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WildStar

WildStar 

General Discussion  » Without 15-20 active skills/spells in the PC version, Wildstar will fail in the long run

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226 posts found
  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12113

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

12/18/13 12:02:24 PM#21

"Without 15-20 active skills/spells in the PC version, Wildstar will fail in the long run"

A classic example of the baggage that MMO gamers bring to the genre.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fovoroth

  coretex666

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/03/12
Posts: 1816

"I shall take your position into consideration"

12/18/13 12:03:07 PM#22

I am convinced that the large number of skills, besides other things, contributed to the success and longevity of WoW significantly.

For me personally, the combat with more skills is much more fun and interesting as it provides for many options / possibilities at any given time or situation. In games with only several skills, you have almost no choice and also you can pretty much expect what the other person will do which makes it tedious sooner or later, for me.

In games which are not heavily combat oriented, it is fine. I can play an MMORPG with terrible combat if the game is not completely based around it and has more interesting aspects to offer.

I would not go as far as saying that Wildstar would fail in the long run because of fewer active skills as it is impossible to objectively measure how much the number of skills influences the quality of combat. To express my subjective opinion, I would, most likely, enjoy Wildstar more with higher number of active skills similar to WoW.

 

Currently playing: L2 Chronicle 4

  Tamanous

Elite Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 1696

12/18/13 12:05:18 PM#23

I personally have yet to see an mmo I enjoyed using "console friendly" hotkey bars.

 

It is a primary reason I do not enjoy those mmos. It is a major consideration when choosing an mmo. Dumbing down mmos to allow console conversion does not and will not sit well with many pc gamers.

 

The issue is so important to me that I cannot play TSW even though I absolutely love many elements to the game. Having so few powers to use in today's mmo that are extremely combat heavy makes a game so boring to me that I now see it as a major turn off.

 

I am sure many other pc gamers feel the same way. A console game is only played for a short duration by most players before moving on to another. An mmo must grab your attention for years and 7-8 buttons if a game killer for many.

You stay sassy!

  reckoner2

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/19/08
Posts: 27

 
OP  12/18/13 12:08:04 PM#24
Originally posted by evilastro
Originally posted by reckoner2

when I play a mmorpg for several months as a DPS character, I would like to have at least 4-5 single target DPS, 4-5 aoe abilities, and at least a few utility and CC abilities. I don't mind having to change ouit abilities out of combat, but I want more diversity in combat. So the number of skills doesn't need to be 40+ but certainly higher than 10 or lower.

 

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but all those games you play with all those hotbars can be played with 1-3 macros.  There is nothing skilful or thought provoking about a simple damage rotation.  Removing macros doesn't make it harder either as you'll just lay them out across your hotbar and press them in order and as they refresh.  Unless you consider playing whack-a-mole a skill based game.  

 

1) Bad news? I am well aware of macroing and also aware of the fact I don't use macros. Completely irrelevent whether the game is more fun to me due to an increase in abilities, or fun to most. There are plenty of non-min maxers who don't use macros and play mmorpgs. 

2) Damage rotations require more skill if you have to diversify your attack with position, timing etc playing a role. It all depends on how they abilities are implemented, you seem to imply that you can't have a number of attacks without them being a part of a boring rotation. Using your logic, we should all stick with auto-attacks only for combat since everything else can be macroe'd. Or better yet, not play at all because combat macros can level the character for you.

 

 

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2718

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

12/18/13 12:11:30 PM#25

The days of multi-hotbar combat is dead my friend. 

 

Anyone who thinks that having access to so many abilities knows nothing about how to balance and build a successful and fun game.  Especially considering that the on average only a handful of those skills get used a majority of time.  Not only that anyone who enjoys playing whack-a-mole with their hotbars is deluding themselves in thinking it is any more skillful.

 

15-20 skills is 7-12 skills too many.  It is extremely hard for the average gamer to commit to muscle memory more then 8 skills.  This is a fact, so what ends up happening is that the majority of those who plays these multi-hotbar games will click the majority of those keys which makes them constantly look at their hotbar instead of their surroundings.  Face it how many times do you see people standing where they aren't supposed to?  I guarantee you it's because those people are watching their hotbars instead of their surroundings and fail to recognize when they are standing in fire or other ill-effects.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  JemAs666

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/28/09
Posts: 121

12/18/13 12:11:51 PM#26
If mobs lived longer than ~10 seconds in modern MMOs, having more skills might make sense.  In the current MMO this is not the case and people only use 1 to 5 skills.  Lets face it, most people don't pay attention enough these days to play a game that involves 15-20 skill rotations.  They are too involved with watching TV, sitting on the toilet, or eating to waste time paying attention to more than mashing 1-5 on their keyboard.  In the EQ days the average player didn't have resources to have 9 monitors with 5 games going on at the same time, watching youtube, hulu, netflix, porn, and  25 different websites opened all at the same time.
  BadOrb

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/11/13
Posts: 739

12/18/13 12:15:52 PM#27
Originally posted by Tamanous

I personally have yet to see an mmo I enjoyed using "console friendly" hotkey bars.

