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General Discussion

General Discussion 

The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » New data settles it, F2P makes much more money than P2P

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513 posts found
  lizardbones

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10953

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

1/20/14 8:44:11 PM#81
Originally posted by Boreil
Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by Myria

So basically F2P makes more money than P2P as long as you ignore pesky little things like income from subs?

 

Definitely useful information.

This would be the relevent information for you to see.  This is the U.S. digital games market.

 

 

F2P and DLC make more money than subscriptions for digital games.  Even if all of WoW's remaining subscribers bought boxes, that doesn't make up the difference between Subscriptions and F2P revenues.

 

So so wrong, not even worth going into how much so.

 

Well, it is certainly very easy to say something is wrong without actually supportting an opinion.  Can't blame you for taking the easy way out.

 

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  Nevulus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/23/06
Posts: 1290

1/20/14 8:44:49 PM#82
Originally posted by Fractal_Analogy
Originally posted by nariusseldon

reposting the link from another topic:

http://www.superdataresearch.com/blog/us-digital-games-market/

But the point is:

In the top 10 money making games (and most listed here on MMORPG.com), all but ONE is sub-only (WOW).

And wow is only #7, and making less than half compared to LoL.

This pretty much shows that to make money, F2P beats P2P, and often you don't even need a virtual world.

 

I think you are some what mistaken, or misguided here.

It shows that Free to Play games offer the quickest Return on Investment (ROI). Those statistic do not incorporate encompassing metrics, and are pretty much marketing jibberish. (neatly done though)

 

Don't be fooled. I can open the scale/metrics of those stats, and make those exact same statistic sing a different tune. Also, I don't find any relevance here, as your assessment seems jaded aswell. Because very few here within these forums would care about those games..  not one is what a typical adult gamer would even consider, most are Command & Conquer, RTS style of games, are they not?

Not sure of the relevance on this site.

 

Yeah i'm not sure the OP gets it at all. 

Also this is now the 4th post about the SAME TOPIC. That constitutes as spam in my book. I wonder if its reportable?

 

on another note Joost over at Superdata is a great guy, and a great mind, as well as fellow NYU resident. At the firm I worked in we used their data for various prospects and financial models and would take their data as more of a reputable source than the armchair devs on these forums. But please take note that their data set is pulled from the companies themselves and the companies do not need to justify their number if they chose not to. The data cannot be extrapolated from their financial statements alone, and that is done on purpose.

  laokoko

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/14/09
Posts: 1937

1/20/14 8:52:40 PM#83

^ well I want to say the number for lineage can't be right.  That number most likely include both subscription and microtransaction.  Since from the NCsoft financial report, that is what it looks like.

The thing is I don't think anyone would be able to have a total accurate data.  So I think people should just take it as what it is.

  plat0nic

Novice Member

Joined: 11/20/03
Posts: 303

1/20/14 8:52:46 PM#84
this argument has been settled years ago :)


Main Game: Eldevin (Plat0nic)
2nd Game: Path of Exile (Platonic Hate)

  Mathadar

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/05
Posts: 24

1/20/14 8:53:09 PM#85
 And yet another failed attempt from the f2p players. Keep them coming  I enjoy a good laugh.
  lizardbones

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10953

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

1/20/14 8:55:48 PM#86

Try this infographic out.

http://www.superdataresearch.com/blog/infographic-digital-games-year-review-2013/

 

P2P = 2.8B in sales, F2P = 8.3B in sales.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  Fractal_Analogy

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/19/14
Posts: 18

1/20/14 9:06:57 PM#87
Originally posted by lizardbones

Try this infographic out.

http://www.superdataresearch.com/blog/infographic-digital-games-year-review-2013/

 

P2P = 2.8B in sales, F2P = 8.3B in sales.

 

This thread seems very odd, instead of extrapolating the info, most here have no interest in discussing the data properly, but claiming some type of victory for a certain business model..?

What ever happened to each his own..?  Everyone has an opinion, but no need to run from the facts?

 

I wish I could run those metrics for you guys (but I am bound by contract), but has anyone else tried to extrapolate those metrics down to genre..? Also, what is the relevance of a non-MMORPG games, within a MMORPG board? Please explain, I find it incredibly interesting.

