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Jita (General)  » A fascinating backlash from the community

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65 posts found
  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5375

I dare you to pin a label on me.

 
OP  10/23/13 10:01:33 AM#1

Gevlon wrote this article a while back on Evenews about how there is very little skill involved in Eve's PvP, in general. Now everyone I've talked to about this, be that many year-vet or someone who has merely tried Eve for a couple of months, have more or less agreed with the article. I agree with the article! But what is fascinating is the vitriolic replies in the comment section.

Did the topic strike too close to home? Did someone feel the article was an attack on them personally?

Your thoughts?

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  GrayKodiak

Novice Member

Joined: 11/15/12
Posts: 576

10/23/13 10:11:42 AM#2

Comments, the only reason to read the internet.

 

 

I tend to agree with the author of the article in that most of the large battle "skills" come from planning and not from individual piloting. Though the author does include training the individual pilots as part of that planner's skill set.

  Kaelaan21

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/31/07
Posts: 336

10/23/13 10:25:05 AM#3

I think this article argues Semantics. The author is discrediting the skill in a strategy game.

I do not view DOTA/LoL clones as "strategy" games in the strict sense that many do people seem to today. Strategy is all about using your knowledge wisely to prepare yourself for your next move. Just like in a chess, a wise and skillful Eve player will make sure that targets are chosen wisely for the type of ship they are currently flying. They will also know how to use the UI and manage proper engagement.

A skilled eve pilot will usually have won before the battle has already begun. This is because they know that they are properly equipped to have the upper hand for the target they have chosen. In the event that the battle is evenly matched (such as the tournaments suggested), the skill is all about anticipating what moves your opponent will make next and execute without mistakes.

All games are going to have unskilled players that join the zerg - whether it's a traditional MMO such as WoW, a hardcore MMO such as Darkfall or a strategic MMO such as Eve. But saying that Eve PvP doesn't have skill just because it isn't played with "muscle memory" or twitch skill is kind of silly.

 

This article is like comparing football to chess and saying chess doesn't require skill.

  Hanthos

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/17/13
Posts: 215

PROUD P2P Elitist...

10/23/13 10:28:50 AM#4

Eve never has and never will be based on the individual reflexes and agility of it's players. It's not a FPS nor is it a true flight/space sim, rather, it's gameplay is based on the organizational skills, planning and outright deviousness of it's players. I've always thought that it completely leveled the playing field in the age of all the CoD/BF/Halo elitists because a twitchy finger gives you no advantage. Thinking nonstop from the moment you login until the moment you logout is the skillset necessary to succeed.

As far as the backlash, hehehe... That unto itself is part of the charm that is Eve. The first attribute one should upgrade when rolling a new character is: Thick Skin.  Eve does not suffer fools and punishes all. While a lot of the comments are just flaming, have no doubt that there are very smart, calculating people at those keyboards typing them that are prepared to make your life miserable the moment you undock. And that in itself, is a skill...

  goboygo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/02/13
Posts: 261

10/23/13 10:36:17 AM#5
Originally posted by Hanthos

Eve never has and never will be based on the individual reflexes and agility of it's players. It's not a FPS nor is it a true flight/space sim, rather, it's gameplay is based on the organizational skills, planning and outright deviousness of it's players. I've always thought that it completely leveled the playing field in the age of all the CoD/BF/Halo elitists because a twitchy finger gives you no advantage. Thinking nonstop from the moment you login until the moment you logout is the skillset necessary to succeed.

As far as the backlash, hehehe... That unto itself is part of the charm that is Eve. The first attribute one should upgrade when rolling a new character is: Thick Skin.  Eve does not suffer fools and punishes all. While a lot of the comments are just flaming, have no doubt that there are very smart, calculating people at those keyboards typing them that are prepared to make your life miserable the moment you undock. And that in itself, is a skill...

I want to play a game where people make my gaming experience miserable why?

