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Life is Feudal

Life is Feudal 

General Discussion  » Life is Feudal - Sandbox Medieval MMO

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124 posts found
  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17175

10/31/13 12:33:29 PM#61
Originally posted by Neo_Viper
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by Neo_Viper
Originally posted by nerovipus32
Originally posted by Neo_Viper

There we go. Here comes the same vocal minority thinking sandbox automatically means FFA PvP with full loot.

Sandbox means players building stuff in the world given the tools and the sand, it doesn't mean "gank fest".

And you wonder why those indie games fail one after the other.

No sandbox means, player driven communities were the player makes the rules not some dev created script.

Wrong, otherwise there could be no single player sandbox games for instance. Once again, the same crowd confuses "sandbox" and "anarchy".

"Sandbox" is pretty much self explanatory. A place where the player can create stuff. The bullies destroying your creations are NOT necessary for a game to be a sandbox.

I mean, look at the mechanics those people plan to add to their game... There's room for everyone in there. The crafting alone seems awesome. They could triple their potential player base by offering CHOICES. Yet no, it's another "head up his ass" indie developer who will fail because of that proverbial "head up his ass".

ok I can play this game too: "wrong."

your thinking is so convoluted.

NeoViper was correct. Why? Because we are talking about a "multiplayer mmo sandbox game".

In a multi-player mmo sandbox game the playres can play how they want within the framework. of the world they create. It's about building exploring, fighting, etc..

Because there can also feasibly be a "Themepark buidling game" where players build things along a predetermined route,. building things has nothing to do with a game being themepark or sandbox.

You are trying to say that because something can manifest itself in a single player sandbox game it defines what a sandbox game is.

And that's just not so.

There are sandbox multiplayer games without fighting at all, and there are sandbox multiplayer games where PvP is not forced on you.

At Tale in the Desert, for instance. Or Second life, too. Or UO post Trammel, after they saved the game by giving people choices. Or SWG.

Sorry, even the multiplayer element in a sandbox game doesn't automatically involve the "bully" destroying your sand castle.

Hell, when I was a kid, a long time ago, I played lego and also "fisher technic" with friends, and it didn't involve destroying each other's creations.

So yes, I am indeed correct. Sandbox, even multiplayer, doesn't require the "bully" aspect.

I see your point but you aren't understandnig mine.

If I can create a game where one builds but one has to follow a "themepark" format of quests and essentially having the player follow a story as say, an architect/builder then "building" is not the thing that defines "sandbox".

What defines sandbox is a certain level of freedom for the player to do as he/she pleases.

But you are correct, one can have a sandbox game without pvp and I assert that one can have a sandbox game without building *GASP!!!*

I think players too strongly desire labels to clearly define things and it's too easy to step outside those labels and find alternatives.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19709

10/31/13 12:36:52 PM#62
Originally posted by Neo_Viper
Originally posted by Azoth

Who said they wanted to change the genre ? Maybe they just want to make a game they would like to play ?

Oh, I have no problem with that, it's not my money - they will end like just another "Mortal Online", if not worse, it's their problem. History repeats itself, even for MMORPGs, and some people just never learn from past failure.

Plus, it is fair game to speculate on their chance of success.

 

  Neo_Viper

Novice Member

Joined: 5/10/13
Posts: 624

If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong.

10/31/13 12:37:43 PM#63
Originally posted by Sovrath

I see your point but you aren't understandnig mine.

If I can create a game where one builds but one has to follow a "themepark" format of quests and essentially having the player follow a story as say, an architect/builder then "building" is not the thing that defines "sandbox".

I think you perfectly understood what I was saying and are now only arguing on semantics.

Have a nice day :)

My computer is better than yours.

  kishe

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/28/04
Posts: 1963

firefighter lvl90

10/31/13 12:40:23 PM#64
I like how same people can glorify  FFA pvp, hate Trammel and love Eve  as the ultimate FFA PVP experience when in eve 3/4 of zones can be considered "trammel-like". Sure you can attack anyone in 0,5-1.0 zones but you'll just get insta-killed 1,5 seconds later.
  Shadanwolf

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/13/10
Posts: 1872

10/31/13 12:41:37 PM#65

I was interested until I read "full loot"

NEVER EVER will I play a game that has it.

