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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » We got a MMO that tries to make the world living and still people complain It's not alive enough

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163 posts found
  Torgrim

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 12/15/05
Posts: 2154

 
OP  11/03/13 6:09:03 PM#1

We are used to static NPC quest hubs, nothing really happends in the zone you quest in your favorite MMO, sure you can read what happend but you really can't see it.

Anet is trying hard with thier living world thing, yes I find some of them boring and grinding but atleast they are trying to make something that few MMO ever dared to try, they try to make the world living and in a flux of change in a minor degree, for me atleast that is a nice kick in the right direction how a MMO world can feel alive and not static, sure Anet have made some blunders but you have to make some errors to learn from your misstakes.

But sadly some people want the whole power for themselves to change the world and that power is a really bad thing, there are so many gamers out there who love and thrives to just fuck things up and that's why I feel Anet is on the right track, they are making the living world not some moronic and sick players.

You can hate or love this living world events but you have to see that this is a first step in something NOT static and I hope more future MMOs takes after Anets bold aproach on how a gaming world evolves and hopefully improves on it.

 

 

If it's not broken, you are not innovating.

  xeniar

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/09/06
Posts: 814

11/03/13 6:14:05 PM#2
You fail to see that This is just quest hubs in disguise. it makes the world apear living but it does not feel living at all.
  Dreamo84

Defender of Worlds

Joined: 5/20/04
Posts: 2994

I actually still like MMORPGs

11/03/13 6:18:21 PM#3

I can't agree more. People constantly complain they want something new, and a company actually tries something new and they just complain about it. Love it or hate it you should at least respect a company for steering away from the norm. The trinity, static quests, are all pretty standard these days.

People just like to hate, I try to be as unbiased and understanding as possible when it comes to judging games. A lot of passion and hard work goes into these things and it's so disrespectful the way some people attempt to summarize a game with "it sucks, just a lame cash grab, another boring themepark."

Anyone who has actually played GW2 can see it's very different from your standard MMO. I refuse to believe anyone who says otherwise has actually played it or didn't make up their mind before trying it.

  DMKano

Elite Member

Joined: 6/17/11
Posts: 5433

11/03/13 6:21:55 PM#4

I think many players want a virtual ecosystem, not a fake attempt at making one.

A true virtual ecosystem would have *finite* resources, that's the one obvious problem with every single major MMORPG, you can mine and cut trees and kill animals for leather and they will keep respawning infinitely.

Overfarming of any resource (be it plant, ore, or even goblins, giants etc..) should send ripples through the entire ecosystem - that's the problem, a virtual ecosystem would be VERY hard to implement in a MMORPG without crazy overhead costs.

 Every item build could always be deconstructed into raw resources to be remade into something else - this would keep it to where you wouldn't have to farm all the finite resources as if there is too much of item X in the supply, you could break it down and built item Y that is now desirable more than item X.

But that is what I'd like to see - a naturally balanced system that responds to players actions - you think killing all the goblins might be a good thing, but you didn't know that goblins also kept the undead in check, and without them now you are engulfed in undead, and they are 5x worse. Also without the goblins - the knowledge and magics they used is almost impossible to find, so entire branches of goblin magic and crafting would not be able to be progressed anymore for example - real impact to players.

The AI would have to be pretty phenomenal, but the game with finite resources would revolutionize MMORPG genre entirely.

Imagine where players actions made a real drastic impact on the world - I know lots of games advertise this, but NONE have even come close to delivering on this.

We can achieve great things in games - you can develop a strong character and get great gear, but why can't we experience great loss as well? 

All player actions should send ripple effects on the game world, upset the balance too much, you should have a real risk of losing it all.

 

  Dreamo84

Defender of Worlds

Joined: 5/20/04
Posts: 2994

I actually still like MMORPGs

11/03/13 6:23:14 PM#5
Originally posted by xeniar
You fail to see that This is just quest hubs in disguise. it makes the world apear living but it does not feel living at all.

It's still a step in the right direction. There are no "hubs" in fact. You can't just go to one spot and gather up all the quests. You have to traverse the terrain and catch things as they happen. It's not uncommon to start in one spot and end up on the complete opposite side of the map and not realize because you were just catching things as it happens.

The whole vibe is just different. In a "quest hub" scenario you run through the hub and just grab all the exclamation points and follow the quests. In GW2 in time you certainly can remember where certain events are and go there hoping to catch it happening. But in a normal play through for your first time shit just happens and you don't know when or where it's going to happen.

I love it when a champion mob spawns and an NPC runs over to me to tell me whats happening. I run over and engage the mob knowing full well I can't defeat it on my own. I manage to hold it off for a while and suddenly other adventurers show up and we tackle the beast together! Success!

