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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » F2P The GOOD The BAD and the UGLY

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39 posts found
  thark

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/01/03
Posts: 1107

 
OP  1/21/14 11:36:50 AM#21
Originally posted by Superman0X
Originally posted by thark
Originally posted by Barrikor

Please google FTP and F2P..... They are completely different acronyms.

Just did and sorry I don't see that there is a diffrence in most cases , they mean the same thing and if it so happens that anyone is using this or that to describe 2 diffrent plenomenas, I Think it's a coincidence.

I see that in Wikipedia they have mentioned F2P as a note to what happened to valves Team Fortress 2 , when they converted this game to Free to Play and download..

But this is the same but just the "cooler" internet lingo version of FTP.

 

My guess is that you mean this !!

FTP = A game that is Free to Play from the getgo

F2P =  A game that once was Pay to Play and now has been converted to Free to Play..

But again, this is not common knowlege ..anywhere :) 

 

FTP = File Transfer Protocol (Hence the UDP joke)

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Next in our series:

 

UDP: Every which way but loose?

F2P = Free to Play. You can find a reasonable definition on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-to-play

 

Most of us were able to determine what you were trying to say, because of where you posted this (mmorpg), and the details of your original post. The rest were just making fun of you. Dont be offended, this forum is a tough crowd.

 

 

Lol..Ok..I see now, and I did not notice this as I used both in my google search at the same time..

Naturally ..File transfer protocol has been around abit longer than F2P..

Hopefully...no one thought I was posting about file transfers :)

  Ender4

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/18/08
Posts: 2053

1/21/14 11:49:38 AM#22

You are confusing F2P with cash shop in a lot of this. Most of your negatives exist in current B2P games as well. You can play Path of Exile without spending a single penny, same with Hearthstone, same with League of Legends. A game like SWTOR or Rift give you so many restrictions it isn't really F2P long, they also don't count as F2P since they started B2P.

I don't for one minute believe F2P games can't have the same production costs either, that is just a stereotype. Both games rely on getting most of their money back post release and the F2P model has shown to be more profitable than the P2P model. Investors know this information as well.

  thark

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/01/03
Posts: 1107

 
OP  1/21/14 3:09:37 PM#23
Originally posted by Ender4

You are confusing F2P with cash shop in a lot of this. Most of your negatives exist in current B2P games as well. You can play Path of Exile without spending a single penny, same with Hearthstone, same with League of Legends. A game like SWTOR or Rift give you so many restrictions it isn't really F2P long, they also don't count as F2P since they started B2P.

I don't for one minute believe F2P games can't have the same production costs either, that is just a stereotype. Both games rely on getting most of their money back post release and the F2P model has shown to be more profitable than the P2P model. Investors know this information as well.

I agree with you that SWTOR and Rift doesn't Count as "real" F2P games, I mentioned this in my post, It doesnt stop players to belive that this is the norm for a F2P title, Its part of the ugly truth.

Also, yeah ..I can play any F2P title for free , that is not what I'm talking about , It's more in the lines of ...what a dreadful Community it creates ..spoiled brats ..that only demands and gives Close to nothing but trouble back. In turn it creates suspect developers that creates game upon game with diffrent title with the lowest possible development cost, this in turn forces the "good!" developers to use these payment models aswell.

And ...ofcourse there is negative things about almost any game type, genre and buisness model, nothing is perfect . But this model is the ugliest , because it has so many dark sides to it , both in the eyes of developers and It's players.

  dave6660

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/26/08
Posts: 2335

"Next time I see you, remind me not to talk to you."

1/21/14 4:04:52 PM#24
Originally posted by Loktofeit

Next in our series:

 

UDP: Every which way but loose?

Nah.. UDP is transport layer, we're talking application layer here.  Let's do NTP next.

"Why so serious?"
-- The Joker

  RealmLordsKen

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/09/08
Posts: 272

1/21/14 4:10:57 PM#25
Originally posted by Loktofeit

Next in our series:

 

UDP: Every which way but loose?

 

I don't get the *connection*.

 

*BIG GRIN*

 

If I just uttered incomprehensible gibberish, assume that I'm tweaking. It happens.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12108

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

1/21/14 4:54:30 PM#26
Originally posted by dave6660
Originally posted by Loktofeit

Next in our series:

 

UDP: Every which way but loose?