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11360

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

10/23/13 10:39:12 AM#6
Originally posted by Hanthos

Eve never has and never will be based on the individual reflexes and agility of it's players. It's not a FPS nor is it a true flight/space sim, rather, it's gameplay is based on the organizational skills, planning and outright deviousness of it's players. I've always thought that it completely leveled the playing field in the age of all the CoD/BF/Halo elitists because a twitchy finger gives you no advantage. Thinking nonstop from the moment you login until the moment you logout is the skillset necessary to succeed.

Good points.

As far as 'backlash' is concerned, the comments don't look much different from many of the other articles on EVENews24. Don't get me wrong - I really enjoy reading EVENews24, but there are quite a few articles and authors that always get responses like that there. 

  Myria

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/07/09
Posts: 485

10/23/13 10:44:12 AM#7

I'm not really surprised by the bulk of the responses; these are Eve's best and... Ummm... Brightest, after all, but the extreme amount of severe butthurt on display really should be a clue to them. 

  Phry

Elite Member

Joined: 7/01/04
Posts: 4734

10/23/13 10:48:10 AM#8

The guy waffled on about a few things but he didnt really put his argument forward with any real conviction, maybe he just didnt understand. PVP in Eve is not just about 2 ships battling away at each other until one loses, not even close, and that is something that doesnt require skill, that is just a battle of who has the best tank vs dps vs ewar etc. Skill in Eve is not about who can win a fair fight, because there isnt such a thing as one, never has been, and any idiot that gets themselves into a 'fair fight' is probably on the wrong end of a gank

Teamwork, Tactics and 'ship' knowledge, sort of approaches it, i've seen fights that looked unwinnable, but turned into walkovers simply because of the actions of one guy, the FC, probably the most important person in any engagement, but thats just one type of skill, and a hard earned one at that (which i sadly don't have

Theres also the guys out there gathering intel on ship movements, the tacklers the tankers, and the various flavours of ewar, the heavy tackle the dps boats, logistics and whatever, i'd try and list out fleet compositions here but it just isnt practical, the point is it all takes a certain amount of skill to use effectively, rushing in and trusting to 'luck' is a sure fire way of finding yourself in your latest clone.

Saying Eve PvP doesnt require skill is kind of dumb, almost like the guy who preys on miners, steals a bit of ore from them and gets themselves flagged as a criminal, to bait them, only to have a couple of ships uncloak and scramble/web them and then kill his ship for him, and then they complain they were 'ganked' .. they so totally were, but.. no skill involved, nope, none at all

  Hanthos

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/17/13
Posts: 215

PROUD P2P Elitist...

10/23/13 10:49:50 AM#9
Originally posted by goboygo
Originally posted by Hanthos

Eve never has and never will be based on the individual reflexes and agility of it's players. It's not a FPS nor is it a true flight/space sim, rather, it's gameplay is based on the organizational skills, planning and outright deviousness of it's players. I've always thought that it completely leveled the playing field in the age of all the CoD/BF/Halo elitists because a twitchy finger gives you no advantage. Thinking nonstop from the moment you login until the moment you logout is the skillset necessary to succeed.

As far as the backlash, hehehe... That unto itself is part of the charm that is Eve. The first attribute one should upgrade when rolling a new character is: Thick Skin.  Eve does not suffer fools and punishes all. While a lot of the comments are just flaming, have no doubt that there are very smart, calculating people at those keyboards typing them that are prepared to make your life miserable the moment you undock. And that in itself, is a skill...

I want to play a game where people make my gaming experience miserable why?

Not trying to be sarcastic, but; to reciprocate. I would ask if you've ever played Eve? Eve is it's own special little animal in the mmo-sphere and I really don't think it can be compared to any other game out there. Part of what makes Eve the game that it is, is that there are people committed to causing pain and grief to any they encounter and daring you to respond in kind. Most games throw PvP into their game mechanics in a vain attempt to draw in a certain demographic of player and always wind up pissing off both the PvE and PvP crowd. Eve is (currently) in my opinion the only game that makes PvP an integrated mechanic that has meaning. I would say that if you are asking the question then the playstyle is definitely not the experience that you're looking for.

