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News & Features Discussion  » [Column] General: Do MMOs Need More Danger?

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72 posts found

Novice Member

Joined: 4/15/06
Posts: 86

1/23/14 5:17:14 PM#41
The real issue with pvp is that people scream for balance when pvp should always and forever be rock paper scissors. a good player will beat a class that is better then his. DAOC was R P S  and had a very advent following so was shadowbane and ultima. p v p is not ever balanced and should not be. when games try to force a balanced then the game dies out fast.

Novice Member

Joined: 7/18/10
Posts: 3213

Veni, Vidi, Converti

1/23/14 5:24:36 PM#42
danger = risk assessment = an interesting choice to make especially when someone else chose unwisely!

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/07
Posts: 2111

1/23/14 6:40:57 PM#43
I'm with crhis. player looting makes games like dayz and darkfall way more compelling.
It anoys me that people think of dayz as perma death, its not like you have exp/stats you are losing. its only your items, the same as full loot.

My blog:


Advanced Member

Joined: 11/06/08
Posts: 521

1/23/14 7:15:18 PM#44

I think things like player looting and permadeath are great for some MMOs.  But it is most certainly a niche.  I mean that in a good way.  Niche gameplay has the benefit of being focused on a very specific playstyle, and it can allow the game to really polish that experience.  


So some MMOs need more danger, but not all.  I think a variety of more succesful niche games in the MMO space would do a lot to keep the market healthy.  They won't replace games like WoW, but WoW has pushed the MMO market too far in one direction and while there is room for all kinds of games I would be happy to see a bigger variety. 


Even though I think that kind of game is good for the market, I would never play a game seriously that has permadeath.  Mostly because I enjoy the process of building and developing characters and that attachment to the character tends to be the strongest factor that pulls me back into the game.  When there is no attachment, I tend to jump to the next new thing fairly quickly.


Novice Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1492

1/23/14 8:03:56 PM#45

I'd like some more risk and danger but only if I opt-in to it. There should be some safer areas of the world. Also danger should be reasonable. A noob getting ganked by a bunch of high levels in the noob zone isn't "danger" it's just stupid. Danger implies a risk which can conceivably  be avoided or at least minimized through smart play.



Elite Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 6565

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

1/23/14 8:08:18 PM#46

as long as there is not full loot pvp, yes.... mmos need a truckload of danger.


MMO devs really need to take some lessons and ideas from Dark Souls and Demon Souls when it comes to danger and even combat mechanics.


Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/11/04
Posts: 159

1/23/14 9:36:10 PM#47

the trouble with pvp IS internet speed ,so oyu have 100mbps and you play with people who have dsl.woo that is fun. i remember ffxi ,you could not get rare mobs,why cause they pop and die before they even appeared on screen. than yo have ptw games , you have farmers who  look for easy wins.yeah uo was great you log in could not leave town as high levels camped out side to kill newbies.pvp attack you while fightening mobs,basically pvp are for most part cowards.

i played this one game,the introduced kingdoms and lands, and you fought for the land,it came down to 2 kingdoms,1 was full of pvp'ers an otehr was non pvpers.after 2 weeks the pvp'ers were kicked out of every piece of land,why cause they really did not know how to fight.they were so used to attacking people in combat or low levels they did not know how to fight anyone head on and same level.


Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/11/04
Posts: 159

1/23/14 9:38:20 PM#48
Originally posted by iridescence

I'd like some more risk and danger but only if I opt-in to it. There should be some safer areas of the world. Also danger should be reasonable. A noob getting ganked by a bunch of high levels in the noob zone isn't "danger" it's just stupid. Danger implies a risk which can conceivably  be avoided or at least minimized through smart play.

 that want happen cause pvp want to gank,they want to be able to kill noobs.

they do not want risks,they want to win,and gank is bet way to ensure they win



Novice Member

Joined: 8/29/05
Posts: 1105

1/23/14 9:48:57 PM#49

I really miss having a MMO where PvE and PvP zones were not separated.  I didn't mind too much at first, but there is no sense of danger.  I'm not sure about losing everything I worked for, though.  I'd try a game like that, but so far none of them have appealed to me (as far as gameplay and graphics go). 


Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/24/06
Posts: 44

1/23/14 10:37:34 PM#50
Yes ffa full loot sandboxes ftw.


Advanced Member

Joined: 6/15/10
Posts: 89

1/23/14 10:54:57 PM#51
Originally posted by Superman0X

The basic problem is a lack of understanding... which is also show in this article.


Games do no need more danger, they need greater challenge. There is a difference. One extreme is to simply turn a game into a virtual russian roulette, which is extremely dangerous, and may even be extremenly thrilling, but is not very challenging. The other is to turn a game into a virtual chess match, which can be extremely challenging, but is not very thrilling. What people are really looking for is gameplay that is both thriling (sense of risk) as well as challenging (the feeling that you can improve the odds with skill).



