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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Some Insight on F2P

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49 posts found
  CazNeerg

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/04
Posts: 2220

"So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb." Dark Helmet

1/22/14 1:32:46 PM#21
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

It's also why governments enacted by the people exist to put limitations on the way companies can behave to generate proffit with such things as lemon laws and truth in advertisement and sale of addictive substances or gambling by minors.

Not saying that I think F2P games should be regulated (aside from the normal truth in advertising laws that apply to any business) but a business is not allowed to simply do EVERYTHING it wants to generate proffit.....and I'm pretty darn libertarion .... but there do need to be some safeguards in place that consumers can rely on. 

I agree that there need to be health and safety regulations in place.  Neither of those things applies to a game company.  It's not the government's responsibility to make sure individuals spend their money wisely, and it's not companies responsibility.  It is 100% on the individual.

Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

I'm not saying that, within some very basic limitations (e.g. false advertising, selling alcohol to minors, etc) companies should be allowed to offer products that can be used responsibly even if some portion of the population can't handle it. However, many of the posters on these boards have gone a step further to promote how awesome F2P games are for the consumer and how they are all sunshine and rainbows, etc. They aren't. I think it's important to point out that there is a dark, seedy side to them that is really a terrible deal for many consumers and gamers. I'm a consumer and a gamer....not a shill for the F2P industry so I'll point out thier flaws and the dirty little tricks they use to manipulate people...so everyone can be fully aware of what they are walking into with those games.

Just as I'm happy if you have an awesome time at a Casino and think they should be around for people who enjoy them. At the same time that I'll point out that most don't have windows or clocks on the gambling floor so that players can lose track of time and that they'll serve discounted or comp'd drinks to help impair gamblers judgement, etc.

Being a cheerleader for any business model is a little silly if you aren't being paid.  But I don't see that many F2P cheerleaders, I see more of people responding to irrational rants about how F2P is *Bwahahah EVIL!!!* or all F2P games suck by pointing out the twin truths that not all games which offer a free option are bad games, and companies go with the model because it works and they have a responsibility to make a profit.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

  anemo

Novice Member

Joined: 12/24/10
Posts: 699

1/22/14 1:54:43 PM#22
OP: O hi, I have no intention of providing content from myself.  But firmly believe we don't have enough F2P VS P2P threads so I'll copy and paste an almost interesting article from reddit.

Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.

"There are still vast swaths of our planet's surface in which it's surprisingly easy to lose things. Even a ship the size of a large building." Richard Fisher

  Boognishe

Novice Member

Joined: 9/18/04
Posts: 86

Stay Positive and Love Your Life.

 
OP  1/22/14 2:24:35 PM#23
Originally posted by anemo
OP: O hi, I have no intention of providing content from myself.

Oh the irony.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19463

1/22/14 2:58:22 PM#24
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2
However, many of the posters on these boards have gone a step further to promote how awesome F2P games are for the consumer and how they are all sunshine and rainbows, etc. They aren't. I think it's important to point out that there is a dark, seedy side to them that is really a terrible deal for many consumers and gamers.

 

 

Who is doing that? Isn't the issue of whales raised again and again. In fact, I seldom not talk about whales in the context of f2p games.

Sure there is a dark side. So far the dark side does not impact me .. just like if i go to a casino to eat their subsidized buffet, without losing a single dollar.

  laokoko

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/14/09
Posts: 1886

1/22/14 3:13:48 PM#25

Many people actually play F2P free.

I remember playing Atlantica online.  Half of the people never pay a dime, while the other half pay upto an extrodinary amount.

I personally paid like 100+$ every month.  One guy paid so much money it is enough to buy a Lexus car.

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19463

1/22/14 5:20:59 PM#26
Originally posted by laokoko

Many people actually play F2P free.

I remember playing Atlantica online.  Half of the people never pay a dime, while the other half pay upto an extrodinary amount.

I personally paid like 100+$ every month.  One guy paid so much money it is enough to buy a Lexus car.

 

Yes .. i am one of those free players, but i am totally aware of the whales.

 

  Vermillion_Raventhal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/01/04
Posts: 1006

1/22/14 7:00:40 PM#27
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Muntz

"You are no longer concerned with what your users actually want or what would be cool to add to the game, you are only concerned with how to get their money by pretending to give them what they want."

For me this is the crux of it. But not simply with F2P games, the P2P games also seem to want you to feel that you got value for the monthly feed by pretending to give you what you want. I think it is assumed it far easier to pretend to give you what you want then actually giving you what you want. I don't think that has to be the case but there is alot of factors involved. 

If you cannot make something they want to buy, how do you get their money?

 

Check the quote. They are giving them something they percieve they want (or feel they "need") to buy but not neccesarly something the users would actualy find fun/entertaining. The human psyche is an odd thing and it can be manipulated in very unwholesome ways.

Many Casino's or Off-Track Betting facilities heck even the lottery often operate under similar premises.

If you walk into many Casino's or just about any Off-Track Betting facility, you'll notice that a good percentage of the people there aren't having fun, in fact some are downright miserable. However, they keep playing because they are obsessed with the idea of "winning" or of making back what they already "invested", it's not that they are actualy getting what they want, it's the promise that if they just keep spending they MIGHT in FUTURE obtain what they want even though they hardly ever do.

