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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Why are MMORPGs a Special Snowflake?

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71 posts found
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19731

1/22/14 12:17:27 AM#21
Originally posted by iridescence
 

If you don't like MMORPGs I guess you wouldn't care. People who do like them or at least the idea of them would be sad to see them die out. Is that really very hard for you to understand?

 

So what if some people are sad about changes. I am sure there are those who are sad about text adventures dying out too. It is just entertainment.

 

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3178

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

1/22/14 12:17:47 AM#22


Originally posted by lizardbones
In many discussions, notably discussions on F2P and Subscriptions, a common response is that people should not compare MMORPGs to games from other genres.  You can't compare WoW to LoL because WoW is an MMORPG and LoL is an MMO.  Is there a justification for this or is it just a tactic to prevent unwanted information from entering a discussion?

 

In the interests of moving things forward, I will take the opinion that not only can games from other genres be compared to MMORPGs, they should.

 

MMORPGs share players with games from other genres.  People who play MMORPGs also play a variety of single player games, multi-player games and MMOs like LoL.

 

MMORPGs share development companies with games from other genres.  It is far more noticeable when a developer only produces an MMORPG, but developers who are successful will tend to develop games in addition to their MMORPG and it seems likely that some of the development is going to be shared across those styles of games.*

 

MMORPGs share monetization systems with games from other genres, most notably in F2P offerings.  MMORPGs do seem to have a lock on subscriptions, but they have incorporated the "cash shop" mechanic for a very long time now.  Even venerated games like Ultima Online have a cash shop.

 

Added: MMORPGs do not operate in a vacuum.  They certainly compete with each other, but they are also competing with games from other genres. Beatnik59

 

So what say you, oh masses of wisdom?  Why should MMORPGs be discussed as if they operate in a vacuum where no other types of games exist?

**

 

* I'm not happy with how I've phrased this.  Hopefully you get the point.



When presenting "data", where does anyone draw the line? Is Call of Duty fitting? It is played over the net with large numbers of players, just like LoL. My point of contention with including LoL is that in no way, shape, or form is it a MMO. You may have millions of players on line simultaneously, but it is a lobby. The actual game takes place in an instance where a handful or two (NOT massive in any definition) players fight. If you think LoL counts, then you best include the BrettspielWelt site that hosts board games. It may not have millions of players, but it is the exact same concept as LoL: Players gather in a lobby to join in a match.

So, if a player plays an MMO (I refuse to say MMORPG), do ALL their other games count? I play a lot board game simulators. Count them in, too!

So, if a company makes one MMO, do their "other" games need to be counted?

So, should Facebook games count? They share a similar monetization scheme. Should F2P even be compared to P2P or Freemium? They are DIFFERENT monetization models.

The worst thing here is that I LIKE the MMORPG genre. I HATE LoL and CoD and other first person shooters. I DESPISE Farmville. Why would *I* "care" about their monetization and success? In other words, why compare something that I (or others) have no interest in?

The reverse of your hypothesis is also true. Why do you want to include LoL? It makes for a better argument, perhaps?

In debates, you have to keep your arguments relative to the topic.

Now, comparing video games in GENERAL, I see no trouble. Include whatever your heart desires. When comparing TO MMOs, keep it relevant. I think you may agree that MMOs are quite different from any other kind of video game. Am I mistaken here?

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19731

1/22/14 12:21:30 AM#23
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 


Originally posted by lizardbones
In many discussions, notably discussions on F2P and Subscriptions, a common response is that people should not compare MMORPGs to games from other genres.  You can't compare WoW to LoL because WoW is an MMORPG and LoL is an MMO.  Is there a justification for this or is it just a tactic to prevent unwanted information from entering a discussion?

 

 

In the interests of moving things forward, I will take the opinion that not only can games from other genres be compared to MMORPGs, they should.

 

MMORPGs share players with games from other genres.  People who play MMORPGs also play a variety of single player games, multi-player games and MMOs like LoL.

 

MMORPGs share development companies with games from other genres.  It is far more noticeable when a developer only produces an MMORPG, but developers who are successful will tend to develop games in addition to their MMORPG and it seems likely that some of the development is going to be shared across those styles of games.*

 

MMORPGs share monetization systems with games from other genres, most notably in F2P offerings.  MMORPGs do seem to have a lock on subscriptions, but they have incorporated the "cash shop" mechanic for a very long time now.  Even venerated games like Ultima Online have a cash shop.