Nah.. UDP is transport layer, we're talking application layer here.  Let's do NTP next.

I've been outgeeked!

Very well, then...

 

NTP: Where Eagles Dare

 

;) 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fovoroth

  JJ82

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/02/13
Posts: 917

1/21/14 5:05:02 PM#27
Originally posted by thark

GOOD

2. It makes MMO's comming to consoles easier, wich in turn ..well makes the MMO's yet even bigger new player and fanbase.

BAD

1. As in the first good Points it also Draws a a healthy number of players that(I'd say most of them) ..well, basically has no interesst in actually playing this game, they are just in there to check it out, gloat , stir up some trouble then leave.

2. You WILL never see a free to play game with the same amount budgets as for example..SWTOR and TSW ..There is simply to much risktaking in creating such a expensive game with the risk of loosing it all. Atleast Neverwinter sold pioneer packs at release, but still Neverwinter is far from a high budget MMO.

3 The Item Store, If you like huge roleplaying Worlds (Like I do) ..This will take down the immersion to almost the bottom, there is nothing as horrible than to be reminded about the itemstore at each click of your mouse. and the Items that are only available in a store is stupid, where did they come from ? How did they end up in this World ? Yeah, via a virtual store..well

4 It creates players that..much like the Community that plays pirated games, takes every released game for granted. If It comes with a cost, they will scream and shout and curse the developer for not letting them play this game since it's their given right and can play every other game that is FTP.

5 As in Point 4 of the good track , it generates a high amount of games that was never intended to be a FTP title, yet now they are like SWTOR, AoC and LOTRO . Games with such a high production values are now a FTP title among the rest of the rotten fruits that floats around in this market. 

The UGLY.

1 .It generates some good amount of Money grabbing developers that, well ..Only generates FTP game after FTP as cheap as possible  

 Hard to take this post seriously with such horrible points being made like ones I quoted above that can either be applied also to Sub based games or also to large budget games, and as in the one stating we wont see F2P games with budgets like SWTOR.......are we supposed to WANT companies to spend large amounts of money to create crap games?!? You even listed SWTOR as a rotten fruit later on!

As for the first point made, F2P games have been around since 1996 so it makes no sense at all.

"People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

  thark

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/01/03
Posts: 1107

 
OP  1/21/14 10:30:17 PM#28
Originally posted by JJ82
Originally posted by thark

GOOD

2. It makes MMO's comming to consoles easier, wich in turn ..well makes the MMO's yet even bigger new player and fanbase.

BAD

1. As in the first good Points it also Draws a a healthy number of players that(I'd say most of them) ..well, basically has no interesst in actually playing this game, they are just in there to check it out, gloat , stir up some trouble then leave.

2. You WILL never see a free to play game with the same amount budgets as for example..SWTOR and TSW ..There is simply to much risktaking in creating such a expensive game with the risk of loosing it all. Atleast Neverwinter sold pioneer packs at release, but still Neverwinter is far from a high budget MMO.

3 The Item Store, If you like huge roleplaying Worlds (Like I do) ..This will take down the immersion to almost the bottom, there is nothing as horrible than to be reminded about the itemstore at each click of your mouse. and the Items that are only available in a store is stupid, where did they come from ? How did they end up in this World ? Yeah, via a virtual store..well

4 It creates players that..much like the Community that plays pirated games, takes every released game for granted. If It comes with a cost, they will scream and shout and curse the developer for not letting them play this game since it's their given right and can play every other game that is FTP.

5 As in Point 4 of the good track , it generates a high amount of games that was never intended to be a FTP title, yet now they are like SWTOR, AoC and LOTRO . Games with such a high production values are now a FTP title among the rest of the rotten fruits that floats around in this market. 

The UGLY.

1 .It generates some good amount of Money grabbing developers that, well ..Only generates FTP game after FTP as cheap as possible  

 Hard to take this post seriously with such horrible points being made like ones I quoted above that can either be applied also to Sub based games or also to large budget games, and as in the one stating we wont see F2P games with budgets like SWTOR.......are we supposed to WANT companies to spend large amounts of money to create crap games?!? You even listed SWTOR as a rotten fruit later on!