Facilities (and sometimes software Developers) can play upon the psychology of vulnerable individuals to promote such behavior.

Now, I'm not saying that EVERY F2P Developer or every Casino's, etc goes off the deep end with such manipulation but some most certainly do.

 

Actually is a lot of principle in general capitalism.  Sell the dream of being rich while the majority will be poor and middle class cogs earning money for a few truly wealthy guys.  

  cheyane

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/17/09
Posts: 2341

1/22/14 7:22:39 PM#28

When you speak of people in casinos trying to win something or refusing to leave because they have already invested so much it reminds me of the chat during the winter fair in Neverwinter. The fishing part there were all these conversations of people spending hours hitting the "F" key to get the fish to turn in to get the rewards to grind for the companions and other higher rewards. No one was happy doing it and yet they convinced themselves they have to get the rewards. This is how smart these grinds are they manage to convince you that you need something from them enough for you to either spend money or time and effort . Honestly they must be experts at the human need and psyche to fulfill a hole that gets bigger the more you try to fill it.


How do they figure out the right grind that will still keep you and not drive you away. What is the hook that keeps a person hitting that "F" key ? I spent hours and hours looking for the parts to complete many of the lore weapon rewards in EQ 2 to put the weapons in my house. Mind you I got some recognition when people came and saw my house and commented on them but most of the time I never had that accolade in mind when I spent all those hours killing the same type of mobs just to get a body part. I would even joke to may family that when I went to sleep I was dreaming about the body part dropping. How brilliant are these people to figure this out and keep me playing ?

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  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5632

1/22/14 7:24:13 PM#29

Instead of focusing on arpu, which we don't know if they will since I think a cash shop will be incoming, they will focus on time sink installation. That is how every p2p game has worked since the beginning. Instead of focusing on good gameplay mechanics they focus on ways to keep players playing longer not better. It works both ways.

Regardless of the revenue model a developer can choose to focus on making their game fun so people stay and spend money, or they can focus on mechanics that cycle people onto a treadmill.

Regardless, having a game be sub-locked is pretty much a dealbreaker for me. I'll play sub-optional or sub-free games and that's sort of the end of the story for me. I've yet to see a game good enough to convince me otherwise. Lineage was the closest, but mostly because of the times.

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5632

1/22/14 7:27:09 PM#30
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Muntz

"You are no longer concerned with what your users actually want or what would be cool to add to the game, you are only concerned with how to get their money by pretending to give them what they want."

For me this is the crux of it. But not simply with F2P games, the P2P games also seem to want you to feel that you got value for the monthly feed by pretending to give you what you want. I think it is assumed it far easier to pretend to give you what you want then actually giving you what you want. I don't think that has to be the case but there is alot of factors involved. 

If you cannot make something they want to buy, how do you get their money?

Check the quote. They are giving them something they percieve they want (or feel they "need") to buy but not neccesarly something the users would actualy find fun/entertaining. The human psyche is an odd thing and it can be manipulated in very unwholesome ways.

Many Casino's or Off-Track Betting facilities heck even the lottery often operate under similar premises.

If you walk into many Casino's or just about any Off-Track Betting facility, you'll notice that a good percentage of the people there aren't having fun, in fact some are downright miserable. However, they keep playing because they are obsessed with the idea of "winning" or of making back what they already "invested", it's not that they are actualy getting what they want, it's the promise that if they just keep spending they MIGHT in FUTURE obtain what they want even though they hardly ever do.

Facilities (and sometimes software Developers) can play upon the psychology of vulnerable individuals to promote such behavior.

Now, I'm not saying that EVERY F2P Developer or every Casino's, etc goes off the deep end with such manipulation but some most certainly do.

Actually is a lot of principle in general capitalism.  Sell the dream of being rich while the majority will be poor and middle class cogs earning money for a few truly wealthy guys.  

And that's not any different in a p2p game where the recurring sub is just a treadmill where the player almost arrives, but never does. Yet, that's not a problem why?

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  SirPKsAlot

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/17/13
Posts: 224

1/22/14 7:52:18 PM#31
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by laokoko

Many people actually play F2P free.

I remember playing Atlantica online.  Half of the people never pay a dime, while the other half pay upto an extrodinary amount.

I personally paid like 100+$ every month.  One guy paid so much money it is enough to buy a Lexus car.

 

Yes .. i am one of those free players, but i am totally aware of the whales.

 

In the days of text-based MUDs, we called them "artefact whores".


Currently playing: Eldevin Online as a Deadly Assassin

  Aldous.Huxley

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/04/13
Posts: 443

1/22/14 8:00:12 PM#32

@ OP

Thanks for keeping it brown ;)

  iridescence

Elite Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1071

1/22/14 8:11:08 PM#33
Originally posted by Drakynn
 

There have been studies on this sort of thing  and gamespot did a couple of videos summing them up that I psoted before but were pretty much ignored but what the hell.

