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Life is Feudal

Life is Feudal 

General Discussion  » Life is Feudal - Sandbox Medieval MMO

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124 posts found
  kuroiaima

Novice Member

Joined: 9/14/10
Posts: 11

11/01/13 9:19:49 PM#101

a new interesting page on the website!

http://lifeisfeudal.com/Life-is-Feudal-like

  shirlnt

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/29/06
Posts: 354

11/01/13 10:41:57 PM#102
Originally posted by bcbully
Originally posted by tom_gore

Alright since it seems my point went off the mark here, let me elaborate a bit.

This has already been attempted by Darkfall and Mortal Online. Granted, both are still running (though I hear the latter is in financial trouble) but is there really room for more? We already have ToA contending for this same very, very small niche.

In the meantime, we have exactly zero, ZERO open world sandbox games which would offer consensual (player faction based) PvP, despite the fact the target audience for such a game is MUCH bigger than the FFA Full Loot PvP niche.

I don't know what the developers' expectations are, but I don't think they're aiming for three-digit subscriber/paying customer numbers, which is probably what they will get, at best.

 

Dude you and your crowd don't want a sandbox, you want a themepark with housing. Rules are made by the players with supporting systems in a sandbox. Hard rules like "you can't hit that person in the mouth for being an ass until he checks a box" simply does not belong. 

First, you claim a hard rule about "consensual" PvP doesn't belong, yet you want a "hard rule" for FFA PvP.  Sorry, but there can be no such thing as "rules free,"  it is just a question of how many "rules" are in the game...and those rules aren't just made by the players, they are also made by the game developer/company.  Between FFA PvP, total PvE, or consensual PvP, consensual PvP is actually the least "hard rule" of them all because it allows player choice.

Second, a sandbox is about much more than just the PvP ruleset.  There is a huge difference between wanting a sandbox that is PvE or consensual PvP  and wanting "a themepark with housing."  Just because a person doesn't care for FFA PvP doesn't mean they want a story line, quest driven experience that herds players from one leveled zone to another.

When I read post about what does and doesn't belong in a sandbox, whether or not sandboxes can be successful, and whether or not sandboxes must include FFA PvP, I think about Second Life.  Second Life is about as sandbox as an MMO could ever get, nearly everything in Second Life is player created: avatars, clothing, buildings, environments, objects, scripts, animations, emotes, etc.  Doesn't exactly qualify as a "themepark with housing" does it?  Yet there is no FFA PvP (in that every person in Second Life is not required to participate in PvP events), although PvP (and PvE) does exist in Second Life, but in order to engage in PvP, a player must go to a sim that allows PvP and equip a script or HUD in order to engage in PvP or engage in PvP through roleplaying.

As far as your statement on not being able to hit someone in the mouth for the way he's behaving, PvP isn't the best way to deal with something like that anyway.  Mute or report is the best way to deal with that person.  In fact, FFA PvP can make jerks even bigger jerks because muting may not take care of their behavior at that point (although I do love XBox ONE's system that is suppose to cause people who choose to behave poorly to end up only playing with/against others who choose to behave poorly when it comes to online activities).

 

  maccarthur2004

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/02/12
Posts: 508

11/01/13 11:32:30 PM#103

Althought i agree that open FFA PVP isn't required to a mmo be labeled a sandbox (altought it makes a mmo more "sandboxish" than restricted PVP), i still think that a sandbox mmo without instances and with limited resources can't work well without open FFA PVP.

 

The metagame aspects of diplomacy, social network, grouping and politics maybe can persists, but for sure will be far way poorer than in a mmo with realistic player interactions. The dispute for resources or power in the open world without free pvp wouldn't really occur: would be players camping them, trying to "tag" things before others, or players waiting in a line or queue provided by developers. Either way, would be dull and silly.

FFA PVP is a simple question of good or bad implementation. There are many ways to avoid mindless gank (the only good reason to object ffa pvp, since it "pollutes" the gameplay) without take off this feature and together all his benefits to the game world, players fun and mmo "sandboxiness".

 

 

 

"What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

  XAleX360

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/12/08
Posts: 356

11/06/13 6:35:16 AM#104
Originally posted by maccarthur2004

Althought i agree that open FFA PVP isn't required to a mmo be labeled a sandbox (altought it makes a mmo more "sandboxish" than restricted PVP), i still think that a sandbox mmo without instances and with limited resources can't work well without open FFA PVP.

