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EVE Online

EVE Online 

Jita (General)  » A fascinating backlash from the community

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65 posts found
  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4739

10/23/13 12:42:20 PM#21
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by aesperus
**snip for length**

I think you should add "routines" both mental and mechanical into your list somewhere there, but for the most part I agree with your post. Good points.

Reason I didn't add "routines" is because routines are basically a way of internalizing those same skill sets. I guess in a way it can become a skill in and of itself, but it's not really an aspect of the game, so much as it is an aspect of the player.

  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 6673

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

10/23/13 12:54:38 PM#22

I feel MANY on both sides of a skill argument forget what skills are.Sure you can have some skill in setting up your ship but ONLY if you KNOW what your opposition will be,otherwise it is a crap shoot.

So the actual skill comes from your ship operation and Even has VERY little ship operation skills.

IMO you can never match the skill set of a fps arena type scenario because it offers almost every single aspect of thought ,reflexes,versatility and tactics like being sneaky and tricking your opponent into thinking one thing when you are actually doing something else or going somewhere else.FPS arena also offers z-axis and escape and cover routes,just offers it all and no space game can come close.Also in Arena combat you are constantly rethinking your strategy,changing your weapon often and relying a lot on prediction because you literally do not know where your opponent is but can reliably guess if you are well versed and skilled on map play.

If i gave FPS arena combat a 10 as the set standard,Eve would be like a 5.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w
Samoan Diamond

  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4739

10/23/13 12:57:36 PM#23
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by aesperus
**snip for length**

The thing is, there are multiple different kinds of skill.

Reaction / Timing

Strategy / Planning

Teamwork / Coordination

Aiming / Accuracy

Positioning

Efficiency / Speed

Prediction

A game like Eve typically has 2 types of skill, 3 at the most (positioning, planning, teamwork). A game like chess has more (especially if you are playing speed chess). Strategy, Planning, Efficiency, Prediction, Positioning. Now, a game like DotA has more types of skill than that: Reaction, Timing, Strategy, Planning, Teamwork, Coordination, Accuracy, Positioning, Efficiency, Speed, Prediction. However, not all MOBAs are the same, and indeed some (like LoL, or SMITE) still have a lot of skill types involved, but less of a skill cap (as you have to keep track of less things in order to be competitive).

Now, that doesn't mean that all types of skill are represented equally across all games. For example, chess often involves predicting a multitude of moves ahead, and is indeed known for having one of the highest skill-caps for strategy. However Eve's skill relies mostly in the preparation (stockpiling ships & resources), and then later positioning. Much less complex or involved.

MOBAs, on the other hand, have less strategy / predicting than chess; but they are also confined to limited resources, yet also have many levels of prediction, preparation, and strategy. The first level being the draft (which heroes you pick, deteremines what you're capable of, and which weaknesses you will have to deal with. That's the first layer of strategy and counter-strategy. Second, you have your item build (which changes dynamically to accommodate the situation). You then have things like skill builds, combo attacks, last hits / denies, warding & counter warding, ganking & counter-ganking, micro-managing minions, items, efficienctly balancing the economy (kills vs. farming vs. roaming). It's a lot more involved than I think most people realize. And indeed the average person does not play these games on such an advanced level.

- Thing is, Eve does have skill, but for more competitive players, it might not be enough. Some games are more complex than others, and some players enjoy games that are more demanding than others.

If you are comparing a single battle in EVE to a game of chess or a match in a MOBA, then I agree with much of your assessment. However, EVE gameplay, and a player's/team's strategies for success/victory, are on a much larger scale than that single battle. Some may not even be about the individual battle at all. Social engineering, diplomacy and even some of the aspects you dismiss (timing, efficiency, prediction) are all part of the skills needed to succeed in various aspects of EVE, especially PVP. 

What's your describing is essentially a secondary game, played by a very small segment of the game's population. The same exact things happen in Guild Wars 2, but I doubt Eve players would acknowledge it as a game of equal skill.

