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Elder Scrolls Online

Elder Scrolls Online 

General Discussion  » Massively votes TESO most likely to flop

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262 posts found
  Arthasm

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/26/09
Posts: 632

12/21/13 3:48:16 PM#61
Wow is dead. Period. Dying since 2006. Every year. Yeah. Teso will flop, p2p sux, but p2p game won award for best game of the year. What pot they smoked?
  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3735

12/21/13 3:55:34 PM#62
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by reeereee
I think this news is extremely encouraging for TESO.  Anyone who thinks FFXIV is the game of the year, that Neverwinter is the most underrated mmo, and that the subscription model is a mistake picking a game to fail is like a stamp of sure success.

I agree. I've never found a reason to spend any time at Massively. The only times I ever go there is when they post yet another amateurish article written by gossip columnist wannabes and it gets linked here by someone who somehow takes them seriously.

 

I mean, who can forget their "ESO wil have a sub AND a cash shop" crap? Some people here even still believe that.

 

Hmm, well I did believe this, and lots of links in a Google search support this, so I'd be interested in knowing why you believe otherwise?

 

Because all of those google links refer to the same German site article where Matt Firor said that things like name changes and other account services would cost extra $$. That was back in August.

 

After Massively and others started reporting that as Sub + cash shop (something which btw, was never reported that way here and in other mainstream game sites) Paul Sage in September clarified that it will not have a cash shop.

 

So guess which of those two is easier to find by googling? You're actually pointing to a great example of how the rumors generated by gossip sites - not just in gaming but in everything - become the widely accepted internet "truth."

 

Say what you will about mmorpg.com but they do have some integrity here and act like real journalists with their fact checking.

  azurrei

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/12/12
Posts: 57

12/21/13 3:56:16 PM#63
Originally posted by muppetpilot
 

Massively is pretty horrid overall, anyway.  The site is obviously paid to promote Guild Wars 2 and yet they continually deny that this is the case; 

I agree, although they have been a lot more negative (and honest) about GW2 as of late - basically ever since Elizabeth left.  However, if you think ANY of these sites are unbiased..lol.  All I have to say is Wildstar and MMORPG in the same sentence...

  reeereee

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/22/13
Posts: 686

12/21/13 3:57:21 PM#64
Originally posted by Siphaed
Originally posted by udon
Originally posted by DMKano

http://i.massively.joystiq.com/2013/12/19/massivelys-best-of-2013-awards/

Thoughts?

I hope it does OK, I know some great folks working at Zenimax.

 

If you read what they say it sounds like they think it's going to sell a lot of boxes and subs at least short term but it's long term viability is up in the air.  Well duh, if TESO doesn't innovate day 1 onward it is going to have issues holding onto subs.  They are going to have to fight every month to keep those subs by giving players something to sub for.

And I find it interesting they voted FFXIV game of the year and traditional sub models the biggest blunder of the year.   They do know it's a Sub game right?

 

As Bre explained in the comments section, Game of the Year has to be an MMORPG that launched in 2013 (that was their stipulation).  There were very short pickings between indie games,  Defiance,  FFXIV, and Neverwinter.   So, honestly it was the best of the worst.    

 

And the reason that traditional sub models is getting hot-listed for blunder is because of the plethora of non-sub, high-quality MMO's that have they have to compete with.     Games like GW2 having bi-weekly content updates show that a sub is not needed to do many updates compared to WoW's once-in-a-while patches every so many months for it's $15 monthly.     Their expansion of the year was one of those updates for GW2:  Super Adventure Box; that goes to show you something of the quality of it's content updates.

 

As for TESO, it will have issues.  So far it's a love it or hate it relationship with the press that's covered the game.  And it's become apparently clear that there's far more than 50% that are in the "hate it" category of that split.     Much of the hate is through people that are saying the animation/combat is nowhere near ready to launch and will need more than 4 months to fix;  it's clunky and troublesome for players to use compared other quality games.  Another issue, arguably the most important, is that it doesn't feel likea very well built, quality MMORPG.  Instead it feels more like an elder scrolls game with multiplayer slapped on haphazardly.

 

 

 

Wow, it's been a while since I've seen one of these, did a time traveler from 2012 arrive in this thread?  I'm honestly shocked that there is even one person left who still thinks gw2 is going kill the sub model.

  Tamanous

Elite Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 1662

12/21/13 4:06:34 PM#65
Originally posted by Arthasm
p2p sux, 

You will do yourself a huge favor by realizing what you say about p2p is your personal opinion only.

