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General Discussion  » Character Progression: Be Who You Want to Be

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52 posts found
  asrlohz

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/11
Posts: 662

Alea iacta est, beloved Doomsayers.

12/04/13 3:29:59 AM#21
Originally posted by PerfArt

Good points, asrlohz. I was thinking something similar.

One thing to take into account is something that will hugely affect gameplay: active class skills use Magicka while Weapon and Armor skills use Stamina.  I am sure I don't need to elaborate why that is a very important thing to consider when planning builds, especially when looking at Armor type.

So that means that whether Racial and Guild skills use Magicka, Stamina, or a combination of the two is an important thing to know. 

As it stands, Heavy Armor users are going to face a lot more resource management in the area of class skills and Weapon Skills, which is actually awesome mechanically. 

Interesting stuff.

Exactly! Having a unique class to some extent is what puts the RP into MMO _ _ G. I want people to start trying to work out cookiecutter builds, only to have them countered by some guy who just built around their build. Specialization and niche builds will matter.

 

Just like in Hearthstone you can play against a mage and know what possible cards she might have that are unique to her class, but that mage could still be playing a creature heavy Murloc deck and absolutely trample you.

And in LoL how you can play as a support character and still build around damage, completely taking the enemies by surprise.

 

And same goes for the armour design for Bosmers. You can wear leather armour but it can still be a Heavy leather armour because Bosmers rarely use plating or anything that isn't either bone or hides. Or you could be an orc disguised in Elven armour, deceiving those whom just glance at you from afar. I think this asymmetrical design will help adding depth into the game without making it completely impossible to balance or design.

  Lord.Bachus

Elite Member

Joined: 5/14/07
Posts: 8591

I believe in life before death... So dont forget to enjoy it while you still can.

12/04/13 4:12:18 AM#22
Originally posted by PerfArt
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
Originally posted by Celusios

The only complaint I have ever had about this game for an Elder Scrolls game is the inability for what this video says you can do. You can't be the character you want to be. Much like a plethora of other MMO's you are forced into a class, sure this one is a "soft" class... but none the less a class.

 

Elder Scrolls was always fun because you had the ability to truly chose what you wanted to be. In this one, you pick between a rogue, a mage, a paladin, or a warrior.

You are not forced intoo a class, but for ed intoo a build..

 

there will be no switching around builds, as you cant respec your choices, you can tune your build by switching weapons and skills, however you will allways have the same passives and  stats..  

You have to choose a class. There are class skills that you cannot change (though you may train or not train them you see fit) and class skills from other classes you can never train. That is indeed a class. Granted, the class only makes up a portion of the potential builds possible, but they are set.

You are right, you have to choose a class, but that is only a part of your build...  It gives you 3 trees... And then there is 1 tree from your race, add to that fighters, mages( and later on thieves and dark brotherhood ) trees..  Vampire, Werewolf trees and there is more then enough things to spend slillpoints on outside of your specific class ...

i think crafting, pvp, and emperor skill trees stand on their own..

weapon fighting and armor skilltrees are a different system too, they improve as you use your weapons and armor... Dont require skillpoints to improve the tree, but it might cost skillpoints to improve single skills in those trees..

 

all in all there are so many buildingblocks that classchoice might not be so important after all, we will have to see...  But since you can not respec  you are stuck with a single build, and since skillpoints are not infinite, people may end up with only spending points in the skills they want...   On top of that skills grow in power when they are placed on your hotbar... 

 

So if you never have used a flamestrike on your hotbar, then it could be a very weak strike to begin with, and it moght take days or weeks of training to get it on par with other skills..

 

 

the system is so much different from gw2 where you can keep mixing and matching ultimately, this is a good thing for my  character immersion, while the abbility to switch all over the place seemed like fun, it turns a virtual world into a game more then intoo an immersive experience..

 

keep in mind that for the true min maxers the system will be a pain,  as it will not tollerate mistakes and changes of insight... And every spec or build change might require you to relevel an alt, unless over time they add mechanics that allow you to slowly unlearn skills ( your  xp goes to unlearning a skill instead of leveling)  but they will not be in at release..

 

i can allready see the whining all over after 3 months of gaming.

Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  asrlohz

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/11
Posts: 662

Alea iacta est, beloved Doomsayers.

12/04/13 4:35:36 AM#23
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
Originally posted by PerfArt
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
 

You have to choose a class. There are class skills that you cannot change (though you may train or not train them you see fit) and class skills from other classes you can never train. That is indeed a class. Granted, the class only makes up a portion of the potential builds possible, but they are set.