 

The metagame aspects of diplomacy, social network, grouping and politics maybe can persists, but for sure will be far way poorer than in a mmo with realistic player interactions. The dispute for resources or power in the open world without free pvp wouldn't really occur: would be players camping them, trying to "tag" things before others, or players waiting in a line or queue provided by developers. Either way, would be dull and silly.

FFA PVP is a simple question of good or bad implementation. There are many ways to avoid mindless gank (the only good reason to object ffa pvp, since it "pollutes" the gameplay) without take off this feature and together all his benefits to the game world, players fun and mmo "sandboxiness".

 

 

 

I agree. Open FFA PVP is crucial to the sandbox nature of an MMO. This doesn't mean that there can't be any limits of sorts, but if most of the game doesn't allow FFA PVP than the sandbox elements will suffer.

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  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2873

There... are... four... lights!

11/06/13 9:13:37 AM#105
Originally posted by XAleX360

I agree. Open FFA PVP is crucial to the sandbox nature of an MMO. This doesn't mean that there can't be any limits of sorts, but if most of the game doesn't allow FFA PVP than the sandbox elements will suffer.

I totally disagree. Single player games which are 100% sandbox (like Minecraft) are no less sandbox because they don't have PvP. EvE doesn't have forced PvP either. Nor does UO.

This is the mindset the developers must fight and avoid. As long as they keep on creating sandbox MMORPGs with forced FFA PvP, those games will keep on failing.

Sandbox is NOT equal to FFA PvP, never has been. Sandbox gives sand and tools to the players to create. It has never included the fact that there needs to be bullies able to destroy your creations.

Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2

Got a refund: Archeage. First refund since I started MMOs.

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  maccarthur2004

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/02/12
Posts: 508

11/06/13 12:02:14 PM#106
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
. EvE doesn't have forced PvP either.

So we must be talking about different things here and arguing without reason, since to me EVE has open ffa pvp. I do not advocate a open pvp without any consequence.

"What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

  maccarthur2004

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/02/12
Posts: 508

11/06/13 12:10:33 PM#107
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

This is the mindset the developers must fight and avoid.

To a developer with a sandbox mindset, is really very hard to try create a world simulator with the maximum fidelity possible to reality and then spoil it with a imersion-breaker unreal feature precisely in the most outstanding part of the mmo - the fight interactions -.

"What we are aiming in ArcheAge is to let the players feel the true fun of MMORPG by forming a community like real life by interacting with other players, whether it be conflict or cooperation." (Jake Song)

  dave6660

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/26/08
Posts: 2350

"Next time I see you, remind me not to talk to you."

11/06/13 2:27:56 PM#108
Originally posted by kishe
I like how same people can glorify  FFA pvp, hate Trammel and love Eve  as the ultimate FFA PVP experience when in eve 3/4 of zones can be considered "trammel-like". Sure you can attack anyone in 0,5-1.0 zones but you'll just get insta-killed 1,5 seconds later.

3/4?  You sure?

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  Avanah

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/18/04
Posts: 899

11/06/13 2:32:45 PM#109
Originally posted by Neo_Viper

Too bad it's another indie developer thinking sandbox means FFA PvP.

Another game to join DFO and MO in my failure category.

Fixed it for you. Underlined the word I fixed/changed.

Take care now. :)

TGIF...Thank God I'm Female

"My Fantasy is having two men at once...
One Cooking and One Cleaning!"

  Loktofeit

Novice Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12401

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

11/06/13 2:37:36 PM#110
Originally posted by XAleX360

I agree. Open FFA PVP is crucial to the sandbox nature of an MMO. This doesn't mean that there can't be any limits of sorts, but if most of the game doesn't allow FFA PVP than the sandbox elements will suffer.

ATITD, Second Life, Free Realms, Furcadia and a few other MMOs seem to indicate otherwise. Please, type it out. I really want to see someone reply with

"But wouldn't they be more immersive games if you could kill each other?"

 

 

The ability to murder anyone around you is not and never has been a requirement or necessity for sandbox gameplay. I get the feeling that if a company built an MMO that was an actual sandbox, some of you would completely reject it if you weren't allowed to kick over other people's castles.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2873

There... are... four... lights!

11/06/13 3:00:47 PM#111
Originally posted by maccarthur2004
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

This is the mindset the developers must fight and avoid.

To a developer with a sandbox mindset, is really very hard to try create a world simulator with the maximum fidelity possible to reality and then spoil it with a imersion-breaker unreal feature precisely in the most outstanding part of the mmo - the fight interactions -.

