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News & Features Discussion  » [Column] General: Why No HD Remakes?

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83 posts found
  SnarlingWolf

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/09
Posts: 2728

11/22/13 2:37:50 PM#21

I think this author (sadly like a certain other author on here who tried to say making dungeons and Raids were the cheapest part of an MMO) is way out of touch with the reality of costs.

 

Overall art is now the most expensive aspect of game creation, much like movie special effects. The quality level people expect is time intensive and takes lots of artists lots of time to pull off. Taking a 14 year old MMO and making the entire world modern high resolution, high poly count models would cost easily 50-100 million dollars to do. Then the entire engine would have to be overhauled to be able to handle this new art, adding millions more.

 

After all that, the game is exactly the same as it was before and isn't truly something new, so you won't get that 2 million player rush that brand new games get upon launch. This means the company would likely never, ever make their investment back let alone make a profit.

 

So then people would ask for new servers to start fresh since heaven forbid they comeback to a game where others have outleveled them. More costs. Then they would ask for all of the modern conventions/features to be added in, more cost. In the end you will have spent the 100-300 million to make an entire new MMO (where naturally those who were still playing at the time before the revamp started would be mad that their game was "ruined" and likely stop playing) and it would leave the company asking "Why didn't we simply make an actual new MMO?"

 

 

Overall the main point is if you are the type of person who won't play an older game because *GASP* the graphics aren't as nice, then you aren't going to want to play and older game that has all the issues that older games do, but that now has nicer graphics.

  Tibernicuspa

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/03/13
Posts: 986

11/22/13 2:40:45 PM#22

There's a much MUCH larger issue here.

 

A big reason even veterans don't play those games anymore is because the core of what made them good is long gone.

If an HD remake came about, would it be the current live version of the game, but with better graphics? If so, I would NOT play.

I wouldn't play SWG, because we'd be playing the NGE version.

I wouldn't play DAoC, because that stopped being great in 2003.

I wouldn't play UO, because it barely resembles the game it used to be.

The only one I MIGHT play, is Asheron's Call.

  Razeekster

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 7/09/11
Posts: 1937

May the game be ever in your favor.

11/22/13 2:43:21 PM#23
Originally posted by Xiaoki

Probably because doing an HD remake of an old console single player game is much easier task than doing an HD remake of an MMO.


Consider the size of the game world to Zelda: Wind Waker then consider the size of the game world to Ever Quest 1.

Considering players themselves have made HD texture packs for MMOs like Mabinogi, that's not really an excuse.

Smile

  kb4blu

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/10/03
Posts: 673

11/22/13 2:43:38 PM#24

I would not like to see a remake of EQ1 with modern graphics.  To me its part of the charm.  Also graphics are overated IMHO.

Giving EQ1 a graphics update would be colorizing the first part of the Wizard of OZ.

 

  User Deleted
11/22/13 3:01:40 PM#25

There are a few reasons...

1.  Graphics and animations are some of the most expensive parts of game development, and for many of these old games, that's essentially what you'd have to gut and start over with.  Why do a remake at 80% of the cost of a new project entirely?

2.  Remaking a game in "HD" or whatever, doesn't really do much more than attract previous players back to it for a little while.  Newer players will still be put off by the dated mechanics and quirks.

 

What's worse is that both of those reasons sort of reinforce why the other is a bad idea for most setups.

  Tibernicuspa

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/03/13
Posts: 986

11/22/13 3:06:12 PM#26
Originally posted by asmkm22

There are a few reasons...

1.  Graphics and animations are some of the most expensive parts of game development, and for many of these old games, that's essentially what you'd have to gut and start over with.  Why do a remake at 80% of the cost of a new project entirely?

2.  Remaking a game in "HD" or whatever, doesn't really do much more than attract previous players back to it for a little while.  Newer players will still be put off by the dated mechanics and quirks.

 

What's worse is that both of those reasons sort of reinforce why the other is a bad idea for most setups.

The mechanics are generally the best part of older games.

  User Deleted
11/22/13 3:09:11 PM#27
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

I think this author (sadly like a certain other author on here who tried to say making dungeons and Raids were the cheapest part of an MMO) is way out of touch with the reality of costs.

 

 

Keep in mind that the "authors" they have for columns are generally not actual journalists or professionals.  They're just random gamers who, for whatever reason, are given space here to blog.

  Alders

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/28/10
Posts: 1730

I cannot fiddle but I can make a great state of a small city.

11/22/13 3:10:43 PM#28

You really can never go home again.