 

I am much more concerned with the quality of the game upon release. I am glad though that the developers don't have to worry at this time how to monetize every element of the game prior to launch. P2p tells me they want their content in game to be equally accessible to all. Launching as f2p only means those with the loosest wallets benefit first or most.

 

If the game ends up being a clunky mess it will have nothing to do with the payment model.

You stay sassy!

  keithian

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/20/06
Posts: 2945

12/21/13 4:23:23 PM#66
I personally am more excited about Occulus Rift then this game or any upcoming MMO. In addition, I've pulled back my expectation quite a bit over the last couple of months. Regardless, I think this game is going to do just fine and since we have still seen so little, who knows, maybe they will surprise us. I'm concerned with the release day in early April, but until I play in Open Beta I'm still looking forward to this game. They will have a huge number of box sales and then just like every other MMO now or in the future, will have a huge pull back in 1-6 months, and then remain profitable with a healthy player base and if it has a healthy player base and I end up liking it, thats all I care about. I really don't care how it does compared to other games, especially WOW.

There Is Always Hope!

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3735

12/21/13 4:27:31 PM#67
Originally posted by Tamanous
Originally posted by Arthasm
p2p sux, 

You will do yourself a huge favor by realizing what you say about p2p is your personal opinion only.

 

I am much more concerned with the quality of the game upon release. I am glad though that the developers don't have to worry at this time how to monetize every element of the game prior to launch. P2p tells me they want their content in game to be equally accessible to all. Launching as f2p only means those with the loosest wallets benefit first or most.

 

If the game ends up being a clunky mess it will have nothing to do with the payment model.

Exactly.

 

A lot of people here, and evidently the writers at Massively, are always confusing the issue of what determines a game's success or failure by evaluating it all based on corporate profit.

 

It's fine for them, the developers and their financial backers, to think of it in those terms, but wtf does it really matter to us beyond them just achieving a baseline financial viability that allows them to stay open and supporting the game?

 

Quality, success and failure to us is really just about how much fun we have or don't have and whether we want to keep playing it or not. All this other bean counting crap just confuses the issue.

  g0m0rrah

Novice Member

Joined: 1/23/13
Posts: 208

12/21/13 4:29:02 PM#68
Originally posted by DMKano

http://i.massively.joystiq.com/2013/12/19/massivelys-best-of-2013-awards/

Thoughts?

I hope it does OK, I know some great folks working at Zenimax.

 

 

I can't wrap my head around that article. Obviously the article is highly subjective as is all opinions but it seems that they love to contradict themselves. Biggest blunder is the sub model yet final fantasy is goty. Even with my lack of confidence in any article massively releases, I have to agree that ESO will be a mediocre release. I just do not see or have read anything about ESO that grabs me and says " oh I'm interested in that". I know everyone is tired of hearing about innovation but new ideas are needed in the mmo genre. We can get more of the same as freeware thus making non innovative games a hard sell.
  Rohn

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/02/08
Posts: 3739

12/21/13 4:35:44 PM#69
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by Tamanous
Originally posted by Arthasm
p2p sux, 

You will do yourself a huge favor by realizing what you say about p2p is your personal opinion only.

 

I am much more concerned with the quality of the game upon release. I am glad though that the developers don't have to worry at this time how to monetize every element of the game prior to launch. P2p tells me they want their content in game to be equally accessible to all. Launching as f2p only means those with the loosest wallets benefit first or most.

 

If the game ends up being a clunky mess it will have nothing to do with the payment model.

Exactly.

 

A lot of people here, and evidently the writers at Massively, are always confusing the issue of what determines a game's success or failure by evaluating it all based on corporate profit.

 

It's fine for them, the developers and their financial backers, to think of it in those terms, but wtf does it really matter to us beyond them just achieving a baseline financial viability that allows them to stay open and supporting the game?

 

Quality, success and failure to us is really just about how much fun we have or don't have and whether we want to keep playing it or not. All this other bean counting crap just confuses the issue.

 

I agree with you completely.

Is the game fun or not?  That's the only question.

The payment model is largely irrelevant, and is more the grist of forum warfare.

Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18807

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

12/21/13 4:41:22 PM#70
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by reeereee
I think this news is extremely encouraging for TESO.  Anyone who thinks FFXIV is the game of the year, that Neverwinter is the most underrated mmo, and that the subscription model is a mistake picking a game to fail is like a stamp of sure success.

I agree. I've never found a reason to spend any time at Massively. The only times I ever go there is when they post yet another amateurish article written by gossip columnist wannabes and it gets linked here by someone who somehow takes them seriously.

 

I mean, who can forget their "ESO wil have a sub AND a cash shop" crap? Some people here even still believe that.

