Trending Games | Pirate101 | World of Warcraft | Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn | EverQuest

  Network:  FPSguru RTSguru
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,899,709 Users Online:0
Games:751  Posts:6,268,406
Recent forum postsRSS
Active threads
Cloud view
List all forums
General Forums
Developers Corner General Discussion
Popular Game Forums
Click a status to find game forum
Game Forums
Click a letter to find game forum
A-C
2029 Online 2112: Revolution 2Moons 4Story 8BitMMO 9 Dragons A Mystical Land A Tale in the Desert III A3 ACE Online ARGO Online Aberoth Absolute Force Online Absolute Terror Achaea Adellion Aerrevan Aetolia, the Midnight Age Age of Armor Age of Conan Age of Empires Online Age of Mourning Age of Wulin Age of Wushu Aida Arenas Aika Aion Albion Online Alganon All Points Bulletin (APB) Allods Online Altis Gates Amazing World Anarchy Online Ancients of Fasaria Andromeda 5 Angels Online Angry Birds Epic Anime Trumps Anmynor Anno Online Applo Arcane Hearts Arcane Legends ArchLord ArcheAge Archeblade Archlord X Ascend: Hand of Kul Asda 2 Asda Story Ashen Empires Asheron's Call Asheron's Call 2 Astera Online Astonia III Astro Empires Astro Lords: Oort CLoud Asura Force Atlantica Online Atriarch Aura Kingdom Aurora Blade Auto Assault Avatar Star Battle Dawn Battle Dawn Galaxies Battle for Graxia Battle of 3 Kingdoms Battle of the Immortals Battlecruiser Online Battlestar Galactica Online Battlestar Reloaded Beyond Protocol Black Aftermath Black Desert Black Gold Black Prophecy Black Prophecy Tactics: Nexus Conflict Blacklight Retribution Blade & Soul Blade Hunter Blade Wars Blazing Throne Bless Blitz 1941 Blood and Jade Bloodlines Champions Boot Hill Heroes Borderlands 2 Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel Bound by Flame Bounty Bay Online Brain Storm Bravada Bravely Default Bravely Second Brawl Busters. Brick-Force Bright Shadow Bullet Run Business Tycoon Online CTRacer Cabal Online Caesary Call of Camelot Call of Gods Call of Thrones Camelot Unchained Canaan Online Cardmon Hero Cartoon Universe CasinoRPG Cast & Conquer Castle Empire Castlot Celtic Heroes Champions Online Champions of Regnum Chaos Online Child of Light Chrono Tales Citadel of Sorcery CitiesXL Citizen Zero City of Decay City of Heroes City of Steam City of Transformers City of Villains Civilization Online Clan Lord Clash of Clans Cloud Nine Club Penguin Colony of War Command & Conquer: Tiberium Alliances Company of Heroes Online Conquer Online Conquer Online 3 Continent of the Ninth (C9) Core Blaze Core Exiles Corum Online Craft of Gods Crimecraft Crimelife 2 Cronous Crota II Crusaders of Solaris Cultures Online Cyber Monster 2 Cyberpunk 2077 Céiron Wars
D-F
D&D Online DC Universe DK Online DOTA DOTA 2 DUST 514 DV8: Exile Dalethaan Dance Groove Online Dark Age of Camelot Dark Ages Dark Legends Dark Orbit Dark Relic: Prelude Dark Solstice Dark Souls 2 Dark and Light DarkEden Online DarkSpace Darkblood Online Darkest Dungeon Darkfall Darkfall: Unholy Wars Darkwind: War on Wheels Das Tal Dawn of Fantasy Dawntide DayZ Dead Earth Dead Frontier Dead Island Dead Island 2 Dead Island: Riptide Deco Online Deep Down Deepworld Defiance Deicide Online Dekaron Demons at the Horizon Desert Operations Destiny Diablo 3 Diamonin Digimon Battle Dino Storm Disciple Divergence Divina Divine Souls Divinity: Original Sin Dofus Dominus Online Dragon Age: Inquisition Dragon Ball Online Dragon Born Online Dragon Crusade Dragon Empires Dragon Eternity Dragon Fin Soup Dragon Nest Dragon Oath Dragon Pals Dragon Raja Dragon's Call Dragon's Call II Dragon's Prophet DragonSky DragonSoul Dragona Dragonica Dragons and Titans Drakengard 3 Dream of Mirror Online Dreamland Online Dreamlords: The Reawakening Drift City Duels Dungeon Blitz Dungeon Fighter Online Dungeon Overlord Dungeon Party Dungeon Rampage Dungeon Runners Dungeon of the Endless Dynastica Dynasty Warriors Online Dynasty of the Magi EIN (Epicus Incognitus) EVE Online Earth Eternal Earth and Beyond Earthrise Eclipse War Ecol Tactics Online Eden Eternal Edge of Space Einherjar - The Viking's Blood Elder Scrolls Online Eldevin Elf Online Elite: Dangerous Embers of Caerus Emil Chronicle Online Empire Empire & State Empire Craft Empire Universe 3 EmpireQuest Empires of Galldon End of Nations Endless Ages Endless Blue Moon Online Endless Online Entropia Universe EpicDuel Erebus: Travia Reborn Eredan Eternal Blade Eternal Lands Eternal Saga Ether Fields Ether Saga Online Eudemons Online EuroGangster EverEmber Online EverQuest Next EverQuest Online Adventures Evernight Everquest Everquest II Evony Exarch Exorace F.E.A.R. Online Face of Mankind Fairyland Online Fall of Rome Fallen Earth Fallen Sword Fallout 4 Fallout Online Family Guy Online Fantage Fantasy Earth Zero Fantasy Realm Online Fantasy Tales Online Fantasy Worlds: Rhynn Faunasphere Faxion Online Fearless Fantasy Ferentus Ferion Fiesta Online Final Fantasy Type-0 HD Final Fantasy XI Final Fantasy XIV Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Firefall Fists of Fu Florensia Flyff Football Manager Live Football Superstars Force of Arms Forge Forsaken Uprising Forsaken World Fortnite Fortuna Forum for Discussion of Everlight Freaky Creatures Free Realms Freesky Online Freeworld Fung Wan Online Furcadia Fury Fusion Fall