Part of what made those older MMO's great in the minds of the players that played them was the time in their lives that they played them.  You can't recreate the wonder, the newness, or the overall excitement of what might be possible because you already know.

Now, a new MMO with some old mechanics while getting rid of the terrible ones is a different story.

  User Deleted
11/22/13 3:13:19 PM#29
Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
Originally posted by asmkm22

There are a few reasons...

1.  Graphics and animations are some of the most expensive parts of game development, and for many of these old games, that's essentially what you'd have to gut and start over with.  Why do a remake at 80% of the cost of a new project entirely?

2.  Remaking a game in "HD" or whatever, doesn't really do much more than attract previous players back to it for a little while.  Newer players will still be put off by the dated mechanics and quirks.

 

What's worse is that both of those reasons sort of reinforce why the other is a bad idea for most setups.

The mechanics are generally the best part of older games.

And that would be an opinion that isn't shared many people.  Otherwise, they'd still be playing those older games.  EQ1 still gets regular expansions yet it's hardly a popular game.

Not many people want to return to the days of having to spawn camp a group of orcs for hours on end so they can level up and go spawn camp a group of higher level orcs.  The mechanics sucked, plain and simple.  They had some charm, like the Death Knight (or whatever it was called) that gave an XP penalty to the group for simply being there, but it mostly just sucked.

  Tibernicuspa

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/03/13
Posts: 986

11/22/13 3:22:45 PM#30
Originally posted by asmkm22
Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
Originally posted by asmkm22

There are a few reasons...

1.  Graphics and animations are some of the most expensive parts of game development, and for many of these old games, that's essentially what you'd have to gut and start over with.  Why do a remake at 80% of the cost of a new project entirely?

2.  Remaking a game in "HD" or whatever, doesn't really do much more than attract previous players back to it for a little while.  Newer players will still be put off by the dated mechanics and quirks.

 

What's worse is that both of those reasons sort of reinforce why the other is a bad idea for most setups.

The mechanics are generally the best part of older games.

And that would be an opinion that isn't shared many people.  Otherwise, they'd still be playing those older games.

And you are confirmed for not understanding golden age MMOs at all.

The biggest reason most of us aren't playing them anymore is because the CURRENT game mechanics do not remotely resemble the mechanics that were in place when we loved the game. See my post above, about how many people left DAoC, and SWG, and UO, after critical errors with mechanic changing.

 

"Not many people want to return to the days of having to spawn camp a group of orcs for hours on end so they can level up and go spawn camp a group of higher level orcs.  The mechanics sucked, plain and simple.  "

Out of the DOZENS of MMOs that existed before WoW, I can think of only two where this was ever a "mechanic". Stop pretending all pre WoW MMOs were as poorly designed as EverQuest, and leave the discussion of those games to people who actually played them.

  SnarlingWolf

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/09
Posts: 2728

11/22/13 3:28:18 PM#31
Originally posted by asmkm22
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

I think this author (sadly like a certain other author on here who tried to say making dungeons and Raids were the cheapest part of an MMO) is way out of touch with the reality of costs.

 

 

Keep in mind that the "authors" they have for columns are generally not actual journalists or professionals.  They're just random gamers who, for whatever reason, are given space here to blog.

I know, that was kind of the problem I was referring to. Recent articles have been written which are based around completely unsound, and at times utterly wrong, assumptions. Such articles should not be put up on the site at all.

 

They should educate, get more knowledgeable people, or simply not allow people without certain pieces of knowledge to write any article based around that piece of knowledge they do not have. Otherwise it just makes it all seem ridiculous.

  User Deleted
11/22/13 3:35:30 PM#32
Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
Originally posted by asmkm22
Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
Originally posted by asmkm22

There are a few reasons...

1.  Graphics and animations are some of the most expensive parts of game development, and for many of these old games, that's essentially what you'd have to gut and start over with.  Why do a remake at 80% of the cost of a new project entirely?

2.  Remaking a game in "HD" or whatever, doesn't really do much more than attract previous players back to it for a little while.  Newer players will still be put off by the dated mechanics and quirks.

 

What's worse is that both of those reasons sort of reinforce why the other is a bad idea for most setups.

The mechanics are generally the best part of older games.

And that would be an opinion that isn't shared many people.  Otherwise, they'd still be playing those older games.

And you are confirmed for not understanding golden age MMOs at all.

The biggest reason most of us aren't playing them anymore is because the CURRENT game mechanics do not remotely resemble the mechanics that were in place when we loved the game. See my post above, about how many people left DAoC, and SWG, and UO, after critical errors with mechanic changing.

