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General Discussion  » Without 15-20 active skills/spells in the PC version, Wildstar will fail in the long run

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226 posts found
  kilun

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/25/07
Posts: 676

12/18/13 12:35:36 PM#41
Originally posted by reckoner2
Originally posted by azzamasin

The days of multi-hotbar combat is dead my friend. 

 

No, it isn't dead, most mmorpg players prefer it and that is partially why Wow is still number 1. What is going to happen is, developers will get the hint after the next few mmorpgs fail to generate the revenue they need. There will be some minor success but I predict in the end they will all be forced to free-to-play and die a slow death. 

Sure, there will be some cleanup to the number of abilities in Wow in future mmorpgs, but the current trend of a super low number of abilities will fail.

So you literally just said the success of WOW has to do with the amount of skills and hotbars?  

  Tamanous

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 1629

12/18/13 12:38:43 PM#42
Originally posted by Roguewiz

Even IF they gave us 15-20 skills to use at anytime, let's get something straight.

1.  Some skills will be more powerful than others, and thus making the other skills useless.

2.  Some skills will be situationally useless

3.  Some skills will share cooldowns with other similar skills.

Don't even get me started on balance issues.

Ultimately, the player will use the best skills available, and thus other skills will not be used or taken.

Ask any player from popular mmos using many hotkeys how many they use on average in combat in various situations. Most will say they use nearly all their abilities. Smart design will drive this.

 

I personally used nearly every power (within spec) in most of these types of mmos. My warlock in Wow had to use most of his powers or die. My Monk as well. In Swtor my sniper/slingers (I played both) always used most of their powers in pvp and group play.

 

Balance issues is a myth as well. I have not seen one skill based game that has not become anything more than cookie cutter builds where the majority of free range skills are ignored. Balancing skills against each other across the board is a balancing nightmare. Classes have ALWAYS been easier to balance which is why most of the games went with classes to begin with. Reticle games always become simplistic as you mostly just point and click. This often limits combo options and also becomes little more than click fests. It is real time combat or "twitch" which is based more on player skill then character skill. If you do not know that difference then you do not know what an rpg is versus a FPS.

 

Developers make a conscience choice when choosing such mechanics. They choose then for a reason and for each choice there are drawbacks. Each choice changes fundamental development directions. A different game is made because of it therefore other games not making the same choices will be entirely different.

 

I would love to know the reason for limiting a pc only mmo to 7 skills. Because they thing players are stupid? Because the millions and millions of players playing with many hotkeys already complained for 15 years? No. The ONLY reason why some mmos are coming out with 7-8 hotkeys is for console porting and for arcade style action that puts demands on movement more than strategic planning. This pushes those mmos into different genres and therefore different audiences. Do not even think for a second it is because players have been demanding this for years.

You stay sassy!

  MrMelGibson

Elite Member

Joined: 12/13/13
Posts: 249

12/18/13 12:46:01 PM#43
Originally posted by coretex666
Originally posted by azzamasin

The days of multi-hotbar combat is dead my friend. 

 

Anyone who thinks that having access to so many abilities knows nothing about how to balance and build a successful and fun game.  Especially considering that the on average only a handful of those skills get used a majority of time.  Not only that anyone who enjoys playing whack-a-mole with their hotbars is deluding themselves in thinking it is any more skillful.

Any active or former WoW player would like to comment on this?

I find it rather amusing.

You can find it amusing all you want.  But, this is fact.  I went back to WoW recently just to see what the game is like now (I quit during Wotlk).  I have 3 90s.  None of them ever use more then 8-12 (12 being pretty situational and rare) abilities in end game.  You are part of the minority of mmo gamers who can't adapt to the changing wave of new mmos.  It's very obvious.  Thing is, in a tab target game like WoW.  You can get away with more abilities because you are not dodging and moving as much as an action mmo.   But, you still rarely use more then 8 abilities.   Unless you count 60 min buffs part of your rotation lol.

  Tamanous

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 1629

12/18/13 12:46:55 PM#44
Originally posted by kilun
Originally posted by reckoner2
Originally posted by azzamasin

The days of multi-hotbar combat is dead my friend. 

