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General Discussion  » Of how i lost my WoW guild to Bob. (rant/vent)

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125 posts found
  Zinzan

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/03/06
Posts: 1368

12/09/13 9:03:11 AM#81
Originally posted by MmoFluff

Just to clarify something, i am not really blaming "Bob" for this situation and i do not think i have put him on a bad light neither in my original post nor in my replies to everyone´s comments.

Bob is a nice (if a bit prideful) guy and despite the situation he behaved in a noble and polite way about it.

And while we all knew that if i refused the guild would be broken, he did not see fit to use it as a moral weapon to convince me.

The ones who were rough and pushy about it were his "followers", many of which i had assisted countless times, which is why i felt  hurt by the whole situation, as i believe that even if they followed this path, i deserved more respect than what i got.

At least you learnt one valuable lesson about online gaming, people are often nice when it suits them and have short memories when its convenient, especially in games like WoW. Don't blame yourself, it sucks but there is nothing you could have done about it really. Best to find out sooner rather than later what these players were truly like.

these people were never your friends, if they were they would have supported you and never asked you to give up the GM position.

As others have said, while you should not consider it "your" guild, if you are the GM then you are the leader of that guild.if you give up leadership then you become only as valuable as your characters to players who couldn't care less how decent or helpful a person you are.

Im fortunate enough to be part of a solid gaming guild who are friends, none of us would ever ask the GM to give it up and if he wanted to pass it on it would always be on the provision he could have it back whenever he wanted.  Our guild stands strong for over a decade and if "bob" had appeared he would have been welcomed but the second he wanted to disrupt the structure, he would have been told politely no and asked to make a decision, if he wanted to be a GM, he should go and start a guild of his own. The difference is in a guild of friends, no one would have pushed for the GM switch and no one would consider themselves bigger than the guild.

Again, I'm sorry those ungrateful people screwed you over, but at least you can move on now. There are plenty of good people out there and this might be a blessing in disguise.

Expresso gave me a Hearthstone beta key.....I'm so happy :)

  Jeleena

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/27/08
Posts: 121

12/09/13 3:21:21 PM#82
Originally posted by Ridrith
 

We also had a number of rules that we enforced.

No couples.

No female players.

Weekly Guild Meetings - In ventrilo.

Taking a break every week from raiding and playing other games with each other.

Red text. Unbelievable....this is 2013 we are talking about????  

  mistmaker

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/11/12
Posts: 215

12/09/13 3:28:16 PM#83
Originally posted by Jeleena
Originally posted by Ridrith
 

We also had a number of rules that we enforced.

No couples.

No female players.

Weekly Guild Meetings - In ventrilo.

Taking a break every week from raiding and playing other games with each other.

Red text. Unbelievable....this is 2013 we are talking about????  

their rules. probably they already got enough bad healers lol, just joking....

  mbd1968

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/21/07
Posts: 1902

12/09/13 3:34:00 PM#84
Originally posted by Solar_Prophet

You should have stayed guild leader. Sure, you might have lost a large chunk of your members along with Bob, but the 30% or so who remained would be the ones who appreciated your efforts. Even if everybody left, you could've still started fresh.

Running a guild like a democracy doesn't usually end well.

This is what I was going to say.

  Solar_Prophet

Elite Member

Joined: 11/10/13
Posts: 558

12/09/13 3:42:09 PM#85
Originally posted by Jeleena
Originally posted by Ridrith
 

We also had a number of rules that we enforced.

No couples.

No female players.

Weekly Guild Meetings - In ventrilo.

Taking a break every week from raiding and playing other games with each other.

Red text. Unbelievable....this is 2013 we are talking about????  

I noticed that too. While I understand the reasoning behind it (guys tend to get stupid over female players, and some females play off that like nobody's business) that doesn't make it any less sexist.

Personally I'd let female players in, but boot them and / or any guy who starts with the white knighting bullcrap at the first sign of trouble.

Today's message is brought to you by Travel Syria. Come for the jihad, stay for the sarin gas!

  Sephiroso

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/01/05
Posts: 1056

12/09/13 4:13:54 PM#86
Originally posted by Solar_Prophet
Originally posted by Jeleena
Originally posted by Ridrith
 

We also had a number of rules that we enforced.