G-L
GalaXseeds Galactic Command Online Game of Thrones: Seven Kingdoms Gameglobe Gate To Heavens Gates of Andaron Gatheryn Gauntlet Gekkeiju Online Ghost Online Ghost Recon Online Gladiatus Glitch Global Agenda Global Soccer Gloria Victis Glory of Gods GoGoRacer Goal Line Blitz Gods and Heroes GodsWar Online Golemizer Golf Star GoonZu Online Graal Kingdoms Granado Espada Online Grand Chase Grand Fantasia Grepolis Grimlands Guild Wars Guild Wars 2 Guild Wars Factions Guild Wars Nightfall H1Z1 Habbo Hotel Hailan Rising HaloSphere2 Haven & Hearth Hawken Heart Forth Alicia Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft Helbreath Hellgate Hellgate: London Hello Kitty Online Hero Online Hero Zero Hero's Journey Hero: 108 Online HeroSmash Heroes & Generals Heroes & Legends: Conquerors of Kolhar Heroes in the Sky Heroes of Atlan Heroes of Bestia Heroes of Gaia Heroes of Might and Magic Online Heroes of Thessalonica Heroes of Three Kingdoms Heroes of the Storm Hex Holic Online Hostile Space Hunter Blade Huxley Icewind Dale: Enhanced Edition Illutia Illyriad Immortals USA Imperator Imperian Inferno Legend Infestation: Survivor Stories Infinite Crisis Infinity Infinity Iris Online Iron Grip: Marauders Irth Worlds Island Forge Islands of War Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted Jade Dynasty Jagged Alliance Online Juggernaut Jumpgate Jumpgate Evolution KAL Online Kakele Online Kaos War Karos Online Kartuga Kicks Online King of Kings 3 Kingdom Heroes Kingdom Under Fire II Kingdom of Drakkar Kingory Kings Era Kings and Legends Kings of the Realm KingsRoad Kitsu Saga Kiwarriors Knight Age Knight Online Knights of Dream City Kothuria Kung Foo! Kunlun Online Kyn L.A.W. LEGO Universe La Tale Land of Chaos Online Landmark Lands of Hope: Redemption LastChaos League of Angels League of Legends - Clash of Fates Legend of Edda: Vengeance Legend of Golden Plume Legend of Katha Legend of Mir 2 Legend of Mir 3 Legendary Champions Lego Minifigures Online Lichdom: Battlemage Life is Feudal Light of Nova Lime Odyssey Line of Defense Lineage Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance Lineage II Linkrealms Loong Online Lord of the Rings Online Lords Online Lords of the Fallen Lost Saga Lucent Heart Lunia Lusternia: Age of Ascension Luvinia World
M-Q
MU Online Mabinogi Maestia: Rise of Keledus MagiKnights Magic Barrage Magic World Online Manga Fighter MapleStory Martial Heroes Marvel Heroes Marvel Super Hero Squad Online Marvel: Avengers Alliance Mass Effect 4 MechWarrior Online Megaten Meridian 59 : Evolution Merlin MetalMercs Metaplace Metin 2 MicroVolts Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor Midkemia Online Might & Magic Heroes: Kingdoms Might & Magic X: Legacy MilMo Minecraft Mini Fighter Minions of Mirth Ministry of War Monato Esprit Monkey King Online Monkey Quest Monster & Me Monster Madness Online MonsterMMORPG Moonlight Online: Tales of Eternal Blood Moonrise Mordavia Mortal Online Mourning My Lands Myst Online: URU Live Myth Angels Online Myth War Myth War 2 Mythborne Mytheon Mythic Saga Mythos N.E.O Online NIDA Online Nadirim Naviage: The Power of Capital Navy Field Need for Speed World Nemexia Neo's Land NeoSteam Neocron Nether Neverwinter Nexus: The Kingdom Of The Winds NinjaTrick NosTale Novus Aeterno Oberin Odin Quest Odyssey RPG Ogre Island Omerta 3 Online Boxing Manager Onverse Oort Online Order & Chaos Online Order of Magic Original Blood Origins Return Origins of Malu Orion's Belt Otherland Forums OverSoul Overkings Oz Online Oz World Pandora Saga Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Panzar Parabellum Parallel Kingdom Parfait Station Path of Exile Pathfinder Online Perfect World Perpetuum Online Persona V Phantasy Star Online 2 Phantasy Star Universe Phoenix Dynasty Online Phylon Pi Story Picaroon Pillars of Eternity Pirate Galaxy Pirate Storm Pirate101 PirateKing Online Pirates of the Burning Sea Pirates of the Caribbean Online Pixie Hollow Planeshift Planet Arkadia Planet Calypso PlanetSide 2 Planetside Planets³ Playboy Manager Pocket Legends Pockie Ninja Pockie Pirates Pockie Saints Pokémon X and Y PoxNora Prime World Prime: Battle for Dominus Priston Tale Priston Tale II Prius Online Prodigy Project Blackout Project Gorgon Project Powder Project Titan Forums Project Wiki Project Zomboid Puzzle Pirates Quest for Infamy Quickhit Football