 

 

 

  CazNeerg

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/04
Posts: 2220

"So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb." Dark Helmet

1/20/14 9:08:18 PM#88

 

Originally posted by STYNKFYST
Not sure why or how these threads get started or why anyone would believe the numbers. Obvious to me the quality = Sub or AT LEAST B2P. F2P has NEVER been as good.

What does "quality" have to do with this topic?  The statement was that F2P, as a category, makes more money than P2P, as a category.  All available data seems to indicate that statement is accurate.

If when you said quality, you meant financial success, please, present us with the data you are using to question the validity of this report.

Originally posted by Fractal_Analogy

 

 What at extremely odd view..  

You are suggesting that a Public views on a game, have zero relevance..?  Or, are you simply stating that you are a bottom-line fella..? You base success not on how well the populace likes a game, but on how much money it makes..?

 Is Battlefield 4 a success..? If, so, to whom, plz.

I am suggesting that there is no such thing as "the" end user.  There are as many opinions on a given game as there are people who played that game, all with their own specific likes and dislikes.  The only practical measure of what "the Public" as a whole thinks about a game is how well that game does financially.  If it does well enough to be profitable, then as much of the public liked it as the developer needed to like it.  After that point, we are just talking about degrees of success, failure is no longer in the conversation.

Originally posted by lizardbones

Originally posted by Boreil
 

So so wrong, not even worth going into how much so.

Well, it is certainly very easy to say something is wrong without actually supportting an opinion.  Can't blame you for taking the easy way out.

Don't you understand how the internet works yet?  Facts are only relevant when they support your position!  Obviously you aren't going to get specific about how facts are incorrect if you don't have access to any evidence which contradicts them.

 

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

  Horusra

Elite Member

Joined: 6/26/05
Posts: 2388

1/20/14 9:11:55 PM#89
Before saying f2p makes more money than p2p I want to see a breakdown.  How many f2p sources is that cash between compaired to p2p?  3 million between 2 people is a lot better than 6 million between 100 people.
  DamonVile

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4909

1/20/14 9:15:24 PM#90
Originally posted by laokoko

That data seemed not very accurate.  NCSoft actually release their financial report. 

There is no way lineage make that much revenue from micro transaction.  They dont' even make that much in total sales including subscription.  And revenue != sales.

I dont' even know how they get all those data from. 

They explain why it's on the chart at all and where the money came from....read it.

  Fractal_Analogy

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/19/14
Posts: 18

1/20/14 9:19:35 PM#91
Originally posted by CazNeerg

 

.

Originally posted by Fractal_Analogy

 

 What at extremely odd view..  

You are suggesting that a Public views on a game, have zero relevance..?  Or, are you simply stating that you are a bottom-line fella..? You base success not on how well the populace likes a game, but on how much money it makes..?

 Is Battlefield 4 a success..? If, so, to whom, plz.

I am suggesting that there is no such thing as "the" end user.  There are as many opinions on a given game as there are people who played that game, all with their own specific likes and dislikes.  The only practical measure of what "the Public" as a whole thinks about a game is how well that game does financially.  If it does well enough to be profitable, then as much of the public liked it as the developer needed to like it.  After that point, we are just talking about degrees of success, failure is no longer in the conversation.
 

 

 

I understand now. You tie no importance to the "community" that supports games.

 

Very Common mistake with people who are untrained and ignore the aspect of certain social & psychological sciences associated with non-single player games.

  lizardbones

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10953

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

1/20/14 9:21:53 PM#92
Originally posted by Fractal_Analogy
Originally posted by lizardbones

Try this infographic out.

http://www.superdataresearch.com/blog/infographic-digital-games-year-review-2013/

 

P2P = 2.8B in sales, F2P = 8.3B in sales.

 

This thread seems very odd, instead of extrapolating the info, most here have no interest in discussing the data properly, but claiming some type of victory for a certain business model..?

What ever happened to each his own..?  Everyone has an opinion, but no need to run from the facts?

 

I wish I could run those metrics for you guys (but I am bound by contract), but has anyone else tried to extrapolate those metrics down to genre..? Also, what is the relevance of a non-MMORPG games, within a MMORPG board? Please explain, I find it incredibly interesting.

 

 

 

 

I'm not even sure that most of the people commenting have even looked at any of these infographics.  In any event, the kinds of questions you're asking are not even possible for us to answer, regardless of which side of the fence we're on.