If a game was designed to let players be the pieces in chess. Moving a square here or there is not that exciting or skillful. The person giving them orders does have more to do and more to think about, but he wouldn't be the majority of the game's players. The pieces would.

Political / Social aspects exist in any multiplayer game where the players choose to take it seriously. That doesn't necessarily make it a mechanic.

You can try to argue that because a game like Eve has multiple battles, that it is somehow more complex. However, MOBAs do as well. Winning a team fight doesn't mean you won the game. The scale may be smaller, but that doesn't inherently make it less complex.

After all, Civilization V has tons of battles, huge maps, and many players controlling tons of units. However, that doesn't change the gameplay from being extremely simple. The entire game is essentially a race to 1 up everyone else, with very little in the way of nuance, or complex strategy. Then you look at a game like Starcraft. It's essentially only 1 match at a time. However, there is MUCH more complexity in that one match vs. the entire game of Civ 5. They're both excellent games, but Starcraft 2 makes every little thing relevant and game changing. Civ 5 doesn't.

The same can be said when comparing a game like Eve to a game like DotA. Eve looks complex when viewing it as a spreadsheet. But gameplay wise, it's really a lot more simple than people seem to realize.

 

  Dalano

Novice Member

Joined: 8/21/04
Posts: 115

10/23/13 2:49:42 PM#24

Are some people demonstrably better at EVE pvp than others?

I posit yes, and I've got a raft of Rooks and Kings videos to prove my position. Since skill is defined as "the ability to do something well; expertise", then by definition EVE pvp requires skill. Simple as that.

Playing: FFXIV, EVE

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18986

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

10/23/13 3:23:36 PM#25
Originally posted by aesperus
Originally posted by Kaelaan21
 

MOBAs, on the other hand, have less strategy / predicting than chess; but they are also confined to limited resources, yet also have many levels of prediction, preparation, and strategy. The first level being the draft (which heroes you pick, deteremines what you're capable of, and which weaknesses you will have to deal with. That's the first layer of strategy and counter-strategy.

In EVE I would liken this to which ships to fight with, large hulls, mid size or smaller, stealth fleet, etc.

Second, you have your item build (which changes dynamically to accommodate the situation).

So do you equip your ships with short range blasters or longer range weapons? Depends on where you plan to engage the enemy. What about healing, do you spider tank your hulls, do you equip them with energy neutralizers or other control mechanics, do you go for max speed, or rely on massive armor/shields or superior fire power?

You then have things like skill builds, combo attacks, last hits / denies, warding & counter warding, ganking & counter-ganking, micro-managing minions, items, efficienctly balancing the economy (kills vs. farming vs. roaming).

Yep, what sort of build does the pilot have, all level 5's in every area, or are there weaknesses that can be exploited.  What sort of combat strategy will your team employ, normally focused fire, who will coordinate, what is the proper priority for the FC to call the targets, what do you do if the unexpected strikes, how to best deal with a mix of small ships vs super capitals, what are acceptable losses and when do you decide to run.  Above it all, how do you pay for all of this, probably the most important factor of all.

It's a lot more involved than I think most people realize. And indeed the average person does not play these games on such an advanced level.

Indeed EVE does have far more involved in it, and you are right, the average player does not play it on such an advanced level, most are just foot soldiers / cannon fodder who follow orders of those who really understand what's going on.

- Thing is, Eve does have skill, but for more competitive players, it might not be enough. Some games are more complex than others, and some players enjoy games that are more demanding than others.

 Again I agree, most people can't really fathom the meta game around EVE, nor can really compete at that level.  It's not enough to be good at piloting your ship, but how big an empire can you build or be part of? I find it far more demanding (twitch skills aside) than any other MMORPG out there today.

Heck, I don't even have the time to play EVE these days, can't say that too often about a MOBA.

 

 

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18986

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

10/23/13 3:33:31 PM#26
Originally posted by Dalano

Are some people demonstrably better at EVE pvp than others?