No couples.

No female players.

Weekly Guild Meetings - In ventrilo.

Taking a break every week from raiding and playing other games with each other.

Red text. Unbelievable....this is 2013 we are talking about????  

I noticed that too. While I understand the reasoning behind it (guys tend to get stupid over female players, and some females play off that like nobody's business) that doesn't make it any less sexist.

Personally I'd let female players in, but boot them and / or any guy who starts with the white knighting bullcrap at the first sign of trouble.

and you end up losing some very good players in your guild all because you want to be PC and let females in. no thanks.


Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  Jeleena

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/27/08
Posts: 121

12/09/13 4:19:54 PM#87
Originally posted by Solar_Prophet
Originally posted by Jeleena
Originally posted by Ridrith
 

We also had a number of rules that we enforced.

No couples.

No female players.

Weekly Guild Meetings - In ventrilo.

Taking a break every week from raiding and playing other games with each other.

Red text. Unbelievable....this is 2013 we are talking about????  

I noticed that too. While I understand the reasoning behind it (guys tend to get stupid over female players, and some females play off that like nobody's business) that doesn't make it any less sexist.

Yet guys never get shut out as a 'precaution' but females are...

Personally I'd let female players in, but boot them and / or any guy who starts with the white knighting bullcrap at the first sign of trouble.

How generous of you  /sarcasm.

Sorry but after years of this kind of crap attitude towards female gamers I have no patience left on thise topic.

At the OP, sorry for taking this offtopic....

  Jeleena

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/27/08
Posts: 121

12/09/13 4:23:04 PM#88
Originally posted by Sephiroso
Originally posted by Solar_Prophet
Originally posted by Jeleena
Originally posted by Ridrith
 

We also had a number of rules that we enforced.

No couples.

No female players.

Weekly Guild Meetings - In ventrilo.

Taking a break every week from raiding and playing other games with each other.

Red text. Unbelievable....this is 2013 we are talking about????  

I noticed that too. While I understand the reasoning behind it (guys tend to get stupid over female players, and some females play off that like nobody's business) that doesn't make it any less sexist.

Personally I'd let female players in, but boot them and / or any guy who starts with the white knighting bullcrap at the first sign of trouble.

and you end up losing some very good players in your guild all because you want to be PC and let females in. no thanks.

Because EVERYONE knows, females can not be good players and only join guilds to stir trouble for the boys 

  danmax67

Novice Member

Joined: 10/14/05
Posts: 30

12/09/13 4:24:51 PM#89

I was sort of 'Bob' in Eve Online.  I've been playing Eve for almost 10 years.  About 2 years ago, our little corporation of long-time friends just sort of lazily chatted and had fun.  My friend, let's call him 'Fluff', was the founder and leader of our little corp.  I decided to see if I could expand the corp., bring in new members, help new players, grow us into more activities, etc.  With much effort, we grew and grew eventually becoming an alliance.

 

Now here's where your Bob and I differ.  Never once did I undermine Fluff or try to sway people to me.  Rather, asked for his ok in all major decisions and kept him in the loop when I was doing something.  I always made it clear to our pilots that he is our leader, even when I was leading things and even when he was mostly taking a break from the game.

 

We are very easygoing and laid back, and maybe a WoW raiding guild is a different animal, but one thing I found very important was to have various people with various roles and responsibilities.  Basically, we have a group of leaders and everyone's input is wanted, positive or negative.  In Eve at least, it's just too much of a job to run an alliance by yourself anyway.  I'm not sufficiently familiar with WoW to know whether a guild leader has much other stuff to do besides raiding, but I imagine you do.  Also, I try to give credit whenever someone does things for the good of the alliance, whether it is leading a fleet or simply moving assets.  I find people really appreciate that.

 

In your situation, I think a good approach would have been to stay as leader, but to put Bob in charge of raiding.  Maybe put someone else in charge of leveling, someone in charge of whatever else your guild does.  At least that's how we did it in Eve.  We comprised our alliance of various corps.  Pvp, industrial, new player, etc. Each led by someone who was a good fit for that role.  Members are always free to engage in the activities of their choice, but there is leadership for them.  That way, you guide the ship, Bob guides raiding, etc. and everyone, for the most part, is happy. 

  mari3k

Novice Member

Joined: 2/23/13
Posts: 146

12/09/13 4:29:45 PM#90

Thats life my friend…. also called survival of the fittest .