Part 1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=px74uw4ExN4

Part 2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QV0IALUrllY

Excellent videos to go along with excellent original post. Confirm many of the suspicions I've long had about F2P models. always be wary when a businessperson offers you something for free. They probably have a plan to get more out of you than the actual value of that thing.

 

 

  anemo

Novice Member

Joined: 12/24/10
Posts: 699

1/22/14 9:07:49 PM#34
Originally posted by Boognishe
Originally posted by anemo
OP: O hi, I have no intention of providing content from myself.

Oh the irony.

I'm at least taking a stance beyond "interesting".  Annoyance at the topic actually displays some emotion, if lacking some thought.

As for on topic.  Developers should go where the money is, simply the best way to get more MMOs more failure and success for future developers to learn from.

As for cash shops being brutal as the reddit-op/real-op is trying to point out.   It just means that there clearly aren't enough MMOs in general, even F2P games.  Because it essentially means that there is so little competiton that developers are more worried about their Average Return Per User or whatever other metric they're using.  

If there was enough competition you would have developers forced develop based on metrics of new users per month and user retention.

__________

At least for my average play style F2P actually tends to be a better deal than a $50-$70 dollar box and $30 on two months of subscription.  With really only Three outliers: WurmOnline which I played for 3 years(beta into subscription as super favorable for me), Mabinogi 1 year(F2P became dis-favorable over a longer play period), and EvE over 2 years.  

Other MMO's I played for 1 month maybe two which means that normal distribution of box+sub is disfavorable.

I would also say that if you join a F2P game at it's launch the cash shop matters less, because there is that base level of content that an MMO needs to compete.

Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.

"There are still vast swaths of our planet's surface in which it's surprisingly easy to lose things. Even a ship the size of a large building." Richard Fisher

  iridescence

Elite Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1071

1/22/14 9:39:20 PM#35
Originally posted by Torvaldr

Instead of focusing on arpu, which we don't know if they will since I think a cash shop will be incoming, they will focus on time sink installation. That is how every p2p game has worked since the beginning. Instead of focusing on good gameplay mechanics they focus on ways to keep players playing longer not better. It works both ways.

 

Thing is the dividing like between "fun game" and "timesink/grind" is different for everyone. Some people probably really enjoy things in games you find just a time sink (we can often see this in discussions on here about things like fast travel or leveling speed). 

 

On the other hand, I  doubt even the most ardent F2P proponent would claim that they have fun being nickled and dimed by a cash shop or not having extra content to play because a game decided it was better monetization to stock said cash shop with extra vanity items.

Sub games want to keep you playing so you pay your sub fee. F2P games just want to keep you paying for something as long or as much  as possible. I think one usually creates a much better game for the player  than the other.

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19463

1/22/14 10:43:13 PM#36
Originally posted by iridescence

Sub games want to keep you playing so you pay your sub fee. F2P games just want to keep you paying for something as long or as much  as possible. I think one usually creates a much better game for the player  than the other.

 

There is nothing "usually" about sub-only games anymore because there are so few of them.

The only one left is pretty much wow. If I want to play a super hero MMO, it is either Marvel Hero, or DCU .. and there is no "sub-only game usually create a much better game" ... because sub-only don't have anything.

And no, sub games don't just want to keep you playing. They want you to keep playing paying a sub AND pay for stuff in the cash shop. You haven't seen the sparky pony in wow?

  iridescence

Elite Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1071

1/22/14 11:12:45 PM#37
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by iridescence

Sub games want to keep you playing so you pay your sub fee. F2P games just want to keep you paying for something as long or as much  as possible. I think one usually creates a much better game for the player  than the other.

 

There is nothing "usually" about sub-only games anymore because there are so few of them.

 

I was saying a sub game usually creates a better player experience and freemium with sub option is usually a better experience than pure free to play. 

(also there are way more sub games than just WoW but it's not really relevant)

 

 

  CazNeerg

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/04
Posts: 2220

"So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb." Dark Helmet

1/22/14 11:34:31 PM#38
Originally posted by iridescence

I was saying a sub game usually creates a better player experience and freemium with sub option is usually a better experience than pure free to play. 

(also there are way more sub games than just WoW but it's not really relevant) 

I can't think of a single MMO that is a year or more old, doesn't include a cash shop, and does have a population that can be called anything other than tiny.  And let's face it, the cash shop is a more relevant part of the freemium model than the free.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

  iridescence

Elite Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1071

1/22/14 11:42:34 PM#39
Originally posted by CazNeerg
  And let's face it, the cash shop is a more relevant part of the freemium model than the free.

I disagree with that but it's a matter of opinion I suppose. If the cash shop is for cosmetic items it doesn't bother me much. "Free" games can't usually get away with only offering cosmetic items in cash shop.

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5632

1/23/14 1:07:06 AM#40
Originally posted by iridescence
Originally posted by CazNeerg
  And let's face it, the cash shop is a more relevant part of the freemium model than the free.

I disagree with that but it's a matter of opinion I suppose. If the cash shop is for cosmetic items it doesn't bother me much. "Free" games can't usually get away with only offering cosmetic items in cash shop.

Ah, so if you approve of the cash shop and its items then it's okay. That makes sense.

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

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