I posit yes, and I've got a raft of Rooks and Kings videos to prove my position. Since skill is defined as "the ability to do something well; expertise", then by definition EVE pvp requires skill. Simple as that.

Yeah, funny thing about that, people who claim that EVE requires little skill can't actually win consistently vs others that figure out a way to do so.

But it takes no skill, anyone can do it.

Right.

 

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  whisperwynd

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/22/06
Posts: 1365

Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the priviledge to do so as well.

10/23/13 3:48:59 PM#27

 Not really surprised. 

Talk about any game that has been around for a while and has a following and you'll get a 'backlash'. It's the nature of people.

I won't get into this debate on whether or not EvE takes skill, I have my own opinion on it I am confident nothing said here would challenge that.

 I just wonder at the motivation of the author on writing this on a game 10 years old and still existing. A backlash certainly would get hits on the site and as they say, any news is good news.

  Iczer

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/10/04
Posts: 104

I want a world in a sandbox ... not a theme park!

10/23/13 4:13:55 PM#28

As a 7 year EVE player who has done everything from mining to small scale fleets to 300+ man fleets I can say that EVE does require a level of skill to partake in PVP but the skills you rely on are dependent on the type of PVP you do. Large fleets where you just listen to the fleet commander and follow orders requires very little player skill. Small scale PVP with say a group of 5 requires actual player skill because your in game actions will directly effect the outcome of a fight even tho you will still probably be following the orders of the FC to some extent. Lastly, and my favorite type of PVP requires a high degree of player skills in addition to a very wide range of game knowledge is solo PVP where you as a lone pilot attempt to engage a larger group of players. Not every fight requires player skill ... ganks where its a larger group vs a smaller, unsuspecting group generally do not.

I don't play much anymore but the last time I was heavily active this was the type of PVP I lived for ... me vs anywhere from 5 to 20+ other people. The skills you need to have on-the-field experience with (both solo and small gang PVP) include an understanding of how your ships speed and direction reduce / increase the damage you take, knowing how to perform certain maneuvers to catch other people or to get away when you are caught. There are many other player skills that have to be experienced to hone them so you can react quickly during a fight. However, the largest skill one needs in EVE is knowledge of everything ... every ship and weapon. This is the greatest asset an EVE player can cultivate and one that only comes over time and experience.

  Hulluck

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/19/13
Posts: 446

10/23/13 5:24:31 PM#29

I agree with the article.  I've always thought that a lot of people have confused being skilled with having knowledge.  Having knowledge is a powerful thing in Eve.  I don't think the article downplayed that either.  Knowledge is everything in Eve.   FPS's show skill.  Dota2 shows skill. Good hand and eye coordination. Good reaction time. In Eve you read your target then decide what you are going to do and do it with the knowledge you know. Toggle modules on and off as required and pick a flight path if at all. Then just evaluate the situation as it changes and make adjustments to the over all plan (FC's job).

Twitch reactions pulling off shots from across the map at will that most players cannot make like we see in tourney's is skill. Took a lot of practice and training.    StarCraft 2, being able to micro your units like the top players do is skill. Hell I'd argue that the articles point about A.T. was wrong.  Half the fights in the A.T. don't even show skill. Often times  2 sides went straight for each other and slugged it out and what happened, happened.

 

 

Edit just to say. Maybe I am splitting hairs?

  Fusion

Old School

Joined: 5/21/03
Posts: 1359

10/23/13 6:09:10 PM#30
Originally posted by Quirhid

Make all the bookmarks, do the scouting, organize the fleet, be ready to deploy or have it deployed if you have anything to deploy, make sure fleet boosters are in place, set up target callers, anchors, warp-ins... Often it is like going through a checklist. How does preparing take skill if it is just a chore?

Just needed to quote this, since people seemed to be skipping it, because it's what it is and they want to avoid it for butthurt :)

 

Currently playing: -

Waiting for: Class4.