You are right, you have to choose a class, but that is only a part of your build...  It gives you 3 trees... And then there is 1 tree from your race, add to that fighters, mages( and later on thieves and dark brotherhood ) trees..  Vampire, Werewolf trees and there is more then enough things to spend slillpoints on outside of your specific class ...

i think crafting, pvp, and emperor skill trees stand on their own..

weapon fighting and armor skilltrees are a different system too, they improve as you use your weapons and armor... Dont require skillpoints to improve the tree, but it might cost skillpoints to improve single skills in those trees..

all in all there are so many buildingblocks that classchoice might not be so important after all, we will have to see...  But since you can not respec  you are stuck with a single build, and since skillpoints are not infinite, people may end up with only spending points in the skills they want...   On top of that skills grow in power when they are placed on your hotbar... 

So if you never have used a flamestrike on your hotbar, then it could be a very weak strike to begin with, and it moght take days or weeks of training to get it on par with other skills..

the system is so much different from gw2 where you can keep mixing and matching ultimately, this is a good thing for my  character immersion, while the abbility to switch all over the place seemed like fun, it turns a virtual world into a game more then intoo an immersive experience..

keep in mind that for the true min maxers the system will be a pain,  as it will not tollerate mistakes and changes of insight... And every spec or build change might require you to relevel an alt, unless over time they add mechanics that allow you to slowly unlearn skills ( your  xp goes to unlearning a skill instead of leveling)  but they will not be in at release..

 

i can allready see the whining all over after 3 months of gaming.

I'm glad you came around. Point is that min/maxing won't work in TES:O. Sure, you can min/max leveling and damage but because of the asymmetrical nature of the game it will be really hard not to get countered.

 

If you love min/maxing through out PvE content, the skills shouldn't actually matter to you. It's only in PvE were the "Perfect Build" would matter, and as I've said. That build will be countered by an argonian Nightblade that went pure Nightblade and used his Histskin ability against you. There are just too many skill lines and too little actionbars to make a mathematically and universally perfect build.

 

(By the way, there will be respeccing in the game. And there will be enough skillpoints to get just about all skills available. Just farm some skyshards)

  Vonatar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/18/10
Posts: 571

12/04/13 4:41:57 AM#24

I don't think this aspect of TESO gets enough credit. People focus on "class choice" and think it means being forced into a role. That is completely untrue of TESO.

 

Because of the flexibility, people will need to think outside the box when making their character. Take for example Matt Firor's favourite build of a dark magic specced sorceror with a bow. Is this a mage because it uses the sorceror class? No, it's more of a arcane ranger, using the cc abilities of the dark magic tree to support ranged combat in terms of stuns and roots. These kinds of builds are possible across all classes and the fun of character progression is going to be working out what you like, what works and actually playing the game to earn the points for your build.

  emperorwings

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/25/06
Posts: 1340

12/04/13 4:59:47 AM#25
No blacksmith leveling?

This isn't a signature, you just think it is.

  xanthmetis

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/07/13
Posts: 119

12/04/13 5:03:51 AM#26

i think this system will shine in pvp where different tactics can be used to  give u an advantage... ie a nightblade healer that gets past a defense or doesnt need many peels... or just the class combinations that would not get with "normal or expected class/builds" that represent the most powerful or easiest things that work in pve...  i noticed in gw2 for example some of toughest teams were that played things that werent in the current meta but worked extremely well together if played by talented players... you get things you werent always prepared for... looks like a fun game to bad im a mouse clicker hehe....

]

  asrlohz

Elite Member

Joined: 7/29/11
Posts: 662

Alea iacta est, beloved Doomsayers.

12/04/13 5:16:57 AM#27
Originally posted by emperorwings
No blacksmith leveling?

Actually, crafting in TES:O will be much deeper than what it was in any of the previous TES titles. You will learn to craft different (racially) kinds of armours. So you could craft an Orcish Iron Armour and an Altmeri Iron Armour if you have enough skill and have discovered the required recipes. This means that all Iron Armours do not look alike, and you can mix and match Iron sets.

 

You can also add rare properties to the weapons you craft without having to enchant them. These are done by adding additives that can be found in dungeons, out in the world and bought. I believe the higher level your weaponsmithing skill is, the better more additives you can add up to a maximum of 3. Each of which additive will add a certain property. And there are many of these additives so you'll have a very indepth crafting system.

