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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Why are MMORPGs a Special Snowflake?

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71 posts found
  waynejr2

Elite Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3798

RIP City of Heroes!

1/22/14 4:32:26 PM#41
Originally posted by lizardbones

In many discussions, notably discussions on F2P and Subscriptions, a common response is that people should not compare MMORPGs to games from other genres.  You can't compare WoW to LoL because WoW is an MMORPG and LoL is an MMO.  Is there a justification for this or is it just a tactic to prevent unwanted information from entering a discussion?

 

In the interests of moving things forward, I will take the opinion that not only can games from other genres be compared to MMORPGs, they should.

 

MMORPGs share players with games from other genres.  People who play MMORPGs also play a variety of single player games, multi-player games and MMOs like LoL.

 

MMORPGs share development companies with games from other genres.  It is far more noticeable when a developer only produces an MMORPG, but developers who are successful will tend to develop games in addition to their MMORPG and it seems likely that some of the development is going to be shared across those styles of games.*

 

MMORPGs share monetization systems with games from other genres, most notably in F2P offerings.  MMORPGs do seem to have a lock on subscriptions, but they have incorporated the "cash shop" mechanic for a very long time now.  Even venerated games like Ultima Online have a cash shop.

 

Added: MMORPGs do not operate in a vacuum.  They certainly compete with each other, but they are also competing with games from other genres. Beatnik59

 

So what say you, oh masses of wisdom?  Why should MMORPGs be discussed as if they operate in a vacuum where no other types of games exist?

**

 

* I'm not happy with how I've phrased this.  Hopefully you get the point.

Wow, this is just so odd.

  Miblet

Novice Member

Joined: 8/19/10
Posts: 333

1/22/14 4:34:38 PM#42

In that case can we all agree B2P is the most successful model for games (not just MMO, lets include all video games...lets include board games too after all they are entertainment too?) and F2P and P2P are both dying models ;p

 

That is what this thread is about isn't it?  The argument that data you want should be included as it aids your stance regarding F2P trends in various threads yet other people should stop doing the same from their standpoint?

 

I can't understand why people are so determined to argue for the removal of certain payment methods when surely the more and varied the payment models the better off gamers are to be as more tastes will be met.  Especially when data is usually so laughably distorted or twisted to fit the side of whoever uses it.

  iridescence

Elite Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1460

1/22/14 4:36:29 PM#43
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by lizardbones
 

They only have a point if all players only play MMORPGs (by some strict definition) and nothing else. That is not true for me, and not for anyone I know who is playing games.

 

I don't think that is true for most people on here. Most of us just don't feel the need to stretch the definition of MMORPGs to fit every game we happen to like.

 

I play and like many games which aren't MMORPGs or even RPGs. I just don't usually discuss them on here unless it comes up because it doesn't seem like the right forum.

 

  iridescence

Elite Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1460

1/22/14 4:42:05 PM#44
Originally posted by Rockniss
It's supposed to be the social aspect and ability to play with others, but people are like "we don't care about endgame"" we like leveling" which is pretty much a single player experience. So you can spend a couple months leveling solo and then wind up looking for a group at level cap. That's why leveling needs to dissappear or the genre will.

Actually I would say the exact reverse of this. Make leveling challenging and at least partly group oriented and make it central to the game experience again not something that can be completed in a week or two. I don't care about endgame because it's grindy and repetitive and doesn't really progress your character at all . It doesn't mean I want solo-only easy mode content.

 

  Vermillion_Raventhal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/01/04
Posts: 1039

1/22/14 5:01:51 PM#45
Originally posted by DamonVile

Spending money on a game is spending money on a game. I don't buy that mmos are unique in why people spend money on them, I think some people justify it differently. It doesn't actually change the fact that you're spending that money for the same reason someone playing a fps does.

Fine.  Anytime someone brings up F2P lets talk about Candy Crush.  The reasons why people Play to Win are closer to MMORPG P2W.  But we'll ignore everything from platform, targeted demographic and even gameplay.  I mean we all know how much MMORPG players love to be unfairly challenged with Levels that randomly increase the odds so you fail over and over again to push purchase of P2W items.  