It's just different strokes for different folks.

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5375

I dare you to pin a label on me.

 
OP  10/23/13 10:51:27 AM#10

Originally posted by Hanthos

Eve never has and never will be based on the individual reflexes and agility of it's players. It's not a FPS nor is it a true flight/space sim, rather, it's gameplay is based on the organizational skills, planning and outright deviousness of it's players. I've always thought that it completely leveled the playing field in the age of all the CoD/BF/Halo elitists because a twitchy finger gives you no advantage. Thinking nonstop from the moment you login until the moment you logout is the skillset necessary to succeed.

As far as the backlash, hehehe... That unto itself is part of the charm that is Eve. The first attribute one should upgrade when rolling a new character is: Thick Skin.  Eve does not suffer fools and punishes all. While a lot of the comments are just flaming, have no doubt that there are very smart, calculating people at those keyboards typing them that are prepared to make your life miserable the moment you undock. And that in itself, is a skill...


Originally posted by Kaelaan21

I think this article argues Semantics. The author is discrediting the skill in a strategy game.

I do not view DOTA/LoL clones as "strategy" games in the strict sense that many do people seem to today. Strategy is all about using your knowledge wisely to prepare yourself for your next move. Just like in a chess, a wise and skillful Eve player will make sure that targets are chosen wisely for the type of ship they are currently flying. They will also know how to use the UI and manage proper engagement.

A skilled eve pilot will usually have won before the battle has already begun. This is because they know that they are properly equipped to have the upper hand for the target they have chosen. In the event that the battle is evenly matched (such as the tournaments suggested), the skill is all about anticipating what moves your opponent will make next and execute without mistakes.

All games are going to have unskilled players that join the zerg - whether it's a traditional MMO such as WoW, a hardcore MMO such as Darkfall or a strategic MMO such as Eve. But saying that Eve PvP doesn't have skill just because it isn't played with "muscle memory" or twitch skill is kind of silly.

 

This article is like comparing football to chess and saying chess doesn't require skill.

The article talked about player skill, not just twitch and muscle memory. There is a degree of mechanical expertise in every game you must obtain to be good, but every game also has a degree of mental expertise as well. And while games like LoL, Starcraft and Street Fighter may need a high level of mechanical skill, that doesn't mean those games require any less mental skill; thus, a game like Eve Online may need less skill, in general, than any of the games mentioned.

 

Make all the bookmarks, do the scouting, organize the fleet, be ready to deploy or have it deployed if you have anything to deploy, make sure fleet boosters are in place, set up target callers, anchors, warp-ins... Often it is like going through a checklist. How does preparing take skill if it is just a chore?

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Theocritus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 3541

10/23/13 10:51:35 AM#11
Originally posted by goboygo
Originally posted by Hanthos

Eve never has and never will be based on the individual reflexes and agility of it's players. It's not a FPS nor is it a true flight/space sim, rather, it's gameplay is based on the organizational skills, planning and outright deviousness of it's players. I've always thought that it completely leveled the playing field in the age of all the CoD/BF/Halo elitists because a twitchy finger gives you no advantage. Thinking nonstop from the moment you login until the moment you logout is the skillset necessary to succeed.

As far as the backlash, hehehe... That unto itself is part of the charm that is Eve. The first attribute one should upgrade when rolling a new character is: Thick Skin.  Eve does not suffer fools and punishes all. While a lot of the comments are just flaming, have no doubt that there are very smart, calculating people at those keyboards typing them that are prepared to make your life miserable the moment you undock. And that in itself, is a skill...

I want to play a game where people make my gaming experience miserable why?

 Not only that but people pay for that........Eve is the ultimate "let me ruin your fun" game, and I could never see what was any fun about it to begin with.

  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4508

10/23/13 10:56:00 AM#12
Originally posted by Quirhid

Gevlon wrote this article a while back on Evenews about how there is very little skill involved in Eve's PvP, in general. Now everyone I've talked to about this, be that many year-vet or someone who has merely tried Eve for a couple of months, have more or less agreed with the article. I agree with the article! But what is fascinating is the vitriolic replies in the comment section.