He was better then you so he is the up and you are down. You better stop crying, and thank god that this lesson was told you in a virtual world, not the real one where bob also would have your Job and your wife.

Step in the arena and break the wall down

  Sephiroso

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/01/05
Posts: 1056

12/09/13 4:31:52 PM#91
Originally posted by Jeleena
Originally posted by Sephiroso
Originally posted by Solar_Prophet
Originally posted by Jeleena
Originally posted by Ridrith
 

We also had a number of rules that we enforced.

No couples.

No female players.

Weekly Guild Meetings - In ventrilo.

Taking a break every week from raiding and playing other games with each other.

Red text. Unbelievable....this is 2013 we are talking about????  

I noticed that too. While I understand the reasoning behind it (guys tend to get stupid over female players, and some females play off that like nobody's business) that doesn't make it any less sexist.

Personally I'd let female players in, but boot them and / or any guy who starts with the white knighting bullcrap at the first sign of trouble.

and you end up losing some very good players in your guild all because you want to be PC and let females in. no thanks.

Because EVERYONE knows, females can not be good players and only join guilds to stir trouble for the boys 

Woman logic^, where did i say females can't be good players. You risk complete raid cohesion when you introduce a female into the mix cause as someone said before me, guys get stupid when a female is around. So, you have 3 choices.

 

1. be PC and let females in, chaos happens, you kick the people who was apart of it, now your raid group is left in shambles.

 

2. be proactive and -not- let females in, business continues as usual. (this is the winner)

 

3. be PC and let females in, chaos still happens because since you're letting females in, the guys wanna get their gf's in, and so you let their gfs in, then the females want their bfs in, and then if you don't let both in the raid they both leave, and now your raid group is left in shambles.


Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  Tsumoro

Elite Member

Joined: 6/30/12
Posts: 287

12/09/13 4:40:22 PM#92

Consider this a lesson in experience and do not let it sully you too much. If you like guild leading and you like leveling people up AND are unhappy with how things went. I would strongly recommend that you leave and start again. Sadly you cannot run a guild like a democracy, it just doesn't work as well as you think it would on paper. 

Ideally you should of kept the guild as you envisioned it and had officers to cater to those whom had different interests. So, you might have raid leaders in place for a Monday, Thursday raid night or you might have a PvP officer. 

Yes it sucks, I know but I have run 3 guilds in WoW before a new guild with every return as I typically make a new toon each time I return. 2 of them I handed down the mantle as I wasn't playing any more the other I lost everyone in the guild due to lack of raid progression. I actually set raid leaders up for it and they pretty much left with all the raiders, started their own guild... and still got nowhere. But, hey, that's people for you. 

  Solar_Prophet

Elite Member

Joined: 11/10/13
Posts: 558

12/09/13 4:45:13 PM#93
Originally posted by Jeleena
Originally posted by Solar_Prophet
Originally posted by Jeleena
Originally posted by Ridrith
 

We also had a number of rules that we enforced.

No couples.

No female players.

Weekly Guild Meetings - In ventrilo.

Taking a break every week from raiding and playing other games with each other.

Red text. Unbelievable....this is 2013 we are talking about????  

I noticed that too. While I understand the reasoning behind it (guys tend to get stupid over female players, and some females play off that like nobody's business) that doesn't make it any less sexist.

Yet guys never get shut out as a 'precaution' but females are...

Personally I'd let female players in, but boot them and / or any guy who starts with the white knighting bullcrap at the first sign of trouble.

How generous of you  /sarcasm.

Sorry but after years of this kind of crap attitude towards female gamers I have no patience left on thise topic.

At the OP, sorry for taking this offtopic....

And now we start with the bra-burning feminazi crap. Females are shut out because, like it or not, they still make up a minority of players, and it's much easier to exclude the minority by default then the majority. If you would stop for a moment with the over-the-top, "FEMINISM RAWR"! crap and actually think about it like a rational person, you'd realize that.