Every now and then I read a post which makes me rethink my position very thoroughly. Your post is such a rare gem. And I holeheartly agree with your view.  In games there should be more than just meaningless danger or challenge for challenge's sake. People generally are more complex beings than most developers might think. And games should reflect a bit of that complexity. Too much from one thing and too little of others is most probably the best way to fail to deliver compelling gameplay for longer periods. It's about balance, meaning and reason.


Novice Member

Joined: 1/30/08
Posts: 1221

1/23/14 11:17:48 PM#52

It's not the "danger" that sells these things, but the ability to gank people.

Some people get off doing that. Most don't.

R.I.P. City of Heroes and my 17 characters there

  User Deleted
1/23/14 11:22:16 PM#53

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/14/05
Posts: 1134

INTJ, fun is fun except when it's not

1/24/14 1:54:03 AM#54
Yes but danger doesn't have to come only via the threat of pvp.


Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/19/08
Posts: 2115

1/24/14 1:56:55 AM#55
I love to be solo up to end game. But this does not mean at all I just want to run toward end game just hitting left/right.

Novice Member

Joined: 1/24/14
Posts: 3

1/24/14 2:54:23 AM#56

I miss the old mmos when you got a New piece of armor and you had been working Your ass for a long time to either gather the materials needed for the Craft or getting the Money for it. And it wasnt even the top gear in the game.

Miss the old feeling of actual reward, now everything is easy, log in for a few hours, farm the same stuff or same Dungeon every day or week and get Your items like everyone else.

Miss the feeling of actual danger, and risk. Out farming mobs either solo or Group, and farming xp, diede 1 time and lost more xp than youve earned that day.

And what i miss the most is the PvP system from Lineage 2 in the old days, imho i think that is the best pvp system ever made, was a risk to kill someone, but the person u killed could drop gear (very low chance) but when u killed u got karma that wasnt so easy to get rid of, and if u got killed yourself With karma then it was almost certain you were gonne drop an item.

There is no risk in Dying in the "New" mmos, you only pay a few gold in repairs, and Money doesnt even matter in the New mmos. Because everything is Bound to Your char, so have to get a drop from a boss in the instance usally or buy from special vendors for raid currency.

Also sick and tired of almost every New mmo got factions and shit, everyone should be on the same map, and for the sake of pvp, remove all pvp maps, and introduce Clan or Guilds war system, so they can declare war on each other and stuff like that, always makes it more risky to go somewhere to pve, and it promotes teamplay too, going alone can be Dangerous in different areas.


Novice Member

Joined: 2/07/12
Posts: 192

1/24/14 7:50:39 AM#57

DayZ is popular because zombies and perma death games are a fad right now and the only way to make a vampire game even moderately interesting is with perma death.  Also these games have short play cycles, you can play for 20 minutes and your up to speed and can do stuff its much more like League of Legends than an MMORPG.  

I played Rust and Nether for a while and they are fun games to pick up and sink a few hours but your not going to get the full MMORPG experience from that kinda of game because you simply can't put that much content into a perma death game or people wont enjoy it, since they will never get to access the content.


Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/27/12
Posts: 322

Why is it said that the road to hell is paved with good intentions? Is there a shortage of bad ones?

1/24/14 8:04:27 AM#58

Its sad when we talk about difficulty in an MMORPG with pvp as the reference.


MMORPGs were designed for players to work together to accomplish goals and create communities. PVP was a side bet a way to have players have friendly matches.. this has gone to hell in a hand basket .


Players scream for balance in a game setting that is all about griefing and acting an ass. 1 on 1 fights are a joke as they are very rare most fights that happen in pvp are 3+ attacking a lone target.  That destroys the concept of a fair fight.. so quit whining about balance. 


pvp should have stayed in the FPS games where they started. When they were brought to the MMORPG the pvp experience should have remained separate from the PVE experience. Blizzard pretty much maintained that until the great gimme nerf of Burning Crusade.


This is why i like what Citadel of Sorcery is doing.. you are a PVE player... If you want to pvp there's an arena you can go to .. its not part of the main story world.  If you want pvp make a pvp game.. MMORPGs are not the place for them to have "balance"



Played: UO, LotR, WoW, SWG, DDO, AoC, EVE, Warhammer, TF2, EQ2, SWTOR, TSW, CSS, KF, L4D, AoW, WoT

Playing: The Secret World until Citadel of Sorcery goes into Alpha testing.