R-S
R2 Online RAN Online RF Online ROSE Online Rage of 3 Kingdoms Ragnarok Online Ragnarok Online II RaiderZ Rail Nation Rakion Rappelz RappelzSEA Ravenmarch Realm Fighter Realm of Sierra Realm of the Mad God Realm of the Titans Realms Online Reclamation Red Stone Red War: Edem's Curse Regnum Online Remnant Knights Renaissance Repulse Requiem: Memento Mori Rift RiotZone Rise Rise of Dragonian Era Rise of Empire Rise of the Tycoon Risen 3: Titan Lords Rising of King Risk Your Life Rivality Rockfree Rohan: Blood Feud Role Play Worlds Roll n Rock Roma Victor Romadoria Rosh Online Roto X Rubies of Eventide Ruin Online Rumble Fighter Runes of Magic Runescape Rust Rusty Hearts Ryzom S4 League SAGA SD Gundam Capsule Fighter Online SMITE SUN Sacred 3 Sagramore Salem SaySayGirls Scarlet Blade Scions of Fate Seal Online: Evolution Second Chance Heroes Second Life Secret of the Solstice Seed Serenia Fantasy Seven Seas Saga Seven Souls Online Sevencore Shadow Realms Shadow of Legend Shadowbane Shadowgate Shadowrun Online Shaiya Shards Online Shattered Galaxy Sho Online Shot Online Shroud of the Avatar SideQuest Siege on Stars Sigonyth: Desert Eternity Silkroad Online Skyblade Skyforge SmashMuck Champions Smoo Online Soldier Front Soul Master Soul Order Online Soul of Guardian South Park: The Stick of Truth Space Heroes Universe Sparta: War of Empires Spellcasters Sphere Spiral Knights Spirit Tales Splash Fighters Squad Wars Star Citizen Star Sonata 2 Star Stable Star Supremacy Star Trek Online Star Trek: Infinite Space Star Wars Galaxies Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures Star Wars: The Old Republic StarQuest Online Starbound Stargate Worlds Starlight Story Starpires State of Decay SteelWar Online Stone Age 2 Stormfall: Age of War Stormthrone Storybricks Stronghold Kingdoms Styx: Master of Shadows Sudden Attack Supremacy 1914 Supreme Destiny Sword Girls Sword of Destiny: Rise of Aions SwordX Swords of Heavens Swordsman
T-Z
TERA TS Online TUG Tabula Rasa Tactica Online Tales Runner Tales of Fantasy Tales of Pirates Tales of Pirates II Tales of Solaris Talisman Online Tamer Saga Tank Ace Tantra Online Tatsumaki: Land at War Terra Militaris TerraWorld Online Terraria Thang Online The 4th Coming The Agency The Aurora World The Banner Saga The Black Watchmen The Chronicle The Chronicles of Spellborn The Crew The Division The Epic Might The Hammers End The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing 2 The Legend of Ares The Lost Titans The Matrix Online The Mighty Quest for Epic Loot The Missing Ink The Mummy Online The Myth of Soma The Pride of Taern The Realm Online The Repopulation The Secret World The Sims Online The Strategems The West The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt Theralon There Therian Saga Thrones of Chaos Tibia Tibia Micro Edition Tiger Knight Titan Siege Titans of Time Toontown Online Top Speed Topia Online Torchlight Torment: Tides of Numenera Total Domination Transformers Universe Transistor Transverse Traveller AR Travia Online Travian Trials of Ascension Tribal Hero Tribal Wars Tribes Universe Trickster Online Trove Troy Online True Fantasy Live Online Turf Battles Twelve Sky Twelve Sky 2 Twilight War Tynon U.B. Funkeys UFO Online URDEAD Online Ultima Forever: Quest for the Avatar Ultima Online Ultima X: Odyssey Ultimate Naruto Ultimate Soccer Boss Uncharted Waters Online Undercover 2: Merc Wars Underlight Unification Wars Universe Online Utopia Valkyrie Sky Vampire Lord Online Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Vanquish Space Vector City Racers Vendetta Online Victory - Age of Racing Vindictus Virtonomics Vis Gladius Visions of Zosimos VoidExpanse Voyage Century Online W.E.L.L. Online WAR (Warhammer Online) WAR2 Glory WYD Global Wakfu War Thunder War of 2012 War of Angels War of Legends War of Mercenaries War of Thrones War of the Immortals WarFlow Waren Story Warflare Wargame1942 Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade Warhammer 40K: Dark Millennium Online Warhammer Online: Wrath of Heroes Warkeepers Warrior Epic Wartune Wasteland 2 WebLords Wild West Online WildStar Wind of Luck WindSlayer 2 Wings of Destiny Wish Wizard101 Wizardry Online Wizards and Champions Wonder King Wonderland Online World Golf Tour World of Battles World of Darkness World of Heroes World of Kung Fu World of Pirates World of Speed World of Tanks World of Tanks Generals World of Warcraft World of Warplanes World of Warships World of the Living Dead WorldAlpha Wurm Online Xenoblade Chronicles: X Xenocell Xiah Xsyon Xulu YS Online Yitien ZU Online Zentia Zero Online Zero Online: The Andromeda Crisis Zodiac Online Zombies Ate My Pizza eRepublik

MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

EVE Online

EVE Online 

Jita (General)  » A fascinating backlash from the community

4 Pages 1 2 3 4 » Search
65 posts found
  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5616

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

 
OP  10/23/13 10:01:33 AM#1

Gevlon wrote this article a while back on Evenews about how there is very little skill involved in Eve's PvP, in general. Now everyone I've talked to about this, be that many year-vet or someone who has merely tried Eve for a couple of months, have more or less agreed with the article. I agree with the article! But what is fascinating is the vitriolic replies in the comment section.

Did the topic strike too close to home? Did someone feel the article was an attack on them personally?

Your thoughts?

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  GrayKodiak

Novice Member

Joined: 11/15/12
Posts: 576

10/23/13 10:11:42 AM#2

Comments, the only reason to read the internet.

 

 

I tend to agree with the author of the article in that most of the large battle "skills" come from planning and not from individual piloting. Though the author does include training the individual pilots as part of that planner's skill set.

  Kaelaan21

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/31/07
Posts: 344

10/23/13 10:25:05 AM#3

I think this article argues Semantics. The author is discrediting the skill in a strategy game.

I do not view DOTA/LoL clones as "strategy" games in the strict sense that many do people seem to today. Strategy is all about using your knowledge wisely to prepare yourself for your next move. Just like in a chess, a wise and skillful Eve player will make sure that targets are chosen wisely for the type of ship they are currently flying. They will also know how to use the UI and manage proper engagement.

A skilled eve pilot will usually have won before the battle has already begun. This is because they know that they are properly equipped to have the upper hand for the target they have chosen. In the event that the battle is evenly matched (such as the tournaments suggested), the skill is all about anticipating what moves your opponent will make next and execute without mistakes.

All games are going to have unskilled players that join the zerg - whether it's a traditional MMO such as WoW, a hardcore MMO such as Darkfall or a strategic MMO such as Eve. But saying that Eve PvP doesn't have skill just because it isn't played with "muscle memory" or twitch skill is kind of silly.

 

This article is like comparing football to chess and saying chess doesn't require skill.

  Hanthos

Novice Member

Joined: 6/17/13
Posts: 228

PROUD P2P Elitist...

10/23/13 10:28:50 AM#4

Eve never has and never will be based on the individual reflexes and agility of it's players. It's not a FPS nor is it a true flight/space sim, rather, it's gameplay is based on the organizational skills, planning and outright deviousness of it's players. I've always thought that it completely leveled the playing field in the age of all the CoD/BF/Halo elitists because a twitchy finger gives you no advantage. Thinking nonstop from the moment you login until the moment you logout is the skillset necessary to succeed.

As far as the backlash, hehehe... That unto itself is part of the charm that is Eve. The first attribute one should upgrade when rolling a new character is: Thick Skin.  Eve does not suffer fools and punishes all. While a lot of the comments are just flaming, have no doubt that there are very smart, calculating people at those keyboards typing them that are prepared to make your life miserable the moment you undock. And that in itself, is a skill...

  goboygo

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/02/13
Posts: 408

10/23/13 10:36:17 AM#5
Originally posted by Hanthos

Eve never has and never will be based on the individual reflexes and agility of it's players. It's not a FPS nor is it a true flight/space sim, rather, it's gameplay is based on the organizational skills, planning and outright deviousness of it's players. I've always thought that it completely leveled the playing field in the age of all the CoD/BF/Halo elitists because a twitchy finger gives you no advantage. Thinking nonstop from the moment you login until the moment you logout is the skillset necessary to succeed.

As far as the backlash, hehehe... That unto itself is part of the charm that is Eve. The first attribute one should upgrade when rolling a new character is: Thick Skin.  Eve does not suffer fools and punishes all. While a lot of the comments are just flaming, have no doubt that there are very smart, calculating people at those keyboards typing them that are prepared to make your life miserable the moment you undock. And that in itself, is a skill...