Crap attitude? I literally said, in the post you quoted, that I had no problem with female players joining a guild WHAT SO EVER. As far as booting people, a disruptive person is a disruptive person, regardless of gender. And yes, trouble can start because of cross-gender bullshit, and like any other type of drama, it shouldn't be tolerated.

What am I supposed to do, huh? Serve on bended knee, apologizing profusely for the fact I wasn't born with a set of ovaries? Christ almighty, I'm on YOUR side, pointing out the fact that a 'no females' stance is sexist, and that's STILL not good enough for you!

I think you're the one who needs to check their 'crap attitude' at the door. You're not looking for equality, you're looking for special treatment. You're exactly the kind of woman which makes guilds institute 'no females' policies, period. So congratulations on being part of the fucking problem.

Today's message is brought to you by Travel Syria. Come for the jihad, stay for the sarin gas!

  Rattenmann

Elite Member

Joined: 12/08/05
Posts: 311

12/09/13 4:47:37 PM#94
Originally posted by Jeleena
Originally posted by Sephiroso
Originally posted by Solar_Prophet
Originally posted by Jeleena
Originally posted by Ridrith
 

We also had a number of rules that we enforced.

No couples.

No female players.

Weekly Guild Meetings - In ventrilo.

Taking a break every week from raiding and playing other games with each other.

Red text. Unbelievable....this is 2013 we are talking about????  

I noticed that too. While I understand the reasoning behind it (guys tend to get stupid over female players, and some females play off that like nobody's business) that doesn't make it any less sexist.

Personally I'd let female players in, but boot them and / or any guy who starts with the white knighting bullcrap at the first sign of trouble.

and you end up losing some very good players in your guild all because you want to be PC and let females in. no thanks.

Because EVERYONE knows, females can not be good players and only join guilds to stir trouble for the boys 

Don't want to sound bland,... BUT:

 

I already said the bad stuff about democracy in games and i will have to second this "anto female"-idea as well sadly. I NEVER rejected a female player IF the quality as a raider was on par or better then the rest of the team AND we needed that class at the moment. (Used to be a semi hardcore progression guild).

I have had it happen THREE times that a female comes in, starts flirting with guys... starts talking behind someone elses back and we had drama in the guild. The first time we tried to solve it nicely... lost half the guild. The second time we told her to stop or be kicked. We ended up losing half the guild again after a longer while.

The third time we kicked her right away when it started and we lost noone else.

 

It is sad and i would have done the same to any male player doing the same. But frankly, in the past 15 years of gaming i have seen this kind of crap like a DOZEN times but only once due to a male. And he was gay (really, and not meant as an offence, but a fact he openly admited).

 

So i fully understand if some people want to skip the drama and set up rules accordingly. In democracy this is forbidden. In games it is not. This has nothing to do with good or bad player. Our best healer and best DDs used to be females. But drama free females. Sadly drama is attached to females like it is to 12-16 year old kids. Sure this does not mean every female or every 12-16 year old causes drama, but chances are high and the negative impact is harsh enough to want to avoid that, if possible.

 

Edit: Also there are plenty of RL jobs that demand females and do not accept men. This is not even against any laws (in germany at least), but it is against the laws the other way. Hard to make two persons that are so different equal. But funny how we keep trying to make + and - equal, but only onesided, isn't it?

MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.

Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?

  Sephiroso

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/01/05
Posts: 1056

12/09/13 4:54:40 PM#95
can't really say it any better than Zara put it.


Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  ElRenmazuo

Elite Member

Joined: 10/28/06
Posts: 3835

12/09/13 4:59:35 PM#96
I would rather be the leader of a guild with no one but me in it than to hand my leadership to someone else, and anyone who wants to follow that someone else can kiss my ass too. 
  Cymoril

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/16/13
Posts: 9

12/09/13 5:07:33 PM#97

 I would have taken a step back and created a "Raid Leader" position and had everyone vote. (We know Bob would have won) and then slowed down on the raiding with them and sub catagorizied  the other leadership roles to protect yourself. As also posted, the Raiders might have split but if you created the guild and put time and in game money, resources, personal time, etc then you should have taken an admin role and protected yourself and kept doing what you feel was helping the guild for the big picture.