 

Hmm, well I did believe this, and lots of links in a Google search support this, so I'd be interested in knowing why you believe otherwise?

 

Because all of those google links refer to the same German site article where Matt Firor said that things like name changes and other account services would cost extra $$. That was back in August.

 

After Massively and others started reporting that as Sub + cash shop (something which btw, was never reported that way here and in other mainstream game sites) Paul Sage in September clarified that it will not have a cash shop.

 

So guess which of those two is easier to find by googling? You're actually pointing to a great example of how the rumors generated by gossip sites - not just in gaming but in everything - become the widely accepted internet "truth."

 

Say what you will about mmorpg.com but they do have some integrity here and act like real journalists with their fact checking.

OK, just listened to Episode 81, heard Paul talk about the "store." as it were.  Not a true cash shop apparently, but it will probably sell services only, such as name changes and the like.

Of course, someone pointed out, services is a bit of a broad term, and if they extend to items such as bank space or inventory but regardless it doesn't sound like we'll see any sort of cash shop, at least at launch.

 

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  g0m0rrah

Novice Member

Joined: 1/23/13
Posts: 208

12/21/13 4:43:18 PM#71
Originally posted by Rohn
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by Tamanous
Originally posted by Arthasm
p2p sux, 

You will do yourself a huge favor by realizing what you say about p2p is your personal opinion only.

 

I am much more concerned with the quality of the game upon release. I am glad though that the developers don't have to worry at this time how to monetize every element of the game prior to launch. P2p tells me they want their content in game to be equally accessible to all. Launching as f2p only means those with the loosest wallets benefit first or most.

 

If the game ends up being a clunky mess it will have nothing to do with the payment model.

Exactly.

 

A lot of people here, and evidently the writers at Massively, are always confusing the issue of what determines a game's success or failure by evaluating it all based on corporate profit.

 

It's fine for them, the developers and their financial backers, to think of it in those terms, but wtf does it really matter to us beyond them just achieving a baseline financial viability that allows them to stay open and supporting the game?

 

Quality, success and failure to us is really just about how much fun we have or don't have and whether we want to keep playing it or not. All this other bean counting crap just confuses the issue.

 

I agree with you completely.

Is the game fun or not?  That's the only question.

The payment model is largely irrelevant, and is more the grist of forum warfare.

 

The payment model is as relevant as the entertainment. Money is always a barrier to play. I am sure many people enjoyed rock band but it did have a decent barrier to entry being instrument cost. Free to play games will always have the lowest barrier to play and thus will have a huge advantage at the start. Then it comes down to enjoyment. I am sure if porsche released a new 911 gt and it was free to own, I'd bet it would be the most popular car on the planet, but according to you the payment model has nothing to do with it.
  jdlamson75

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 12/27/08
Posts: 888

There's some lovely filth down here.

12/21/13 4:54:32 PM#72

And once again, nothing here affects me one way or the way other.  I'm going to buy the game.  I'll probably preorder.

 

I've played the beta.  I love ES games.  I love mmos.  I don't care about spending %15 a month - A FUCKING MONTH - to keep playing a game.

  DMKano

Elite Member

Joined: 6/17/11
Posts: 4680

 
OP  12/21/13 4:55:57 PM#73
Originally posted by g0m0rrah
Originally posted by Rohn
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by Tamanous
Originally posted by Arthasm
p2p sux, 

You will do yourself a huge favor by realizing what you say about p2p is your personal opinion only.

 

I am much more concerned with the quality of the game upon release. I am glad though that the developers don't have to worry at this time how to monetize every element of the game prior to launch. P2p tells me they want their content in game to be equally accessible to all. Launching as f2p only means those with the loosest wallets benefit first or most.

 

If the game ends up being a clunky mess it will have nothing to do with the payment model.

Exactly.

 

A lot of people here, and evidently the writers at Massively, are always confusing the issue of what determines a game's success or failure by evaluating it all based on corporate profit.

 

It's fine for them, the developers and their financial backers, to think of it in those terms, but wtf does it really matter to us beyond them just achieving a baseline financial viability that allows them to stay open and supporting the game?

 

Quality, success and failure to us is really just about how much fun we have or don't have and whether we want to keep playing it or not. All this other bean counting crap just confuses the issue.

 

I agree with you completely.

Is the game fun or not?  That's the only question.

The payment model is largely irrelevant, and is more the grist of forum warfare.

