Killing unthinking, stupid monsters over and over and over again is not my idea of fun.
I need more challenge, I need to fight thinking, strategic opponents. Enemies that feel
emotion when I kill them and the thrill of battle. I need to walk around knowing I could be
attacked at any moment, or someone might be setting a trap for me. Given, PvP easily gets
out of hand. UO, perfect example. Nevertheless, many people will tell you UO is one of the
funnest and still regard it as one of the best mmorpgs of all time. Monsters simply don't do
it for me. In your experience as MMORPGers, if you like PvP, who do you think has the
best system of allowing PvP without it turning into a mockery?

Personally, I think Lineage2 is on the right track, but they don't have it right yet.
Their system is basically like this, if you hit someone, you turn pink, if that person hits you
back, they turn pink. If a pink kills a pink no harm done, you gain no 'Karma.' However if
you hit someone and they try to run, say some guy is trying to kill a newbie and he runs
immediately, since he did not hit the person back he won't turn pink and stays white, and if
you kill a white guy you turn red and get a bunch of Karma. You can work off the red by
killing a bunch of monsters to reduce your karma (or by dying a couple times.) This system
basically assures that if some guy is trying to be an asshole and kills someone that doesn't
want it, he gets punished for it, but if you attack someone and they decide to fight back
noone gets punished. The problem with their system is that people don't stay pink long
enough, so say you hit someone and they turn pink, then as their fighting strategy they
decide to run around and try to range you with a bow, they might turn white again in that
period it takes you to get to them, thus even though both people are fighting one person
may have turned white just before you kill them. Another aspect about it is I feel that red
people are punished too harshly. If people see a red person they will attack them or gang
up on them because you won't gain any karma by killing a red person, and I'm fine with that-
It's like killing a wanted criminal or something. However, if you're red you can't get into
any towns as the gaurds will slaughter you, personally I think just being hunted by players
is good enough.

I think lin2 is on the right track here, however, I also feel that once awhile jumping an
innocent person can be very fun and add an element of danger to the gamer as well.
You're travelling along a road and out jumps a brigand (PK) and kills you for your money,
equipment, whatever. Sure, it's a pain, but it alsp adds to the atmosphere, the realization
you're living in a world where death is around every corner and not everyone is nice.
The lin2 system is more of a 'punishment only' system.

Well anyways now that I've layed that system on the table for anyone that didn't know
about it, I would like to here if people have thoughts on PvP systems that would work
without turning into a massacre like UO. Where PvP is fun and a part of the game, but
not some kind of complete slaughter. In other words, you could play an 'evil' character
if you so choose, but you wouldn't just be walking around killing people, you would kill
someone every once in awhile, you would have to think about how you were going to
do it, and about the penalties of it and perhaps evading them.

Thoughts, please!

ok, for me, I don't like pvp.  I understand your reasons, however I find that it just makes people mad...including myself.  For example, while playing Lin2...I was fighting in a certain area, and another guy was there also.  He was higher lvl than me and because I was killing some of the stuff there, and he wanted them all...he just kills me.  Sorry, this isn't fun or what pvp was meant to be, but more often than not, this is what it is.

So unless they (devs) have a way to make it so that pvp works, I will not like it till then

Heden
__________________________________________
***Just agree with me and we will get along fine***
Fun and FREE Text game to pass time
EverWars

Ewww I am known for very long post but man trying and use paragraphs and space the words.

It is very hard understanding the post in the form you presented it.

Well first let me say killing AI monsters gets boring.Killing PC characters gets boring too.

My idea of a MMRPG is a diverse one which has a lot to offer.Killing very hard monsters that requires a lot of co operation and team work is one.

Well laid out and rewarding quests is another.

A big beautiful  world is another.

Player impact on the environment  and game itself is another.

And yes good fun PvPing.Though I have to say mindless no goal PvP is boring and stupid.Old UO PvP had no other meaning but for people to bully young players in a chain of death  and loot hard earned money because this people were too lazy to find their own.So it attracted the worst sort.

If a game is full PvP and pays little attention to the environment and quest sector like shadowbane I am noy intrested at all.I have a lot of FPS which I can log in and kill other players for free.So see little reason to pay for it.

The key word is dynamic world  which has to be a good mix of PvE and PvP(and the PvP must have more sense then just to loot ).

Maybe thats why I took to DAoC so well because the PvP had a reason to it and since looting was not permitted it eliminated the "I ruxor you noob" aspect.

However DAoC also suffered from a half attempt at the PvE aspect and the implication of one warring faction winning was very little if felt at all making the PvP in end boring.

Hopefully a game would come out that actually gives a more signifcant impact on the environment from orgainsed PvP and mix in a good PvE.

Dragons empires says they are going to do this but as we all know never take the word of a developer .

I love PvP, it absolutely needed.

What do you do when some jerk calls your mother something unpleasant then sits on your camp of uber_rare_spawn_mob01 ?

PvP gives you a means to police yourself. It's shocking to my how people hate PvP because of 1 bad experience, but ignore PvE bad experiences. I guess it's a issue of how much to like false security?

PvP happens in all games even games like EQ. Have you even been deliberately trained (PvP)? Ever have some annul your charmed mob? (pvp) Ever have someone KS you, or steal your camp? (pvp) The only difference is in EQ you have NO MEANS to defend yourself. You must take it.

In PvP game, you can defend yourself. People get so used to PvE I swear they think they have take dieing to a player the same they do to a Mob. You don't. If can get back at them with a vengeance, and if you can't you can ask for help. Greifers are generally known, so getting help isn't hard.

The trick with PvP is a system that allows people to police themselves but hurts griefers. I think Shadow Bane has a done a pretty good job that.

You need to keep greifers out of the newbie zones. A side from that anything goes. You know a game has good PvP rules when PKing seldom happens.