Did the topic strike too close to home? Did someone feel the article was an attack on them personally?

Your thoughts?

 I do agree with the article.

The reason most people get so worked about discussions like these, is because they tend to take them personally. Pointing out that a game lacks skill, or is indeed 'simple', is often translated into a global statement of 'you all suck' or 'you all like bad games'.

It's a maturity issue. Some people understand that there is a difference between enjoying a low skill-cap game, and being unskillful yourself. Just being good or bad at a game doesn't really matter for 99% of the people playing them (the 1% being those that play them on a competitive-professional level). Some players assume that how good a game is, is a reflection of how good or bad they are as a person. Which isn't true. However, because so many people believe it is, they will argue to death multiple times over to try and justify the games they play.

  Foomerang

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/10/05
Posts: 4294

A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still

10/23/13 11:06:04 AM#13

EvE is a strategy game at its core. There is skill involved, but its not the same skill as an action game.

If you thought the events were dynamic, you'll think the stories are living.

  theAsna

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/16/09
Posts: 297

10/23/13 11:06:07 AM#14

 

Dunno, I could imagine that the author of the linked article might be happier with something like a flight simulator where he "sits inside the cockpit" and flies the plane and has maybe a navigator at his side who takes care of the rest. Maybe there he might get a feeling that speedy reactions, dodging attacks and "reading" your opponents are vital.

 

Besides skill has a broad meaning, e.g. skillful at a strategy game, skilled craftsman, skillful at some physical sport, etc. Skill simply means a good understanding or mastery of a certain discipline (whether it involves physical or mental traits).

  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4508

10/23/13 11:25:09 AM#15
Originally posted by Kaelaan21

I think this article argues Semantics. The author is discrediting the skill in a strategy game.

I do not view DOTA/LoL clones as "strategy" games in the strict sense that many do people seem to today. Strategy is all about using your knowledge wisely to prepare yourself for your next move. Just like in a chess, a wise and skillful Eve player will make sure that targets are chosen wisely for the type of ship they are currently flying. They will also know how to use the UI and manage proper engagement.

A skilled eve pilot will usually have won before the battle has already begun. This is because they know that they are properly equipped to have the upper hand for the target they have chosen. In the event that the battle is evenly matched (such as the tournaments suggested), the skill is all about anticipating what moves your opponent will make next and execute without mistakes.

All games are going to have unskilled players that join the zerg - whether it's a traditional MMO such as WoW, a hardcore MMO such as Darkfall or a strategic MMO such as Eve. But saying that Eve PvP doesn't have skill just because it isn't played with "muscle memory" or twitch skill is kind of silly.

This article is like comparing football to chess and saying chess doesn't require skill.

The thing is, there are multiple different kinds of skill.

Reaction / Timing

Strategy / Planning

Teamwork / Coordination

Aiming / Accuracy

Positioning

Efficiency / Speed

Prediction

A game like Eve typically has 2 types of skill, 3 at the most (positioning, planning, teamwork). A game like chess has more (especially if you are playing speed chess). Strategy, Planning, Efficiency, Prediction, Positioning. Now, a game like DotA has more types of skill than that: Reaction, Timing, Strategy, Planning, Teamwork, Coordination, Accuracy, Positioning, Efficiency, Speed, Prediction. However, not all MOBAs are the same, and indeed some (like LoL, or SMITE) still have a lot of skill types involved, but less of a skill cap (as you have to keep track of less things in order to be competitive).

Now, that doesn't mean that all types of skill are represented equally across all games. For example, chess often involves predicting a multitude of moves ahead, and is indeed known for having one of the highest skill-caps for strategy. However Eve's skill relies mostly in the preparation (stockpiling ships & resources), and then later positioning. Much less complex or involved.