 

You can also improve non-crafted armour and weapons (such as dungeon loot) if you're a crafter. Essentially, the best equipment is crafted or improved.

  Arataki

Novice Member

Joined: 12/19/07
Posts: 243

12/04/13 11:56:51 AM#28

About the comment that non-Templar classes only get healing abilities from the Restoration Staff.

Wrong.

I know the Nightblade Siphon class line that you can see on the Foundry can morph to heals for other players. So no, it isn't nearly as cut and paste as some people seem to think. Wait on details first.

  Pigglesworth

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/02/13
Posts: 266

12/04/13 6:03:07 PM#29
Apparently there is a respec option. Glad to see this.
http://elderscrollsonline.com/en/news/post/2013/12/04/creating-eso-designing-skill-lines

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  Celusios

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/06/10
Posts: 349

12/04/13 11:24:42 PM#30
Originally posted by asrlohz
Originally posted by Celusios
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
Originally posted by Celusios

The only complaint I have ever had about this game for an Elder Scrolls game is the inability for what this video says you can do. You can't be the character you want to be. Much like a plethora of other MMO's you are forced into a class, sure this one is a "soft" class... but none the less a class.

 

Elder Scrolls was always fun because you had the ability to truly chose what you wanted to be. In this one, you pick between a rogue, a mage, a paladin, or a warrior.

You are not forced intoo a class, but for ed intoo a build..

 

there will be no switching around builds, as you cant respec your choices, you can tune your build by switching weapons and skills, however you will allways have the same passives and  stats..  

It is a class. What do you mean bro? Literally you have four selection choices.

Paladin, Warrior, Rogue, Mage. You pick one and from there can select the weapons, armor, and some other general skills they pick. The only difference this character progression has from every other MMO of the past generation is the ability to use any weapon as well as any armor.

A true character progression is what Mortal Online has. You literally pick everything your character does and is. That is what Elder Scrolls has always been. You can become anything you want, but they have killed this in this game. 

I don't remember being able to pick the Argonians racial as a Bosmer in Elder Scrolls. Do you?

 

Point is, you can pick EVERYTHING except for the 3 starter skill lines you get from your class that are unique to your class. And if you think that you will absolutely need all of those skills you are silly. You can't even them in your hotbar. This isn't WoW.

 

So, pick what class you are most inclined to play between the Sorcerer, the Templar, the Dragonknight and the Nightblade. Do you really think that you will need those other 9 starter skill lines? Because you can't even fit all of those into your hotbar. And most passives will be useless to you. Chances are that most people just want a single skill line from a single class. The rest of the skill lines in the game are available to everyone.

I would go into specifics but that would breach NDA. Just going off public information you should still be capable of selecting which skills you want to use.. just like every other elder scrolls game. You have to make a decision that personalizes your character. All you have right now is a glorified class system. 

Part of the fun of an Elder Scrolls game was going out and actually spending the time, effort, etc to obtain new skills. Now, we're all the same. The diversity (again I won't go into non public details cause I don't wanna breach) is very limited from this video. 

What if I want to be a healer who can use that cool pull technique they have showed in past videos for Dragonknights? I can't. That is a problem is it not in an Elder Scrolls game?

  Ujirik

Novice Member

Joined: 3/27/07
Posts: 457

12/05/13 12:01:18 AM#31
I'm really looking forward to this game.  They've made many improvements since it was originally announced.

  User Deleted
12/05/13 12:03:23 AM#32
Originally posted by Celusios
 

What if I want to be a healer who can use that cool pull technique they have showed in past videos for Dragonknights? I can't. That is a problem is it not in an Elder Scrolls game?

Your example would require picking Dragonknight as a class with some healing option in its skill line and the restoration staff. 

There's also other ways to gain active abilities outside of Class/Weapon/Armor.  There's the guilds, becoming a werewolf or a vampire as examples as well.  It is unknown whether those options will give you any healing.  Well I don't think that info is public knowledge yet at least.

 

  Celusios

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/06/10
Posts: 349

12/05/13 1:20:02 AM#33
Originally posted by jdnyc
Originally posted by Celusios
 

What if I want to be a healer who can use that cool pull technique they have showed in past videos for Dragonknights? I can't. That is a problem is it not in an Elder Scrolls game?

Your example would require picking Dragonknight as a class with some healing option in its skill line and the restoration staff. 