  Neo_Viper

Novice Member

Joined: 5/10/13
Posts: 624

If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong.

10/31/13 12:41:58 PM#66
Originally posted by kishe
I like how same people can glorify  FFA pvp, hate Trammel and love Eve  as the ultimate FFA PVP experience when in eve 3/4 of zones can be considered "trammel-like". Sure you can attack anyone in 0,5-1.0 zones but you'll just get insta-killed 1,5 seconds later.

And that's why EVE works, and all those indie FFA PvP gank fest games fail.

My computer is better than yours.

  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2019

10/31/13 12:45:44 PM#67
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by Neo_Viper
Originally posted by nerovipus32
Originally posted by Neo_Viper

There we go. Here comes the same vocal minority thinking sandbox automatically means FFA PvP with full loot.

Sandbox means players building stuff in the world given the tools and the sand, it doesn't mean "gank fest".

And you wonder why those indie games fail one after the other.

No sandbox means, player driven communities were the player makes the rules not some dev created script.

Wrong, otherwise there could be no single player sandbox games for instance. Once again, the same crowd confuses "sandbox" and "anarchy".

"Sandbox" is pretty much self explanatory. A place where the player can create stuff. The bullies destroying your creations are NOT necessary for a game to be a sandbox.

I mean, look at the mechanics those people plan to add to their game... There's room for everyone in there. The crafting alone seems awesome. They could triple their potential player base by offering CHOICES. Yet no, it's another "head up his ass" indie developer who will fail because of that proverbial "head up his ass".

 

Sandbox isn't a binary state. No game is either total sandbox or complete lack of sandbox. It's based on the many many features in the game. Each one can either be MORE or LESS "sandboxy." Not restricting pvp and not restricting looting is more sandboxy than developer imposed restrictions such as flagging systems etc.

No 1 feature is essential to a game being called a sandbox, it's a sliding scale. So you can have a pretty sandboxy game without having ow pvp and full loot, but those features are still inherently sandboxy features.

 

Quoted cause neoviper doesn't seem to like answering the hard questions.
  User Deleted
10/31/13 12:46:31 PM#68

Great example of a game that will never see the light of day.  Every one of these indie "studios" does basically the same thing.  They release some "pre-alpha" or "alpha" footage, as if the final product will look or play any better.

 

And I had to laugh at the "Physics based combat" part of the video that just shows some random guy swinging a sword with chunky animation.

  Vermillion_Raventhal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/01/04
Posts: 1026

10/31/13 12:52:39 PM#69
Originally posted by Neo_Viper
Originally posted by kishe
I like how same people can glorify  FFA pvp, hate Trammel and love Eve  as the ultimate FFA PVP experience when in eve 3/4 of zones can be considered "trammel-like". Sure you can attack anyone in 0,5-1.0 zones but you'll just get insta-killed 1,5 seconds later.

And that's why EVE works, and all those indie FFA PvP gank fest games fail.

 

Lol, there are many who won't play a bad game no matter the genre.  Some people are in denial that Shadowbane, Mortal and Darkfall are failures because they're badly made games and don't even deliver whats promised.

  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2019

10/31/13 1:03:38 PM#70
Originally posted by Neo_Viper
Originally posted by kishe
I like how same people can glorify  FFA pvp, hate Trammel and love Eve  as the ultimate FFA PVP experience when in eve 3/4 of zones can be considered "trammel-like". Sure you can attack anyone in 0,5-1.0 zones but you'll just get insta-killed 1,5 seconds later.

And that's why EVE works, and all those indie FFA PvP gank fest games fail.

 

Oh my lord please stop this nonsense. Darkfall has 100% safe zones. You can even harvest and craft in these safe zones.
  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2019

10/31/13 1:05:43 PM#71
Originally posted by kishe
I like how same people can glorify  FFA pvp, hate Trammel and love Eve  as the ultimate FFA PVP experience when in eve 3/4 of zones can be considered "trammel-like". Sure you can attack anyone in 0,5-1.0 zones but you'll just get insta-killed 1,5 seconds later.

