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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » We got a MMO that tries to make the world living and still people complain It's not alive enough

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163 posts found
  Gardavsshade

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/27/11
Posts: 591

11/05/13 2:29:45 PM#121

Guild Wars 2 is a great game in a lot of ways, and it's Virtual World is absolutely beautiful and fantastic... and yes it feels to me like a living world OP.

But the Devs of GW2 decided to try to eliminate a need for the full mmo trinity of roles in GW2, but all that did for me was make me want the trinity more. Now they came close to the trinity... they got tanks... sort of.... and they definitely got CrowdControl Types.... but without  true Healers I find the game is missing a role I enjoy and after a while I just stopped playing because of not being able to run a character of that role.... the more I play the more I miss having a Healer role class character, which is impossible in GW2. I don't care what they say.... none of the classes in GW2 can function as true Healers, no matter how they set up their characters.

Now reason number two... I felt from day one that Anet ignored WvWvW... and if they didn't actually ignore it, then it's seems to me they don't understand the concept much at all. The more they try to fix things in WvWvW the more they F stuff up. A great dream, but if the Devs can't pull it off, it comes off as a big disappointment.

Those are my two huge gigantic reasons why I no longer play GW2. I did have fun some and I do think I got my money's worth barely, but for me it's not the MMO I was looking for.


Nothing to see here... just another MMO Ghost....

  Gardavsshade

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/27/11
Posts: 591

11/05/13 2:38:21 PM#122
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by SavageHorizon
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by SavageHorizon

Lol, Ryzom's Atys is a living world not GW2's static sorry attempt.

Read what a living mmo world should be like http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/katriell/052009/3746_How-Ryzom-creates-the-sense-of-a-living-world

GW2 a living world, don't make me laugh.

This is true, yet no one wants to play their game. Also, I'm not sure what makes a living world in a themepark will be the same thing that makes one in a sandbox.

Ryzom has a loyal and fun community, you don't have to have millions playing your mmo to make it fun. Sandbox or themepark is neither here nor there, fact is Tyria is not a living world and doesn't even come close.

Makes me smile how you have to admit it's true and then go off on a rant about something completely different, it's like you are trying to save face for the OP and GW2 lol.

So yes i can laugh when the faithful suggest that the devs have made a living world.

GW2 has a loyal and fun community. Having millions of fans playing your game doesn't negate that. Since sandbox or themepark is neither here nor there, then we can apply that to the rest of Ryzom. The game isn't fun or engaging no matter how "living" the world is.

It makes me smile that you think having a few systems in place that create a more dynamic world than Tyria somehow makes the game better. ANet can improve their world. Ryzom has failed to improve the game and make it interesting to all but a couple thousand people.

ANet has surely not hit the mark on what makes a truly dynamic world, but many people agree they have hit the mark on creating an engaging and immersive game. I never said ANet made a living world. I said they're  making great progress at doing so in the game environment they've created.

So I can laugh at your feeble attempts to make Ryzom relevant. It will never be so after so many failed attempts. They just don't get it. Living world is cool, but that isn't what makes a game.

and what you don't seem to understand is this: Some of us do not play MMOs for their "game". We play them for their "living world", aka virtual World, environment, etc.

I can get better gameplay in a Console Game if I really was concerned about that. I play MMOs for their ingame world, their persistent world, I play them to also share that ingame world with other Players. The "Game" is just what we do while in the "world".

To me the "Living World" is more important than the "Game". To me if the "Living World" of a MMO is garbage (too shallow, too many walls, too instanced) than that MMO might as well not exist at all.


Nothing to see here... just another MMO Ghost....

  stevebombsquad

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/20/13
Posts: 531

11/05/13 3:10:52 PM#123
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by SavageHorizon
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by SavageHorizon

Lol, Ryzom's Atys is a living world not GW2's static sorry attempt.

Read what a living mmo world should be like http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/katriell/052009/3746_How-Ryzom-creates-the-sense-of-a-living-world

GW2 a living world, don't make me laugh.

This is true, yet no one wants to play their game. Also, I'm not sure what makes a living world in a themepark will be the same thing that makes one in a sandbox.