Dead and Buried: ESO, NWO, GW2, SWTOR, Darkfall, AO, AC2, Vanguard, CoH/V, EnB, EVE, Neocron, FE, EQ, EQ2, DAoC, FFXI, FFXIV, SWG, WoW, and billions of eastern junks!

  NightBandit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/25/07
Posts: 760

Make friends not money, then wealth will follow.

10/23/13 6:24:02 PM#31
ROFL...so after playing Eve for ten years I finally realise I don't have any skill and I have been a lucky son of a bitch...Yeah right!!!
nightbandit Xfire Miniprofile
  CactusJack

Novice Member

Joined: 9/11/10
Posts: 400

Facta, non verba.

10/23/13 8:08:22 PM#32

I would say the word skill is relative. If I was doing fleet ops, then you're biggest skill was keeping your mouth shut and following what the FC was telling you to do. If you were doing small group pvp, then I have a tendency to disagree some. I can tell you personally that the smaller ship, the more skill it requires. 

If I was fighting someone armed with autocannons, then I need to keep them under my falloff and out of the range of their guns. If you are one of the people that clicks "set to orbit" at 500m and then thinks you are all set...well that won't work with someone that knows what they are doing.

Better yet, fly an EAF and tell me that doesn't require some skill...I beg to differ. If I am in a battleship and a frig is trying to tackle me and they fly straight at me bc they don't know what transveral means....then they get a free clone jump home. I wouldn't say clicking a button requires skill, but as any pilot will tell you it's not where you are....it's where you are going.

 

Playing: Rust and Battlefield 4
Hiatus: EvE
Waiting on: World of Darkness(sigh)
Interested in: The Repopulation

  Swedish_Chef

Novice Member

Joined: 8/26/13
Posts: 225

Bort bort bort!

10/23/13 9:09:38 PM#33
Have to agree with the writer of the article on this one. There is very little to no mechanical skill involved during a fight in EVE; it's all about the preparation, ship fitting, & stacking the odds in your favor.
  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12112

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

10/23/13 9:38:53 PM#34
Originally posted by aesperus
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by aesperus
**snip for length**

The thing is, there are multiple different kinds of skill.

Reaction / Timing

Strategy / Planning

Teamwork / Coordination

Aiming / Accuracy

Positioning

Efficiency / Speed

Prediction

A game like Eve typically has 2 types of skill, 3 at the most (positioning, planning, teamwork). A game like chess has more (especially if you are playing speed chess). Strategy, Planning, Efficiency, Prediction, Positioning. Now, a game like DotA has more types of skill than that: Reaction, Timing, Strategy, Planning, Teamwork, Coordination, Accuracy, Positioning, Efficiency, Speed, Prediction. However, not all MOBAs are the same, and indeed some (like LoL, or SMITE) still have a lot of skill types involved, but less of a skill cap (as you have to keep track of less things in order to be competitive).

Now, that doesn't mean that all types of skill are represented equally across all games. For example, chess often involves predicting a multitude of moves ahead, and is indeed known for having one of the highest skill-caps for strategy. However Eve's skill relies mostly in the preparation (stockpiling ships & resources), and then later positioning. Much less complex or involved.

MOBAs, on the other hand, have less strategy / predicting than chess; but they are also confined to limited resources, yet also have many levels of prediction, preparation, and strategy. The first level being the draft (which heroes you pick, deteremines what you're capable of, and which weaknesses you will have to deal with. That's the first layer of strategy and counter-strategy. Second, you have your item build (which changes dynamically to accommodate the situation). You then have things like skill builds, combo attacks, last hits / denies, warding & counter warding, ganking & counter-ganking, micro-managing minions, items, efficienctly balancing the economy (kills vs. farming vs. roaming). It's a lot more involved than I think most people realize. And indeed the average person does not play these games on such an advanced level.