In a quest hub scenario I would have spawned this mob through a quest, killed it on my own as the others were waiting in line for their chance to finish the quest.

I'm sorry, it's a totally different experience and if you can't see that you're just blind.

  Dreamo84

Defender of Worlds

Joined: 5/20/04
Posts: 2994

I actually still like MMORPGs

11/03/13 6:24:20 PM#6
Originally posted by DMKano

I think many players want a virtual ecosystem, not a fake attempt at making one.

A true virtual ecosystem would have *finite* resources, that's the one obvious problem with every single major MMORPG, you can mine and cut trees and kill animals for leather and they will keep respawning infinitely. Every item build could always be deconstructed into raw resources to be remade into something else. 

Overfarming of any resource (be it plant, ore, or even goblins, giants etc..) should send ripples through the entire ecosystem - that's the problem, a virtual ecosystem would be VERY hard to implement in a MMORPG without crazy overhead costs.

But that is what I'd like to see - a naturally balanced system that responds to players actions - you think killing all the goblins might be a good thing, but you didn't know that goblins also kept the undead in check, and without them now you are engulfed in undead, and they are 5x worse. Also without the goblins - the knowledge and magics they used is almost impossible to find, so entire branches of goblin magic and crafting would not be able to be progressed anymore for example - real impact to players.

The AI would have to be pretty phenomenal, but the game with finite resources would revolutionize MMORPG genre entirely.

 

If EQNext manages to do what they say they are doing we might just get that or at least something similar. But people will still call it a quest hub in disguise. There is just no pleasing some people and their opinions of everything are pretty much hateful. They only live for causing grief to others who still genuinely have an interest and passion in gaming/MMOs.

  xeniar

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/09/06
Posts: 814

11/03/13 6:27:38 PM#7
Originally posted by Fendel84M

I can't agree more. People constantly complain they want something new, and a company actually tries something new and they just complain about it. Love it or hate it you should at least respect a company for steering away from the norm. The trinity, static quests, are all pretty standard these days.

People just like to hate, I try to be as unbiased and understanding as possible when it comes to judging games. A lot of passion and hard work goes into these things and it's so disrespectful the way some people attempt to summarize a game with "it sucks, just a lame cash grab, another boring themepark."

Anyone who has actually played GW2 can see it's very different from your standard MMO. I refuse to believe anyone who says otherwise has actually played it or didn't make up their mind before trying it.

Oke i have to agree its diffrent their mechanics are diffrent.

It's nice that the removed the standard quest hubs. but they replaced it with quest hubs in diguise. your still doing the same thing you did in the other themeparks but now its a sort of random. but im still moving from heart to hearth and doing the thing inbetween.

Also the world of GW2 it doesn't give me any feelings at all its another MMO world.

The only games wich make me feel anything where EQOA EQ2 and WAR, EQOA my first 3d mmo ive litteraly sat in that game and watched the sunrise in pure aww. WoW comes close to it i do feel a love for each zone when i enter it but after while it feels abit boring again it loses its magic) EQ2 has the exact same world as EQOA its in a diffrent time on a diffrent system with diffrent grapichs but the world feels alike that is hard to accomplish. And warhammer online. when i was cruising aroudn the dwarf and orc zones (my fav races) i felt the ongoing war. a demolisched Tank on the battlefield, i cannot tell you why i cannot explain why its diffrent from other games but it was.

Now GW2 suposedly has to feel more alive and its a nice touch having those npc's around and all but the zones apart from i geus the human and barbarian starter zones it diddn't feel that awesome for me. They made a setp in the right direction but their not there yet.

  DMKano

Elite Member

Joined: 6/17/11
Posts: 5433

11/03/13 6:33:10 PM#8
Originally posted by Fendel84M
Originally posted by DMKano

I think many players want a virtual ecosystem, not a fake attempt at making one.

A true virtual ecosystem would have *finite* resources, that's the one obvious problem with every single major MMORPG, you can mine and cut trees and kill animals for leather and they will keep respawning infinitely. Every item build could always be deconstructed into raw resources to be remade into something else. 

Overfarming of any resource (be it plant, ore, or even goblins, giants etc..) should send ripples through the entire ecosystem - that's the problem, a virtual ecosystem would be VERY hard to implement in a MMORPG without crazy overhead costs.

But that is what I'd like to see - a naturally balanced system that responds to players actions - you think killing all the goblins might be a good thing, but you didn't know that goblins also kept the undead in check, and without them now you are engulfed in undead, and they are 5x worse. Also without the goblins - the knowledge and magics they used is almost impossible to find, so entire branches of goblin magic and crafting would not be able to be progressed anymore for example - real impact to players.