Ryzom has a loyal and fun community, you don't have to have millions playing your mmo to make it fun. Sandbox or themepark is neither here nor there, fact is Tyria is not a living world and doesn't even come close.

Makes me smile how you have to admit it's true and then go off on a rant about something completely different, it's like you are trying to save face for the OP and GW2 lol.

So yes i can laugh when the faithful suggest that the devs have made a living world.

GW2 has a loyal and fun community. Having millions of fans playing your game doesn't negate that. Since sandbox or themepark is neither here nor there, then we can apply that to the rest of Ryzom. The game isn't fun or engaging no matter how "living" the world is.

It makes me smile that you think having a few systems in place that create a more dynamic world than Tyria somehow makes the game better. ANet can improve their world. Ryzom has failed to improve the game and make it interesting to all but a couple thousand people.

ANet has surely not hit the mark on what makes a truly dynamic world, but many people agree they have hit the mark on creating an engaging and immersive game. I never said ANet made a living world. I said they're  making great progress at doing so in the game environment they've created.

So I can laugh at your feeble attempts to make Ryzom relevant. It will never be so after so many failed attempts. They just don't get it. Living world is cool, but that isn't what makes a game.

Who says they have millions of people playing? Have they released numbers?

James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?

  aRtFuLThinG

Novice Member

Joined: 4/30/09
Posts: 1000

11/05/13 4:14:54 PM#124

I think over the years old school MMOers has come to define "living world" as:

- Having player run towns and housing

- Having player run vendors

- Having the dynamics of economy dictated by player crafted items, NOT by looted items

- Having dynamic resources that changes in quality/cycle over time

- Having true day and night cycles

 

Event, while funs, is not necessary "living world" per se. It is more like "lively"

 

"Lively" and "Living world" are not the same thing. Living world is about social simulation aspect, whereas "lively" means it is robust and has a decent size player population and has stuff to do.

  caetftl

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/29/12
Posts: 279

11/05/13 4:40:54 PM#125
Originally posted by stevebombsquad
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by SavageHorizon
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by SavageHorizon

Lol, Ryzom's Atys is a living world not GW2's static sorry attempt.

Read what a living mmo world should be like http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/katriell/052009/3746_How-Ryzom-creates-the-sense-of-a-living-world

GW2 a living world, don't make me laugh.

This is true, yet no one wants to play their game. Also, I'm not sure what makes a living world in a themepark will be the same thing that makes one in a sandbox.

Ryzom has a loyal and fun community, you don't have to have millions playing your mmo to make it fun. Sandbox or themepark is neither here nor there, fact is Tyria is not a living world and doesn't even come close.

Makes me smile how you have to admit it's true and then go off on a rant about something completely different, it's like you are trying to save face for the OP and GW2 lol.

So yes i can laugh when the faithful suggest that the devs have made a living world.

GW2 has a loyal and fun community. Having millions of fans playing your game doesn't negate that. Since sandbox or themepark is neither here nor there, then we can apply that to the rest of Ryzom. The game isn't fun or engaging no matter how "living" the world is.

It makes me smile that you think having a few systems in place that create a more dynamic world than Tyria somehow makes the game better. ANet can improve their world. Ryzom has failed to improve the game and make it interesting to all but a couple thousand people.

ANet has surely not hit the mark on what makes a truly dynamic world, but many people agree they have hit the mark on creating an engaging and immersive game. I never said ANet made a living world. I said they're  making great progress at doing so in the game environment they've created.

So I can laugh at your feeble attempts to make Ryzom relevant. It will never be so after so many failed attempts. They just don't get it. Living world is cool, but that isn't what makes a game.

Who says they have millions of people playing? Have they released numbers?

2.5 million logins a week worldwide, that is indicative of NOT having millions of players.  Anyway the earnings report for last quarter will be out soon, we will get a good idea of how gw2 is faring, and then we will have to deal with the foibles of the more passionate fans. 

  laokoko

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/14/09
Posts: 1845

11/05/13 6:00:05 PM#126

^ It's not you again.  Samsung was fined for bribing forum developer or ghost writer to bash their competitor, you look like one of those person more and more.