I could go on, but there's little need. PvP has a bad reputation from years of bad implementation. It will take a long time to over come that.

Read here on how make a good MMRPG.
http://www.brandeis.edu/pubs/jove/HTML/v1/bartle.html

Find your type.
http://www.andreasen.org/bartle/test.cgi

Clever_glove (90% A, 60% K, 50% E, 3% S)

I agree Lineage2 pretty much has it right in dealing with pvp, though people should stay pink longer. As for the guards I think it's realistic that they hunt down red people in the cities. Why would its citizens want a criminal in their city? Especially when low lvls are there. In fact I think they should have guards running around.

However they should have lands of progressively lower security lvls. To a point where there are no guards in a town.
This way higher lvls don't find it soo easy to kill lower lvls.

And I think they should implement what EVE-online deals with pkers. A bounty system. This would deal with people pking crafting characters. I don't really see them as being capable of protecting themselves. Assuming they would earn lots of money, they could just put a bounty on pker's asses.

---

Originally posted by Clever_Glove

I love PvP, it absolutely needed.

---

Sorry, but obviously it isn't absolutley needed....Horizons doesn't have it :)

Now if you say "it is absolutely needed for me to play" then that is valid.

Sorry, not trying to be rude....but alot of people tend to think (on both sides of coin) that if they like or don't like something, that everyone should feel the same way...Not true.

Heden
__________________________________________
***Just agree with me and we will get along fine***
Fun and FREE Text game to pass time
EverWars

---

Originally posted by j3kki
As for the guards I think it's realistic that they hunt down red people in the cities. Why would its citizens want a criminal in their city? Especially when low lvls are there. In fact I think they should have guards running around.

However they should have lands of progressively lower security lvls. To a point where there are no guards in a town.
This way higher lvls don't find it soo easy to kill lower lvls.

---

Gaurds attacking criminals is pretty cool in itself, but in lin2 if you can't get in the towns you basically can't play the game, you gotta get it to upgrade your skills and buy new gear and get quests, so they effectively take PK'rs out the game by having the gaurds attack red people

They could really use a rogue city with no gaurds, it could be like a hang out for outcasts (red PKs), a place where they could upgrade their skills and such

PvP is something some like some don't  some are indifferent some want a mix of it.

Luckily I am one that is basically indifferent to it and just look at how good the game is as a whole.

I seen way too many people waiting since 2000 when UO outlawed PvP in the new worlds  for the next "messiah" game.

Seems sad though to be surfing around for 4 years looking for "that" game rather then enjoy themselves somewhere.

---

Originally posted by Uifz
Why are we always discussing this topic on "PVP" its been discuss many times just stop posting about it. And we don't care if your not going to play it if its not PVP. Now get off this topic im sick of reading the same crap.

---

lol.. this just cracks me up.  As if you are being FORCED to read this thread.  Here's an idea. (Just a shot in the dark).  If you start reading a thread and notice it's based on a topic you don't want to read because you feel it's been discussed too much (And in most cases you can even tell that from the thread title), then move on and read/post somewhere else.  It's as simple as that!

;) Just trying to help,

-Spacecon

good for you. well said.

not enough options

me im happy in games like EVE and DAOC that have some sort of restriction on PVP based on where you are in the world, both GvG and 3+ faction systems work for me.

I'm not a fan of these PVE games where PVP is just minigames or lazy flick a switch "PVP" servers

necro is bad mmkay

Originally posted by erinys

good for you. well said.

Why must you erect the dead?

wow, a 9 and half year old necro

Originally posted by DJJazzy

wow, a 9 and half year old necro

Yeah, it must be some kind of record here. :)

I just wish he necroed up something about how Wow never would sell anything instead since it just was a bad EQ copy.

pvp everywhere does not make sense, because you scare the hell out of all the pve-minded people. and thats fully ok. on the other side, PVP-players do need the PVE people. they need them, because without them their game becomes deserted soon. their player driven economy needs them and also do they need them to recruit new pvp-players. yes, a lot of pve-players are doing pvp from time to time or later in game.

look at EVE they do it right, or at least close to. you need a huge area for pve, where PK is not attractive or even better fully forbidden. if Darkfall would have 2 continents of its current size, one for pve only and a 2nd for open territorial pvp (and if they would get rid of their bot-friendly skillsystem), i would play it. 

what we need is not different servers and different games or arenas and such crap, we need a peaceful co-existence of pvp and pve in one damn game. and yes, peaceful sounds weird for us pvp guys. ;)

give these pve guys huge biotops, not just starter cities. heck, give them 2/3 of the game. but connect them via a player-driven economy to the pvp-guys. of course that would harm the pve-loot. it has to be different in a player-driven economy. but this is what they have to accept, if they like such a game.

If it is full PvP, i am not playing it.

You vote with your wallet. I will vote with mine.

Originally posted by Heden

ok, for me, I don't like pvp.  I understand your reasons, however I find that it just makes people mad...including myself.  For example, while playing Lin2...I was fighting in a certain area, and another guy was there also.  He was higher lvl than me and because I was killing some of the stuff there, and he wanted them all...he just kills me.  Sorry, this isn't fun or what pvp was meant to be, but more often than not, this is what it is.

So unless they (devs) have a way to make it so that pvp works, I will not like it till the

Ironically the OP says he wants "thinking" yet there's obviously no thinking involve for either player in the situation you described.  One player just hit a button and instagibbed the other.  Same goes for zerging; there's no thought or tactics to it, it's terrible PVP.

Really if the OP truly wants "thinking" he needs to switch genres to real PVP genres (MOBA, Fighting, RTS, FPS, etc)  That's where tactics, strategy, and twitch are the sole factors to winning.