 

No, it isn't dead, most mmorpg players prefer it and that is partially why Wow is still number 1. What is going to happen is, developers will get the hint after the next few mmorpgs fail to generate the revenue they need. There will be some minor success but I predict in the end they will all be forced to free-to-play and die a slow death. 

Sure, there will be some cleanup to the number of abilities in Wow in future mmorpgs, but the current trend of a super low number of abilities will fail.

So you literally just said the success of WOW has to do with the amount of skills and hotbars?  

It is a factor to the longevity of the game. It is the fundamental mechanic for how your toon interacts in game. Nearly all content is based upon combat. You suggest that an 8 year old game with millions of players and many other mmos adding to many millions more over 15 years had nothing to do with it's combat mechanics?

 

Do you honestly think mmo players who typically dedicate most of their play time within immersive worlds in an rpg game would have enjoyed their games more if say a Mage from Wow only had 7 buttons to use for 8+ years?

You stay sassy!

  Boreil

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/13/06
Posts: 450

12/18/13 12:48:06 PM#45
Originally posted by reckoner2
Originally posted by azzamasin

The days of multi-hotbar combat is dead my friend. 

 

No, it isn't dead, most mmorpg players prefer it and that is partially why Wow is still number 1. What is going to happen is, developers will get the hint after the next few mmorpgs fail to generate the revenue they need. There will be some minor success but I predict in the end they will all be forced to free-to-play and die a slow death. 

Sure, there will be some cleanup to the number of abilities in Wow in future mmorpgs, but the current trend of a super low number of abilities will fail.

Nope the days of multiple hotbars is long dead and not many mmo players want it at all, most want single bar/ limited skill's at the ready.   These type of multiple hit bar whack a mole combat mmo's  have been failing for years and years. 

  MrMelGibson

Elite Member

Joined: 12/13/13
Posts: 249

12/18/13 12:48:36 PM#46
Originally posted by Tamanous
Originally posted by azzamasin

The days of multi-hotbar combat is dead my friend. 

 

Anyone who thinks that having access to so many abilities knows nothing about how to balance and build a successful and fun game.  Especially considering that the on average only a handful of those skills get used a majority of time.  Not only that anyone who enjoys playing whack-a-mole with their hotbars is deluding themselves in thinking it is any more skillful.

Utterly and completely false and based upon assumptions.

 

Many mmos based on pc will have many hotkeys from now and into the future. It depends on what sort of game they are trying to make. CU will have many hotkeys because it is trying to attract old school mmo players and dedicate it's design for pc gaming. It is an important selling point for many of the contributors and for pc gamers in general.

 

Do not think that pc and console markets are so easily bridged. Genre will drive indie development as they must choose their audience carefully. Games will always offer choices between combat systems depending on what they are designed for and this will always differ between pc and consoles. You cannot have certain levels of combat complexity within various genres by restriction hotkeys simply because you want portability to console.

So you named 1 mmo that isn't even guaranteed to launch.  Anymore?  Nope, thought so.  ESO, Wildstar, EQN, Black Desert just to name a few are using limited action bars.   Guess its just a fad.  Weird.

  Lukooone

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/07/10
Posts: 93

Violent videogames generate violence in the same proportion as Tetris instruct new bricklayers

12/18/13 12:49:00 PM#47

Why that many people in this thread is saying they hate to have screen full of skills when since 10 years old WoW gives you the possibility to bind keys and hide hotbars leaving 1 or 2 hotbars  for important CDs?

 

All mouseclickers in MMORPG.COM?

I guess many of you just never learned to play WoW...

Played :UO,EQ,DaoC,Lineage2,SWG,WWIIOL,EQ2,EvE,WoW,AoC,DF,RIFT,GA,TSW,Tera...
Best imo : UO

  MrMelGibson

Elite Member

Joined: 12/13/13
Posts: 249

12/18/13 12:51:05 PM#48
Originally posted by reckoner2
Originally posted by azzamasin

The days of multi-hotbar combat is dead my friend. 

 

No, it isn't dead, most mmorpg players prefer it and that is partially why Wow is still number 1. What is going to happen is, developers will get the hint after the next few mmorpgs fail to generate the revenue they need. There will be some minor success but I predict in the end they will all be forced to free-to-play and die a slow death. 

Sure, there will be some cleanup to the number of abilities in Wow in future mmorpgs, but the current trend of a super low number of abilities will fail.