Make me think about some of the positive forum poster too.  When someone questioned Anet numbers, this person out of no where post a blog about some Anet person saying the numbers went up.  If it really went up Anet wont' hasitate to say it on every forum.

  GreenKnight1776

Novice Member

Joined: 1/25/11
Posts: 61

11/05/13 8:20:31 PM#127
Originally posted by Torvaldr

 

People say they want that stuff but they don't. Doesn't Ryzom and a few other more sandbox oriented games offer limited resources and extinction of species? If people truly wanted those things those games would be packed.

I don't think GW2 really fully delivered, at least not to the expectation of the general gamer populace, but they made some great steps in the right direction, whereas other recently released games like FFXIV have shown that people really do want regurgitated mechanics in a new skin.

There's a current thread here called something like "I think it's over" where embittered players complain about current design and want nothing more than original mechanics with severe penalties. They don't want gaming evolution, yet they complain that games are all being made the same since WoW. That tells me players aren't as sure what they really want. They know what feeling they want to derive from the experience, but I don't think they really know what will deliver that.

Originally posted by bcbully
Hook line and sinker. They sure hit their target demographic right between the eyes. They even give their demographic talking points complete with buzz words.

As opposed to sitting in a virtual cave for 6 months to level skills "offline" so a definite advantage, not related to skill at all, can be had over others? I think ArenaNet is pursuing the better path even if they haven't hit the mark.

 

I understand disappointment that ANet hasn't delivered on the full potential or that the attempts don't satisfy some. I don't understand given the static options and no attempt what-so-ever to improve on this by other companies how people can throw stones at the direction. They're making more progress in this area than most every other game developer, especially in the AAA arena.

 

+1

I've been wondering about this theory for a while. Player behavior (at least what I've often observed on forums) would seem to support the idea of "they know what feeling they want from the experience, but (I) don't think they really know what will deliver that." (Yes, I used quotations to show this is from the post above.)

I think these players are kind of caught in what I call "Star Trek Holodeck Syndrome." I think they are ready to move on past what our technology can do and get that true "immersion" that probably only something like a holodeck can provide. Otherwise, I would say that no game, even one of the upcoming fabled sandboxes is going to please the "We Want 1999 Again But We Want Another Version Of It" crowd.

So more on topic: I think GW2 at least has tried to move things forward with what it did. I still enjoy the world and yes, there is a TON of lore there to add to the "living world" feeling but you have to pay attention to detail and explore. IMO.

  iridescence

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 943

11/05/13 10:50:03 PM#128
Originally posted by didjerama
 

No, you expected "holodeck" experience. Once you relize everything in MMO needs to be programmed and scripted to work in predictable fashion. Pretty much any attempt to artificially overcome this resulted in....crap...to put it mildly. Events reset, they go back and forth and until devs change it it will be so, theres no mysterious force (nor ANet promised one) that will magically change this.

Yes, but you can do programming and scripting with algorithms that are complex enough so it won't be obvious to the player. Even if they had had more DE scripts and made each one fire less often it would have been much better.  Having the events on a short cool down timer was the laziest and most unimmersive way the could have done it, especially when a lot of them are supposed to be "heroic deeds" which wouldn't logically keep repeating like that.

None of this requires anything close to "holodeck" level AI. Hell even Rift, an older game, manages to make it so there are many different types of rifts that can spawn and it takes a very long time of staying in the same zone to see every possible one.

 

 

  Sleepyfish

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/25/09
Posts: 314

11/06/13 12:03:00 AM#129

The core of what makes GW2 not work is that it in trying to do things in a different way instead tears apart core online game elements consistent since the time of text based online games. I was thinking about this myself the other day and the problem is GW2 is not a persistent world at all. In trying to create a game where actions matter instead you just have a game that resets events every few minutes and that each part of the game has no bearing on the other. You instead end up feeling like you are playing a series of mini games and that your character is not really important. All you really have with GW2 is a themepark that does questing in the form of events but people do them the same way the quest just hang around and wait for it to repop. On top of that it segregates pvp into basically mini games so as not to bother the pve questers which is far from being a "living" world. On top of the horrible skill system and AOE spam that just makes things worse. 