I want to play a game where people make my gaming experience miserable why?

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12401

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

10/23/13 10:39:12 AM#6
Originally posted by Hanthos

Eve never has and never will be based on the individual reflexes and agility of it's players. It's not a FPS nor is it a true flight/space sim, rather, it's gameplay is based on the organizational skills, planning and outright deviousness of it's players. I've always thought that it completely leveled the playing field in the age of all the CoD/BF/Halo elitists because a twitchy finger gives you no advantage. Thinking nonstop from the moment you login until the moment you logout is the skillset necessary to succeed.

Good points.

As far as 'backlash' is concerned, the comments don't look much different from many of the other articles on EVENews24. Don't get me wrong - I really enjoy reading EVENews24, but there are quite a few articles and authors that always get responses like that there. 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Myria

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/07/09
Posts: 547

10/23/13 10:44:12 AM#7

I'm not really surprised by the bulk of the responses; these are Eve's best and... Ummm... Brightest, after all, but the extreme amount of severe butthurt on display really should be a clue to them. 

  Phry

Elite Member

Joined: 7/01/04
Posts: 5331

10/23/13 10:48:10 AM#8

The guy waffled on about a few things but he didnt really put his argument forward with any real conviction, maybe he just didnt understand. PVP in Eve is not just about 2 ships battling away at each other until one loses, not even close, and that is something that doesnt require skill, that is just a battle of who has the best tank vs dps vs ewar etc. Skill in Eve is not about who can win a fair fight, because there isnt such a thing as one, never has been, and any idiot that gets themselves into a 'fair fight' is probably on the wrong end of a gank

Teamwork, Tactics and 'ship' knowledge, sort of approaches it, i've seen fights that looked unwinnable, but turned into walkovers simply because of the actions of one guy, the FC, probably the most important person in any engagement, but thats just one type of skill, and a hard earned one at that (which i sadly don't have

Theres also the guys out there gathering intel on ship movements, the tacklers the tankers, and the various flavours of ewar, the heavy tackle the dps boats, logistics and whatever, i'd try and list out fleet compositions here but it just isnt practical, the point is it all takes a certain amount of skill to use effectively, rushing in and trusting to 'luck' is a sure fire way of finding yourself in your latest clone.

Saying Eve PvP doesnt require skill is kind of dumb, almost like the guy who preys on miners, steals a bit of ore from them and gets themselves flagged as a criminal, to bait them, only to have a couple of ships uncloak and scramble/web them and then kill his ship for him, and then they complain they were 'ganked' .. they so totally were, but.. no skill involved, nope, none at all

  Hanthos

Novice Member

Joined: 6/17/13
Posts: 228

PROUD P2P Elitist...

10/23/13 10:49:50 AM#9
Originally posted by goboygo
Originally posted by Hanthos

Eve never has and never will be based on the individual reflexes and agility of it's players. It's not a FPS nor is it a true flight/space sim, rather, it's gameplay is based on the organizational skills, planning and outright deviousness of it's players. I've always thought that it completely leveled the playing field in the age of all the CoD/BF/Halo elitists because a twitchy finger gives you no advantage. Thinking nonstop from the moment you login until the moment you logout is the skillset necessary to succeed.

As far as the backlash, hehehe... That unto itself is part of the charm that is Eve. The first attribute one should upgrade when rolling a new character is: Thick Skin.  Eve does not suffer fools and punishes all. While a lot of the comments are just flaming, have no doubt that there are very smart, calculating people at those keyboards typing them that are prepared to make your life miserable the moment you undock. And that in itself, is a skill...

I want to play a game where people make my gaming experience miserable why?

Not trying to be sarcastic, but; to reciprocate. I would ask if you've ever played Eve? Eve is it's own special little animal in the mmo-sphere and I really don't think it can be compared to any other game out there. Part of what makes Eve the game that it is, is that there are people committed to causing pain and grief to any they encounter and daring you to respond in kind. Most games throw PvP into their game mechanics in a vain attempt to draw in a certain demographic of player and always wind up pissing off both the PvE and PvP crowd. Eve is (currently) in my opinion the only game that makes PvP an integrated mechanic that has meaning. I would say that if you are asking the question then the playstyle is definitely not the experience that you're looking for.

It's just different strokes for different folks.

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5616

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

 
OP  10/23/13 10:51:27 AM#10

Originally posted by Hanthos

Eve never has and never will be based on the individual reflexes and agility of it's players. It's not a FPS nor is it a true flight/space sim, rather, it's gameplay is based on the organizational skills, planning and outright deviousness of it's players. I've always thought that it completely leveled the playing field in the age of all the CoD/BF/Halo elitists because a twitchy finger gives you no advantage. Thinking nonstop from the moment you login until the moment you logout is the skillset necessary to succeed.

