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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Why are MMORPGs a Special Snowflake?

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71 posts found
  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10880

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

 
OP  1/21/14 7:50:12 AM#1

In many discussions, notably discussions on F2P and Subscriptions, a common response is that people should not compare MMORPGs to games from other genres.  You can't compare WoW to LoL because WoW is an MMORPG and LoL is an MMO.  Is there a justification for this or is it just a tactic to prevent unwanted information from entering a discussion?

 

In the interests of moving things forward, I will take the opinion that not only can games from other genres be compared to MMORPGs, they should.

 

MMORPGs share players with games from other genres.  People who play MMORPGs also play a variety of single player games, multi-player games and MMOs like LoL.

 

MMORPGs share development companies with games from other genres.  It is far more noticeable when a developer only produces an MMORPG, but developers who are successful will tend to develop games in addition to their MMORPG and it seems likely that some of the development is going to be shared across those styles of games.*

 

MMORPGs share monetization systems with games from other genres, most notably in F2P offerings.  MMORPGs do seem to have a lock on subscriptions, but they have incorporated the "cash shop" mechanic for a very long time now.  Even venerated games like Ultima Online have a cash shop.

 

Added: MMORPGs do not operate in a vacuum.  They certainly compete with each other, but they are also competing with games from other genres. Beatnik59

 

So what say you, oh masses of wisdom?  Why should MMORPGs be discussed as if they operate in a vacuum where no other types of games exist?

**

 

* I'm not happy with how I've phrased this.  Hopefully you get the point.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  Dibdabs

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/29/08
Posts: 2472

1/21/14 8:02:55 AM#2
Topics akin to this have been droning on for nearly 15 years now, and it's just grown into tedious nitpicking.  It isn't even an important topic to start with.
  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10880

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

 
OP  1/21/14 8:05:33 AM#3
Originally posted by Dibdabs
Topics akin to this have been droning on for nearly 15 years now, and it's just grown into tedious nitpicking.  It isn't even an important topic to start with.

Wow, somebody woke up grumpy today.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  xeniar

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/09/06
Posts: 816

1/21/14 8:06:56 AM#4

il start with im a gamer wich plays on many gaming fields.

from hack and slashes like diablo and baldurs gate dark alliance

to RTS like the command and conquer series. I like many diffrent types of games because they all bring something unique.

I can find something likeable in diffrent types of genre's, However i am an RPG nut, i just love the story that most of em give and the freedom some of em bring (gems like jade cacoon come to mind). And what stand aboves it is MMORPG's they took normal RPG's to a next level sort of where instead you follow a certain storyline you yourself make the the story. No rails nothing set in stone just you a open world and the possibility's therein.

That is a experience no other form of gaming gave and that is why MMORPG's are special snowflakes.

at least they where until evrything got on rails.

You can argue that it is not on rails but be honest to yourself, There is this path of golden questionmarks laid out for you to follow. And there is not much reason to divert from that path.

future MMORPG's should be about you again. about freedom, about choise and possibility.

Not these on rails questgrind ->instanced dungeon/raid grinds we have right now.

The latter is what i call a mere game. the first was something more

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3880

1/21/14 8:20:03 AM#5

Because I also like discussing digital cameras but I don't do that here.

 

The game I play the most - and it has a multi-player online component - is the NHL game from EA. I've been doing that for 20 years. But I think this is the first time I've ever mentioned it here. It's just irrelevant to MMORPG discussions. This site is not MMO.com. The RPG part is supposed to mean something even though the site itself has blurred the lines with things they chose to cover.

 

There's a convergence happening in digital game playing where all of them are heading toward ever larger number of players in the game interacting with each other as part of the core design (not just lobbies.) Soon, they will all be MMOs. But even then, bringing LOL and Diablo or Crossfire into a discussion about specific mmorpg features (as many already do when it suits the purpose of whatever point they're trying to make) is useless background noise.

  Cecropia

Gumshoe

Joined: 3/06/09
Posts: 3285

Poacher killer.

