each month, for the development of new content.  Yes, I would be pretty upset in your hypothetical situation.  I would also be upset if they released very little for content and then announced a purchasable expansion with tons of content.  Once again, they justified subscription costs as a way to allow them to constantly add content to the game.  They basically backed themselves into a corner here by being shady.

  User Deleted
1/29/14 12:32:12 PM#56
Originally posted by Coldren
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

Realm transfers are something that exist in MMOs ages, and beside the fact that they make some money for the developer, the reason they cost something is to avoid people switching factions all the time in order to always play with the "king of the hill". GW2 has similar restrictions on server transfers for the same reasons.

Not to mention that in WoW, if I want a Blood Elf Paladin, I can just roll one, and I can even give him hierlooms I earned with my alliance main, at no additional cost.

Small point, again for the sake of accuracy (And so the misnomer doesn't spread among those with shorter attention spans), they are not locking out classes.  Races and Race/Alliance combinations only.

And  I completely agree that making money a barrier to prevent faction-switching is the ultimate intent, and a sensible one.

If you pre-order, no matter what edition, you are get the ability to play any race in any alliance. You only have to pay extra if you want the Imperial race. I'm sure they'll eventually have these options purchaseable  separately in the future for those who don't pre-order. 

It's basically a pre-order perk, that will be available for purchase later. 

May I ask you (And all those upset by this issue) a hypothetical question in all earnest?

If ZOS had never put the any race/any faction and the new Imperial race in the pre-orders/Imperial Editions, and instead released them, say, 6 months later as a MTx option, saying "Hey, we know everyone wanted to be able to do this, and 6 months later, we decided to let you.. so go buy it if you want it!", would you have been as equally offended? Is the fact that they are allowing it the issue, or the fact that you have to pay for it? What if they had made it part of an x-pac? Would that be just as bad?

 

 

WoW hasn't locked out classes for factions since Vanilla.  The only thing that would change by being Blood Elf Paladin on Alliance is your racials, since Draenei, Dwarf and Human can already be Paladins for the Alliance.  So what he said was an exact like for like -  Races and Race / Alliance combinations only.  

While some consider WoW racials serious business - everyone knows you should PvP as Undead! (small life tap and extra cc break) and Pandaren for max stats in PvE! (250 more primary...) - the racials in ESO are far more significant and gives access to a larger pool of skills akin to the class choices.

 

To answer your latter question, yes. It pretty much spits in the face of the entire point of the game, which was the conflict between the three factions.  Now its just 3 random groups fighting for no reason - much like WvWvW in GW2.

  Stizzled

Tipster

Joined: 9/13/07
Posts: 1169

Kill Your Heroes

1/29/14 12:35:55 PM#57

Just hearing the phrase "Explorer's Pack" screams cash shop to me. Makes me think back to the news we got about a cash shop for account services and "other fun stuff" that according to ZOS was a misquote. I call bullshit, there will be a cash shop in this game and this is a taste of the kind of "fun stuff" they're going to put in it.

 

So, anyone who doesn't pre-order doesn't need to worry. They'll offer this Explorer's Pack as an account upgrade at some point.

  rodarin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/21/10
Posts: 586

 
OP  1/29/14 12:37:34 PM#58
Originally posted by Coldren
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

Realm transfers are something that exist in MMOs ages, and beside the fact that they make some money for the developer, the reason they cost something is to avoid people switching factions all the time in order to always play with the "king of the hill". GW2 has similar restrictions on server transfers for the same reasons.

Not to mention that in WoW, if I want a Blood Elf Paladin, I can just roll one, and I can even give him hierlooms I earned with my alliance main, at no additional cost.

Small point, again for the sake of accuracy (And so the misnomer doesn't spread among those with shorter attention spans), they are not locking out classes.  Races and Race/Alliance combinations only.

And  I completely agree that making money a barrier to prevent faction-switching is the ultimate intent, and a sensible one.

If you pre-order, no matter what edition, you are get the ability to play any race in any alliance. You only have to pay extra if you want the Imperial race. I'm sure they'll eventually have these options purchaseable  separately in the future for those who don't pre-order. 

It's basically a pre-order perk, that will be available for purchase later. 

May I ask you (And all those upset by this issue) a hypothetical question in all earnest?

If ZOS had never put the any race/any faction and the new Imperial race in the pre-orders/Imperial Editions, and instead released them, say, 6 months later as a MTx option, saying "Hey, we know everyone wanted to be able to do this, and 6 months later, we decided to let you.. so go buy it if you want it!", would you have been as equally offended? Is the fact that they are allowing it the issue, or the fact that you have to pay for it? What if they had made it part of an x-pac? Would that be just as bad?