The AI would have to be pretty phenomenal, but the game with finite resources would revolutionize MMORPG genre entirely.

 

If EQNext manages to do what they say they are doing we might just get that or at least something similar. But people will still call it a quest hub in disguise. There is just no pleasing some people and their opinions of everything are pretty much hateful. They only live for causing grief to others who still genuinely have an interest and passion in gaming/MMOs.

EQNext will be a small nudge in the right direction if they manage to deliver on any of the things they talked about so far.

Like the whole month long public quest - "raising of halas" - it's nothing more than a script that if it plays out you get outcome A, B or C. 

I seriously doubt that EQN will have a closed "finite" resources ecosystem - they never even hinted at such a thing.

 

  Ender4

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/18/08
Posts: 2096

11/03/13 6:38:59 PM#9

I think people are misinterpreting his post a little bit. He isn't talking about the normal events or the hearts, he is talking about the living world events. For those who don't currently play GW2 if you go to Kessex Hills the actual zone has changed and part of the change is supposed to be permanent.

I would argue that Asheron's Call has been making monthly updates for 10+ years now though, so this isn't something new with GW2. I'd also argue that the GW2 events tend to stink and that is why people complain about them.

If EQN delivers on half of what they say they will it will change the genre imo even if the game itself doesn't work well. A lot of games coming out in the next few years have great new ideas that could change things, hopefully some of them are good games but even if they aren't the ideas get passed along to the next generation and that is a good thing.

WAR added public quests which were pretty bad. Rift added them as Rifts in their game, GW2 built on them for the event chains in GW2 etc. Even if the game is bad like WAR, the ideas it brings get put into future games.

Tortage was mostly a marketing ploy in AOC so people would try it and think it was the entire game but TSW took the same concept and actually made it the full game etc.

  elocke

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/15/04
Posts: 4110

11/03/13 6:45:17 PM#10

That's because every zone feels like a box.  It has nothing to do with quest hubs or hidden quest hubs, those things work fine.  It's the lack of actually changing the world based on your actions as well as the extreme lack of a real progression system to grow your character.  Plus, the story just sucks all around and missing the nuance that GW1 had when it comes to story and style of the game.

All classes feel very similar in play, even while having different skills it's still the same setup of reactionary skills as opposed to taking action and controlling the playfield/battle in various ways.  This is also attributed to the fact that there is no real set role per class, so they are all quite homogenized.   They took away the Trinity and most people realize that the Trinity wasn't the problem with other MMOs.

I still hop into GW2 from time to time but I play for about a day and then leave because there is nothing to hold me, no draw to keep me playing.   I log in every month hoping that's changed, but so far, no luck.

http://www.twitch.tv/elockethemmoaddict

https://twitter.com/MMOAddicted

  FlyByKnight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/31/12
Posts: 508

11/03/13 6:47:25 PM#11

I apologize for getting hyped up when ArenaNet used this new buzzword called "Living World" and started the hype train moving for this new fantastical genre changing feature. I apologize for being let down when my introduction to this "Living World" was rummaging dead bodies along a path while lighting some fires.

 

While I'm at it, I apologize for being sold on a lot of things ArenaNet marketed and being later dissapointed.

 

On the bright side after experiencing Red5 and Firefall I have learned not to take Guild Wars 2 and ArenaNet for granted and look at the good things.

  Tatercake

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/24/07
Posts: 255

LET GO OF MY NUTS

11/03/13 6:48:24 PM#12

well my opinion is that there a bunch of spoiled kids that exspect everything and  dont reely do anything to help  a online community they just take from it and bitch about it

if i offend you good i care not 

  Nephelai

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/29/13
Posts: 164

11/03/13 6:49:43 PM#13
Originally posted by Fendel84M
Originally posted by xeniar
You fail to see that This is just quest hubs in disguise. it makes the world apear living but it does not feel living at all.

It's still a step in the right direction. There are no "hubs" in fact. You can't just go to one spot and gather up all the quests. You have to traverse the terrain and catch things as they happen. It's not uncommon to start in one spot and end up on the complete opposite side of the map and not realize because you were just catching things as it happens.

The whole vibe is just different. In a "quest hub" scenario you run through the hub and just grab all the exclamation points and follow the quests. In GW2 in time you certainly can remember where certain events are and go there hoping to catch it happening. But in a normal play through for your first time shit just happens and you don't know when or where it's going to happen.