 

You're confused. Eve is more like felucca, not trammel. In fel you could hit people in towns and then get guard whacked. In tram you just literally couldn't do anything to anybody anywhere. EVE IS OLD-SCHOOL UO, NOT POST TRAMMEL UO.
  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17175

10/31/13 2:15:00 PM#72
Originally posted by Neo_Viper
Originally posted by Sovrath

I see your point but you aren't understandnig mine.

If I can create a game where one builds but one has to follow a "themepark" format of quests and essentially having the player follow a story as say, an architect/builder then "building" is not the thing that defines "sandbox".

I think you perfectly understood what I was saying and are now only arguing on semantics.

Have a nice day :)

er, I said just that very thing in my highlighted portion.

 

  Amaranthar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/18/06
Posts: 2171

10/31/13 2:37:43 PM#73
Originally posted by tom_gore
Originally posted by Amaranthar

And fortunately, this game has teeth.

An alignment system where PKers lose a lot more skill when they die. And more. This looks like a pretty good system, I like it.

Not a very long read, and worth looking into it...

http://lifeisfeudal.com/mmorpgsandLiF/Death-and-Alignment-in-sandbox-MMO-game-Life-is-Feudal

Problem with punishing PKs extra is that they learn to play around it, or at the very least concentrate only finding fights they know they will win 100% certain, and run from everything else. Didn't stop PKs in UO, they only moved to prey on helpless noobs even more.

 

 

Reading the info at the link, I don't see a way around penalties for PKing. With the exception of time and not doing bad deeds.

Quoting the site:

"Alignment refers to the value representing how good, evil or in between a player is. Positive alignment indicates a righteous player, raised by performing everyday prayers. The amount of Alignment that a player can gain per day has a cap(limit) on it. Negative alignment indicates a villainous player, and alignment decreases by murdering, assaulting, robbing or knocking out other players."

"Alignment raises slowly but drops quickly, and you can not gain alignment from killing low alignment players. This creates a system of greater risk for greater reward: killing players will allow the attacker to loot the victims corpse, but if the attacker is killed their skill points receive much greater penalties because of low alignment."

It seems to me that if they are not allowing alignment increases for killing low aligned characters, then they are actually trying to make this work. as opposed to trying to build in "outs" for PKers while fooling the rest with false hope.

And the only way to raise alignment is through prayers, with a Cap per day. It looks like there's no way around it, if a player PKs regularly they will pay for their virtual sins.

UO, on the other hand, always had "outs" rigged into the system. As do all the other games I've seen that claim some sort of "justice system" that does nothing to stop PKing.

 

 

Once upon a time....

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19709

10/31/13 2:43:44 PM#74
Originally posted by asmkm22

And I had to laugh at the "Physics based combat" part of the video that just shows some random guy swinging a sword with chunky animation.

Yeah .. buzz words like "physics based combat" are just words. It does not look fun to me.

I would much rather have "fantasy based combat" that have better graphics, more tactical options with magic and what-not.

Making it more real does not mean that it is more fun.

 

  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2019

10/31/13 2:46:20 PM#75
Originally posted by Amaranthar
Originally posted by tom_gore
Originally posted by Amaranthar

And fortunately, this game has teeth.

An alignment system where PKers lose a lot more skill when they die. And more. This looks like a pretty good system, I like it.

Not a very long read, and worth looking into it...

http://lifeisfeudal.com/mmorpgsandLiF/Death-and-Alignment-in-sandbox-MMO-game-Life-is-Feudal

Problem with punishing PKs extra is that they learn to play around it, or at the very least concentrate only finding fights they know they will win 100% certain, and run from everything else. Didn't stop PKs in UO, they only moved to prey on helpless noobs even more.

 

 

Reading the info at the link, I don't see a way around penalties for PKing. With the exception of time and not doing bad deeds.

Quoting the site:

"Alignment refers to the value representing how good, evil or in between a player is. Positive alignment indicates a righteous player, raised by performing everyday prayers. The amount of Alignment that a player can gain per day has a cap(limit) on it. Negative alignment indicates a villainous player, and alignment decreases by murdering, assaulting, robbing or knocking out other players."

"Alignment raises slowly but drops quickly, and you can not gain alignment from killing low alignment players. This creates a system of greater risk for greater reward: killing players will allow the attacker to loot the victims corpse, but if the attacker is killed their skill points receive much greater penalties because of low alignment."