- Thing is, Eve does have skill, but for more competitive players, it might not be enough. Some games are more complex than others, and some players enjoy games that are more demanding than others.

If you are comparing a single battle in EVE to a game of chess or a match in a MOBA, then I agree with much of your assessment. However, EVE gameplay, and a player's/team's strategies for success/victory, are on a much larger scale than that single battle. Some may not even be about the individual battle at all. Social engineering, diplomacy and even some of the aspects you dismiss (timing, efficiency, prediction) are all part of the skills needed to succeed in various aspects of EVE, especially PVP. 

What's your describing is essentially a secondary game, played by a very small segment of the game's population. The same exact things happen in Guild Wars 2, but I doubt Eve players would acknowledge it as a game of equal skill.

If a game was designed to let players be the pieces in chess. Moving a square here or there is not that exciting or skillful. The person giving them orders does have more to do and more to think about, but he wouldn't be the majority of the game's players. The pieces would.

Political / Social aspects exist in any multiplayer game where the players choose to take it seriously. That doesn't necessarily make it a mechanic.

You can try to argue that because a game like Eve has multiple battles, that it is somehow more complex. However, MOBAs do as well. Winning a team fight doesn't mean you won the game. The scale may be smaller, but that doesn't inherently make it less complex.

After all, Civilization V has tons of battles, huge maps, and many players controlling tons of units. However, that doesn't change the gameplay from being extremely simple. The entire game is essentially a race to 1 up everyone else, with very little in the way of nuance, or complex strategy. Then you look at a game like Starcraft. It's essentially only 1 match at a time. However, there is MUCH more complexity in that one match vs. the entire game of Civ 5. They're both excellent games, but Starcraft 2 makes every little thing relevant and game changing. Civ 5 doesn't.

The same can be said when comparing a game like Eve to a game like DotA. Eve looks complex when viewing it as a spreadsheet. But gameplay wise, it's really a lot more simple than people seem to realize.

 

"What's your describing is essentially a secondary game, played by a very small segment of the game's population."

I'm not sure you understand EVE. Whether you choose to take part in it or not, you are a part of it. That's the beauty of multiplayer simulation games like EVE Online. While every action has a very real impact on the game world, you as a player can choose to play at your personal risk and involvement level.

"If a game was designed to let players be the pieces in chess..."

You're changing the analogy. Let's stick with one and then you can move to another if you feel your original was flawed.

"Political / Social aspects exist in any multiplayer game where the players choose to take it seriously. That doesn't necessarily make it a mechanic."

Actually, EVE is designed with support for the player politics and the social engineering at almost all levels of gameplay. It is not only a common part of gameplay, but an integral part of it. The War Declaration System, Merc Marketplace, Bounty Hunting, and Starbase Improvements are just some of the recent features designed to support that with more features right around the corner in Rubicon.

"You can try to argue that because a game like Eve has multiple battles, that it is somehow more complex. However, MOBAs do as well."

I think this was the most telling of all your statements. The victories and losses in a MOBA battle do not affect the game's economy. There is also no persistent territory control in most MOBAs. I say "most" because I'm sure there's one out there that probably has it, I'm just not familiar it. A battle in EVE can be an isolated incident or part of a greater struggle for power, however each conflict has ramifications that reach beyond that conflict. 

Now, to be clear and before we go any further, I am not saying that other games do not have these things. You presented that EVE was no more complex than a MOBA and much less complex than chess, so that is what I'm speaking to in what I'm presenting.

"The same can be said when comparing a game like Eve to a game like DotA. Eve looks complex when viewing it as a spreadsheet. But gameplay wise, it's really a lot more simple than people seem to realize."