As for the first point made, F2P games have been around since 1996 so it makes no sense at all.

Ok..My English may not be the best..But I most certainly not wrote any of the conclusions you say here..Go back and read it again..

SWTOR for example is in with the rotten fruits ,,,and get's its good name spoiled.

I used SWTOR as an example of a high budget game, If it's good or not thats well a matter of taste..It's a good example , and I Think you know it. :)

Also, some of my Points may also be applied to a SUB game, but what diffrence does that do. There is alot of GOOD/BAD and UGLY in the software game buisness if you so like..Most of the time i used them as examples of them getting bad publicity because of todays F2P market. People demanding them to go F2P for example, before they even are released as in the case of TESO.

  Shoko_Lied

Novice Member

Joined: 5/07/07
Posts: 2110

SWG Publish 4 Jedi:Flurry: TKM unlock

1/22/14 12:17:42 AM#29
Swtor isn't really F2P. It's Freemium. It makes money off of giving restriction. In comparison, F2P offers the full experience and gives out fluff to people who support the game.
  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3045

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

1/22/14 1:11:03 AM#30


Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by DMKano

Originally posted by thark
3 It costs less to develop, just start up the cashshop and let the game generate Money. and It let's itself develop over time and popularity.

100% wrong.

Any company who has implemented a microtrans cash shop is laughing at this.

cash shops require, billing and audit systems that can process real time payment transactions (sub games run payments once per month or less, they don't need an expensive platform keeping track of every billiny 24/7 transaction). Also you need additional personnel for charge backs and fraud due to high number of payments.

Then you have business intelligence and monetization teams to do metrics and analysis on economy and player spending trends.

Sub games dont need these teams.

Cash shops require more devs and additional teams to run - its a lot more expensive option than subscription option.



I'd listen to this guy. From my experience, he's spot on.

Are you certain? Double check what I underlined. Sub games (especially today) ALSO have 24/7 billings in place as they also have cash shops. Even in the "old days", sub games billed DAILY, not once "(or fewer)" times a month. Every player had a different "billing date." My billing dates changed if I un-subbed to take a break and re-subbed again later on a different date. Sub games ALSO have to deal with chargeback and fraud ON A DAILY BASIS.

High number of payments? I thought most "studies" agree that only a percentage (NOT 100%) of players actually pay. With sub games, EVERY player pays every month. Volume may vary a little, but I do not see it as "a lot."

Today, it is a rare sub game that does not ALSO have a cash shop, just like F2P.

Why do F2P games require more devs? How? Do some of them design money for the cash shops? Sub games and F2P games BOTH design aspects of the game, called assets. HOW those assets are used (cash shop or included) does not require more developers, just more suits with charts and graphs. Wait, are developers needed to create these charts and graphs? In any case, sub games ALSO have marketing professionals, just like F2P games.

Lok, I am surprised at your agreement with this load of crap. All businesses have their various departments. Some may be larger than others, but they still exist. The ONLY difference I agree with DMKano with is the 24/7 charge capability. That is NOT tremendously more expensive. It is a little bit different code variables being written into the software.

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4593

1/22/14 2:54:49 AM#31

He means you pay once a month or less depending on your sub. In a f2p you may do a transaction multiple times a day depending on what you're buying. Which means lots of I clicked the wrong thing, I didn't get my item this second, I don't want this blah blah blah.

 

People are like cats. When they die, you get a new one.

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5217

1/22/14 4:18:36 AM#32
Originally posted by Ender4

You are confusing F2P with cash shop in a lot of this. Most of your negatives exist in current B2P games as well. You can play Path of Exile without spending a single penny, same with Hearthstone, same with League of Legends. A game like SWTOR or Rift give you so many restrictions it isn't really F2P long, they also don't count as F2P since they started B2P.

I don't for one minute believe F2P games can't have the same production costs either, that is just a stereotype. Both games rely on getting most of their money back post release and the F2P model has shown to be more profitable than the P2P model. Investors know this information as well.

Very good point, I often talk about the awful issues I think that F2P engenders, but many of them are found in any game with a cash shop. I see the detrimental impact of the cash shop being worse in F2P games though.