FFA PvP is actually anti-realism, unless your MMO is in a kind of "Mad Max" like total anarchy world. Even during the middle ages, people weren't killing each other mindlessly and repeatedly in the streets for no reason.

The worst enemy of a "world simulator" would be FFA PvP. Nothing breaks immersion more than seeing people killing each other all over the place with no valid reason except "just because I can".

 

@Lokto : once again, we agree.*

 

Originally posted by Ivylena
Originally posted by Neo_Viper

Too bad it's another indie developer thinking sandbox means FFA PvP.

Another game to join DFO and MO in my failure category.

Fixed it for you. Underlined the word I fixed/changed.

Take care now. :)

Because DFO and MO are brilliant successes. Welcome to reality. Not a single FFA PvP MMO became a big succes. Not a single one.

Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2

Got a refund: Archeage. First refund since I started MMOs.

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7493

11/06/13 3:11:47 PM#112
/sigh Play a game with a working crime/punishment, risk reward system before you get upset with FFA (wushu).

No one was a lawless world with everyone killing everyone.
  richarddoyle

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/17/07
Posts: 80

11/06/13 3:14:57 PM#113
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

FFA PvP is actually anti-realism, unless your MMO is in a kind of "Mad Max" like total anarchy world. Even during the middle ages, people weren't killing each other mindlessly and repeatedly in the streets for no reason.

The worst enemy of a "world simulator" would be FFA PvP. Nothing breaks immersion more than seeing people killing each other all over the place with no valid reason except "just because I can".

 

Not to mention the fact that the only way to make it "realistic" would be if anyone who was killed was permanently banned from the game or at least permadeath of that character.

That's the problem with players being the enforcers against unlawful gankers.  What could they do to discourage people from ganking?  The only option is permadeath of a character or permaban of an account, mimicking reality in which murderers are executed or put in jail for life.

Otherwise there will be no way to stop excessive ganking, as gankers will just keep coming back and doing it again.

Of course those who are killed by ganking would also permanently lose their character.

Sounds like a lot of fun to me... /sarcasm

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  Galadourn

Elite Member

Joined: 2/06/08
Posts: 1058

11/06/13 4:49:54 PM#114
FFA is tricky and, so far, I've not seen any game balancing it right.

http://kck.st/Xo38HT

  Aethaeryn

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/14/10
Posts: 1917

11/06/13 4:58:18 PM#115
Originally posted by Galadourn
FFA is tricky and, so far, I've not seen any game balancing it right.

Meridian had full loot PvP and it worked because:

1 character per account (not many had two at that time)

no restrictions on PvP. . killers could never enter town because they would be ganged up on.  There was never a time that anyone could not attack someone else (initially anyway)

small community . . everyone knew who the killers where because the map was smaller and the server population was small.

 

I think trying to "balance" it is what makes it broken.  Killers didn't have "red towns" to bank in so if they got killed they lost everything.  They were not red or blue so they could not exploit a karma system. . when Drithen's Fury was caught in town he was always a possible target.

 

Wa min God! Se æx on min heafod is!

  Saxx0n

PR/Brand Manager BitBox Ltd.

Joined: 10/15/10
Posts: 832

3/15/14 9:27:17 AM#116
Originally posted by Galadourn
FFA is tricky and, so far, I've not seen any game balancing it right.

 

They seem to be on the right track with this info

http://lifeisfeudal.com/mmorpgsandLiF/Death-and-Alignment-in-sandbox-MMO-game-Life-is-Feudal

  Phry

Elite Member

Joined: 7/01/04
Posts: 5413

3/15/14 9:44:22 AM#117
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by maccarthur2004
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

This is the mindset the developers must fight and avoid.

To a developer with a sandbox mindset, is really very hard to try create a world simulator with the maximum fidelity possible to reality and then spoil it with a imersion-breaker unreal feature precisely in the most outstanding part of the mmo - the fight interactions -.

FFA PvP is actually anti-realism, unless your MMO is in a kind of "Mad Max" like total anarchy world. Even during the middle ages, people weren't killing each other mindlessly and repeatedly in the streets for no reason.

The worst enemy of a "world simulator" would be FFA PvP. Nothing breaks immersion more than seeing people killing each other all over the place with no valid reason except "just because I can".