 

The payment model is as relevant as the entertainment. Money is always a barrier to play. I am sure many people enjoyed rock band but it did have a decent barrier to entry being instrument cost. Free to play games will always have the lowest barrier to play and thus will have a huge advantage at the start. Then it comes down to enjoyment. I am sure if porsche released a new 911 gt and it was free to own, I'd bet it would be the most popular car on the planet, but according to you the payment model has nothing to do with it.

In addition pay model makes a huge difference in returning players - if its F2P, easy to always come back and check out the new patch/update.

P2P - yeah a lot less likely to pay $15 just to see if I like the new patch, which after 2 hours I might hate.

This is why its SO hard for sub games to regain playerbase after they start to bleed subs (I know that Eve and WoW have done it, but they are the only 2)

 

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3735

12/21/13 4:55:58 PM#74
Originally posted by g0m0rrah
Originally posted by Rohn
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by Tamanous
Originally posted by Arthasm
p2p sux, 

You will do yourself a huge favor by realizing what you say about p2p is your personal opinion only.

 

I am much more concerned with the quality of the game upon release. I am glad though that the developers don't have to worry at this time how to monetize every element of the game prior to launch. P2p tells me they want their content in game to be equally accessible to all. Launching as f2p only means those with the loosest wallets benefit first or most.

 

If the game ends up being a clunky mess it will have nothing to do with the payment model.

Exactly.

 

A lot of people here, and evidently the writers at Massively, are always confusing the issue of what determines a game's success or failure by evaluating it all based on corporate profit.

 

It's fine for them, the developers and their financial backers, to think of it in those terms, but wtf does it really matter to us beyond them just achieving a baseline financial viability that allows them to stay open and supporting the game?

 

Quality, success and failure to us is really just about how much fun we have or don't have and whether we want to keep playing it or not. All this other bean counting crap just confuses the issue.

 

I agree with you completely.

Is the game fun or not?  That's the only question.

The payment model is largely irrelevant, and is more the grist of forum warfare.

 

The payment model is as relevant as the entertainment. Money is always a barrier to play. I am sure many people enjoyed rock band but it did have a decent barrier to entry being instrument cost. Free to play games will always have the lowest barrier to play and thus will have a huge advantage at the start. Then it comes down to enjoyment. I am sure if porsche released a new 911 gt and it was free to own, I'd bet it would be the most popular car on the planet, but according to you the payment model has nothing to do with it.

So... according to your logic, D&D Online is played by more people than WOW?

 

F2P or P2P are considerations only insofar as being one of the factors that enables you to consume or not depending on your own personal financial circumstance.

 

Beyond that, it's irrelevant. What actually determines where I will spend my most valuable resource, time, has nothing to do with the payment model.

 

PS. I assume you've never driven a Porsche - I have. It's one of the most uncomfortable rides imaginable. I'd much rather drive a Lexus ISF any day of the week... status symbol be damned 

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15347

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

12/21/13 4:59:12 PM#75
Can't say I'm surprised, Massively is known to essentially tow the popular crowd line, didn't they change one of their reviews a few years ago; simply to please those who didn't agree with that score, or was that TTH? Either way, I don't expect any MMO to keep their initial numbers, doesn't matter what game we're talking about. I'll play it, I'll only stay if I like the PVP enough at endgame.  Everything else is of no consequence to me.

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  Jetrpg

Novice Member

Joined: 4/22/06
Posts: 2392

12/21/13 4:59:17 PM#76
i agree, its combat is bad. unattractive.

"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine

  Rohn

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/02/08
Posts: 3739

12/21/13 5:04:34 PM#77
Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by g0m0rrah
Originally posted by Rohn
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by Tamanous
Originally posted by Arthasm
p2p sux, 

You will do yourself a huge favor by realizing what you say about p2p is your personal opinion only.

 

I am much more concerned with the quality of the game upon release. I am glad though that the developers don't have to worry at this time how to monetize every element of the game prior to launch. P2p tells me they want their content in game to be equally accessible to all. Launching as f2p only means those with the loosest wallets benefit first or most.

 

If the game ends up being a clunky mess it will have nothing to do with the payment model.

Exactly.

 

A lot of people here, and evidently the writers at Massively, are always confusing the issue of what determines a game's success or failure by evaluating it all based on corporate profit.

 

It's fine for them, the developers and their financial backers, to think of it in those terms, but wtf does it really matter to us beyond them just achieving a baseline financial viability that allows them to stay open and supporting the game?

 

Quality, success and failure to us is really just about how much fun we have or don't have and whether we want to keep playing it or not. All this other bean counting crap just confuses the issue.

 

I agree with you completely.

Is the game fun or not?  That's the only question.

The payment model is largely irrelevant, and is more the grist of forum warfare.