 

You do realize those games didn't just randomly decide to change their mechanics right?  It was in response to having too many people leaving the games for newer stuff.  Just because YOU and your circle of friends were happy with things, doesn't mean everyone else was.

I was playing DAoC when WoW was released and saw first hand how, over the course of about 6 months, people switched games.  It was such a breath of fresh air to have such a well-designed quest system* that let you make progress without having to spend hours at a time.  You could do a few quests and log out feeling like you accomplished something.  People left because WoW's game mechanics were better.  It's actually funny to see  how all those MMO's from around 2002-2004 suddenly started bleeding subs, and had to change stuff in a hope at salvaging things.

Again, you don't have to agree with my personally.  But you can't argue the fact that mechanics changed for a reason.

*believe it or not, the way WoW put such an emphasis on quests was kind of revolutionary back then, and one of the single biggest reason for it's success.

  User Deleted
11/22/13 3:39:12 PM#33
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf
Originally posted by asmkm22
Originally posted by SnarlingWolf

I think this author (sadly like a certain other author on here who tried to say making dungeons and Raids were the cheapest part of an MMO) is way out of touch with the reality of costs.

 

 

Keep in mind that the "authors" they have for columns are generally not actual journalists or professionals.  They're just random gamers who, for whatever reason, are given space here to blog.

I know, that was kind of the problem I was referring to. Recent articles have been written which are based around completely unsound, and at times utterly wrong, assumptions. Such articles should not be put up on the site at all.

 

They should educate, get more knowledgeable people, or simply not allow people without certain pieces of knowledge to write any article based around that piece of knowledge they do not have. Otherwise it just makes it all seem ridiculous.

I just sort of got used to it around here.  It was like that with Pokket's weekly thing, where I swear the only reason she was allowed to write articles or get involved in the industry was because they need to fill the "cute gamer chick" slot.  Her articles all sounded like introductions to actual articles, until you realize that's literally all she had to say.

  Tibernicuspa

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/03/13
Posts: 986

11/22/13 3:41:51 PM#34
Originally posted by asmkm22
Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
Originally posted by asmkm22
Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
Originally posted by asmkm22

There are a few reasons...

1.  Graphics and animations are some of the most expensive parts of game development, and for many of these old games, that's essentially what you'd have to gut and start over with.  Why do a remake at 80% of the cost of a new project entirely?

2.  Remaking a game in "HD" or whatever, doesn't really do much more than attract previous players back to it for a little while.  Newer players will still be put off by the dated mechanics and quirks.

 

What's worse is that both of those reasons sort of reinforce why the other is a bad idea for most setups.

The mechanics are generally the best part of older games.

And that would be an opinion that isn't shared many people.  Otherwise, they'd still be playing those older games.

And you are confirmed for not understanding golden age MMOs at all.

The biggest reason most of us aren't playing them anymore is because the CURRENT game mechanics do not remotely resemble the mechanics that were in place when we loved the game. See my post above, about how many people left DAoC, and SWG, and UO, after critical errors with mechanic changing.

 

You do realize those games didn't just randomly decide to change their mechanics right?  It was in response to having too many people leaving the games for newer stuff. Not really. DAoC's population didn't drop like a rock because of WoW, it dropped because of two bad expansions in a row, expansions that were completely unrelated to WoW. In fact when WoW came out, most of my guildies tried it and came back saying it was nothing new.

I was playing DAoC when WoW was released and saw first hand how, over the course of about 6 months, people switched games.  It was such a breath of fresh air to have such a well-designed quest system*

  People left because WoW's game mechanics were better. If you check the launch date of WoW against other MMOs subscribers, you'll see that this is almost entirely bullshit. Most of WoW's playerbase came from people who never played MMOs, not veterans. WoW's mechanics were almost identical to other MMOs at the time, mostly EQ, but easier and shallower. People left their old MMOs when the dev teams tried to make their games more casual, and drove out their core players. Instead of trying to get their core players back, they just moved on to a bigger budget project.  It's actually funny to see  how all those MMO's from around 2002-2004 suddenly started bleeding subs, and had to change stuff in a hope at salvaging things. They bled because they changed, not the other way around.

 

  Solar_Prophet

Elite Member

Joined: 11/10/13
Posts: 679

WAAAGH!

11/22/13 3:54:25 PM#35

I would ditch my current game(s) in a heartbeat if they'd give Asheron's Call an HD graphics makeover, combined with a UI that doesn't suck.

No, seriously. The graphics don't bother me nearly as much as the horrible UI. I can't believe I ever played & enjoyed the game like that. I guess modern MMOs have spoiled me in that regard.