It seems to me that if they are not allowing alignment increases for killing low aligned characters, then they are actually trying to make this work. as opposed to trying to build in "outs" for PKers while fooling the rest with false hope.

And the only way to raise alignment is through prayers, with a Cap per day. It looks like there's no way around it, if a player PKs regularly they will pay for their virtual sins.

UO, on the other hand, always had "outs" rigged into the system. As do all the other games I've seen that claim some sort of "justice system" that does nothing to stop PKing.

The genre never had a chance to flesh out possible ways to deal with PKing in an interesting or organic way. Here we are still talking about how UO dealt with it 10+ years ago. If they hadn't rashly implemented Trammel, the genre could've evolved down a path of simulation and adding interesting mechanics to the game. In contrast to the path they took which is just turning stuff off that people don't like.

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4812

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

10/31/13 2:51:12 PM#76
Originally posted by Amaranthar
Originally posted by tom_gore
Originally posted by Amaranthar

And fortunately, this game has teeth.

An alignment system where PKers lose a lot more skill when they die. And more. This looks like a pretty good system, I like it.

Not a very long read, and worth looking into it...

http://lifeisfeudal.com/mmorpgsandLiF/Death-and-Alignment-in-sandbox-MMO-game-Life-is-Feudal

Problem with punishing PKs extra is that they learn to play around it, or at the very least concentrate only finding fights they know they will win 100% certain, and run from everything else. Didn't stop PKs in UO, they only moved to prey on helpless noobs even more.

 

 

Reading the info at the link, I don't see a way around penalties for PKing. With the exception of time and not doing bad deeds.

Quoting the site:

"Alignment refers to the value representing how good, evil or in between a player is. Positive alignment indicates a righteous player, raised by performing everyday prayers. The amount of Alignment that a player can gain per day has a cap(limit) on it. Negative alignment indicates a villainous player, and alignment decreases by murdering, assaulting, robbing or knocking out other players."

"Alignment raises slowly but drops quickly, and you can not gain alignment from killing low alignment players. This creates a system of greater risk for greater reward: killing players will allow the attacker to loot the victims corpse, but if the attacker is killed their skill points receive much greater penalties because of low alignment."

It seems to me that if they are not allowing alignment increases for killing low aligned characters, then they are actually trying to make this work. as opposed to trying to build in "outs" for PKers while fooling the rest with false hope.

And the only way to raise alignment is through prayers, with a Cap per day. It looks like there's no way around it, if a player PKs regularly they will pay for their virtual sins.

UO, on the other hand, always had "outs" rigged into the system. As do all the other games I've seen that claim some sort of "justice system" that does nothing to stop PKing.

 

 

This has the problem that sovrath mentioned though.

If their alignment drops when killing characters AND being killed with a bad alignment gives you penalties, then they will just make sure that the people they are killing (the low ones) have no chance at fighting back.  Ergo they will keep killing the lower ones because who cares if they take penalties when they die because the low ones can't kill them.

It will rely on someone else to come to the rescue which never really works.  Somone coming to the rescue for or someone going on the revenge mission is IMO the exception while the rule is, just forget about it and move on.

btw the game does look intersting.  I registered yesterday :)

edit - if they really wanted to make it fair and reduce pk.  I say whoever initiates the attack (unless a consent duel type thing) gets stats/level/abilities dropped to be equal with the defender and if they lose they still have the alignment/buff penalty thing.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2019

10/31/13 3:05:54 PM#77
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Amaranthar
Originally posted by tom_gore
Originally posted by Amaranthar

And fortunately, this game has teeth.

An alignment system where PKers lose a lot more skill when they die. And more. This looks like a pretty good system, I like it.

Not a very long read, and worth looking into it...

http://lifeisfeudal.com/mmorpgsandLiF/Death-and-Alignment-in-sandbox-MMO-game-Life-is-Feudal

Problem with punishing PKs extra is that they learn to play around it, or at the very least concentrate only finding fights they know they will win 100% certain, and run from everything else. Didn't stop PKs in UO, they only moved to prey on helpless noobs even more.