There is no such thing as a "living world" and themepark existing in the same place at the same time. Even as theme parks go  GW2 has a lack of interesting maps, mostly 2d feeling with lots of invis walls. The only way to do a proper event based world is to have in game GMs run events no just repop scripted monsters every couple of minutes and even that is not enough to make a game worth playing. EVE is a living world, or maybe Ryzom but this is just a very PG13 themepark. 

  User Deleted
11/06/13 2:47:26 AM#130
Originally posted by iridescence
Originally posted by didjerama
 

No, you expected "holodeck" experience. Once you relize everything in MMO needs to be programmed and scripted to work in predictable fashion. Pretty much any attempt to artificially overcome this resulted in....crap...to put it mildly. Events reset, they go back and forth and until devs change it it will be so, theres no mysterious force (nor ANet promised one) that will magically change this.

Yes, but you can do programming and scripting with algorithms that are complex enough so it won't be obvious to the player. Even if they had had more DE scripts and made each one fire less often it would have been much better.  Having the events on a short cool down timer was the laziest and most unimmersive way the could have done it, especially when a lot of them are supposed to be "heroic deeds" which wouldn't logically keep repeating like that.

None of this requires anything close to "holodeck" level AI. Hell even Rift, an older game, manages to make it so there are many different types of rifts that can spawn and it takes a very long time of staying in the same zone to see every possible one.

 

 

lol @ Rift. Whenever someone mentiones Rift it pretty much invalidates and other point they were trying to make.

Go play Rift and its Rifts. It took and hour or 2 in zone to see em all. Spawned as regular as English train. Its really HARD to miss any of them while leveling, and i missed crapton of events in GW2. Probably if i went back now i would find quite i few i still missed (and i have 5 80-ies)

I still remember back in RIfts open beta when i first got to experience Rifts "Rifts". I just said "if this is the thing that is supposed to keep people playing they are in a big big big trouble". Rest is history.

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2393

There... are... four... lights!

11/09/13 11:04:53 AM#131
Originally posted by jpnz

According to most of the pro-GW2 poster's logic in game design, WoW phasing would qualify it to be a 'living world'.

Absolutely not, and I play both games. WoW's phasing only goes so far, and once the story line is done, the world becomes 100% static.

Which means WoW had the 'living world' MMO in the market quicker than GW2 did.

A "living world" permanently changes, and is not just about going through a story line once and then being back to a static world. In WoW, you always know exactly how a specific spot of the world is like depending on your progression through the local quest line(s), and once done, nothing will ever change again. In GW2, you never know in what state you're going to find any part of the world, which also changes even when you're not there or even not online at all. That's the big difference, making it apples and oranges.

I don't think some posters thought this through....

I don't think you thought this through...

Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  Xthos

Elite Member

Joined: 4/18/10
Posts: 2560

11/09/13 11:08:10 AM#132

Personally, it felt cluttered, and the classes felt bland to me.  Shortest I have ever played anything I have bought.  Its b2p, so if I ever feel like giving it another go, I can I guess.

 

  TalulaRose

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/27/12
Posts: 407

11/09/13 11:10:52 AM#133
On the bright side they are adding a lot of pve to WvW....................
  Jasper300

Novice Member

Joined: 6/01/13
Posts: 47

11/09/13 11:19:11 AM#134

GW2 definitely "feels" more alive than other games but personally I feel like the leveling experience is like a solo campaign.

I don't feel like other people want to party up and quest/explore together

  Jasper300

Novice Member

Joined: 6/01/13
Posts: 47

11/09/13 11:19:52 AM#135
Originally posted by Xthos

Personally, it felt cluttered, and the classes felt bland to me.  Shortest I have ever played anything I have bought.  Its b2p, so if I ever feel like giving it another go, I can I guess.