There's also other ways to gain active abilities outside of Class/Weapon/Armor.  There's the guilds, becoming a werewolf or a vampire as examples as well.  It is unknown whether those options will give you any healing.  Well I don't think that info is public knowledge yet at least.

 

Which is no doubt cool and all but I still think you're missing my point. This isn't like an Elder Scrolls game. You should of just picked your race then had to gain skills just like other Elder Scrolls games. This class system isn't needed.

  Drelkag

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/12/13
Posts: 57

12/05/13 1:25:52 AM#34

Seems a lot of people haven't played the first two TES games where the items you can equip and whether you can learn spells were determined by class. That or forgetting the racial abilities in every game after.

You were always limited depending on class/race in a TES game. Not to this degree, yes, but we can't say you'll be limited to one class if you want to tank well, to heal well, etc. until we get some hands on time with the game and its later levels.

IMO this class system is a mix of Arena, being that the class you pick determined at least some of your abilities (though not nearly as harsh in Arena) and the later games in the series where you can pick up and use anything.

Playing: Mabinogi

  User Deleted
12/05/13 2:36:10 AM#35
Originally posted by Celusios
Originally posted by jdnyc
Originally posted by Celusios
 

What if I want to be a healer who can use that cool pull technique they have showed in past videos for Dragonknights? I can't. That is a problem is it not in an Elder Scrolls game?

Your example would require picking Dragonknight as a class with some healing option in its skill line and the restoration staff. 

There's also other ways to gain active abilities outside of Class/Weapon/Armor.  There's the guilds, becoming a werewolf or a vampire as examples as well.  It is unknown whether those options will give you any healing.  Well I don't think that info is public knowledge yet at least.

 

Which is no doubt cool and all but I still think you're missing my point. This isn't like an Elder Scrolls game. You should of just picked your race then had to gain skills just like other Elder Scrolls games. This class system isn't needed.

This isn't Skyrim Online and Skyrim does not equal everything Elder Scrolls.

Class system is needed to avoid cookie cutter builds and PVP.  Everyone would be using the same weapon, same powers, same race...everything to min/max.  For PvE and PvP.  The very fact that this is a Multiplayer game forces that issue.

They could of gone Lobby CO-OP like GW, but they didn't.  That doesn't discount the game from being an Elder Scrolls game.

 

  azarhal

Elite Member

Joined: 7/06/09
Posts: 576

12/05/13 8:38:36 AM#36
Originally posted by jdnyc
Originally posted by Celusios
Originally posted by jdnyc
Originally posted by Celusios
 

What if I want to be a healer who can use that cool pull technique they have showed in past videos for Dragonknights? I can't. That is a problem is it not in an Elder Scrolls game?

Your example would require picking Dragonknight as a class with some healing option in its skill line and the restoration staff. 

There's also other ways to gain active abilities outside of Class/Weapon/Armor.  There's the guilds, becoming a werewolf or a vampire as examples as well.  It is unknown whether those options will give you any healing.  Well I don't think that info is public knowledge yet at least.

 

Which is no doubt cool and all but I still think you're missing my point. This isn't like an Elder Scrolls game. You should of just picked your race then had to gain skills just like other Elder Scrolls games. This class system isn't needed.

This isn't Skyrim Online and Skyrim does not equal everything Elder Scrolls.

Class system is needed to avoid cookie cutter builds and PVP.  Everyone would be using the same weapon, same powers, same race...everything to min/max.  For PvE and PvP.  The very fact that this is a Multiplayer game forces that issue.

They could of gone Lobby CO-OP like GW, but they didn't.  That doesn't discount the game from being an Elder Scrolls game.

Class system doesn't stop the cookie cutter builds from existing, it just means that you will get 4 of them, but only if the class skills are worth something compared to the hundred of shared ones. Otherwise, you'll get one build with Sorcerers, Nightblades, Dragonknights and Templars all running around with the same flavor of the month for their specific task.

Also, the only TES games with restrictive classes was Arena, since Daggerfall you only select a named skill template that affect how fast you level up, it doesn't restrict what skill you can use or how powerful they can get. The TES games are effectively classless since Daggerfall, anyone saying otherwise just show he/she haven't played any of them.

  Iselin

The Listener

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 3778

12/05/13 9:19:29 AM#37
Originally posted by azarhal
Originally posted by jdnyc
Originally posted by Celusios
Originally posted by jdnyc
Originally posted by Celusios
 

What if I want to be a healer who can use that cool pull technique they have showed in past videos for Dragonknights? I can't. That is a problem is it not in an Elder Scrolls game?