I would also have created a PvP Team Leader postion, and a Crafting Leader postion and kept the highest priority since interests were splitting and not get sucked into the full time raid spot only to get kicked to the curb. I had a similar situation in a 8 man guild with Dark Age of Camelot. It wasn't my guild but at some point the handwriting was on the wall for me, I moved on and found another guild that was just as fun and not nearly uptight as my "serious" PvP guild the first year and a half.

  avalon1000

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 710

12/09/13 5:24:59 PM#98
As a leader (not the founding one) of a guild I can understand the pressure you were under. Our Guild has gone through three very tough splits and is not very active today. Since I am off doing other games it really does not matter anymore. In any case it's just a game and there are more pressing things in life.
  Robokapp

Elite Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4475

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

12/10/13 5:40:45 AM#99

take a look at how much drama even mentioning female players has caused....in an otherwise decent topic.

 

I think we have a good argument for why that rule belongs in some guilds right in front of our eyes, the past 25 posts.

 

THIS is exactly why that rule exists.

 

 

  Anslem

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/16/12
Posts: 198

12/10/13 3:20:03 PM#100
Originally posted by Zaradoom
Originally posted by Jeleena
Originally posted by Sephiroso
Originally posted by Solar_Prophet
Originally posted by Jeleena
Originally posted by Ridrith
 

We also had a number of rules that we enforced.

No couples.

No female players.

Weekly Guild Meetings - In ventrilo.

Taking a break every week from raiding and playing other games with each other.

Red text. Unbelievable....this is 2013 we are talking about????  

I noticed that too. While I understand the reasoning behind it (guys tend to get stupid over female players, and some females play off that like nobody's business) that doesn't make it any less sexist.

Personally I'd let female players in, but boot them and / or any guy who starts with the white knighting bullcrap at the first sign of trouble.

and you end up losing some very good players in your guild all because you want to be PC and let females in. no thanks.

Because EVERYONE knows, females can not be good players and only join guilds to stir trouble for the boys 

Don't want to sound bland,... BUT:

 

I already said the bad stuff about democracy in games and i will have to second this "anto female"-idea as well sadly. I NEVER rejected a female player IF the quality as a raider was on par or better then the rest of the team AND we needed that class at the moment. (Used to be a semi hardcore progression guild).

I have had it happen THREE times that a female comes in, starts flirting with guys... starts talking behind someone elses back and we had drama in the guild. The first time we tried to solve it nicely... lost half the guild. The second time we told her to stop or be kicked. We ended up losing half the guild again after a longer while.

The third time we kicked her right away when it started and we lost noone else.

 

It is sad and i would have done the same to any male player doing the same. But frankly, in the past 15 years of gaming i have seen this kind of crap like a DOZEN times but only once due to a male. And he was gay (really, and not meant as an offence, but a fact he openly admited).

 

So i fully understand if some people want to skip the drama and set up rules accordingly. In democracy this is forbidden. In games it is not. This has nothing to do with good or bad player. Our best healer and best DDs used to be females. But drama free females. Sadly drama is attached to females like it is to 12-16 year old kids. Sure this does not mean every female or every 12-16 year old causes drama, but chances are high and the negative impact is harsh enough to want to avoid that, if possible.

 

Edit: Also there are plenty of RL jobs that demand females and do not accept men. This is not even against any laws (in germany at least), but it is against the laws the other way. Hard to make two persons that are so different equal. But funny how we keep trying to make + and - equal, but only onesided, isn't it?

Females can be more emotionally invested when gaming because of the way their brains are wired (feelers more often than thinkers) and I've seen some drama llamas in my gaming heydey of both sexes.  I think a stereotype has formed around female games; a stereotype as essential to a well rounded guild as the slow-speaking rogue/assassin who's always stoned.  But then, there are stereotypes for a reason. 

Just curious, what kind of jobs don't accept men?  Just wondering your train of thought.  Hope this question isn't coming across as inciting drama... :D 

 

Played: Ultima Online - DaoC - WoW -

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