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10942

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

 
OP  1/22/14 5:20:24 PM#46
Originally posted by waynejr2
Originally posted by lizardbones

Wow, this is just so odd.

 

I wish this was the first time I'd heard this.

 

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  User Deleted
1/22/14 5:22:57 PM#47
Where do you draw the line?

Personally, I don't believe GW2 with its jumping puzzles and mini-games should be classified in the same genre as iconic MMOs like EQ and UO.
  nariusseldon

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20226

1/22/14 7:30:42 PM#48
Originally posted by iridescence
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by lizardbones
 

They only have a point if all players only play MMORPGs (by some strict definition) and nothing else. That is not true for me, and not for anyone I know who is playing games.

 

I don't think that is true for most people on here. Most of us just don't feel the need to stretch the definition of MMORPGs to fit every game we happen to like.

 

I play and like many games which aren't MMORPGs or even RPGs. I just don't usually discuss them on here unless it comes up because it doesn't seem like the right forum.

 

Obviously what "seem like the right forum" is subjective, and given how often LoL and D3, and other games are discussed, i would say that there are those whose opinions are different from you.

May be you don't think it is close enough, but for me, D3 certainly is close enough to many MMOs where the main gameplay is in instances.

And we don't have to define anything to discuss, for example, how the difficulty slider in D3, or its perma-death, can apply to MMORPGs.

 

  nariusseldon

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20226

1/22/14 7:31:42 PM#49
Originally posted by Sajman01
Where do you draw the line?

Personally, I don't believe GW2 with its jumping puzzles and mini-games should be classified in the same genre as iconic MMOs like EQ and UO.

Easy .. by common usage.

I am sure it is an injustice for GW2 to classify as much worse games like EQ and UO, but hey, i don't dictate common usage, and I can live with calling GW2 a MMORPG.

 

  Jorendo

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/02/08
Posts: 237

1/23/14 3:17:51 AM#50

[quote]Originally posted by Sajman01

"Where do you draw the line?

Personally, I don't believe GW2 with its jumping puzzles and mini-games should be classified in the same genre as iconic MMOs like EQ and UO."[/quote]

 

How is GW2 not a MMORPG like EQ and UO? The only difference between UO and GW2 is that UO is a sandbox and GW2 not. But both are MMORPG. You have a character you build out in a online world. puzzles and mini games are a extra, it doesn't change the genre it is.

  jesad

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/30/06
Posts: 733

Think of something witty and pretend that I typed it in this spot :)

1/23/14 3:51:34 AM#51
Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by jesad

I claim the Chewbacca Defense!!

No seriously....

I think for the same reason that LOL tried to keep their professional streamers from streaming MMORPG's.

Forbes Article

It's bad for business.

You, yourself, OP, make the perfect points.  Yes, these genres share a lot of resources.  It would be foolish then for a  site dedicated to one type of game want to direct people to a different kind of game.

For the record, I talk about it all here, but I do so in the proper places.  I do believe that MOBA's, (which are what they are, no idea why you would refer to them as "MMO's" when "MMO" is meaningless other than an abbreviated term for MMORPG), should be discussed here, but not because of the way that they compare or compete but more because of the ways that they could expand.

I've said it before in other strings, I would certainly play an MMORPG that used a MOBA interface were it done properly.  I am also willing to talk about that kind of stuff ad nauseum (when was the last time you heard that one huh?  :) ) as it pertains to improving THIS genre.  What I am not willing to talk about however is why an MMORPG should be adopting the pay systems and other things of games that offer a completely different kinds of play experiences and/or expectations.

Why would I do that?  It makes no sense.  Therefore if Chewbacca lives on Endor then you must acquit!

 

Riot Games is telling people that they are paying a salary that they cannot advertise competitor products.  This wouldn't be terribly different from someone working for Samsung not being allowed to stream advertising for Apple products.  I'm not sure what that has to do with what I'm wondering about.