In a MOBA, there are plenty of people that are perfectly content playing a lane, never learning how to jungle, ping, use wards or do many of the other aspects that you are probably intrinsically familiar with. They enjoy the game thoroughly, probably even only playing one or two different characters out of the dozens of characters the MOBA may offer. The same is true of EVE Online. There are plenty that thoroughly enjoy their favorite ship and their favorite missions, not really expanding into anything much more complex than that. That doesn't mean the complexity or the skill to get into more advanced or more competitive gameplay isn't there. Again, the beauty of EVE is that you can play a low risk, low skill, low engagement surface game if you want or you can really go down a rabbit hole, and there are a lot of different rabbit holes to choose from. :)

Here are a few interesting ones:

and lots of other great ones on the True Stories portal.

There's playing EVE and there's playing EVE. As you progress up that scale, the level of skill required and the complexity of the gameplay increases significantly. Even as you move slightly up that scale, you start to go far beyond simple planning, positioning and teamwork. I think once you get to understand the gameplay of EVE better you'll agree that there's a lot more skill involved in gameplay and a lot more complex gameplay than you currently perceive there to be.

 

 

 

 

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fovoroth

  Quirhid

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5512

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

 
OP  10/24/13 3:53:23 AM#35
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by aesperus
Originally posted by Loktofeit
 

What's your describing is essentially a secondary game, played by a very small segment of the game's population. The same exact things happen in Guild Wars 2, but I doubt Eve players would acknowledge it as a game of equal skill.

If a game was designed to let players be the pieces in chess. Moving a square here or there is not that exciting or skillful. The person giving them orders does have more to do and more to think about, but he wouldn't be the majority of the game's players. The pieces would.

Political / Social aspects exist in any multiplayer game where the players choose to take it seriously. That doesn't necessarily make it a mechanic.

You can try to argue that because a game like Eve has multiple battles, that it is somehow more complex. However, MOBAs do as well. Winning a team fight doesn't mean you won the game. The scale may be smaller, but that doesn't inherently make it less complex.

After all, Civilization V has tons of battles, huge maps, and many players controlling tons of units. However, that doesn't change the gameplay from being extremely simple. The entire game is essentially a race to 1 up everyone else, with very little in the way of nuance, or complex strategy. Then you look at a game like Starcraft. It's essentially only 1 match at a time. However, there is MUCH more complexity in that one match vs. the entire game of Civ 5. They're both excellent games, but Starcraft 2 makes every little thing relevant and game changing. Civ 5 doesn't.

The same can be said when comparing a game like Eve to a game like DotA. Eve looks complex when viewing it as a spreadsheet. But gameplay wise, it's really a lot more simple than people seem to realize.

 

"What's your describing is essentially a secondary game, played by a very small segment of the game's population."

I'm not sure you understand EVE. Whether you choose to take part in it or not, you are a part of it. That's the beauty of multiplayer simulation games like EVE Online. While every action has a very real impact on the game world, you as a player can choose to play at your personal risk and involvement level.

"If a game was designed to let players be the pieces in chess..."

You're changing the analogy. Let's stick with one and then you can move to another if you feel your original was flawed.

"Political / Social aspects exist in any multiplayer game where the players choose to take it seriously. That doesn't necessarily make it a mechanic."

Actually, EVE is designed with support for the player politics and the social engineering at almost all levels of gameplay. It is not only a common part of gameplay, but an integral part of it. The War Declaration System, Merc Marketplace, Bounty Hunting, and Starbase Improvements are just some of the recent features designed to support that with more features right around the corner in Rubicon.

"You can try to argue that because a game like Eve has multiple battles, that it is somehow more complex. However, MOBAs do as well."

I think this was the most telling of all your statements. The victories and losses in a MOBA battle do not affect the game's economy. There is also no persistent territory control in most MOBAs. I say "most" because I'm sure there's one out there that probably has it, I'm just not familiar it. A battle in EVE can be an isolated incident or part of a greater struggle for power, however each conflict has ramifications that reach beyond that conflict. 

Now, to be clear and before we go any further, I am not saying that other games do not have these things. You presented that EVE was no more complex than a MOBA and much less complex than chess, so that is what I'm speaking to in what I'm presenting.