1/21/14 9:20:31 AM#6
Originally posted by Iselin

Because I also like discussing digital cameras but I don't do that here.

 

The game I play the most - and it has a multi-player online component - is the NHL game from EA. I've been doing that for 20 years. But I think this is the first time I've ever mentioned it here. It's just irrelevant to MMORPG discussions. This site is not MMO.com. The RPG part is supposed to mean something even though the site itself has blurred the lines with things they chose to cover.

 

There's a convergence happening in digital game playing where all of them are heading toward ever larger number of players in the game interacting with each other as part of the core design (not just lobbies.) Soon, they will all be MMOs. But even then, bringing LOL and Diablo or Crossfire into a discussion about specific mmorpg features (as many already do when it suits the purpose of whatever point they're trying to make) is useless background noise.

Yup. The first sentence covers it.

I don't mind if the odd non-mmo finds it's way into this thread or that thread, I also don't mind if this site lists some non-mmo games that people who enjoy mmos might be interested in; this site is a business afterall and has to consider it's future.

What I do mind is the neverending trolling (from specific members of mmorpg.com {who'll be along shortly, no doubt}) that goes on and on about how LoL is an mmo, D3 is an mmo, WoT is an mmo etc. 'cause they're close enough, right? Fuck no! These games have borrowed a couple of mmo features and happen to be online, but that's where it ends. LoL is a MOBA, D3 is an ARPG, and Wot is TPS lobby game. They all have their own respectiive genres already in place. This shouldn't be so confusing for people who frequent a site like this. 

If I went to a site that focused on Horror films, I wouldn't want to spend my time there discussing Romance Comedies. But, but...they are both movie genres, right? They both have actors in them, right? No, that would be idiotic. Which is exactly what we see on these forums on a daily basis.

We as Humans categorize things for a reason; if you struggle with why we do this, then I can only wish you the best in life and good luck out there ;)

"Chuck's a good fighter but he's a UFC fighter... this is Pride." - Quinton Rampage Jackson
"Mr. Rothstein, your people never will understand... the way it works out here. You're all just our guests. But you act like you're at home. Let me tell you something, partner. You ain't home. But that's where we're gonna send you if it harelips the governor." - Pat Webb

  ste2000

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/28/04
Posts: 4735

1/21/14 9:30:20 AM#7
League of Legends (LoL) is a big Battleground, so it is just 20% of WoW, so it should not be compared with it. If you want to compare apples with oranges it is your choice but they have little in common except they are both fruits.
  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10880

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

 
OP  1/21/14 10:12:56 AM#8
Originally posted by Cecropia
Originally posted by Iselin

Because I also like discussing digital cameras but I don't do that here.

 

The game I play the most - and it has a multi-player online component - is the NHL game from EA. I've been doing that for 20 years. But I think this is the first time I've ever mentioned it here. It's just irrelevant to MMORPG discussions. This site is not MMO.com. The RPG part is supposed to mean something even though the site itself has blurred the lines with things they chose to cover.

 

There's a convergence happening in digital game playing where all of them are heading toward ever larger number of players in the game interacting with each other as part of the core design (not just lobbies.) Soon, they will all be MMOs. But even then, bringing LOL and Diablo or Crossfire into a discussion about specific mmorpg features (as many already do when it suits the purpose of whatever point they're trying to make) is useless background noise.

Yup. The first sentence covers it.

I don't mind if the odd non-mmo finds it's way into this thread or that thread, I also don't mind if this site lists some non-mmo games that people who enjoy mmos might be interested in; this site is a business afterall and has to consider it's future.

What I do mind is the neverending trolling (from specific members of mmorpg.com {who'll be along shortly, no doubt}) that goes on and on about how LoL is an mmo, D3 is an mmo, WoT is an mmo etc. 'cause they're close enough, right? Fuck no! These games have borrowed a couple of mmo features and happen to be online, but that's where it ends. LoL is a MOBA, D3 is an ARPG, and Wot is TPS lobby game. They all have their own respectiive genres already in place. This shouldn't be so confusing for people who frequent a site like this. 