 

I completely agree with you Xthos

  Volkon

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/14/10
Posts: 3804

Facts do not require fiction for balance.

11/12/13 7:10:39 AM#136

Well, as I see it they've delivered pretty close to what was promised initially and they're improving nicely on that as time goes by. Yes, it's true they had to add hearts to the game because people were so conditioned by the quest hub system from other games that they would wander around GW2 and not get involved in dynamic events because they "didnt' have the quest for that". At least they've chosen to not add any new hearts, even to new zones, now that people have had time to remove the archaic conditioning from other MMOs. But with DEs you get exactly what was promised... a world you can help change in little ways as you go through. Any DE you complete (or fail) remains in that completed or failed state until something else happens to push the state further in either direction. If centaurs take over a town it stays taken over until the players clear it. It doesn't reset to a non-taken over state on it's own. This is what was promised and delivered. 

 

Living Story is a whole different thing. It's their means of introducing new content to the game in two week cycles instead of the old wait many months for an expansion model. Initially it was a bit too temporary for many, but seeing that they've changed their paradigm to adding more permanence to things. Look at this new tower that should be opening up to access today. Indications are that the tower at least will remain a permanent part of the zone, forever changing the zone's appearance and content. OK, it's true that not every two week release is liked by everyone, but with new content coming into the game, at no charge by the way, every two weeks there's plenty of new things to do for everyone as time progresses. Like they say, you're always within a week of new content about to be released or having been released. That's a nice touch and a pleasant way to keep the world alive. They're also doing this predominantly in lower level zones which, when combined with the down-scaling system, keep all zones in the game relevant instead of dead and forgotten wastelands. 

 

Basically, aside from Eve Online this is the only game (personal experience) where there's never been that "nothing left to do" moment that hits you. There will always be something you haven't done or tried yet just around the corner. Maybe you'll like it, maybe you won't, but if you don't all you have to do is wait a couple weeks for something else new.

Oderint, dum metuant.

  Amjoco

Elite Member

Joined: 9/15/10
Posts: 3445

11/12/13 7:23:39 AM#137
Originally posted by Jasper300

GW2 definitely "feels" more alive than other games but personally I feel like the leveling experience is like a solo campaign.

I don't feel like other people want to party up and quest/explore together

Ask and they will! I have been playing mmorpgs for years, and not one that I know of  them other players magically appear next to you and quest. GW2 is no different, you have to ask others to play if you want that involvement. In fact, GW2 offers more than most mmorpgs in that you can join a battle, and still receive credit unlike the default game where once the mob is tagged it is lost.

Death is nothing to us, since when we are, Death has not come, and when death has come, we are not.

  rodingo

Elite Member

Joined: 1/18/07
Posts: 1377

11/12/13 7:29:17 AM#138
Personally I don't mind that people complain about this game, WoW, Rift, Eve, checkers,..etc...  You can't please them all and options of games to play is a good thing.  The only thing that sort of gets under my skin are the people that constantly remind us they don't like the game in just about every positive (or negative) thread.  I would love to read a legitimate, non-sarcastic reason as to why certain people have been posting negatively in the same game forums for over a year just to bash the game.  I'm genuinely curious as to why.

"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor

  Swids2010

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/22/13
Posts: 151

11/12/13 7:35:32 AM#139

Because its lie's again they said the living world updates would change the world that a player coming to the game a year after launch would find a completely different experience which is absolute bull crap all the changes have been trivial stuff or silly mini games that have no effect on the so cold living world I would rather wait every 6-12 months for a expansion than all the crap they pump out every two weeks.

.

  Volkon

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/14/10
Posts: 3804

Facts do not require fiction for balance.

11/12/13 7:39:39 AM#140
Originally posted by Swids2010

Because its lie's again they said the living world updates would change the world that a player coming to the game a year after launch would find a completely different experience which is absolute bull crap all the changes have been trivial stuff or silly mini games that have no effect on the so cold living world I would rather wait every 6-12 months for a expansion than all the crap they pump out every two weeks.

.

 

So you'd rather wait longer to get less and be charged for it?

 

Interesting.

Oderint, dum metuant.

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