 

It is a primary reason I do not enjoy those mmos. It is a major consideration when choosing an mmo. Dumbing down mmos to allow console conversion does not and will not sit well with many pc gamers.

 

The issue is so important to me that I cannot play TSW even though I absolutely love many elements to the game. Having so few powers to use in today's mmo that are extremely combat heavy makes a game so boring to me that I now see it as a major turn off.

 

I am sure many other pc gamers feel the same way. A console game is only played for a short duration by most players before moving on to another. An mmo must grab your attention for years and 7-8 buttons if a game killer for many.

Nothing to do with consoles , I use 40 skills on my 360 controller in SWTOR. Also PSU an MMO lasted 7 years on the xbox 360 , so not sure what to think. I do realise that PC MMO's mostly last longer than 7 years but not by much on average I should imagine. Try not to blame consoles for the dev's of this game's decisions thank you.

One hot bar does sound a little limiting though IMO.

Cheers,

BadOrb.

PSO 4 years , EQOA 4 months , PSU 7 years , SWTOR launch ongoing.
"SWG was not fun. Let it go buddy." quote from iiNoSkillzii 10/18/13
The original propoganda pixie dust villain :[]

  udon

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/23/07
Posts: 1605

12/18/13 12:16:06 PM#28
Originally posted by reckoner2
Originally posted by Mechanism

Every class gets at least 30 abilities to choose from, that seems like a lot of variety. And with all the combinations possible you're not not so likely to find two people with the same selection, so that's like variety squared.

My point is variety in active combat, it is not about variety when you are sitting at a skill/ability screen.

You barely have enough room for any utility abilities or defense buffs with 10 total skills if you are a DPS class for example. So the range of things your character can do in a fight is severely limited, that is the point. 

 

And again, I am asking for around 15-20 actions, not 1 million like other posters here have implied.

That is sort of the whole point of limited action bars isn't it?  To give you the option to play multiple roles but force you to decide how much flexibility you want compared to a pure role build.  I mean you can be a healer that does DPS but you won't have the slots to be a top end healer and top end DPSer at the same time.  You have to decide how much healing and DPS you want for the content your doing.  Abilities from the two roles are competing for slots on your hot bar.

Games with lots of action bars either limit your ability to do more than one role at class selection or they limit it with other things like talent/aa trees.  Games with limited action sets limit it with the number of abilities you can have on your action bar at any one time.  It's a different ways to look at the problem and I don't know if I would call any of them bad although i am not a fan of limiting by class selection because it is the most difficult of the bunch to change short of rolling a different class.

  coretex666

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/03/12
Posts: 1816

"I shall take your position into consideration"

12/18/13 12:16:16 PM#29
Originally posted by azzamasin

The days of multi-hotbar combat is dead my friend. 

 

Anyone who thinks that having access to so many abilities knows nothing about how to balance and build a successful and fun game.  Especially considering that the on average only a handful of those skills get used a majority of time.  Not only that anyone who enjoys playing whack-a-mole with their hotbars is deluding themselves in thinking it is any more skillful.

Any active or former WoW player would like to comment on this?

I find it rather amusing.

Currently playing: L2 Chronicle 4

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2718

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

12/18/13 12:18:32 PM#30
Originally posted by JemAs666
If mobs lived longer than ~10 seconds in modern MMOs, having more skills might make sense.  In the current MMO this is not the case and people only use 1 to 5 skills.  Lets face it, most people don't pay attention enough these days to play a game that involves 15-20 skill rotations.  They are too involved with watching TV, sitting on the toilet, or eating to waste time paying attention to more than mashing 1-5 on their keyboard.  In the EQ days the average player didn't have resources to have 9 monitors with 5 games going on at the same time, watching youtube, hulu, netflix, porn, and  25 different websites opened all at the same time.

I'd love to see someone do those things playing Path of Exile while mapping in level 74 maps or Merciless Dominus.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  Roguewiz

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/01/02
Posts: 502

When a Kender says "oops!"; its already too late.