 

I'm not talking about MMORG.com's business practices.  They have included many games in their game list that are not MMORPGs because they are of interest to MMORPG players.  It's their site and their business.  They can do whatever they want.

 

I'm talking about forum posters who refuse to compare games from different categories, even if what's being compared is one aspect of a game rather than the whole game itself.  They will use the "It's not an MMORPG" as a reason that the person they are replying to is wrong, or the reason that they are right.  My chosen stance is that this is an invalid defense or argument.

 

You said....."In many discussions, notably discussions on F2P and Subscriptions, a common response is that people should not compare MMORPGs to games from other genres.  You can't compare WoW to LoL because WoW is an MMORPG and LoL is an MMO.  Is there a justification for this or is it just a tactic to prevent unwanted information from entering a discussion?"

The Chewbacca Defense says that it doesn't make any sense for us to be talking about F2P and Subscriptions practices of games that are not MMORPG's in comparison to games that are MMORPG's because those games are not MMORPG's and thus are not even charging for the same goods and services.

Example.  Most Moba's charge for "skins" which are overall cosmetic changes to a players game card and avatar.  An MMORPG charges for cosmetic "peices", the total sum of which constitutes the same overall cosmetic change for the avatar but that provide no game card because game cards are generally not used in MMORPG's.

An MMORPG can combine several pieces and sell them at a discount in order to allow a player to change their overall look but were a MOBA to break down their skins into individual pieces it would nullify the game card that comes along with the purchase.

AND THAT WOULDN'T MAKE ANY SENSE! 

Thus! If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you MUST ACQUIT!!

(although I have to admit this is a fun conversation haha!)

  jesteralways

Elite Member

Joined: 3/17/13
Posts: 682

1/23/14 4:33:10 AM#52
Originally posted by lizardbones

In many discussions, notably discussions on F2P and Subscriptions, a common response is that people should not compare MMORPGs to games from other genres.  You can't compare WoW to LoL because WoW is an MMORPG and LoL is an MMO.  Is there a justification for this or is it just a tactic to prevent unwanted information from entering a discussion?

 

In the interests of moving things forward, I will take the opinion that not only can games from other genres be compared to MMORPGs, they should.

 

MMORPGs share players with games from other genres.  People who play MMORPGs also play a variety of single player games, multi-player games and MMOs like LoL.

 

MMORPGs share development companies with games from other genres.  It is far more noticeable when a developer only produces an MMORPG, but developers who are successful will tend to develop games in addition to their MMORPG and it seems likely that some of the development is going to be shared across those styles of games.*

 

MMORPGs share monetization systems with games from other genres, most notably in F2P offerings.  MMORPGs do seem to have a lock on subscriptions, but they have incorporated the "cash shop" mechanic for a very long time now.  Even venerated games like Ultima Online have a cash shop.

 

Added: MMORPGs do not operate in a vacuum.  They certainly compete with each other, but they are also competing with games from other genres. Beatnik59

 

So what say you, oh masses of wisdom?  Why should MMORPGs be discussed as if they operate in a vacuum where no other types of games exist?

**

 

* I'm not happy with how I've phrased this.  Hopefully you get the point.

1st of all LoL is not MMO, it is MoBA, an entirely different genre.

2nd, it is about common sense.