If I went to a site that focused on Horror films, I wouldn't want to spend my time there discussing Romance Comedies. But, but...they are both movie genres, right? They both have actors in them, right? No, that would be idiotic. Which is exactly what we see on these forums on a daily basis.

We as Humans categorize things for a reason; if you struggle with why we do this, then I can only wish you the best in life and good luck out there ;)

 

A discussion about whether or not D3 is an MMO, and what an MMO is covers a little different territory than declaring that you can't compare e.g. SWToR and LoL's monetization models.

 

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  iridescence

Elite Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1351

1/21/14 11:59:52 AM#9

RPGs in general tend to be completely different from other games can you compare D&D to chess or even the war games it partly descended from really? RPGs are huge ongoing time investments which aren't really winnable in the conventional sense a game is winnable. 

 

I think MMORPGs are *losing* their distinctiveness though  as companies bent on attracting a wider audience strip all the unique RPG elements out of them.  I don't see this ending well for this genre in the long-run as other types of games tend to do specific "game things" like combat or story or graphics better than MMOs. MMOs I think need some kind of unique hook to attract people to them.

 

Hopefully someone will come along and revolutionize the genre by making MMORPGs more unique from other games again.Otherwise I really see games like LoL completely taking over from MMORPGs in a few years.

 

  Beatnik59

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/23/05
Posts: 2235

"Playing things I shouldn''t be playing since 1977."

1/21/14 12:57:59 PM#10

I think they can be compared and should be compared...simply because MMORPGs are in competition from other formats for the same customers.  Other genres can be compared to MMORPGs on the basis of better/faster/cheaper.  In other words, some genres can give you /better/ than an MMORPG, some genres can give you the thing /faster/ than an MMORPG, and some genres can give you the thing more /cheaply/ than an MMORPG.

Cinematics?  There are games out there that can give you better/faster/cheaper than MMORPGs.

PvP?  There are games out there that can give you better/faster/cheaper than MMORPGs.

Roleplay?  There are games out there that can give you better/faster/cheaper than MMORPGs.

Worlds?  There are games out there that can give you better/faster/cheaper than MMORPGs.

Story?  There are games out there that can give you better/faster/cheaper than MMORPGs.

What the MMORPG had as its atvantage going into the 2000s was that it can do the same things solo or peer-to-peer games did, but more /cheaply/, or with /better/ quality or at a /faster/ rate.  These days, however, are different.

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  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20139

1/21/14 5:07:01 PM#11

I agreed 100% with the op.

i play games, not mmorpgs. And d3, lol .. are close enough to mmorpgs to be in the discussions. If you do not agree with this opinion do not have to read or response to posts mentioning other close enough games. People who want to shut people up dont realize that it is futile anyway.

i have just mentioned d3 in this post, i doubt it is going to be taken down just because of that.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20139

1/21/14 5:09:15 PM#12
Originally posted by iridescence

RPGs in general tend to be completely different from other games can you compare D&D to chess or even the war games it partly descended from really? RPGs are huge ongoing time investments which aren't really winnable in the conventional sense a game is winnable. 

 

I think MMORPGs are *losing* their distinctiveness though  as companies bent on attracting a wider audience strip all the unique RPG elements out of them.  I don't see this ending well for this genre in the long-run as other types of games tend to do specific "game things" like combat or story or graphics better than MMOs. MMOs I think need some kind of unique hook to attract people to them.

 

Hopefully someone will come along and revolutionize the genre by making MMORPGs more unique from other games again.Otherwise I really see games like LoL completely taking over from MMORPGs in a few years.

 

So what if lol is taking over. If i dont like it, i will just play something else.

And there is innovation .. Like destiny. But the end result may not be a mmo, which is totally fine with me.

  xeniar

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/09/06
Posts: 816

1/21/14 6:23:17 PM#13
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by iridescence

RPGs in general tend to be completely different from other games can you compare D&D to chess or even the war games it partly descended from really? RPGs are huge ongoing time investments which aren't really winnable in the conventional sense a game is winnable. 