I don't take your point on production costs mind you. Although things may change in the future F2P MMOs are not being built with the same level of funding that P2P were. I say were, as I am not sure how many more P2P AAA MMOs we are every going to see released. Only two P2P/B2P MMOs were released in 2013.

We are often told here about the shed loads of money F2P MMOs are making, Nari did another one of his threads about this just the other day. Does anyone here think F2P MMOs are getting better and better and that this money is being reinvested to achieve that? Most F2P companies are using the economic model of a fairground ride, for every punter who gets off, there is another one who will get on.

The likes of EQN may take over and say they are AAA F2P MMOs. But I would question that these upcoming F2P games really are built on the budget we saw put into SWTOR or GW2. As we have discussed before on these forums, more money does not equal a great MMO, but it sure helps!

  User Deleted
1/22/14 4:28:17 AM#33
Originally posted by thark
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by thark

2. You WILL never see a free to play game with the same amount budgets as for example..SWTOR and TSW ..There is simply to much risktaking in creating such a expensive game with the risk of loosing it all. Atleast Neverwinter sold pioneer packs at release, but still Neverwinter is far from a high budget MMO. 

 *snip* I'm just going to laugh at this statement; because budget is a measurement of quality. That is all.

And in this case It was all I ment aswell..But, also with high budgets comes great Talents  naturally , but If there has been great talents working on SWTOR ; i'd say, most likely :), and you say no because you do not like the game :) ..

You will see big budget F2Ps on the horizon.  Its still transitioning, but it is the new standard.  Wildstar and ESO are going for the cash grab and are also testing the P2P waters, but you will start to see more devs going F2P / Freemium from the start like EQN.

  thark

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/01/03
Posts: 1107

 
OP  1/22/14 10:27:24 AM#34
Originally posted by Scot
Originally posted by Ender4

You are confusing F2P with cash shop in a lot of this. Most of your negatives exist in current B2P games as well. You can play Path of Exile without spending a single penny, same with Hearthstone, same with League of Legends. A game like SWTOR or Rift give you so many restrictions it isn't really F2P long, they also don't count as F2P since they started B2P.

I don't for one minute believe F2P games can't have the same production costs either, that is just a stereotype. Both games rely on getting most of their money back post release and the F2P model has shown to be more profitable than the P2P model. Investors know this information as well.

Very good point, I often talk about the awful issues I think that F2P engenders, but many of them are found in any game with a cash shop. I see the detrimental impact of the cash shop being worse in F2P games though.

I don't take your point on production costs mind you. Although things may change in the future F2P MMOs are not being built with the same level of funding that P2P were. I say were, as I am not sure how many more P2P AAA MMOs we are every going to see released. Only two P2P/B2P MMOs were released in 2013.

We are often told here about the shed loads of money F2P MMOs are making, Nari did another one of his threads about this just the other day. Does anyone here think F2P MMOs are getting better and better and that this money is being reinvested to achieve that? Most F2P companies are using the economic model of a fairground ride, for every punter who gets off, there is another one who will get on.

The likes of EQN may take over and say they are AAA F2P MMOs. But I would question that these upcoming F2P games really are built on the budget we saw put into SWTOR or GW2. As we have discussed before on these forums, more money does not equal a great MMO, but it sure helps!

He and you are both having a Point that there is flaws in many diffrent games and so on, not going to argue against it, but it's most NOTABLE in F2P games .  also I agree that the cashshop is destroying ANY game that has one, most notably in form of constant reminders.

I agree with games like uppcomming EQN ..It wll shine trough in the game..somewhere they NEED to cut corners, besides they are already "selling" packs for their co-game EQ Landmark to budget this game.

Neverwinter is a F2P title that with no doubt has the highest F2P budget right now, and the whole game reeks of cheap game, and they still sold "pioneer" or "founders packs" to fund the cost making it. It's a very cheap game compared to AAA titles.

Planetside2 is another , looks alright and feels decent and all but this game has no lore or NPC's , as you can see such a game is then alot cheaper to make, they ALSO sold founders and starter packs to get some of it's funding back.

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3045

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

1/22/14 10:49:18 AM#35


Originally posted by DamonVile
He means you pay once a month or less depending on your sub. In a f2p you may do a transaction multiple times a day depending on what you're buying. Which means lots of I clicked the wrong thing, I didn't get my item this second, I don't want this blah blah blah.