 

@Lokto : once again, we agree.*

 

Originally posted by Ivylena
Originally posted by Neo_Viper

Too bad it's another indie developer thinking sandbox means FFA PvP.

Another game to join DFO and MO in my failure category.

Fixed it for you. Underlined the word I fixed/changed.

Take care now. :)

Because DFO and MO are brilliant successes. Welcome to reality. Not a single FFA PvP MMO became a big succes. Not a single one.

QFT.

FFA PVP in an MMO is something that just is not popular or all that well liked, its not even a question of class/skill balance, Its because only a very small minority of even avid hard core PvP'ers actually want it.No casual PvP player would ever stick with it and even the hard core would have trouble with it, because its pointless PvP, and PvP without reason or structure is just chaos, and a griefers paradise, and griefers would gravitate to a game like that like flies to a rotting corpse, and with similar results, nobody would want to have anything to do with it. The developers really have a good long think about what kind of game they are trying to create and what kinds of people would play it, if they are happy trying to make a game with such a narrow appeal, then fine, DF;UW and Mortal Online  are their competitors, because player numbers are going to be low. very low.

  Phry

Elite Member

Joined: 7/01/04
Posts: 5413

3/15/14 9:49:50 AM#118
Originally posted by Aethaeryn
Originally posted by Galadourn
FFA is tricky and, so far, I've not seen any game balancing it right.

Meridian had full loot PvP and it worked because:

1 character per account (not many had two at that time)

no restrictions on PvP. . killers could never enter town because they would be ganged up on.  There was never a time that anyone could not attack someone else (initially anyway)

small community . . everyone knew who the killers where because the map was smaller and the server population was small.

 

I think trying to "balance" it is what makes it broken.  Killers didn't have "red towns" to bank in so if they got killed they lost everything.  They were not red or blue so they could not exploit a karma system. . when Drithen's Fury was caught in town he was always a possible target.

 

Meridian 59 had a very small playerbase, people knew each other very well, this was after all, before MMO's really caught on, and when servers had dozens of players, and where peak times were when there was over 100 players on, besides it was more about RP'ing than level grinding or PvP'ing. MMO's have evolved significantly since then, and those kinds of game mechanics just would not work in a modern MMO.

  General-Zod

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 572

Kneel.

3/15/14 10:11:34 AM#119
Originally posted by Phry
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by maccarthur2004
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

This is the mindset the developers must fight and avoid.

To a developer with a sandbox mindset, is really very hard to try create a world simulator with the maximum fidelity possible to reality and then spoil it with a imersion-breaker unreal feature precisely in the most outstanding part of the mmo - the fight interactions -.

FFA PvP is actually anti-realism, unless your MMO is in a kind of "Mad Max" like total anarchy world. Even during the middle ages, people weren't killing each other mindlessly and repeatedly in the streets for no reason.

The worst enemy of a "world simulator" would be FFA PvP. Nothing breaks immersion more than seeing people killing each other all over the place with no valid reason except "just because I can".

 

@Lokto : once again, we agree.*

 

Originally posted by Ivylena
Originally posted by Neo_Viper

Too bad it's another indie developer thinking sandbox means FFA PvP.

Another game to join DFO and MO in my failure category.

Fixed it for you. Underlined the word I fixed/changed.

Take care now. :)

Because DFO and MO are brilliant successes. Welcome to reality. Not a single FFA PvP MMO became a big succes. Not a single one.

QFT.

FFA PVP in an MMO is something that just is not popular or all that well liked, its not even a question of class/skill balance, Its because only a very small minority of even avid hard core PvP'ers actually want it.No casual PvP player would ever stick with it and even the hard core would have trouble with it, because its pointless PvP, and PvP without reason or structure is just chaos, and a griefers paradise, and griefers would gravitate to a game like that like flies to a rotting corpse, and with similar results, nobody would want to have anything to do with it. The developers really have a good long think about what kind of game they are trying to create and what kinds of people would play it, if they are happy trying to make a game with such a narrow appeal, then fine, DF;UW and Mortal Online  are their competitors, because player numbers are going to be low. very low.

You guys seem to be missing the point...

"Target audience" and "niche" doesn't mean big success and having millions of players.

 

  Saxx0n

PR/Brand Manager BitBox Ltd.

Joined: 10/15/10
Posts: 832

3/15/14 11:16:36 AM#120

You guys seem to be missing the point...

"Target audience" and "niche" doesn't mean big success and having millions of players.

 

 

That's what they thought about Dayz too...

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