 

The payment model is as relevant as the entertainment. Money is always a barrier to play. I am sure many people enjoyed rock band but it did have a decent barrier to entry being instrument cost. Free to play games will always have the lowest barrier to play and thus will have a huge advantage at the start. Then it comes down to enjoyment. I am sure if porsche released a new 911 gt and it was free to own, I'd bet it would be the most popular car on the planet, but according to you the payment model has nothing to do with it.

In addition pay model makes a huge difference in returning players - if its F2P, easy to always come back and check out the new patch/update.

P2P - yeah a lot less likely to pay $15 just to see if I like the new patch, which after 2 hours I might hate.

This is why its SO hard for sub games to regain playerbase after they start to bleed subs (I know that Eve and WoW have done it, but they are the only 2)

 

 

Again, you're not talking about the fun of the game, you're talking about gamer's habits, and corporate bottom lines.

In the same article, Massively listed sub-based games as the Biggest Blunder, yet their Game of the Year is a sub-based game.

Their hypocrisy really undercuts the credibility of the article.  Personally, I'd be embarrassed to use it as a source.

Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.

  PerfArt

Novice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 863

12/21/13 5:04:46 PM#78
An easy, popular choice given the amount of hype and conflicting opinions on what kind of game it "should" be. Not a lot of other choices, given that most other games coming out are either too small to be truly "flop-worthy" or are Wildstar, which is sort of an evolution on the safest formula for success (WoW.)

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt

  DMKano

Elite Member

Joined: 6/17/11
Posts: 4680

 
OP  12/21/13 5:15:31 PM#79
Originally posted by Rohn
Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by g0m0rrah
Originally posted by Rohn
Originally posted by Iselin
Originally posted by Tamanous
Originally posted by Arthasm
p2p sux, 

You will do yourself a huge favor by realizing what you say about p2p is your personal opinion only.

 

I am much more concerned with the quality of the game upon release. I am glad though that the developers don't have to worry at this time how to monetize every element of the game prior to launch. P2p tells me they want their content in game to be equally accessible to all. Launching as f2p only means those with the loosest wallets benefit first or most.

 

If the game ends up being a clunky mess it will have nothing to do with the payment model.

Exactly.

 

A lot of people here, and evidently the writers at Massively, are always confusing the issue of what determines a game's success or failure by evaluating it all based on corporate profit.

 

It's fine for them, the developers and their financial backers, to think of it in those terms, but wtf does it really matter to us beyond them just achieving a baseline financial viability that allows them to stay open and supporting the game?

 

Quality, success and failure to us is really just about how much fun we have or don't have and whether we want to keep playing it or not. All this other bean counting crap just confuses the issue.

 

I agree with you completely.

Is the game fun or not?  That's the only question.

The payment model is largely irrelevant, and is more the grist of forum warfare.

 

The payment model is as relevant as the entertainment. Money is always a barrier to play. I am sure many people enjoyed rock band but it did have a decent barrier to entry being instrument cost. Free to play games will always have the lowest barrier to play and thus will have a huge advantage at the start. Then it comes down to enjoyment. I am sure if porsche released a new 911 gt and it was free to own, I'd bet it would be the most popular car on the planet, but according to you the payment model has nothing to do with it.

In addition pay model makes a huge difference in returning players - if its F2P, easy to always come back and check out the new patch/update.

P2P - yeah a lot less likely to pay $15 just to see if I like the new patch, which after 2 hours I might hate.

This is why its SO hard for sub games to regain playerbase after they start to bleed subs (I know that Eve and WoW have done it, but they are the only 2)

 

 

Again, you're not talking about the fun of the game, you're talking about gamer's habits, and corporate bottom lines.

In the same article, Massively listed sub-based games as the Biggest Blunder, yet their Game of the Year is a sub-based game.

Their hypocrisy really undercuts the credibility of the article.  Personally, I'd be embarrassed to use it as a source.

It is not hypocrisy - game quality and payment model are two separate things.

They obviously see subs as a blunder, but they like FFXIV as a *game*. Are they not allowed to like a game even if they hate the payment model?

 

 

  reeereee

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/22/13
Posts: 686

12/21/13 5:18:33 PM#80
Originally posted by PerfArt
An easy, popular choice given the amount of hype and conflicting opinions on what kind of game it "should" be. Not a lot of other choices, given that most other games coming out are either too small to be truly "flop-worthy" or are Wildstar, which is sort of an evolution on the safest formula for success (WoW.)

Considering that every attempt to copy/recreate that "safest formula" has crashed hard, I would say Wildstar is the safest bet to flop.

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