"The same can be said when comparing a game like Eve to a game like DotA. Eve looks complex when viewing it as a spreadsheet. But gameplay wise, it's really a lot more simple than people seem to realize."

In a MOBA, there are plenty of people that are perfectly content playing a lane, never learning how to jungle, ping, use wards or do many of the other aspects that you are probably intrinsically familiar with. They enjoy the game thoroughly, probably even only playing one or two different characters out of the dozens of characters the MOBA may offer. The same is true of EVE Online. There are plenty that thoroughly enjoy their favorite ship and their favorite missions, not really expanding into anything much more complex than that. That doesn't mean the complexity or the skill to get into more advanced or more competitive gameplay isn't there. Again, the beauty of EVE is that you can play a low risk, low skill, low engagement surface game if you want or you can really go down a rabbit hole, and there are a lot of different rabbit holes to choose from. :)

Here are a few interesting ones:

and lots of other great ones on the True Stories portal.

There's playing EVE and there's playing EVE. As you progress up that scale, the level of skill required and the complexity of the gameplay increases significantly. Even as you move slightly up that scale, you start to go far beyond simple planning, positioning and teamwork. I think once you get to understand the gameplay of EVE better you'll agree that there's a lot more skill involved in gameplay and a lot more complex gameplay than you currently perceive there to be.

I think you're missing his point. Eve is not a strategy game for the great majority of the players playing it. Its not. And the stuff that a Guild Leader or a Field Commander does in some other game is not all that different from what a CEO or a Fleet Commander might do in Eve. I was a co-CEO an FC and sat in alliance leadership in Eve and I did the same exact thing in World of Tanks. Had to debate diplomacy, had to debate politics, who gets the gold, trained people, organize the guys to defend or attack every night, lead the battles, make sure competent people were in the helm when I wasn't around...

Point is, it doesn't make it any different if you have mechanics designed for it. It doesn't make it any more skill no matter how many leadership meetings you sit in. Other games have their stories too, and they don't need to be sandboxes or have mechanics for it. You don't even need to have a persistent world. A forum goes a long way, surprisingly. People make do. They remember epic matches/battles and players who standout. There's always drama.

Your average guy doesn't need to know or involve himself with 95% of the game to join a fleet, yet they can still be part of the "winning team". Everything any strategist does in Eve is to downplay the effect of player skill as much as possible. Your opponent is more skilled? -Bring more friends, get bigger ships, switch to a counter-doctrine, escalate, strike when most of them are off-line...

Sometimes it is like kicking a guy who was already on the ground. The poor bastard didn't know what he was doing! Other times it feels like you know you are going to lose a fight, but your FC goes in anyway, and there I am thinking how else would I have wasted my next 30-180 minutes fighting a battle of which the outcome is predetermined. There shouldn't be a sense of accomplishment over hot-dropping someone who couldn't possibly know how many dozens of friends I had at the end of my cyno. But there is. Some people do feel accomplished - and I honestly don't know why.

I have done the same thing they've done, but unlike them, I don't think it requires much skill. I don't feel that I've accomplished anything. I can look back when I played Quake, Halo, Guild Wars, Warsow, World of Tanks, Shogun 2, League of Legends and think "man, I needed to be on top of my game to do good", but in Eve I don't get that feeling. All I need to do is avoid the "unforced errors" as they call them in Tennis. There's very rarely any feeling that you've out-played someone. It is very rare to even get a chance to do so! And sadly, even if you did, it likely doesn't affect the grand scheme of things.

That is why I agree with the article.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Quirhid

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5512

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

 
OP  10/24/13 3:59:55 AM#36
Originally posted by CactusJack

I would say the word skill is relative. If I was doing fleet ops, then you're biggest skill was keeping your mouth shut and following what the FC was telling you to do. If you were doing small group pvp, then I have a tendency to disagree some. I can tell you personally that the smaller ship, the more skill it requires. 