 

Added: MMORPGs do not operate in a vacuum.  They certainly compete with each other, but they are also competing with games from other genres. Beatnik59

 

So what say you, oh masses of wisdom?  Why should MMORPGs be discussed as if they operate in a vacuum where no other types of games exist?

**

 

* I'm not happy with how I've phrased this.  Hopefully you get the point.



When presenting "data", where does anyone draw the line? Is Call of Duty fitting? It is played over the net with large numbers of players, just like LoL. My point of contention with including LoL is that in no way, shape, or form is it a MMO. You may have millions of players on line simultaneously, but it is a lobby. The actual game takes place in an instance where a handful or two (NOT massive in any definition) players fight. If you think LoL counts, then you best include the BrettspielWelt site that hosts board games. It may not have millions of players, but it is the exact same concept as LoL: Players gather in a lobby to join in a match.

 

So, if a player plays an MMO (I refuse to say MMORPG), do ALL their other games count? I play a lot board game simulators. Count them in, too!

So, if a company makes one MMO, do their "other" games need to be counted?

So, should Facebook games count? They share a similar monetization scheme. Should F2P even be compared to P2P or Freemium? They are DIFFERENT monetization models.

The worst thing here is that I LIKE the MMORPG genre. I HATE LoL and CoD and other first person shooters. I DESPISE Farmville. Why would *I* "care" about their monetization and success? In other words, why compare something that I (or others) have no interest in?

The reverse of your hypothesis is also true. Why do you want to include LoL? It makes for a better argument, perhaps?

In debates, you have to keep your arguments relative to the topic.

Now, comparing video games in GENERAL, I see no trouble. Include whatever your heart desires. When comparing TO MMOs, keep it relevant. I think you may agree that MMOs are quite different from any other kind of video game. Am I mistaken here?

This is the fallacy of trying to use reasoning, logic or interpreting words literally just to form convenient groupings. You can always find extreme case.

The most reasonable thing is to use the common usage.

LoL counts .. why .. because the industry group it so.

Do Facebook games count? No . because by convention, they are grouped as "social games".

 

  iridescence

Elite Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1227

1/22/14 12:46:25 AM#24
Originally posted by nariusseldon

 

So what if some people are sad about changes. I am sure there are those who are sad about text adventures dying out too. It is just entertainment.

 

If *you* don't care why even post in this thread?  To extend your analogy it's like me finding a text adventure forum and posting over and over that I don't really care about the games they like. It's sort of true but do they need or want to hear that? Some of your posts make me wonder if you are just trolling.

 

 

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3178

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

1/22/14 12:50:36 AM#25


Originally posted by nariusseldon
This is the fallacy of trying to use reasoning, logic or interpreting words literally just to form convenient groupings. You can always find extreme case.

The most reasonable thing is to use the common usage.

LoL counts .. why .. because the industry group it so.

Do Facebook games count? No . because by convention, they are grouped as "social games".



but... but... but... I though you cared nothing about "genres", aka "groupings."

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  ThomasN7

Novice Member

Joined: 3/17/07
Posts: 6654

"Had to be me. Someone else might have gotten it wrong.” - Mordin Solus

1/22/14 1:01:15 AM#26
True you can't compare mmos to other types of games but what they all have in common is that they compete for your free time. 
  IGaveUp

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/09/08
Posts: 272

I can't pull it off. I gave up.

1/22/14 2:05:29 AM#27
If it's okay with MMORPG.com, it is on-topic.  Their site, their rules.

 

I'm just an end-user.  My involvement is to participate in the community and keep page views rolling so they can generate revenue.  I don't set the rules.  I don't enforce the rules.  Why ask me if LoL revenues are on-topic?  Ask management.

 

I could tell you what I think.  But in the end, what I think doesn't mean crap.

 

It's a nice party and all, but I'm really only here for the free beer.  *grin*

 

  jesad

Novice Member

Joined: 9/30/06
Posts: 730

Think of something witty and pretend that I typed it in this spot :)

1/22/14 2:39:27 AM#28

I claim the Chewbacca Defense!!

No seriously....

I think for the same reason that LOL tried to keep their professional streamers from streaming MMORPG's.

Forbes Article

It's bad for business.

You, yourself, OP, make the perfect points.  Yes, these genres share a lot of resources.  It would be foolish then for a  site dedicated to one type of game want to direct people to a different kind of game.