I love it when a champion mob spawns and an NPC runs over to me to tell me whats happening. I run over and engage the mob knowing full well I can't defeat it on my own. I manage to hold it off for a while and suddenly other adventurers show up and we tackle the beast together! Success!

In a quest hub scenario I would have spawned this mob through a quest, killed it on my own as the others were waiting in line for their chance to finish the quest.

I'm sorry, it's a totally different experience and if you can't see that you're just blind.

While I admit something a little different is always good its the same thing in a different wrapper that only excites until you've opened it. Unfortunately people need tasks (quests) in MMO's otherwise they get bored and leave so they have to be part of it and the flip side of the problem is trying to make then unique and non repetitive.

 

Personally I think its the model - the just cant generate enough new things to do for the low cost model they run. I have no problem paying more money for decent entertainment I do that every week so I'd prefer to pay say $15 per week BUT have something new to experience every week.

 

I've outgrown (in age and salary) syncing my life into  MMO's cheap form of repetitive entertainment.

 

  FrodoFragins

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/29/10
Posts: 2771

11/03/13 6:59:43 PM#14
Originally posted by xeniar
You fail to see that This is just quest hubs in disguise. it makes the world apear living but it does not feel living at all.

It was an OK first step in making questing more interesting.  But they touted it as something it really wasn't.

 

Frankly, my favorite leveling experience in an MMO was in SWTOR.  It's clear they spent a fortune on it.

  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4819

11/03/13 7:32:44 PM#15
Originally posted by FrodoFragins
Originally posted by xeniar
You fail to see that This is just quest hubs in disguise. it makes the world apear living but it does not feel living at all.

It was an OK first step in making questing more interesting.  But they touted it as something it really wasn't.

 

Frankly, my favorite leveling experience in an MMO was in SWTOR.  It's clear they spent a fortune on it.

I agree on both points. GW2 tried and it worked for some. SWTOR was the best questing I've done but ...considering the cost I can't say it was worth it for them.

There's a saying about evolution and why we have two eyes and two ears but only one mouth. Clearly it didn't see the internet coming or it never would have given us ten fingers to type with.

  Ender4

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/18/08
Posts: 2096

11/03/13 7:49:08 PM#16

I'm not far into it yet so it might change but right now my favorite is TSW. The quests are actually somewhat interesting and the dialog isn't so stilted and goofy. Not to mention the side quests have so much more freedom and variety to them than most games. They also managed to use the quest markers on the map but not always make the actual location of quest items obvious so there is a bit more exploration to things.

  xeniar

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/09/06
Posts: 814

11/03/13 7:53:41 PM#17
Originally posted by Ender4

I'm not far into it yet so it might change but right now my favorite is TSW. The quests are actually somewhat interesting and the dialog isn't so stilted and goofy. Not to mention the side quests have so much more freedom and variety to them than most games. They also managed to use the quest markers on the map but not always make the actual location of quest items obvious so there is a bit more exploration to things.

TSW is really good on quests. making you think etc. i like that. altho alot of times i had to jsut search the internet for certain things. stuff like beethoven is not evryones intrest.

But this questsystem would work brilliantly in a fantasy mmo, Youd have to search for the awnser in the game by exploration

  iridescence

Elite Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1244

11/03/13 7:55:00 PM#18

Heh...I remember getting so hyped up when they talked about their dynamic events and how they would have these long chains and the zones would totally change based on what the players did. Turned out it's nothing like that of course. They're just public quests on cooldown timers.  I lost a lot of faith in GW2 the first time the NPC I "saved" in an escort event just respawned again five minutes later in the same place asking to be saved again. "Living World" indeed.  Now I hear EQ:N repeating a lot of the same hype for their game. We shall see...

 

Not saying GW2 is a bad game, it does a lot of things well.  But ANet is victim of their own hype. It's very much a themepark game, not a living world, right down to the tons of Steam-like achievements that serve as one of your main motivations for playing.  Gotta respect them for at least pumping out way more content than most games though, even if a lot of it isn't very compelling to me.

 

  Ender4

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/18/08
Posts: 2096

11/03/13 7:58:54 PM#19

I felt you could read between the lines with the GW2 dynamic events. I was pretty comfortable with the concept that they were just linked event chains from the videos they put out and that nothing would be permanent. The way EQN describes their game I would feel violated if that is what they release because they are selling a lot of these things as one time events and not just repeated events. They are selling a realistic AI where the game itself can auto generate content, dynamic spawn locations etc.

  Golelorn

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/23/03
Posts: 1071

11/03/13 8:02:53 PM#20
Originally posted by xeniar
You fail to see that This is just quest hubs in disguise. it makes the world apear living but it does not feel living at all.

Exactly.

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