 

 

Reading the info at the link, I don't see a way around penalties for PKing. With the exception of time and not doing bad deeds.

Quoting the site:

"Alignment refers to the value representing how good, evil or in between a player is. Positive alignment indicates a righteous player, raised by performing everyday prayers. The amount of Alignment that a player can gain per day has a cap(limit) on it. Negative alignment indicates a villainous player, and alignment decreases by murdering, assaulting, robbing or knocking out other players."

"Alignment raises slowly but drops quickly, and you can not gain alignment from killing low alignment players. This creates a system of greater risk for greater reward: killing players will allow the attacker to loot the victims corpse, but if the attacker is killed their skill points receive much greater penalties because of low alignment."

It seems to me that if they are not allowing alignment increases for killing low aligned characters, then they are actually trying to make this work. as opposed to trying to build in "outs" for PKers while fooling the rest with false hope.

And the only way to raise alignment is through prayers, with a Cap per day. It looks like there's no way around it, if a player PKs regularly they will pay for their virtual sins.

UO, on the other hand, always had "outs" rigged into the system. As do all the other games I've seen that claim some sort of "justice system" that does nothing to stop PKing.

 

 

This has the problem that sovrath mentioned though.

If their alignment drops when killing characters AND being killed with a bad alignment gives you penalties, then they will just make sure that the people they are killing (the low ones) have no chance at fighting back.  Ergo they will keep killing the lower ones because who cares if they take penalties when they die because the low ones can't kill them.

It will rely on someone else to come to the rescue which never really works.  Somone coming to the rescue for or someone going on the revenge mission is IMO the exception while the rule is, just forget about it and move on.

btw the game does look intersting.  I registered yesterday :)

edit - if they really wanted to make it fair and reduce pk.  I say whoever initiates the attack (unless a consent duel type thing) gets stats/level/abilities dropped to be equal with the defender and if they lose they still have the alignment/buff penalty thing.

PKs died in UO all the time. Saying that PKs will just make sure they never die really is not a reasonable thing to assume. It's simple: by creating a penalty for PKing, it will reduce PKing.

 

A lower level player is probably going to yield less of a reward. What's the point of killing some noob and dropping your alignment by just as much as if you killed a higher level player and get more gold? This of course is based on the assumption that the game will be set up in a way that higher level players will have better loot on them.

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4812

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

10/31/13 3:08:31 PM#78

But PK's did not die due to lower level players.  and lower level players are killed all the time by higher level players.

They do it because they like to.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2019

10/31/13 3:13:16 PM#79
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

But PK's did not die due to lower level players.  and lower level players are killed all the time by higher level players.

They do it because they like to.

It doesn't matter if they died to lower level players. It's an open, seamless world. In UO the vast majority of blue (innocent) players would gang up on a PK if they saw one running through a dungeon chasing another blue player. And the vast majority of players were blue. So sure a PK isn't likely to die to 1 low level innocent player, but he could die to 5 - 10 innocent players quite easily. 

 

And like I pointed out before, this is from a game that's 10+ years old where there was almost no incentive to hunt PKs and very little in the way of deterring PKs. 

  Amaranthar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/18/06
Posts: 2171

10/31/13 3:34:29 PM#80
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

But PK's did not die due to lower level players.  and lower level players are killed all the time by higher level players.

They do it because they like to.

It doesn't matter if they died to lower level players. It's an open, seamless world. In UO the vast majority of blue (innocent) players would gang up on a PK if they saw one running through a dungeon chasing another blue player. And the vast majority of players were blue. So sure a PK isn't likely to die to 1 low level innocent player, but he could die to 5 - 10 innocent players quite easily. 

 

And like I pointed out before, this is from a game that's 10+ years old where there was almost no incentive to hunt PKs and very little in the way of deterring PKs. 

The incentive to hunt PKs is the issue here. I did some reading at their site (not enough to be thorough really) and there are social aspects to the game. So I think if players belonging to a community keep getting PKed, there will be others of higher skills who will be interested in hunting down the PKers. Lost loot means lost community assets, and there's territorial control and warfare, sieges, etc. Reasons to protect your own.

I'm not totally convinced that all possible problems are solved, I'll have to get on their boards and do some interrogating of these scoundrels.

Once upon a time....

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