Tired of: Linear quest games, dailies, and dumbed down games

Anticipating:Citadel of Sorcery


Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/28/13
Posts: 28

1/24/14 8:20:39 AM#59

The best games had it figured out... its not the amount of danger or the risk of other players.  It's the accomplishments of teamwork and a sense of skill.


tab target games are mostly button mashers and in pvp those with the highest level and best gear always win.  they've taken skill and team work out of the game which is where the fun went with it. Casual players and players with no skill whined so much that the changed it so that all they have to do is become a wallet warrior and have instant win.



Quit asking for more difficulty and risk and ask for more skill based and teamwork driven game play.  To me the perfect example of pvp was Fury the game that didn't last long because casual players didn't like the fact that a level 10 could kill a level 60 because the level 10 had skill and the level 60 didn't. Games like World of Warcraft in its gold era had it so that in pve you had to work as a team and come up with stratagies to beat raid dungeons which not everyone could do and in pvp you had to have some skill and teamwork to win. Sadly even they gave in to the casual and no skill players and went down the drain.


I think that characters that have to actually aim a cursor and fight with the mouse and use a combination of skills to survive with exact timing and work together so that you and your team pull off a fight is what needs to happen.  Closest I can come to that example is Tera, it's not a perfect game and the community is as horrible as early days of League of Legends but it is and example of skill over gear.


Tab targeting is dead its classic button mashing that even a bot can do, altho being limited to only 5 to 7 skills is also the easy setting... I would like to see a game with normal attacks/hard attack on the mouse BUT has 30 or more special skills that you can place on 3 to 4 hotbars with shortcut keys using 1-9, ctrl+1-9, alt+1-9 to use with shift as a dodge and tab as a class skill similar to Neverwinter BUT with more powers to use than 5.


Gear has always been the big decision in most all pvp and at the highest level most gears start to be seperated into Tiers which leaves a gap so big that its almost like extra levels. you get new level capped players with starting pvp gear up against players in top gear of the game that can just litterally stand there and take everything you have to dish out and laugh, then promptly turn and auto attack killing you in 1 hit. even an entire team in starting gear couldn't take out that 1 player.  Gear should be there yes but NOT to make you a god... it should be there to provide you more survivability and help you land hits NOT to do more damage than the other players total health and definatly not so that your unkillable.


A perfectly balanced pvp is one that removes all your extra god mode and makes it so that both teams have an equal chance of beating one another, either by making you mount a vehicle or beast that have the same attacks and health like the argent crusade in WoW had or by ranking you by number of kills, deaths, and wins then matching you only against other players of the same ranking (they can prevent a missmatched preformed by doing a team average so that a really high level player grouped with noobs can't go up against another bunch of noobs and own them all).   Gear score has been tried like this but players carry their good gear in a bag, flag for pvp with junk on, get into the match, and then put on their good gear to own everything, so it needs to be based on your past victories/loses and personal kills/deaths.


I can tell you from experience that pvp is no fun when its unbalanced.  When you get overrunned by a group of players that never sleep and live in pvp having all the best pvp gear and they camp your spawn point AND when you can mow over other players so easily that most quit out or give up before the match is over.


Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/05/13
Posts: 70

1/24/14 9:04:45 AM#60

MMO's have not been challenging for the last 10 or so years. Instead they have become increasingly infantile as more push for main-stream has occured and the rip-off known as WoW from the original MMO, EverQuest. Back in the day there was a danger in MMO's where the possibility of being snipped PKed by another player was possible or using the advantages of environment. These were one of the elements that made MMOs fun. 

Now there is too much playdough in the sandbox and not enough rough and tumble. Gaming has become a simplified mattering of wowing a player with graphics only and simple mind-numbing gameplay. There is simply not enough challenge or risk in a game anymore and there is a sense of pretty much handed down on a silver-plate. We have game engines that can open up and offer so much more in terms of reward, andreline and exploration to those who love gaming. Instead these tools are stiffled into theme-park games where even the talentless can win and too much emphasis of combining real-world into the game-world in such tastelessness. 

Gamer's there don't think anymore. There is no loss or danger in gaming and it is all too much carebearish. This artificial paint-coating in gaming is which is why some of the older game vets, including myself have moved into the sandbox/indie regions where we can have these things which have so lacked in the current main-stream games. This "everyone wins, everyone is equal" mentallity is absolutely stupid. No, not everyone wins and no, not everyone is talented. So why is a mmo game stupidified in this way? Even the old Mario especially Mario 3 provided more challenge than what is in a current MMO to date. Plenty of eye-coordination, reaction time, logic-thinking, and trial-of-error. Current MMO's have pretty much taken this away and nullified it with easy gogo stuff. It has become land of the brain-dead and gameplay easy enough to do with one's eye closed.

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