 

I think MMORPGs are *losing* their distinctiveness though  as companies bent on attracting a wider audience strip all the unique RPG elements out of them.  I don't see this ending well for this genre in the long-run as other types of games tend to do specific "game things" like combat or story or graphics better than MMOs. MMOs I think need some kind of unique hook to attract people to them.

 

Hopefully someone will come along and revolutionize the genre by making MMORPGs more unique from other games again.Otherwise I really see games like LoL completely taking over from MMORPGs in a few years.

 

So what if lol is taking over. If i dont like it, i will just play something else.

And there is innovation .. Like destiny. But the end result may not be a mmo, which is totally fine with me.

destiny innovation how?

  Tibernicuspa

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/03/13
Posts: 986

1/21/14 6:51:54 PM#14
Originally posted by xeniar
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by iridescence

RPGs in general tend to be completely different from other games can you compare D&D to chess or even the war games it partly descended from really? RPGs are huge ongoing time investments which aren't really winnable in the conventional sense a game is winnable. 

 

I think MMORPGs are *losing* their distinctiveness though  as companies bent on attracting a wider audience strip all the unique RPG elements out of them.  I don't see this ending well for this genre in the long-run as other types of games tend to do specific "game things" like combat or story or graphics better than MMOs. MMOs I think need some kind of unique hook to attract people to them.

 

Hopefully someone will come along and revolutionize the genre by making MMORPGs more unique from other games again.Otherwise I really see games like LoL completely taking over from MMORPGs in a few years.

 

So what if lol is taking over. If i dont like it, i will just play something else.

And there is innovation .. Like destiny. But the end result may not be a mmo, which is totally fine with me.

destiny innovation how?

Because marketing says so.

 

Anyway, are MMORPGs special snowflakes? Yes. Simulating a virtual world and pleasing people over the course of years is a lot harder than pleasing servers of 10 players for a round.

  JJ82

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/02/13
Posts: 999

1/21/14 7:02:41 PM#15
Originally posted by lizardbones

So what say you, oh masses of wisdom?  Why should MMORPGs be discussed as if they operate in a vacuum where no other types of games exist?

 It depends on the discussion.

Comparing an MMORPG and an MMO, can and often SHOULD be done. Comparing an MMORPG and a racing game rarely ever should. One is in continual development with a persistent world, the other is neither of those.  Comparing an MMORPG to an SRPG can be done more often because the share the RPG factor, but it also heavily depends on the topic.

"People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

  iridescence

Elite Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1351

1/21/14 7:14:32 PM#16
Originally posted by nariusseldon
 

So what if lol is taking over. If i dont like it, i will just play something else.

And there is innovation .. Like destiny. But the end result may not be a mmo, which is totally fine with me.

If you don't like MMORPGs I guess you wouldn't care. People who do like them or at least the idea of them would be sad to see them die out. Is that really very hard for you to understand?

 

  Scorchien

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/12/06
Posts: 1100

1/21/14 7:27:28 PM#17

Thats the first problem LoL isnt an MMO and shouldnt be on this site or in the discussion..

  Helleri

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/26/08
Posts: 773

“If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.”- Henry Ford

1/21/14 9:47:46 PM#18

" The Pub at MMORPG.com

Use this forum to talk about MMORPGs. Please stay on the topic about MMORPGs and use the "off-topic" forum for unrelated posts. "

 

To my satisfaction...Answered.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20139

1/22/14 12:15:21 AM#19
Originally posted by xeniar
 

destiny innovation how?

seamless matching .. without even pushing a button ... sounds pretty new to me.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20139

1/22/14 12:16:37 AM#20
Originally posted by Tibernicuspa

Anyway, are MMORPGs special snowflakes? Yes. Simulating a virtual world and pleasing people over the course of years is a lot harder than pleasing servers of 10 players for a round.

If simulating a virtual world is not that pleasing .. well .. ditch it, and do something else like arena or battleground. Wait .. that is exactly where the genre is going.

 

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