As far as the backlash, hehehe... That unto itself is part of the charm that is Eve. The first attribute one should upgrade when rolling a new character is: Thick Skin.  Eve does not suffer fools and punishes all. While a lot of the comments are just flaming, have no doubt that there are very smart, calculating people at those keyboards typing them that are prepared to make your life miserable the moment you undock. And that in itself, is a skill...


Originally posted by Kaelaan21

I think this article argues Semantics. The author is discrediting the skill in a strategy game.

I do not view DOTA/LoL clones as "strategy" games in the strict sense that many do people seem to today. Strategy is all about using your knowledge wisely to prepare yourself for your next move. Just like in a chess, a wise and skillful Eve player will make sure that targets are chosen wisely for the type of ship they are currently flying. They will also know how to use the UI and manage proper engagement.

A skilled eve pilot will usually have won before the battle has already begun. This is because they know that they are properly equipped to have the upper hand for the target they have chosen. In the event that the battle is evenly matched (such as the tournaments suggested), the skill is all about anticipating what moves your opponent will make next and execute without mistakes.

All games are going to have unskilled players that join the zerg - whether it's a traditional MMO such as WoW, a hardcore MMO such as Darkfall or a strategic MMO such as Eve. But saying that Eve PvP doesn't have skill just because it isn't played with "muscle memory" or twitch skill is kind of silly.

 

This article is like comparing football to chess and saying chess doesn't require skill.

The article talked about player skill, not just twitch and muscle memory. There is a degree of mechanical expertise in every game you must obtain to be good, but every game also has a degree of mental expertise as well. And while games like LoL, Starcraft and Street Fighter may need a high level of mechanical skill, that doesn't mean those games require any less mental skill; thus, a game like Eve Online may need less skill, in general, than any of the games mentioned.

 

Make all the bookmarks, do the scouting, organize the fleet, be ready to deploy or have it deployed if you have anything to deploy, make sure fleet boosters are in place, set up target callers, anchors, warp-ins... Often it is like going through a checklist. How does preparing take skill if it is just a chore?

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Theocritus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 3616

10/23/13 10:51:35 AM#11
Originally posted by goboygo
Originally posted by Hanthos

Eve never has and never will be based on the individual reflexes and agility of it's players. It's not a FPS nor is it a true flight/space sim, rather, it's gameplay is based on the organizational skills, planning and outright deviousness of it's players. I've always thought that it completely leveled the playing field in the age of all the CoD/BF/Halo elitists because a twitchy finger gives you no advantage. Thinking nonstop from the moment you login until the moment you logout is the skillset necessary to succeed.

As far as the backlash, hehehe... That unto itself is part of the charm that is Eve. The first attribute one should upgrade when rolling a new character is: Thick Skin.  Eve does not suffer fools and punishes all. While a lot of the comments are just flaming, have no doubt that there are very smart, calculating people at those keyboards typing them that are prepared to make your life miserable the moment you undock. And that in itself, is a skill...

I want to play a game where people make my gaming experience miserable why?

 Not only that but people pay for that........Eve is the ultimate "let me ruin your fun" game, and I could never see what was any fun about it to begin with.

  aesperus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4779

10/23/13 10:56:00 AM#12
Originally posted by Quirhid

Gevlon wrote this article a while back on Evenews about how there is very little skill involved in Eve's PvP, in general. Now everyone I've talked to about this, be that many year-vet or someone who has merely tried Eve for a couple of months, have more or less agreed with the article. I agree with the article! But what is fascinating is the vitriolic replies in the comment section.

Did the topic strike too close to home? Did someone feel the article was an attack on them personally?

Your thoughts?

 I do agree with the article.

The reason most people get so worked about discussions like these, is because they tend to take them personally. Pointing out that a game lacks skill, or is indeed 'simple', is often translated into a global statement of 'you all suck' or 'you all like bad games'.

It's a maturity issue. Some people understand that there is a difference between enjoying a low skill-cap game, and being unskillful yourself. Just being good or bad at a game doesn't really matter for 99% of the people playing them (the 1% being those that play them on a competitive-professional level). Some players assume that how good a game is, is a reflection of how good or bad they are as a person. Which isn't true. However, because so many people believe it is, they will argue to death multiple times over to try and justify the games they play.

  User Deleted
10/23/13 11:06:04 AM#13

EvE is a strategy game at its core. There is skill involved, but its not the same skill as an action game.

  theAsna

Novice Member

Joined: 7/16/09
Posts: 303

10/23/13 11:06:07 AM#14

 

Dunno, I could imagine that the author of the linked article might be happier with something like a flight simulator where he "sits inside the cockpit" and flies the plane and has maybe a navigator at his side who takes care of the rest. Maybe there he might get a feeling that speedy reactions, dodging attacks and "reading" your opponents are vital.

 

Besides skill has a broad meaning, e.g. skillful at a strategy game, skilled craftsman, skillful at some physical sport, etc. Skill simply means a good understanding or mastery of a certain discipline (whether it involves physical or mental traits).

  aesperus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4779

10/23/13 11:25:09 AM#15
Originally posted by Kaelaan21

I think this article argues Semantics. The author is discrediting the skill in a strategy game.