12/18/13 12:18:51 PM#31

Even IF they gave us 15-20 skills to use at anytime, let's get something straight.

1.  Some skills will be more powerful than others, and thus making the other skills useless.

2.  Some skills will be situationally useless

3.  Some skills will share cooldowns with other similar skills.

Don't even get me started on balance issues.

Ultimately, the player will use the best skills available, and thus other skills will not be used or taken.

Raquelis in various games
Played: Everything
Playing: Everquest, Hearthstone, League of Legends
Wants: The World
Anticipating: Everquest Next, Everquest Next Landmark, Archeage

The secret to making a great game: Don't cater to the masses!

  Tamanous

Elite Member

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 1696

12/18/13 12:19:43 PM#32
Originally posted by azzamasin

The days of multi-hotbar combat is dead my friend. 

 

Anyone who thinks that having access to so many abilities knows nothing about how to balance and build a successful and fun game.  Especially considering that the on average only a handful of those skills get used a majority of time.  Not only that anyone who enjoys playing whack-a-mole with their hotbars is deluding themselves in thinking it is any more skillful.

Utterly and completely false and based upon assumptions.

 

Many mmos based on pc will have many hotkeys from now and into the future. It depends on what sort of game they are trying to make. CU will have many hotkeys because it is trying to attract old school mmo players and dedicate it's design for pc gaming. It is an important selling point for many of the contributors and for pc gamers in general.

 

Do not think that pc and console markets are so easily bridged. Genre will drive indie development as they must choose their audience carefully. Games will always offer choices between combat systems depending on what they are designed for and this will always differ between pc and consoles. You cannot have certain levels of combat complexity within various genres by restriction hotkeys simply because you want portability to console.

You stay sassy!

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2718

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

12/18/13 12:19:46 PM#33
Originally posted by coretex666
Originally posted by azzamasin

The days of multi-hotbar combat is dead my friend. 

 

Anyone who thinks that having access to so many abilities knows nothing about how to balance and build a successful and fun game.  Especially considering that the on average only a handful of those skills get used a majority of time.  Not only that anyone who enjoys playing whack-a-mole with their hotbars is deluding themselves in thinking it is any more skillful.

Any active or former WoW player would like to comment on this?

I find it rather amusing.

I played WoW for 6 years.  Mains were a Druid, Shaman, Warrior and finally a DK.  On average I rarely used more then 7-9 skills in a fight.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2718

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

12/18/13 12:21:21 PM#34
Originally posted by Tamanous
Originally posted by azzamasin

The days of multi-hotbar combat is dead my friend. 

 

Anyone who thinks that having access to so many abilities knows nothing about how to balance and build a successful and fun game.  Especially considering that the on average only a handful of those skills get used a majority of time.  Not only that anyone who enjoys playing whack-a-mole with their hotbars is deluding themselves in thinking it is any more skillful.

Utterly and completely false and based upon assumptions.

 

Many mmos based on pc will have many hotkeys from now and into the future. It depends on what sort of game they are trying to make. CU will have many hotkeys because it is trying to attract old school mmo players and dedicate it's design for pc gaming. It is an important selling point for many of the contributors and for pc gamers in general.

 

Do not think that pc and console markets are so easily bridged. Genre will drive indie development as they must choose their audience carefully. Games will always offer choices between combat systems depending on what they are designed for and this will always differ between pc and consoles. You cannot have certain levels of combat complexity within various genres by restriction hotkeys simply because you want portability to console.

And CU is not a big budget Triple-A game.  Thanks for proving my point.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  reckoner2

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/19/08
Posts: 27

 
OP  12/18/13 12:21:22 PM#35
Originally posted by azzamasin

The days of multi-hotbar combat is dead my friend. 

 

No, it isn't dead, most mmorpg players prefer it and that is partially why Wow is still number 1. What is going to happen is, developers will get the hint after the next few mmorpgs fail to generate the revenue they need. There will be some minor success but I predict in the end they will all be forced to free-to-play and die a slow death. 

Sure, there will be some cleanup to the number of abilities in Wow in future mmorpgs, but the current trend of a super low number of abilities will fail.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12113

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

12/18/13 12:22:02 PM#36
Originally posted by coretex666
Originally posted by azzamasin

The days of multi-hotbar combat is dead my friend. 