 

If the expansion was the same price for everyone then yes put it in an expansion.

 

No matter what semantics game you want to play or how you want to word it if you pay MORE you get MORE. That is absolutely fine in a free to play or a buy to play game, they have to make money some how. But in a subscription game it doesnt fly. Or at least shouldnt.

 

So it basically negates the subscription at this point and puts the onus directly on how much cash you spend beyond that basic subscription.

 

Spend it now in pre order or after in a cash shop.

 

Just what is that subscription getting me? If I sub now or in 6 months which will be better? Will the game have more content now or then? Will NOT playing 'hurt' me? If I start in 6 months and spend 500 bux in the cash shop were does that put me? 

 

Theyre catering to the cash shop crowd under the guise of a subscription worthy game. Its a frigging joke. No one is ordering these pre orders for the map or the book or the statue (well  maybe some for the statue) but the VAST majority are ordering for the head start (which should be enough on its own) but also the ability to unlock the races as well as an instant mount and the rings that will give them an instant advantage in the  game over someone who just downloads it on day one.

 

Again we can play semantics all we want and if getting to a place faster or gaining points for skills/traits faster is an advantage. But the point is NOT EVERYONE has access to that, at least not without paying extra.

 

Why not just give cosmetic fluff? Which was what people actually thought they were selling. Nothing wrong with that. 

 

The way they can sort of get away with it is because there are only 4 classes anyway and all races play them. So they dont really have an advantage that way. But if a Breton Ebonhart templar gets something a breton daggerfall (the allaince theyr supposed to be locked into) templar doesnt then that raises a red flag.

 

ll I know is it saved me 60 bucks.

  Nadia

Tipster

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11858

1/29/14 12:38:10 PM#59
Originally posted by evilastro

 Now its just 3 random groups fighting for no reason - much like WvWvW in GW2.

guild war!   (not the anet game)

  Senan

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/30/04
Posts: 816

"Blue, blue."

1/29/14 12:38:44 PM#60
Originally posted by Coldren
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

Realm transfers are something that exist in MMOs ages, and beside the fact that they make some money for the developer, the reason they cost something is to avoid people switching factions all the time in order to always play with the "king of the hill". GW2 has similar restrictions on server transfers for the same reasons.

Not to mention that in WoW, if I want a Blood Elf Paladin, I can just roll one, and I can even give him hierlooms I earned with my alliance main, at no additional cost.

Small point, again for the sake of accuracy (And so the misnomer doesn't spread among those with shorter attention spans), they are not locking out classes.  Races and Race/Alliance combinations only.

And  I completely agree that making money a barrier to prevent faction-switching is the ultimate intent, and a sensible one.

If you pre-order, no matter what edition, you are get the ability to play any race in any alliance. You only have to pay extra if you want the Imperial race. I'm sure they'll eventually have these options purchaseable  separately in the future for those who don't pre-order. 

It's basically a pre-order perk, that will be available for purchase later. 

May I ask you (And all those upset by this issue) a hypothetical question in all earnest?

If ZOS had never put the any race/any faction and the new Imperial race in the pre-orders/Imperial Editions, and instead released them, say, 6 months later as a MTx option, saying "Hey, we know everyone wanted to be able to do this, and 6 months later, we decided to let you.. so go buy it if you want it!", would you have been as equally offended? Is the fact that they are allowing it the issue, or the fact that you have to pay for it? What if they had made it part of an x-pac? Would that be just as bad?

 

The ability to pick the faction/race combination you want is something that I'd imagine most would expect to be a standard game feature in a P2P game. I think we all expected that there would eventually be a cash shop element to this game (what AAA game doesn't have one to some extent, P2P or otherwise?) but to make something that should absolutely be part of the box price/subscription fee a pre-order perk that will inevitably be a micro-transaction option likely in the very near future (maybe even at release) is a dick move -- especially when you consider how many people wanted this from the very beginning, but are now expected to either pre-order or pay for the privilege. And to top it off, if you want access to the last launch race, well, you're paying extra for that too.

It just comes off as a sleazy money grab and it doesn't exactly instill you with confidence about the company.  I have no problem with CE bonuses like mounts, cosmetics, and other perks like that or a headstart for those who choose to pre-order, but prominent game features shouldn't be a part of either of them, imo.

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