you don't get the 2nd point?  let me elaborate, mmorpg comes with lots of class; in standard mmorpg each class have over 20 skills, then there is advanced class or hybrid class or so on and forth, then there is gear variation, each class has their own mechanics that hovers around their skills. then there are mob, mob AI, mob mechanics, mob skill. and then all kind of  features an standard mmorpg comes out with. now what does MoBA have? champions/heroes with 4 skill and 1 passive skills, less than nothing pve so no worries about npc AI or interesting npc mechanics, pvp matchmaking, a social feature to add players in friend list/ignore list, a simple guild system and a few pvp game mode along with AI practice mode(DoTA 2 does it better though). they release 1 new hero/champion each 2-3 week, maybe a variation of older game mode each few month, new items that may simply won't have any effect in current meta or maybe OP for current meta(personally i think they do this because they want to show they are dong "balancing" and justify the money they charge). So after playing both genre extensively my common sense dictates that cost of mmorpg is much more than moba and not only that to satisfy mmorpg players is much harder than satisfying god himself/itself, where moba players are satisfied as long as they can "kill" other players(most OP hero/champion remains OP one way or other, balancing is most of the time a complete joke and players are happy if a hero can do the number of dmg they expect it to or take as much dmg as they expect it to). mmorpg and moba or any other genre should never be compared to each other and most definitely their monetizing should not be compared just because of the simple fact that cost of mmorpg is much more than any other multiplayer game and single player games don't even come to discussion. it is simply about common sense.

i want an open world, no phasing, no instancing.i want meaningful owpvp.i want player driven economy.i want meaningful crafting.i want awesome exploration, a sense of thrill.i want ow housing with a meaningful effect on my entire gameplay experience, not just some instanced crap.i want all of these free of cost, i don't wanna pay you a cent, game devs can eat grass and continue developing game for me.
Seems like that is the current consensus of western mmo players.

  Xthos

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/18/10
Posts: 2651

1/23/14 4:34:21 AM#53

I do not have the numbers, but I doubt that LoL spends as much time/money on developing in game content as most traditional mmos.  LoL has redone their graphics and has a few boards/instances to play on.  Their big 'content' is new champions to entice people to spend money.  So LoL functions well as a cash shop/f2p game imo.

 

Traditional MMOs do not usually have a new class every month, they make content, and people seem to get all upset if f2p companies try to make you earn the content (like you can earn IP in LoL to buy new champions) or make you pay for it.

 

The infratructure of content is so different in a traditional mmo and LoL that it isn't apples and apples imo.  Sure LoL has more than champions in it's cash shop, but I do not know one single person that has bought IP enhancement potions with cash, or runes and such.  They buy champions.  I have played a ton of matches and know a ton of people that play it, so that is my first hand experience.

 

I don't care if you call LoL a mmo, because as far as I am concerned, if it is online, and 2-3 people can somehow connect, it is a mmo now.  MMO is meaningless, and I am getting ahead of the generalization curve on it.

 

 

  jesad

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/30/06
Posts: 733

Think of something witty and pretend that I typed it in this spot :)

1/23/14 4:38:07 AM#54
Originally posted by jesteralways
Originally posted by lizardbones

In many discussions, notably discussions on F2P and Subscriptions, a common response is that people should not compare MMORPGs to games from other genres.  You can't compare WoW to LoL because WoW is an MMORPG and LoL is an MMO.  Is there a justification for this or is it just a tactic to prevent unwanted information from entering a discussion?

 

In the interests of moving things forward, I will take the opinion that not only can games from other genres be compared to MMORPGs, they should.

 

MMORPGs share players with games from other genres.  People who play MMORPGs also play a variety of single player games, multi-player games and MMOs like LoL.

 

MMORPGs share development companies with games from other genres.  It is far more noticeable when a developer only produces an MMORPG, but developers who are successful will tend to develop games in addition to their MMORPG and it seems likely that some of the development is going to be shared across those styles of games.*

 

MMORPGs share monetization systems with games from other genres, most notably in F2P offerings.  MMORPGs do seem to have a lock on subscriptions, but they have incorporated the "cash shop" mechanic for a very long time now.  Even venerated games like Ultima Online have a cash shop.

 

Added: MMORPGs do not operate in a vacuum.  They certainly compete with each other, but they are also competing with games from other genres. Beatnik59

 

So what say you, oh masses of wisdom?  Why should MMORPGs be discussed as if they operate in a vacuum where no other types of games exist?

**

 

* I'm not happy with how I've phrased this.  Hopefully you get the point.

1st of all LoL is not MMO, it is MoBA, an entirely different genre.