Your example would require picking Dragonknight as a class with some healing option in its skill line and the restoration staff. 

There's also other ways to gain active abilities outside of Class/Weapon/Armor.  There's the guilds, becoming a werewolf or a vampire as examples as well.  It is unknown whether those options will give you any healing.  Well I don't think that info is public knowledge yet at least.

 

Which is no doubt cool and all but I still think you're missing my point. This isn't like an Elder Scrolls game. You should of just picked your race then had to gain skills just like other Elder Scrolls games. This class system isn't needed.

This isn't Skyrim Online and Skyrim does not equal everything Elder Scrolls.

Class system is needed to avoid cookie cutter builds and PVP.  Everyone would be using the same weapon, same powers, same race...everything to min/max.  For PvE and PvP.  The very fact that this is a Multiplayer game forces that issue.

They could of gone Lobby CO-OP like GW, but they didn't.  That doesn't discount the game from being an Elder Scrolls game.

Class system doesn't stop the cookie cutter builds from existing, it just means that you will get 4 of them, but only if the class skills are worth something compared to the hundred of shared ones. Otherwise, you'll get one build with Sorcerers, Nightblades, Dragonknights and Templars all running around with the same flavor of the month for their specific task.

Also, the only TES games with restrictive classes was Arena, since Daggerfall you only select a named skill template that affect how fast you level up, it doesn't restrict what skill you can use or how powerful they can get. The TES games are effectively classless since Daggerfall, anyone saying otherwise just show he/she haven't played any of them.

They're not classless. Classless means you can train everything and do everything. TSW is classless, TES games aren't because you have a finite number of skill points you use to choose what to train...and when you make those choices you thereby create your own half-baked (or good) class. And no, the infinite skill point mod hacks don't count.

The only real difference between make your own vs. ESO's pre-made + make your own hybrid is that with the later you have a safety-valve ready to use if you totally suck at making your own class. In a sense this whole debate is just a variant of 1337s vs. noobs.

  mmoguy43

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/31/09
Posts: 2300

12/05/13 9:32:47 AM#38
Can't play my pacifist character from Skyrim . I suppose murder is a requirement to play a MMORPG.

Let's build the ultimate MMO 1 feature at a time
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/398555/page/1

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15527

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

12/05/13 9:37:41 AM#39
Originally posted by Celusios
Originally posted by jdnyc
Originally posted by Celusios
 

What if I want to be a healer who can use that cool pull technique they have showed in past videos for Dragonknights? I can't. That is a problem is it not in an Elder Scrolls game?

Your example would require picking Dragonknight as a class with some healing option in its skill line and the restoration staff. 

There's also other ways to gain active abilities outside of Class/Weapon/Armor.  There's the guilds, becoming a werewolf or a vampire as examples as well.  It is unknown whether those options will give you any healing.  Well I don't think that info is public knowledge yet at least.

 

Which is no doubt cool and all but I still think you're missing my point. This isn't like an Elder Scrolls game. You should of just picked your race then had to gain skills just like other Elder Scrolls games. This class system isn't needed.

I really didn't expect it to be a like a TES game, as the inner workings of that system are a lot different than your typical skill based MMO. Especially if we're talking a game built around PVP. TES's system is balanced around some very simple combat mechanics. That works for it's type of game there's a lot less to account for.

They could have gone more like SWG with a profession system yet that still wouldn't net much of a TES style system. You'd still be locked into certain types of abilities based on your build limitations.

People have to keep in mind TES's system isn't really based on active skills it's based on stats, there are few abilities outside of the lines of magica. IF this were a true TES game there would be very little in the way active abilities for combat characters. I doubt that would sit well with MMO fans. Could you imagine, I don't even need a hotbar for combat, all I can do is lunge by pressing forward, spin by pressing a or d with simple mouse clicks?!?! Dumbed DOWN!!!!!!!!!! Hell many are not even fans of the limited bar as it is, they call that dumbed down.

 

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  baphamet

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/05/06
Posts: 2637

110100100

12/05/13 10:41:48 AM#40


Originally posted by mmoguy43
Can't play my pacifist character from Skyrim . I suppose murder is a requirement to play a MMORPG.

there are mmo's where you don't have to fight and can just be a crafter or diplomat, i don't think ESO is one of them however.

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