 

Anyone who thinks that having access to so many abilities knows nothing about how to balance and build a successful and fun game.  Especially considering that the on average only a handful of those skills get used a majority of time.  Not only that anyone who enjoys playing whack-a-mole with their hotbars is deluding themselves in thinking it is any more skillful.

Any active or former WoW player would like to comment on this?

I find it rather amusing.

It is amusing.

Amusing that it began the shift away from variance. attack type and various other elements of gameplay because combat was dumbed down to Whack-A-Mole: Cooldown Edition.  Something active again? MASH IT! So what it's a fireball that you're using on that magma golem... it's still extra DPS, right?

In order for CD to be entertaining and usable, most of the surrounding factors in combat had to be minimized or completely removed, for good or bad.

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fovoroth

  djazzy

Novice Member

Joined: 6/20/05
Posts: 3623

12/18/13 12:22:52 PM#37
Originally posted by Loktofeit

"Without 15-20 active skills/spells in the PC version, Wildstar will fail in the long run"

A classic example of the baggage that MMO gamers bring to the genre.

indeed

  coretex666

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/03/12
Posts: 1816

"I shall take your position into consideration"

12/18/13 12:28:47 PM#38
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by coretex666
Originally posted by azzamasin

The days of multi-hotbar combat is dead my friend. 

 

Anyone who thinks that having access to so many abilities knows nothing about how to balance and build a successful and fun game.  Especially considering that the on average only a handful of those skills get used a majority of time.  Not only that anyone who enjoys playing whack-a-mole with their hotbars is deluding themselves in thinking it is any more skillful.

Any active or former WoW player would like to comment on this?

I find it rather amusing.

It is amusing.

Amusing that it began the shift away from variance. attack type and various other elements of gameplay because combat was dumbed down to Whack-A-Mole: Cooldown Edition.  Something active again? MASH IT! So what it's a fireball that you're using on that magma golem... it's still extra DPS, right?

In order for CD to be entertaining and usable, most of the surrounding factors in combat had to be minimized or completely removed, for good or bad.

 

You do realize I was referring to that one particular sentence, right.

 

Currently playing: L2 Chronicle 4

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10563

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

12/18/13 12:34:18 PM#39


Originally posted by azzamasin

Originally posted by coretex666

Originally posted by azzamasin The days of multi-hotbar combat is dead my friend.    Anyone who thinks that having access to so many abilities knows nothing about how to balance and build a successful and fun game.  Especially considering that the on average only a handful of those skills get used a majority of time.  Not only that anyone who enjoys playing whack-a-mole with their hotbars is deluding themselves in thinking it is any more skillful.
Any active or former WoW player would like to comment on this? I find it rather amusing.
I played WoW for 6 years.  Mains were a Druid, Shaman, Warrior and finally a DK.  On average I rarely used more then 7-9 skills in a fight.



Yeah, I would have to agree with this. You would use more skills in PvP combat, but rarely more than a single bar's worth of skills on a regular basis. This was without macros too.

I've had dynamic and interesting combat using a couple of buttons in single player console games, and I've had interesting combat using a Razer Naga mouse too. The difference in combat wasn't the number of buttons though. It was how the combat was presented, how interactive it was and how responsive the combat was to the things I was doing.

I think a key element is how committed a developer is to the type of combat they've chosen. WoW is tab target, hot key combat, but they have totally committed to it. The same can be said for Bioshock Infinite, except it is FPS combat based on aim, movement and ammo management. TSW on the other hand didn't really seem to commit to the tab target combat, and tried to give a nod to action based combat. The result doesn't really deliver. Not because of the number of buttons the player has active at any given time, but because the developer seems to have gotten wishy washy with the combat style. If that makes sense.

So I don't think the number of active buttons is going to have anything to do with WildStar's success. They could have six or sixty potentially active skills and do very well with it or do horrible with it.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Butch808

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/16/09
Posts: 321

12/18/13 12:34:44 PM#40
Originally posted by reckoner2
Originally posted by azzamasin

The days of multi-hotbar combat is dead my friend. 

 

No, it isn't dead, most mmorpg players prefer it and that is partially why Wow is still number 1. What is going to happen is, developers will get the hint after the next few mmorpgs fail to generate the revenue they need. There will be some minor success but I predict in the end they will all be forced to free-to-play and die a slow death. 

Sure, there will be some cleanup to the number of abilities in Wow in future mmorpgs, but the current trend of a super low number of abilities will fail.

You got it backwards my friend, what done is done, the industry doesn't go backwards, the industry won't go backwards.. only forward and eventually games change, hence why we aren't still playing Pong.

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