Thanks for clarifying that. I had not thought about the volume of sales that way. And to be clear, I am NOT saying F2P games are "cheaper" to make. In my opinion, BOTH games cost a pretty penny to get out of the door.

However, DMKano's post has as many mistakes as the post that said F2P are cheaper to make. F2P assets are no less expensive to create than P2P ones. Software engineering coasts no more or less in a F2P game than P2P games.

Also, EVERY department in a F2P game is also present in a P2P game. The numbers may differ greatly, or they may not. Depends on the game, it's customer base, and level of customer service the company decides to provide, which I will admit, F2P lacks somewhat there.

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19467

1/22/14 11:13:06 AM#36
Originally posted by Scot

We are often told here about the shed loads of money F2P MMOs are making, Nari did another one of his threads about this just the other day. Does anyone here think F2P MMOs are getting better and better and that this money is being reinvested to achieve that? Most F2P companies are using the economic model of a fairground ride, for every punter who gets off, there is another one who will get on.

 

Does new content make a game better? Marvel Heroes & STO both have released new content recently. Isn't that making the games "better"?

And money being reinvested .... i don't really care if devs invest $1 or $100M .. as long as I have a fun game to play. May be the whales are so generous that the devs can reinvest only 10% and still have fun things for me.

  thark

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/01/03
Posts: 1107

 
OP  1/22/14 11:43:36 AM#37
Originally posted by evilastro
Originally posted by thark
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by thark

2. You WILL never see a free to play game with the same amount budgets as for example..SWTOR and TSW ..There is simply to much risktaking in creating such a expensive game with the risk of loosing it all. Atleast Neverwinter sold pioneer packs at release, but still Neverwinter is far from a high budget MMO. 

 *snip* I'm just going to laugh at this statement; because budget is a measurement of quality. That is all.

And in this case It was all I ment aswell..But, also with high budgets comes great Talents  naturally , but If there has been great talents working on SWTOR ; i'd say, most likely :), and you say no because you do not like the game :) ..

You will see big budget F2Ps on the horizon.  Its still transitioning, but it is the new standard.  Wildstar and ESO are going for the cash grab and are also testing the P2P waters, but you will start to see more devs going F2P / Freemium from the start like EQN.

No doubt about that, we will se "better" F2P games comming..But If you Think for a second that these developers will not also find  a way to get their investments secured from the getgo, then Think again..

As stated, EQN ..Will sell pioneer packs and early starter packs and VIP passes etc etc etc. and they have a Co developed game called EQ Landmark that will generate funds for this aswell.

As did Neverwinter and Planetside, they just can't spend 50 Milj dollars and give all their trust in a cashshop.

 

  Gaendric

Novice Member

Joined: 4/20/04
Posts: 279

1/22/14 2:32:30 PM#38

I agree there will be higher budget F2P games coming.

Hopefully they will shake off the (so far in many cases deserved) stigma that current  F2P games have and we can all go back to enjoying a game without worrying too much about which monetization model it uses.

 

The mind projection fallacy is the assumption that our subjective judgments (or lack thereof) reflect intrinsic qualities of objects or reality in general.

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5217

1/23/14 5:33:02 AM#39
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Scot

We are often told here about the shed loads of money F2P MMOs are making, Nari did another one of his threads about this just the other day. Does anyone here think F2P MMOs are getting better and better and that this money is being reinvested to achieve that? Most F2P companies are using the economic model of a fairground ride, for every punter who gets off, there is another one who will get on.

 

Does new content make a game better? Marvel Heroes & STO both have released new content recently. Isn't that making the games "better"?

And money being reinvested .... i don't really care if devs invest $1 or $100M .. as long as I have a fun game to play. May be the whales are so generous that the devs can reinvest only 10% and still have fun things for me.

Nari you are picking out two of the top F2P games out there, and as you so often do have picked one which released as a sub game, which means more quality.

I accept your point though, there are F2P games (MH not being a MMO) that get decent content updates. The question is how many of these are there? I am one of those who think players should stick with a MMO for more than two months and jump ship. But even I recognise that players need more than ten or so titles which are doing decent updates. And within that list we have to question what a decent update is.

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