I do not view DOTA/LoL clones as "strategy" games in the strict sense that many do people seem to today. Strategy is all about using your knowledge wisely to prepare yourself for your next move. Just like in a chess, a wise and skillful Eve player will make sure that targets are chosen wisely for the type of ship they are currently flying. They will also know how to use the UI and manage proper engagement.

A skilled eve pilot will usually have won before the battle has already begun. This is because they know that they are properly equipped to have the upper hand for the target they have chosen. In the event that the battle is evenly matched (such as the tournaments suggested), the skill is all about anticipating what moves your opponent will make next and execute without mistakes.

All games are going to have unskilled players that join the zerg - whether it's a traditional MMO such as WoW, a hardcore MMO such as Darkfall or a strategic MMO such as Eve. But saying that Eve PvP doesn't have skill just because it isn't played with "muscle memory" or twitch skill is kind of silly.

This article is like comparing football to chess and saying chess doesn't require skill.

The thing is, there are multiple different kinds of skill.

Reaction / Timing

Strategy / Planning

Teamwork / Coordination

Aiming / Accuracy

Positioning

Efficiency / Speed

Prediction

A game like Eve typically has 2 types of skill, 3 at the most (positioning, planning, teamwork). A game like chess has more (especially if you are playing speed chess). Strategy, Planning, Efficiency, Prediction, Positioning. Now, a game like DotA has more types of skill than that: Reaction, Timing, Strategy, Planning, Teamwork, Coordination, Accuracy, Positioning, Efficiency, Speed, Prediction. However, not all MOBAs are the same, and indeed some (like LoL, or SMITE) still have a lot of skill types involved, but less of a skill cap (as you have to keep track of less things in order to be competitive).

Now, that doesn't mean that all types of skill are represented equally across all games. For example, chess often involves predicting a multitude of moves ahead, and is indeed known for having one of the highest skill-caps for strategy. However Eve's skill relies mostly in the preparation (stockpiling ships & resources), and then later positioning. Much less complex or involved.

MOBAs, on the other hand, have less strategy / predicting than chess; but they are also confined to limited resources, yet also have many levels of prediction, preparation, and strategy. The first level being the draft (which heroes you pick, deteremines what you're capable of, and which weaknesses you will have to deal with. That's the first layer of strategy and counter-strategy. Second, you have your item build (which changes dynamically to accommodate the situation). You then have things like skill builds, combo attacks, last hits / denies, warding & counter warding, ganking & counter-ganking, micro-managing minions, items, efficienctly balancing the economy (kills vs. farming vs. roaming). It's a lot more involved than I think most people realize. And indeed the average person does not play these games on such an advanced level.

- Thing is, Eve does have skill, but for more competitive players, it might not be enough. Some games are more complex than others, and some players enjoy games that are more demanding than others.

 

 

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5616

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

 
OP  10/23/13 11:34:48 AM#16
Originally posted by aesperus
Originally posted by Kaelaan21

I think this article argues Semantics. The author is discrediting the skill in a strategy game.

I do not view DOTA/LoL clones as "strategy" games in the strict sense that many do people seem to today. Strategy is all about using your knowledge wisely to prepare yourself for your next move. Just like in a chess, a wise and skillful Eve player will make sure that targets are chosen wisely for the type of ship they are currently flying. They will also know how to use the UI and manage proper engagement.

A skilled eve pilot will usually have won before the battle has already begun. This is because they know that they are properly equipped to have the upper hand for the target they have chosen. In the event that the battle is evenly matched (such as the tournaments suggested), the skill is all about anticipating what moves your opponent will make next and execute without mistakes.

All games are going to have unskilled players that join the zerg - whether it's a traditional MMO such as WoW, a hardcore MMO such as Darkfall or a strategic MMO such as Eve. But saying that Eve PvP doesn't have skill just because it isn't played with "muscle memory" or twitch skill is kind of silly.

This article is like comparing football to chess and saying chess doesn't require skill.

The thing is, there are multiple different kinds of skill.

Reaction / Timing

Strategy / Planning

Teamwork / Coordination

Aiming / Accuracy

Positioning

Efficiency / Speed

Prediction

A game like Eve typically has 2 types of skill, 3 at the most (positioning, planning, teamwork). A game like chess has more (especially if you are playing speed chess). Strategy, Planning, Efficiency, Prediction, Positioning. Now, a game like DotA has more types of skill than that: Reaction, Timing, Strategy, Planning, Teamwork, Coordination, Accuracy, Positioning, Efficiency, Speed, Prediction. However, not all MOBAs are the same, and indeed some (like LoL, or SMITE) still have a lot of skill types involved, but less of a skill cap (as you have to keep track of less things in order to be competitive).

Now, that doesn't mean that all types of skill are represented equally across all games. For example, chess often involves predicting a multitude of moves ahead, and is indeed known for having one of the highest skill-caps for strategy. However Eve's skill relies mostly in the preparation (stockpiling ships & resources), and then later positioning. Much less complex or involved.