MOBAs, on the other hand, have less strategy / predicting than chess; but they are also confined to limited resources, yet also have many levels of prediction, preparation, and strategy. The first level being the draft (which heroes you pick, deteremines what you're capable of, and which weaknesses you will have to deal with. That's the first layer of strategy and counter-strategy. Second, you have your item build (which changes dynamically to accommodate the situation). You then have things like skill builds, combo attacks, last hits / denies, warding & counter warding, ganking & counter-ganking, micro-managing minions, items, efficienctly balancing the economy (kills vs. farming vs. roaming). It's a lot more involved than I think most people realize. And indeed the average person does not play these games on such an advanced level.

- Thing is, Eve does have skill, but for more competitive players, it might not be enough. Some games are more complex than others, and some players enjoy games that are more demanding than others.

 

 

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5375

I dare you to pin a label on me.

 
OP  10/23/13 11:34:48 AM#16
Originally posted by aesperus
Originally posted by Kaelaan21

I think this article argues Semantics. The author is discrediting the skill in a strategy game.

I do not view DOTA/LoL clones as "strategy" games in the strict sense that many do people seem to today. Strategy is all about using your knowledge wisely to prepare yourself for your next move. Just like in a chess, a wise and skillful Eve player will make sure that targets are chosen wisely for the type of ship they are currently flying. They will also know how to use the UI and manage proper engagement.

A skilled eve pilot will usually have won before the battle has already begun. This is because they know that they are properly equipped to have the upper hand for the target they have chosen. In the event that the battle is evenly matched (such as the tournaments suggested), the skill is all about anticipating what moves your opponent will make next and execute without mistakes.

All games are going to have unskilled players that join the zerg - whether it's a traditional MMO such as WoW, a hardcore MMO such as Darkfall or a strategic MMO such as Eve. But saying that Eve PvP doesn't have skill just because it isn't played with "muscle memory" or twitch skill is kind of silly.

This article is like comparing football to chess and saying chess doesn't require skill.

The thing is, there are multiple different kinds of skill.

Reaction / Timing

Strategy / Planning

Teamwork / Coordination

Aiming / Accuracy

Positioning

Efficiency / Speed

Prediction

A game like Eve typically has 2 types of skill, 3 at the most (positioning, planning, teamwork). A game like chess has more (especially if you are playing speed chess). Strategy, Planning, Efficiency, Prediction, Positioning. Now, a game like DotA has more types of skill than that: Reaction, Timing, Strategy, Planning, Teamwork, Coordination, Accuracy, Positioning, Efficiency, Speed, Prediction. However, not all MOBAs are the same, and indeed some (like LoL, or SMITE) still have a lot of skill types involved, but less of a skill cap (as you have to keep track of less things in order to be competitive).

Now, that doesn't mean that all types of skill are represented equally across all games. For example, chess often involves predicting a multitude of moves ahead, and is indeed known for having one of the highest skill-caps for strategy. However Eve's skill relies mostly in the preparation (stockpiling ships & resources), and then later positioning. Much less complex or involved.

MOBAs, on the other hand, have less strategy / predicting than chess; but they are also confined to limited resources, yet also have many levels of prediction, preparation, and strategy. The first level being the draft (which heroes you pick, deteremines what you're capable of, and which weaknesses you will have to deal with. That's the first layer of strategy and counter-strategy. Second, you have your item build (which changes dynamically to accommodate the situation). You then have things like skill builds, combo attacks, last hits / denies, warding & counter warding, ganking & counter-ganking, micro-managing minions, items, efficienctly balancing the economy (kills vs. farming vs. roaming). It's a lot more involved than I think most people realize. And indeed the average person does not play these games on such an advanced level.

- Thing is, Eve does have skill, but for more competitive players, it might not be enough. Some games are more complex than others, and some players enjoy games that are more demanding than others.

I think you should add "routines" both mental and mechanical into your list somewhere there, but for the most part I agree with your post. Good points.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  SpottyGekko

Elite Member

Joined: 9/26/04
Posts: 2440

10/23/13 11:49:36 AM#17

EVE is a game of Grand Strategy, and it's the finest example of that style available in massively multiplayer genres.