2nd, it is about common sense.

you don't get the 2nd point?  let me elaborate, mmorpg comes with lots of class; in standard mmorpg each class have over 20 skills, then there is advanced class or hybrid class or so on and forth, then there is gear variation, each class has their own mechanics that hovers around their skills. then there are mob, mob AI, mob mechanics, mob skill. and then all kind of  features an standard mmorpg comes out with. now what does MoBA have? champions/heroes with 4 skill and 1 passive skills, less than nothing pve so no worries about npc AI or interesting npc mechanics, pvp matchmaking, a social feature to add players in friend list/ignore list, a simple guild system and a few pvp game mode along with AI practice mode(DoTA 2 does it better though). they release 1 new hero/champion each 2-3 week, maybe a variation of older game mode each few month, new items that may simply won't have any effect in current meta or maybe OP for current meta(personally i think they do this because they want to show they are dong "balancing" and justify the money they charge). So after playing both genre extensively my common sense dictates that cost of mmorpg is much more than moba and not only that to satisfy mmorpg players is much harder than satisfying god himself/itself, where moba players are satisfied as long as they can "kill" other players(most OP hero/champion remains OP one way or other, balancing is most of the time a complete joke and players are happy if a hero can do the number of dmg they expect it to or take as much dmg as they expect it to). mmorpg and moba or any other genre should never be compared to each other and most definitely their monetizing should not be compared just because of the simple fact that cost of mmorpg is much more than any other multiplayer game and single player games don't even come to discussion. it is simply about common sense.

What he said plus Chewbacca is a Wookie!

  immodium

Elite Member

Joined: 11/03/07
Posts: 1355

1/23/14 4:55:25 AM#55
Originally posted by jesteralways
Originally posted by lizardbones

In many discussions, notably discussions on F2P and Subscriptions, a common response is that people should not compare MMORPGs to games from other genres.  You can't compare WoW to LoL because WoW is an MMORPG and LoL is an MMO.  Is there a justification for this or is it just a tactic to prevent unwanted information from entering a discussion?

 

In the interests of moving things forward, I will take the opinion that not only can games from other genres be compared to MMORPGs, they should.

 

MMORPGs share players with games from other genres.  People who play MMORPGs also play a variety of single player games, multi-player games and MMOs like LoL.

 

MMORPGs share development companies with games from other genres.  It is far more noticeable when a developer only produces an MMORPG, but developers who are successful will tend to develop games in addition to their MMORPG and it seems likely that some of the development is going to be shared across those styles of games.*

 

MMORPGs share monetization systems with games from other genres, most notably in F2P offerings.  MMORPGs do seem to have a lock on subscriptions, but they have incorporated the "cash shop" mechanic for a very long time now.  Even venerated games like Ultima Online have a cash shop.

 

Added: MMORPGs do not operate in a vacuum.  They certainly compete with each other, but they are also competing with games from other genres. Beatnik59

 

So what say you, oh masses of wisdom?  Why should MMORPGs be discussed as if they operate in a vacuum where no other types of games exist?

**

 

* I'm not happy with how I've phrased this.  Hopefully you get the point.

1st of all LoL is not MMO, it is MoBA, an entirely different genre.

2nd, it is about common sense.