 

I will attempt to answer some of your questions though.

 

The different monetization models can be applied to pretty much any game.  In this the models are game independent.  Someone who is looking to build an MMORPG isn't going to just look at MMORPG models, they're going to look at other models as well and how well they perform.  We're not developers, but we are talking about the merits of the business models, so if it's fair for a developer to look at different business models and how they are applied to other games, it should be fair for us.

 

In short:

You get used to it after awhile.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  inemosz

Novice Member

Joined: 3/13/12
Posts: 384

1/20/14 9:22:31 PM#93
Originally posted by Eighteen16
Wait so the OP thought that Wow is making 200 mil a year when they get more than 100 mil a MONTH just from subs? This data officially settles that people who support F2P are delusional. 

how about you read the article first?

  Hanthos

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/17/13
Posts: 228

PROUD P2P Elitist...

1/20/14 9:27:17 PM#94
Originally posted by FlyByKnight

its funny when sheep call other people sheep because they're too dense to realize they're the sheep.

 

f2p is a viable business model because developers make more money with less content responsibility

p2p business models are weakening because the developers aren't able to keep up with normal p2p content demands (due to increasing technology costs)

 

None of the above have to do with if a title is "good" or not.

 

Keep your stupid ethnocentric middle america bubble world view out of the conversation.  It's irrelevant... and stupid.

So says a Sheep, desperately trying to maintain a perceived relevance that it never had through the use of childish insults and cheap $5 words. 

F2P is only viable as a model as long as PT Barnum's theory holds true.

P2P games are failing based purely on poor game design and listening to accountants short term ideas rather than customers. 

  CazNeerg

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/04
Posts: 2220

"So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb." Dark Helmet

1/20/14 9:28:31 PM#95
Originally posted by Fractal_Analogy
 

I understand now. You tie no importance to the "community" that supports games. 

Very Common mistake with people who are untrained and ignore the aspect of certain social & psychological sciences associated with non-single player games.

Lol.  Please explain how your point is relevant to this topic.  And since you appear to be defining "community" as referring solely to the people who dislike a game, while ignoring those who like it enough to spend money on it, explain that choice as well.

Originally posted by Hanthos
 

F2P is only viable as a model as long as PT Barnum's theory holds true.

P2P games are failing based purely on poor game design and listening to accountants short term ideas rather than customers. 

A theory which will hold true as long as people exist.

The model of relying solely on subs for revenue is failing because, given the truth of Barnum's theory, it is an objectively inefficient model.  "Poor game design" has nothing to do with it.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

  DamonVile

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4909

1/20/14 9:31:59 PM#96
Originally posted by CazNeerg
Originally posted by Fractal_Analogy
 

I understand now. You tie no importance to the "community" that supports games. 

Very Common mistake with people who are untrained and ignore the aspect of certain social & psychological sciences associated with non-single player games.

Lol.  Please explain how your point is relevant to this topic.  And since you appear to be defining "community" as referring solely to the people who dislike a game, while ignoring those who like it enough to spend money on it, explain that choice as well.

You're about to get an " I'm an internet expert that works for a company that I can't name but it lets me know everything about mmos" post.

  Fractal_Analogy

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/19/14
Posts: 18

1/20/14 9:33:20 PM#97
Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by Fractal_Analogy
Originally posted by lizardbones

Try this infographic out.

http://www.superdataresearch.com/blog/infographic-digital-games-year-review-2013/

 

P2P = 2.8B in sales, F2P = 8.3B in sales.

 

This thread seems very odd, instead of extrapolating the info, most here have no interest in discussing the data properly, but claiming some type of victory for a certain business model..?

What ever happened to each his own..?  Everyone has an opinion, but no need to run from the facts?

 

I wish I could run those metrics for you guys (but I am bound by contract), but has anyone else tried to extrapolate those metrics down to genre..? Also, what is the relevance of a non-MMORPG games, within a MMORPG board? Please explain, I find it incredibly interesting.

 

 

 

 

I'm not even sure that most of the people commenting have even looked at any of these infographics.  In any event, the kinds of questions you're asking are not even possible for us to answer, regardless of which side of the fence we're on.

 

I will attempt to answer some of your questions though.