For the record, I talk about it all here, but I do so in the proper places.  I do believe that MOBA's, (which are what they are, no idea why you would refer to them as "MMO's" when "MMO" is meaningless other than an abbreviated term for MMORPG), should be discussed here, but not because of the way that they compare or compete but more because of the ways that they could expand.

I've said it before in other strings, I would certainly play an MMORPG that used a MOBA interface were it done properly.  I am also willing to talk about that kind of stuff ad nauseum (when was the last time you heard that one huh?  :) ) as it pertains to improving THIS genre.  What I am not willing to talk about however is why an MMORPG should be adopting the pay systems and other things of games that offer a completely different kinds of play experiences and/or expectations.

Why would I do that?  It makes no sense.  Therefore if Chewbacca lives on Endor then you must acquit!

  Phry

Elite Member

Joined: 7/01/04
Posts: 5248

1/22/14 3:00:24 AM#29
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 


Originally posted by nariusseldon
This is the fallacy of trying to use reasoning, logic or interpreting words literally just to form convenient groupings. You can always find extreme case.

 

The most reasonable thing is to use the common usage.

LoL counts .. why .. because the industry group it so.

Do Facebook games count? No . because by convention, they are grouped as "social games".



but... but... but... I though you cared nothing about "genres", aka "groupings."

 

LoL is an MOG, multiplayer online game, same as Counterstrike and a whole raft of others, and if its a case of sheer numbers playing, i think at its peak Counterstrike had even more than LoL does currently, but nobody ever tried to confuse the game with an MMO, these games are what they are, their fun to play, and many do. But if your going to class a game as an MMO because a lot of people have fun playing it, then we'd best reserve a place here for Farmville, which has a hell of a lot more people playing it than LoL does, scary as that is, and its also an online game where players can interract, including cash shop. If you base it on that it probably has more claim to being an MMO than LoL does

  SirPKsAlot

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/17/13
Posts: 224

1/22/14 3:11:55 AM#30
Originally posted by jesad

I've said it before in other strings, I would certainly play an MMORPG that used a MOBA interface were it done properly. 

God, me too. When can we have one please.


Currently playing: Eldevin Online as a Deadly Assassin

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19731

1/22/14 11:21:00 AM#31
Originally posted by iridescence
Originally posted by nariusseldon

 

So what if some people are sad about changes. I am sure there are those who are sad about text adventures dying out too. It is just entertainment.

 

If *you* don't care why even post in this thread?  To extend your analogy it's like me finding a text adventure forum and posting over and over that I don't really care about the games they like. It's sort of true but do they need or want to hear that? Some of your posts make me wonder if you are just trolling.

 

 

Because discussions here are fun? You don't think i come here to change minds, or get information, do you?

And who says this site is about old traditional dying MMOs. I like the new solo-friendly more game like lobby like MMOs. This is the perfect place to talk about those.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19731

1/22/14 11:22:07 AM#32
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 


Originally posted by nariusseldon
This is the fallacy of trying to use reasoning, logic or interpreting words literally just to form convenient groupings. You can always find extreme case.

 

The most reasonable thing is to use the common usage.

LoL counts .. why .. because the industry group it so.

Do Facebook games count? No . because by convention, they are grouped as "social games".



but... but... but... I though you cared nothing about "genres", aka "groupings."

 

No i don't .. that is why i use the most convenient definitions instead of banging my head on the wall trying to argue whether farmville should or should not be a MMO.

  User Deleted
1/22/14 11:27:47 AM#33
It's supposed to be the social aspect and ability to play with others, but people are like "we don't care about endgame"" we like leveling" which is pretty much a single player experience. So you can spend a couple months leveling solo and then wind up looking for a group at level cap. That's why leveling needs to dissappear or the genre will.
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19731

1/22/14 11:32:20 AM#34
Originally posted by Rockniss
It's supposed to be the social aspect and ability to play with others, but people are like "we don't care about endgame"" we like leveling" which is pretty much a single player experience. So you can spend a couple months leveling solo and then wind up looking for a group at level cap. That's why leveling needs to dissappear or the genre will.

Or just change the name of the genre. Or just change the meaning, and keep the name. Genre names do not have to be literal.