you don't get the 2nd point?  let me elaborate, mmorpg comes with lots of class; in standard mmorpg each class have over 20 skills, then there is advanced class or hybrid class or so on and forth, then there is gear variation, each class has their own mechanics that hovers around their skills. then there are mob, mob AI, mob mechanics, mob skill. and then all kind of  features an standard mmorpg comes out with. now what does MoBA have? champions/heroes with 4 skill and 1 passive skills, less than nothing pve so no worries about npc AI or interesting npc mechanics, pvp matchmaking, a social feature to add players in friend list/ignore list, a simple guild system and a few pvp game mode along with AI practice mode(DoTA 2 does it better though). they release 1 new hero/champion each 2-3 week, maybe a variation of older game mode each few month, new items that may simply won't have any effect in current meta or maybe OP for current meta(personally i think they do this because they want to show they are dong "balancing" and justify the money they charge). So after playing both genre extensively my common sense dictates that cost of mmorpg is much more than moba and not only that to satisfy mmorpg players is much harder than satisfying god himself/itself, where moba players are satisfied as long as they can "kill" other players(most OP hero/champion remains OP one way or other, balancing is most of the time a complete joke and players are happy if a hero can do the number of dmg they expect it to or take as much dmg as they expect it to). mmorpg and moba or any other genre should never be compared to each other and most definitely their monetizing should not be compared just because of the simple fact that cost of mmorpg is much more than any other multiplayer game and single player games don't even come to discussion. it is simply about common sense.

You do know an MMO and an MMORPG are two entirely different things. An MMO does NOT have to include classes. It's debatable whether an MMORPG needs classes, a few single player RPGs don't have them.

MMO is just a prefix, not a genre IMO. MMORPG, MMOFPS, MMORTS etc.

 

Offtopic: What gets my hackles up is players wanting to be special snowflakes in MMOs.

  jesad

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/30/06
Posts: 733

Think of something witty and pretend that I typed it in this spot :)

1/23/14 5:05:25 AM#56
Originally posted by immodium
Originally posted by jesteralways
Originally posted by lizardbones

You do know an MMO and an MMORPG are two entirely different things. An MMO does NOT have to include classes. It's debatable whether an MMORPG needs classes, a few single player RPGs don't have them.

MMO is just a prefix, not a genre IMO. MMORPG, MMOFPS, MMORTS etc.

 

Offtopic: What gets my hackles up is players wanting to be special snowflakes in MMOs.

Dude I love your tag.

  Loktofeit

Novice Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12401

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

1/23/14 5:06:20 AM#57
It all depends on what aspect is being discussed. Gameplay, graphics, and plenty of other aspects can't always be eveny compared, because of the wrenches massively multiplayer, networking and other components throw in the works, primarily when compared to lobby-based games and singleplayer games. 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5673

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

1/23/14 7:30:29 AM#58
Originally posted by immodium
Originally posted by jesteralways
 

You do know an MMO and an MMORPG are two entirely different things. An MMO does NOT have to include classes. It's debatable whether an MMORPG needs classes, a few single player RPGs don't have them.

MMO is just a prefix, not a genre IMO. MMORPG, MMOFPS, MMORTS etc.

 

Offtopic: What gets my hackles up is players wanting to be special snowflakes in MMOs.

I agree. It is just a prefix. None of the terms address whether they have classes or not. They can all have classes in one form or another or not.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  SirPKsAlot

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/17/13
Posts: 224

1/23/14 7:43:44 AM#59
Originally posted by Xthos

I do not have the numbers, but I doubt that LoL spends as much time/money on developing in game content as most traditional mmos.  LoL has redone their graphics and has a few boards/instances to play on.  Their big 'content' is new champions to entice people to spend money.  So LoL functions well as a cash shop/f2p game imo.

I've unlocked most of my champions with IP, it's skins that I've spent cash on.


Currently playing: Eldevin Online as a Deadly Assassin

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10942

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

 
OP  1/23/14 9:07:11 AM#60
Originally posted by Loktofeit
It all depends on what aspect is being discussed. Gameplay, graphics, and plenty of other aspects can't always be eveny compared, because of the wrenches massively multiplayer, networking and other components throw in the works, primarily when compared to lobby-based games and singleplayer games. 

 

I can certainly see that.  You could certainly compare the number of players visible in D3 to the number of players visible in WoW, but one isn't better or worse than the other, just different.  If you have a game where thousands of character avatars might be visible on screen, there's going to be a trade off in the character customization.  The more skittled out* the characters are, the fewer of them you're going to see on screen at the same time. 

 

* I'm pretty sure this is something you said in another thread.  I'm going to use it and hopefully more people will use it and it'll eventually become a commonly used term.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

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