 

The different monetization models can be applied to pretty much any game.  In this the models are game independent.  Someone who is looking to build an MMORPG isn't going to just look at MMORPG models, they're going to look at other models as well and how well they perform.  We're not developers, but we are talking about the merits of the business models, so if it's fair for a developer to look at different business models and how they are applied to other games, it should be fair for us.

 

In short:

 

You get used to it after awhile.

 

I agree with the over-all sentiment, but the word "can"..  can also be applied to anything. So can we discuss any business plan, that has any video game attached to it.

What about Atari Adventure..?

 

Then, to what end, to what cause..? Doing so is extremely silly and (errr) childish? Not to insult anyone, but I believe most here are either in College, Graduated, or at least somewhat Highschool educated. Why the sloppy focus?

 

 

  lizardbones

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10953

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

1/20/14 10:07:33 PM#98
Originally posted by Fractal_Analogy
Originally posted by lizardbones
Originally posted by Fractal_Analogy
Originally posted by lizardbones

Try this infographic out.

http://www.superdataresearch.com/blog/infographic-digital-games-year-review-2013/

 

P2P = 2.8B in sales, F2P = 8.3B in sales.

 

This thread seems very odd, instead of extrapolating the info, most here have no interest in discussing the data properly, but claiming some type of victory for a certain business model..?

What ever happened to each his own..?  Everyone has an opinion, but no need to run from the facts?

 

I wish I could run those metrics for you guys (but I am bound by contract), but has anyone else tried to extrapolate those metrics down to genre..? Also, what is the relevance of a non-MMORPG games, within a MMORPG board? Please explain, I find it incredibly interesting.

 

 

 

 

I'm not even sure that most of the people commenting have even looked at any of these infographics.  In any event, the kinds of questions you're asking are not even possible for us to answer, regardless of which side of the fence we're on.

 

I will attempt to answer some of your questions though.

 

The different monetization models can be applied to pretty much any game.  In this the models are game independent.  Someone who is looking to build an MMORPG isn't going to just look at MMORPG models, they're going to look at other models as well and how well they perform.  We're not developers, but we are talking about the merits of the business models, so if it's fair for a developer to look at different business models and how they are applied to other games, it should be fair for us.

 

In short:

 

You get used to it after awhile.

 

I agree with the over-all sentiment, but the word "can"..  can also be applied to anything. So can we discuss any business plan, that has any video game attached to it.

What about Atari Adventure..?

 

Then, to what end, to what cause..? Doing so is extremely silly and (errr) childish? Not to insult anyone, but I believe most here are either in College, Graduated, or at least somewhat Highschool educated. Why the sloppy focus?

 

 

 

You're over thinking this.  It's forum PvP.

 

Two kids are in a yard playing "Wizards".  One shouts, "Fireball!" at the other kid.  The other kid shouts, "Ice Wall!"  Then, the first kid says, "Fireballs melt ice walls!"  The second kid says, "Not if it's an arctic ice wall!"  The first kid says, "That doesn't matter, it's a Fireball!"  The second kid says, "Yes it does, an arctic ice wall is minus 50 degrees celcius.  The fireball doesn't last long enough to increase the temperature of the ice to melt it!"  The first kid says, "What?!?  It's ice, it can only get to 32 degrees farenheit!"  The second kid says, "Nuh uh!"  And so on.

 

However, if you need a rule, the OP opened the topic up to MMORPGs, MMOs and digital games in general by introducing the information in the initial post.  The topic could be taken as monetization models in general.  Outside elements can be introduced so long as they are of interest to MMORPG players and someone responds to it, taking it seriously**.

 

Also, Atari Adventure was B2P with no cash shop.  You can't make a comparison with digital only games when your example only exists as a physical copy. ** <- like this.

 

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  lizardbones

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10953

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

1/20/14 10:11:02 PM#99
Originally posted by CazNeerg
Don't you understand how the internet works yet?  Facts are only relevant when they support your position!  Obviously you aren't going to get specific about how facts are incorrect if you don't have access to any evidence which contradicts them.

 

 

:-)

 

You have any facts to back that up?  Hmmm?

 

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  Arthasm

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/26/09
Posts: 747

1/20/14 10:43:16 PM#100
Wait, with 2-3 p2p games and billions of f2p - f2p makes more money? Wow, like I need to read some data.
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