 

MOBA's are not strategic, they're tactical. Now some people with high twitch skills will try to argue semantics and insist that "tactics" is nothing else than "strategy" performed very quickly, but that's usually just an attempt to make themselves look superior on all fronts 

 

  aspekx

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/24/05
Posts: 2141

10/23/13 12:01:06 PM#18
Originally posted by GrayKodiak

Comments, the only reason to read the internet.

its the main reason i read forums :) 

"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11360

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

10/23/13 12:17:14 PM#19
Originally posted by aesperus
Originally posted by Kaelaan21

I think this article argues Semantics. The author is discrediting the skill in a strategy game.

I do not view DOTA/LoL clones as "strategy" games in the strict sense that many do people seem to today. Strategy is all about using your knowledge wisely to prepare yourself for your next move. Just like in a chess, a wise and skillful Eve player will make sure that targets are chosen wisely for the type of ship they are currently flying. They will also know how to use the UI and manage proper engagement.

A skilled eve pilot will usually have won before the battle has already begun. This is because they know that they are properly equipped to have the upper hand for the target they have chosen. In the event that the battle is evenly matched (such as the tournaments suggested), the skill is all about anticipating what moves your opponent will make next and execute without mistakes.

All games are going to have unskilled players that join the zerg - whether it's a traditional MMO such as WoW, a hardcore MMO such as Darkfall or a strategic MMO such as Eve. But saying that Eve PvP doesn't have skill just because it isn't played with "muscle memory" or twitch skill is kind of silly.

This article is like comparing football to chess and saying chess doesn't require skill.

The thing is, there are multiple different kinds of skill.

Reaction / Timing

Strategy / Planning

Teamwork / Coordination

Aiming / Accuracy

Positioning

Efficiency / Speed

Prediction

A game like Eve typically has 2 types of skill, 3 at the most (positioning, planning, teamwork). A game like chess has more (especially if you are playing speed chess). Strategy, Planning, Efficiency, Prediction, Positioning. Now, a game like DotA has more types of skill than that: Reaction, Timing, Strategy, Planning, Teamwork, Coordination, Accuracy, Positioning, Efficiency, Speed, Prediction. However, not all MOBAs are the same, and indeed some (like LoL, or SMITE) still have a lot of skill types involved, but less of a skill cap (as you have to keep track of less things in order to be competitive).

Now, that doesn't mean that all types of skill are represented equally across all games. For example, chess often involves predicting a multitude of moves ahead, and is indeed known for having one of the highest skill-caps for strategy. However Eve's skill relies mostly in the preparation (stockpiling ships & resources), and then later positioning. Much less complex or involved.

MOBAs, on the other hand, have less strategy / predicting than chess; but they are also confined to limited resources, yet also have many levels of prediction, preparation, and strategy. The first level being the draft (which heroes you pick, deteremines what you're capable of, and which weaknesses you will have to deal with. That's the first layer of strategy and counter-strategy. Second, you have your item build (which changes dynamically to accommodate the situation). You then have things like skill builds, combo attacks, last hits / denies, warding & counter warding, ganking & counter-ganking, micro-managing minions, items, efficienctly balancing the economy (kills vs. farming vs. roaming). It's a lot more involved than I think most people realize. And indeed the average person does not play these games on such an advanced level.

- Thing is, Eve does have skill, but for more competitive players, it might not be enough. Some games are more complex than others, and some players enjoy games that are more demanding than others.

If you are comparing a single battle in EVE to a game of chess or a match in a MOBA, then I agree with much of your assessment. However, EVE gameplay, and a player's/team's strategies for success/victory, are on a much larger scale than that single battle. Some may not even be about the individual battle at all. Social engineering, diplomacy and even some of the aspects you dismiss (timing, efficiency, prediction) are all part of the skills needed to succeed in various aspects of EVE, especially PVP. 

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 6483

10/23/13 12:39:51 PM#20
Is strategy, skill? How about preparation? 
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