MMORPG's are thriving. There are hundreds available today, with different settings, mechanics, and even payment models to suit anyone's gaming needs. If you can't find one to call your own, then the problem isn't the genre... it's YOU.

  Kaelaan21

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/31/07
Posts: 344

11/22/13 3:59:31 PM#36

There are three games that come to mind that have already done this that I have played in the past. I find it ironic, that one of them, DAoC was in the article.

 

DAoC has already had an engine/texture update. No, it wasn't HD, but then again - back then there was no "HD" buzzword floating around. The texture updates were nice, but this is a prime example of just updating graphics will not save an already dying or dead game. The core game itself only seemed to cater to cliche of it's current player base. And that's exactly what they ended up with. A small group of die hard fans, that really enjoy the game and that's it.

 

UO - the remake that should up the sandbox client. The Third Dawn client that eventually was scrapped and remade multiple times under different names. It was never truly and fully accepted by the community because it altered the perception of a semi-bustling sandbox environment. Most people continued to use the 2D client as the 3D client was always optional in each of it's iterations.

 

Eve Online - the entire engine has been overhauled at least twice. The UI was completely redesigned under the hood for performance reasons. The UI presentation is also continually tweaked to grow with the needs of the current player base. The textures and model designs are continually updated to take advantage of the current engine and allow more detail without taking away from the original concept of the ship. So far, this is the only game that I have played that has been very successful with overhauling the graphics (and sound too).

 

I think the big reason is that the market has already shown that "if you build it (or update it)" it doesn't necessarily mean the audience will come. The other thing to keep in mind that most games we used to play, did not evolve their core mechanics along with the expectations of the current market. Sure, some games, such as UO, evolved their content to match more current games such as items similar to that found in WoW. But, the core game mechanics are kind of archaic.

 

Whether you enjoy the more casual MMOs or the more complex MMOs, I don't want to remember slash commands to manage my guild (like DAoC). I don't want limited action sets due to only one type of interaction on an object (UO, each object pretty much only has one way to use it when used directly). It may sound simple to add a GUI to DAoC to execute the slash commands, but the entire game may need to be rewritten to allow modular changes.

  blbeta

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/18/04
Posts: 77

11/22/13 4:07:52 PM#37
Originally posted by Solar_Prophet

I would ditch my current game(s) in a heartbeat if they'd give Asheron's Call an HD graphics makeover, combined with a UI that doesn't suck.

No, seriously. The graphics don't bother me nearly as much as the horrible UI. I can't believe I ever played & enjoyed the game like that. I guess modern MMOs have spoiled me in that regard.

Don't know when last you played, but this past summer they remade the UI.  I have not played so I don't know if it is any good.

June was first release of it I think

https://www.asheronscall.com/en/content/2013-events

 

 
  Tuchaka

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/14/10
Posts: 460

11/22/13 4:09:02 PM#38
virtually every graphics overhaul i have seen was sorta meh if you already liked the game and were playing it was nice but if you had stopped a long time ago snoozers.....except for Eve online there's really did seem like a legit upgrade. Now if we are talking total remake that's another story
  donpopuki

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/06/12
Posts: 599

11/22/13 4:17:09 PM#39
The HD remake of Zelda:Wind Waker mostly involved adding shadows, increasing the output resolution and other minor upgrades. It wasn't a total overhaul of the underlying graphics which is what a game like EQ needs.
  Governator

Novice Member

Joined: 11/20/06
Posts: 7

11/22/13 4:22:33 PM#40
Originally posted by Rusque
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by Kyleran

Help us old/less hip gamers out here, I had to Google "HD remake" to even know what this was talking about.

Was it that difficult to put High Definition in the opening paragraph before using the abbreviation?

 

w...t...f

What? I've never seen that expression before, ever, anywhere, so had no frame of reference.

Never assume your audience knows what a specific abbreviation means, first rule of proper reporting at my firm.

This is impossible. I literally don't know a single person (regardless of age) who doesn't know what HD is. Everything is HD these days, mobile phone screens, movies, TV, video games, youtube . . . just literally anything that has a display has gone HD.

They're currently moving to Ultra HD (UHD)  just FYI. I mean, are you using a CRT monitor from the 90''s to browse MMORPG.com? I'm going to be confused for the rest of the day because of this, I just can't fathom it. Not even a little.

You don't have to be rude about it.  Not everyone knows every tech related acronym.  Further more, it is common practice (and required in APA writing, for example) to include full spelled out names with abbreviation and then just use the abbreviation throughout the rest of the peace.  (High Definition (HD))

 

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