  Vermillion_Raventhal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/01/04
Posts: 1026

1/22/14 2:42:30 PM#35

LoL is a trimmed down RTS hero battle match.  Its no more of an RPG or I should say less of an RPG then Battlefield 4 which is essentially a persistent world away.  The only reason its compared is because its an online only multiplayer fantasy game.  If it was modern military only it would likely be being compared to FPS games instead.  

 

Comparing how players spend in LoL is not an exact science if players don't spend for the same reasons.  Its not so much that it couldn't be compared but it should be taken in context that LoL is closer to Call of Duty or Battlefield games then WoW.  In fact I think the FPS are closer to true MMO status.

  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4785

1/22/14 2:52:11 PM#36

Spending money on a game is spending money on a game. I don't buy that mmos are unique in why people spend money on them, I think some people justify it differently. It doesn't actually change the fact that you're spending that money for the same reason someone playing a fps does.

There's a saying about evolution and why we have two eyes and two ears but only one mouth. Clearly it didn't see the internet coming or it never would have given us ten fingers to type with.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19731

1/22/14 2:53:52 PM#37
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal

 

 Comparing how players spend in LoL is not an exact science if players don't spend for the same reasons.  Its not so much that it couldn't be compared but it should be taken in context that LoL is closer to Call of Duty or Battlefield games then WoW.  In fact I think the FPS are closer to true MMO status.

There are many FPS that have some RPG elements, and certainly there are MMOFPS.

Again, the actual characterization is incidental.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10633

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

 
OP  1/22/14 3:09:17 PM#38
Originally posted by jesad

I claim the Chewbacca Defense!!

No seriously....

I think for the same reason that LOL tried to keep their professional streamers from streaming MMORPG's.

Forbes Article

It's bad for business.

You, yourself, OP, make the perfect points.  Yes, these genres share a lot of resources.  It would be foolish then for a  site dedicated to one type of game want to direct people to a different kind of game.

For the record, I talk about it all here, but I do so in the proper places.  I do believe that MOBA's, (which are what they are, no idea why you would refer to them as "MMO's" when "MMO" is meaningless other than an abbreviated term for MMORPG), should be discussed here, but not because of the way that they compare or compete but more because of the ways that they could expand.

I've said it before in other strings, I would certainly play an MMORPG that used a MOBA interface were it done properly.  I am also willing to talk about that kind of stuff ad nauseum (when was the last time you heard that one huh?  :) ) as it pertains to improving THIS genre.  What I am not willing to talk about however is why an MMORPG should be adopting the pay systems and other things of games that offer a completely different kinds of play experiences and/or expectations.

Why would I do that?  It makes no sense.  Therefore if Chewbacca lives on Endor then you must acquit!

 

Riot Games is telling people that they are paying a salary that they cannot advertise competitor products.  This wouldn't be terribly different from someone working for Samsung not being allowed to stream advertising for Apple products.  I'm not sure what that has to do with what I'm wondering about.

 

I'm not talking about MMORG.com's business practices.  They have included many games in their game list that are not MMORPGs because they are of interest to MMORPG players.  It's their site and their business.  They can do whatever they want.

 

I'm talking about forum posters who refuse to compare games from different categories, even if what's being compared is one aspect of a game rather than the whole game itself.  They will use the "It's not an MMORPG" as a reason that the person they are replying to is wrong, or the reason that they are right.  My chosen stance is that this is an invalid defense or argument.

 

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19731

1/22/14 3:17:39 PM#39
Originally posted by lizardbones

I'm talking about forum posters who refuse to compare games from different categories, even if what's being compared is one aspect of a game rather than the whole game itself.  They will use the "It's not an MMORPG" as a reason that the person they are replying to is wrong, or the reason that they are right.  My chosen stance is that this is an invalid defense or argument.

 

I agree.

They only have a point if all players only play MMORPGs (by some strict definition) and nothing else. That is not true for me, and not for anyone I know who is playing games.

I wouldn't care less if a game is a "proper" mmo or .. just whether it is a good game. Hence, MMOs and non-MMOs are competing for my time, and so are other forms of entertainment.

  iridescence

Elite Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1227

1/22/14 3:30:40 PM#40
Originally posted by nariusseldon
 

And who says this site is about old traditional dying MMOs. I like the new solo-friendly more game like lobby like MMOs. This is the perfect place to talk about those.

The name of the site should give a clue....There are tons of sites devoted to single player games and co-op lobby  games.

 

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