Just judging by this thread alone.  I would say you are the minority and not the majority as you and the other old man mmo gamer in this thread can't seem to grasp.  

  killion81

Elite Member

Joined: 8/31/06
Posts: 888

12/18/13 12:53:36 PM#49
Originally posted by Tamanous
Originally posted by kilun
Originally posted by reckoner2
Originally posted by azzamasin

The days of multi-hotbar combat is dead my friend. 

 

No, it isn't dead, most mmorpg players prefer it and that is partially why Wow is still number 1. What is going to happen is, developers will get the hint after the next few mmorpgs fail to generate the revenue they need. There will be some minor success but I predict in the end they will all be forced to free-to-play and die a slow death. 

Sure, there will be some cleanup to the number of abilities in Wow in future mmorpgs, but the current trend of a super low number of abilities will fail.

So you literally just said the success of WOW has to do with the amount of skills and hotbars?  

It is a factor to the longevity of the game. It is the fundamental mechanic for how your toon interacts in game. Nearly all content is based upon combat. You suggest that an 8 year old game with millions of players and many other mmos adding to many millions more over 15 years had nothing to do with it's combat mechanics?

 

Do you honestly think mmo players who typically dedicate most of their play time within immersive worlds in an rpg game would have enjoyed their games more if say a Mage from Wow only had 7 buttons to use for 8+ years?

 

WoW's skill sets compliment the tab target nature of combat pretty well.  You don't have to worry about things like aiming, so you can put all your efforts into skill rotations and positioning.  When the combat is fundamentally changed with things like active dodge and aiming, the number of buttons probably starts to feel pretty overwhelming.  I haven't played Wildstar though, so I can't say for certain.

 

I can say that based on the videos I have seen so far, I do not believe comparing WoW combat to Wildstar combat is a true "apples to apples" comparison.

  pappacube

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/08/10
Posts: 80

12/18/13 12:56:47 PM#50
This game doesn't seem to really hit the mark for a new MMO for 2014.  Hardly worth the effort of my posting this......
  User Deleted
12/18/13 1:00:52 PM#51
Originally posted by fantasyfreak112
Agree with OP. Part of the reason GW2 got boring so fast was the lack of usable abilities made the gameplay dry up faster then Joan Rivers. No idea why companies think this is a good feature to copy. Sick of every other new game having a cheesy dodge roll too. It isn't even used to dodge, it's just a cheesy 1 second immunity whether you roll right into the attack or not.

 

GW2 comes to my mind as well, its the main reason I don't play it. I tried and tried but cant get past the gimped feeling I have with such limitations on my skills, and swapping weapons doesnt help either, I just found it to be annoying rather than adding to the fun. I feel like people have to much time to think about how to counter my moves rather than making split second decisions like one would really need to do in combat.
  Xssiv

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/18/10
Posts: 306

12/18/13 1:00:59 PM#52
I'd much rather have less active abilities with the option to swap abilities out to accommodate various play styles / roles as opposed to just using the same 15-20 abilities day in and day out. 
  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10376

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

12/18/13 1:04:19 PM#53


Originally posted by MrMelGibson

Originally posted by reckoner2

Originally posted by azzamasin The days of multi-hotbar combat is dead my friend.   
No, it isn't dead, most mmorpg players prefer it and that is partially why Wow is still number 1. What is going to happen is, developers will get the hint after the next few mmorpgs fail to generate the revenue they need. There will be some minor success but I predict in the end they will all be forced to free-to-play and die a slow death.  Sure, there will be some cleanup to the number of abilities in Wow in future mmorpgs, but the current trend of a super low number of abilities will fail.
Just judging by this thread alone.  I would say you are the minority and not the majority as you and the other old man mmo gamer in this thread can't seem to grasp.  



Er, there are more people playing WoW alone than pretty much all the other MMORPGs put together, and some of those have tab target, skill bar based combat. If some "new" style of combat is taking over the market, it's not doing it very quickly.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Rattenmann

Elite Member

Joined: 12/08/05
Posts: 310

12/18/13 1:05:10 PM#54
Originally posted by Mad+Dog
Im old, I only want 5 abilities max. 4 for each finger and 1 for my thumb :)

I am old as well and want 15+ Skills to not get bored while playing with comic grafics and children.

MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.

Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?

  MrMelGibson

Elite Member

Joined: 12/13/13
Posts: 249

12/18/13 1:05:29 PM#55
Originally posted by Xssiv
I'd much rather have less active abilities with the option to swap abilities out to accommodate various play styles / roles as opposed to just using the same 15-20 abilities day in and day out. 

I completely agree with you.  But, lets be honest.  You wouldn't even be using the 15-20 abilities.  To maximize whatever role you are filling, you would use the most optimal rotation which would most likely use 8-10 abilities at most.  Or in games like WoW Rift.  You can use 2 macros for all those abilities.

  Ujirik

Novice Member

Joined: 3/27/07
Posts: 457

12/18/13 1:07:16 PM#56
It's really inconvenient to have more than 10 active abilities to juggle around.  They just clutter the screen and are completely unnecessary.  I'd rather have it more streamlined and less convoluted. 

  Tamanous

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 1629

12/18/13 1:09:07 PM#57
Originally posted by Boreil
Originally posted by reckoner2
Originally posted by azzamasin

The days of multi-hotbar combat is dead my friend. 

 

No, it isn't dead, most mmorpg players prefer it and that is partially why Wow is still number 1. What is going to happen is, developers will get the hint after the next few mmorpgs fail to generate the revenue they need. There will be some minor success but I predict in the end they will all be forced to free-to-play and die a slow death. 

Sure, there will be some cleanup to the number of abilities in Wow in future mmorpgs, but the current trend of a super low number of abilities will fail.

Nope the days of multiple hotbars is long dead and not many mmo players want it at all, most want single bar/ limited skill's at the ready.   These type of multiple hit bar whack a mole combat mmo's  have been failing for years and years. 

This is entirely genre dependent. You assume far far too much. I can only assume you are trolling to suggest a singular factor like this is the driving force behind why the mmo market has stagnated. Considering all the other factors at play with why many mmos are failing you suggest that hotbars are the reason?

 

Seriously?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Seriously?

You stay sassy!

  Kyelthis

Novice Member

Joined: 5/06/10
Posts: 285

12/18/13 1:11:15 PM#58
Having 30+ skills on hotbars doesn't mean you'll be using all 30 separately. WoW, Rift, ect have had macro support and is widely used by players who want the most out of their toon. In WoW, my Rogue had roughly 12 macros along with a few single-use hotkeys, my Druid had a about 10 macros with a few single-use skills. Saying that Wildstar will fail in the long run because it only allows 10 skills at any time because it doesn't allow 15 makes really no sense to me, just my opnion. It's going to be the content itself that dictates how well the game is recieved and how long the game will stay healthy.
  reckoner2

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/19/08
Posts: 27

 
OP  12/18/13 1:24:26 PM#59
Originally posted by Tamanous
Originally posted by Boreil
Originally posted by reckoner2
Originally posted by azzamasin

The days of multi-hotbar combat is dead my friend. 

 

No, it isn't dead, most mmorpg players prefer it and that is partially why Wow is still number 1. What is going to happen is, developers will get the hint after the next few mmorpgs fail to generate the revenue they need. There will be some minor success but I predict in the end they will all be forced to free-to-play and die a slow death. 

Sure, there will be some cleanup to the number of abilities in Wow in future mmorpgs, but the current trend of a super low number of abilities will fail.

Nope the days of multiple hotbars is long dead and not many mmo players want it at all, most want single bar/ limited skill's at the ready.   These type of multiple hit bar whack a mole combat mmo's  have been failing for years and years. 

This is entirely genre dependent. You assume far far too much. I can only assume you are trolling to suggest a singular factor like this is the driving force behind why the mmo market has stagnated. Considering all the other factors at play with why many mmos are failing you suggest that hotbars are the reason?

 Seriously?

 Seriously?

Trolling? And you are saying I said it was the "singular" reason? If you read my post I said number of skills is "partially why Wow is still number1". If you can't read the very post you are quoting properly you shouldn't be hitting the reply button.

  MMO-Veteran

Novice Member

Joined: 10/04/13
Posts: 47

12/18/13 1:27:39 PM#60
Yes because people such as yourself doesn't then macro those 15-20 buttons in 2-5 anyways.
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