If I was fighting someone armed with autocannons, then I need to keep them under my falloff and out of the range of their guns. If you are one of the people that clicks "set to orbit" at 500m and then thinks you are all set...well that won't work with someone that knows what they are doing.

Better yet, fly an EAF and tell me that doesn't require some skill...I beg to differ. If I am in a battleship and a frig is trying to tackle me and they fly straight at me bc they don't know what transveral means....then they get a free clone jump home. I wouldn't say clicking a button requires skill, but as any pilot will tell you it's not where you are....it's where you are going.

True. Skill is relative, the smaller the engagement the more individual skill comes into play, smaller ships are harder to fly etc... However, a case could be made that games that only do small scale battle and do it better, demand more from the player. For example, a team fight in MOBA requires more skill than a skirmish in Eve.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  sgel

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/11/08
Posts: 985

I've got this creature on my back.. it just wont let go.

10/24/13 4:23:38 AM#37

This is GEVLON for crying out loud. 

Anyone who knows the who's who of EvE know not to take anything he says seriously.

He has never known what the hell he's talking about. Never.

 

Actually discussing if EvE needs skill.... honestly.

 

"This creature softened my heart of stone. She died and with her died my last warm feelings for humanity." - Joseph Stalin

  goldtoof

Novice Member

Joined: 10/18/13
Posts: 338

10/24/13 6:27:40 AM#38
More worryingly, there are rumours valkyrie will be a ps4 exclusive.
  Mors.Magne

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/02/07
Posts: 1425

10/24/13 7:57:30 AM#39
Originally posted by Kaelaan21

I think this article argues Semantics. The author is discrediting the skill in a strategy game.

I do not view DOTA/LoL clones as "strategy" games in the strict sense that many do people seem to today. Strategy is all about using your knowledge wisely to prepare yourself for your next move. Just like in a chess, a wise and skillful Eve player will make sure that targets are chosen wisely for the type of ship they are currently flying. They will also know how to use the UI and manage proper engagement.

A skilled eve pilot will usually have won before the battle has already begun. This is because they know that they are properly equipped to have the upper hand for the target they have chosen. In the event that the battle is evenly matched (such as the tournaments suggested), the skill is all about anticipating what moves your opponent will make next and execute without mistakes.

All games are going to have unskilled players that join the zerg - whether it's a traditional MMO such as WoW, a hardcore MMO such as Darkfall or a strategic MMO such as Eve. But saying that Eve PvP doesn't have skill just because it isn't played with "muscle memory" or twitch skill is kind of silly.

 

This article is like comparing football to chess and saying chess doesn't require skill.

I agree with what you've said, BUT people play Eve to have a good time, rather than to 'play chess' (which is no longer popular, because it's considered boring). The game isn't 3 dimentional enough to be fun after a few years.

 

There is no story to Eve other than battles.

 

This wasn't the original plan though - the pre-2008 idea was to make it a complete universe.

  uplink4242

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/15/08
Posts: 224

10/24/13 8:24:31 AM#40

I play eve and I agree with the article, especially this part:

In absence of strict PvP rules, EVE isn’t a skill game. EVE is a strategy game. Anyone claiming to have “skill” demonstrates that he has no skill in the strategy part that matters.

Eve is a game of decisions, and weighting your odds. It's a game of knowledge and adaptation. The amount of "skill" involved in attacking people is pretty much nonexistant, what matters is your decisions and organization. Lots of players revoke this because they feel inferiorized, but it's generally a way to feel better about themselves.

It's not a game of twitch or fast pace (and let's be honest there's hardly any MMOs with "skillful" combat in this regard). It is a game of strategy in its pure form. And sorry to disappoint, but the amount of strategical knowledge you need in this game surpasses every mmo in existance. As someone that played dota for years, it's a very reasonable comparison. What sets the game appart from an average player to a top player is 90% of the time attributed to decision making and planning. Mechanical skill and execution is rather trivial past a certain point (though there is more of it in dota).

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