MOBAs, on the other hand, have less strategy / predicting than chess; but they are also confined to limited resources, yet also have many levels of prediction, preparation, and strategy. The first level being the draft (which heroes you pick, deteremines what you're capable of, and which weaknesses you will have to deal with. That's the first layer of strategy and counter-strategy. Second, you have your item build (which changes dynamically to accommodate the situation). You then have things like skill builds, combo attacks, last hits / denies, warding & counter warding, ganking & counter-ganking, micro-managing minions, items, efficienctly balancing the economy (kills vs. farming vs. roaming). It's a lot more involved than I think most people realize. And indeed the average person does not play these games on such an advanced level.

- Thing is, Eve does have skill, but for more competitive players, it might not be enough. Some games are more complex than others, and some players enjoy games that are more demanding than others.

I think you should add "routines" both mental and mechanical into your list somewhere there, but for the most part I agree with your post. Good points.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  SpottyGekko

Elite Member

Joined: 9/26/04
Posts: 2956

10/23/13 11:49:36 AM#17

EVE is a game of Grand Strategy, and it's the finest example of that style available in massively multiplayer genres.

 

MOBA's are not strategic, they're tactical. Now some people with high twitch skills will try to argue semantics and insist that "tactics" is nothing else than "strategy" performed very quickly, but that's usually just an attempt to make themselves look superior on all fronts 

 

  aspekx

Novice Member

Joined: 12/24/05
Posts: 2197

10/23/13 12:01:06 PM#18
Originally posted by GrayKodiak

Comments, the only reason to read the internet.

its the main reason i read forums :) 

"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12401

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

10/23/13 12:17:14 PM#19
Originally posted by aesperus
Originally posted by Kaelaan21

I think this article argues Semantics. The author is discrediting the skill in a strategy game.

I do not view DOTA/LoL clones as "strategy" games in the strict sense that many do people seem to today. Strategy is all about using your knowledge wisely to prepare yourself for your next move. Just like in a chess, a wise and skillful Eve player will make sure that targets are chosen wisely for the type of ship they are currently flying. They will also know how to use the UI and manage proper engagement.

A skilled eve pilot will usually have won before the battle has already begun. This is because they know that they are properly equipped to have the upper hand for the target they have chosen. In the event that the battle is evenly matched (such as the tournaments suggested), the skill is all about anticipating what moves your opponent will make next and execute without mistakes.

All games are going to have unskilled players that join the zerg - whether it's a traditional MMO such as WoW, a hardcore MMO such as Darkfall or a strategic MMO such as Eve. But saying that Eve PvP doesn't have skill just because it isn't played with "muscle memory" or twitch skill is kind of silly.

This article is like comparing football to chess and saying chess doesn't require skill.

The thing is, there are multiple different kinds of skill.

Reaction / Timing

Strategy / Planning

Teamwork / Coordination

Aiming / Accuracy

Positioning

Efficiency / Speed

Prediction

A game like Eve typically has 2 types of skill, 3 at the most (positioning, planning, teamwork). A game like chess has more (especially if you are playing speed chess). Strategy, Planning, Efficiency, Prediction, Positioning. Now, a game like DotA has more types of skill than that: Reaction, Timing, Strategy, Planning, Teamwork, Coordination, Accuracy, Positioning, Efficiency, Speed, Prediction. However, not all MOBAs are the same, and indeed some (like LoL, or SMITE) still have a lot of skill types involved, but less of a skill cap (as you have to keep track of less things in order to be competitive).

Now, that doesn't mean that all types of skill are represented equally across all games. For example, chess often involves predicting a multitude of moves ahead, and is indeed known for having one of the highest skill-caps for strategy. However Eve's skill relies mostly in the preparation (stockpiling ships & resources), and then later positioning. Much less complex or involved.

MOBAs, on the other hand, have less strategy / predicting than chess; but they are also confined to limited resources, yet also have many levels of prediction, preparation, and strategy. The first level being the draft (which heroes you pick, deteremines what you're capable of, and which weaknesses you will have to deal with. That's the first layer of strategy and counter-strategy. Second, you have your item build (which changes dynamically to accommodate the situation). You then have things like skill builds, combo attacks, last hits / denies, warding & counter warding, ganking & counter-ganking, micro-managing minions, items, efficienctly balancing the economy (kills vs. farming vs. roaming). It's a lot more involved than I think most people realize. And indeed the average person does not play these games on such an advanced level.

- Thing is, Eve does have skill, but for more competitive players, it might not be enough. Some games are more complex than others, and some players enjoy games that are more demanding than others.

If you are comparing a single battle in EVE to a game of chess or a match in a MOBA, then I agree with much of your assessment. However, EVE gameplay, and a player's/team's strategies for success/victory, are on a much larger scale than that single battle. Some may not even be about the individual battle at all. Social engineering, diplomacy and even some of the aspects you dismiss (timing, efficiency, prediction) are all part of the skills needed to succeed in various aspects of EVE, especially PVP. 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  bcbully

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7314

10/23/13 12:39:51 PM#20
Is strategy, skill? How about preparation? 

When I eat chocolate chip pie it just doesn't feel like chocolate chip cookies. The texture, the consistency, it's just not the same and this is disappointing.

4 Pages 1 2 3 4 » Search