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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Vanguard could have changed everything !

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123 posts found
  Ender4

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/18/08
Posts: 2042

10/20/13 9:28:29 AM#41


Be careful with personal attacks, I didn't insult you in any way, I'm just debating, try to return the favor. I know it's hard on the Internet, but you can do it.

There was no insult, I explicitly said I'm not saying your wrong.

We view hub based as something completely different obviously. Being able to go back and do previous content has absolutely nothing to do with being hub based.

  Neo_Viper

Novice Member

Joined: 5/10/13
Posts: 624

If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong.

10/20/13 9:32:23 AM#42
Originally posted by Ender4

 


Be careful with personal attacks, I didn't insult you in any way, I'm just debating, try to return the favor. I know it's hard on the Internet, but you can do it.

 

There was no insult, I explicitly said I'm not saying your wrong.

We view hub based as something completely different obviously. Being able to go back and do previous content has absolutely nothing to do with being hub based.

There was no insult, yet you called me a troll... yeah sure, whatever floats your boat.

Being able to go anywhere in the world and find content that makes you progress, and NOT only at "hubs" (be it zones of your level or quest hubs of your level), means the game is NOT hub based.

UO, AC1, GW2, EvE, DFO, MO = not hub based.

EQ, AO, DAoC, EQ2, WoW, Rift, WAR, AoC, LOTRO, GW1, Vanguard, etc... = hub based.

My computer is better than yours.

  jfoytek

Novice Member

Joined: 6/25/12
Posts: 151

10/20/13 9:33:43 AM#43
Originally posted by Ender4

 


Shadowbane was NOT a poorly made game it was a great game with POOR timing.

 

I'm not saying poor designed. I'm saying poorly made. SB was so buggy with so many disconnects that it never stood a chance. It could have been a great game but there is just no way to know because the release was so bad from a technical standpoint.

I am sorry your computer couldn't handle being in the middle of a ball of 400 players stacking ontop of a priest.....

My computer didn't have any issues but I know many did.... That's why we always had those players utilize a different strategy and attack flanks in small groups....  you didn't have to be in the center of the healing ball especially if you weren't a caster....

 

Other then that bug "Which not many games today can handle that many people in the same location"  the game didn't have much in the way of problems at all....

UO,Shadowbane,SWG,Darkfall,MO,Wurm Online,Secretworld,GW,GW2,PotBS,LotR,Atlantica Online,WWII Online,WoT,Battlestar Galactica,Planetside2,Perpetuum,Fallen Earth,Runescape,WoW,Eve,Xsylon,Dragon Prophet, Salem

  Neo_Viper

Novice Member

Joined: 5/10/13
Posts: 624

If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong.

10/20/13 9:38:02 AM#44
Originally posted by jfoytek
Originally posted by Ender4

 


Shadowbane was NOT a poorly made game it was a great game with POOR timing.

 

I'm not saying poor designed. I'm saying poorly made. SB was so buggy with so many disconnects that it never stood a chance. It could have been a great game but there is just no way to know because the release was so bad from a technical standpoint.

I am sorry your computer couldn't handle being in the middle of a ball of 400 players stacking ontop of a priest.....

My computer didn't have any issues but I know many did.... That's why we always had those players utilize a different strategy and attack flanks in small groups....  you didn't have to be in the center of the healing ball especially if you weren't a caster....

 

Other then that bug "Which not many games today can handle that many people in the same location"  the game didn't have much in the way of problems at all....

I also played SB at release, and while I do not agree with "ender4" on other things he said, he's right here. I always had a top notch computer (I was working for the real time effect industry for movie and film back then, I needed horsepower), and SB was a very bugged and badly designed game, and that is a big part of why it failed (along with the FFA PvP design which is niche).

My computer is better than yours.

  Ender4

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/18/08
Posts: 2042

10/20/13 9:43:37 AM#45


There was no insult, yet you called me a troll... yeah sure, whatever floats your boat.

Being able to go anywhere in the world and find content that makes you progress, and NOT only at "hubs" (be it zones of your level or quest hubs of your level), means the game is NOT hub based.


No. I said every time I read one of your posts it feels like you are trolling me, that is the simple truth.

I don't see zones of your level to be hubs. Hubs are points on the map that scream come here to get XP. EQ never had these. GW2 has them all over, it just hides them better. WoW gets you from hub to hub by sending you on quests, GW2 does it by sticking icons on your map. EQ just didn't have them at all. All 3 games you can just go explore and do your own thing and kill whatever. WoW gives you bonus XP and promotes keeping you moving by giving you XP for quests. GW2 does the same by giving you bonus XP for touching each area on the map. EQ just is nothing like those two.

WoW doesn't try to hide it at all even grouping up all the quests into a hub to begin with. GW2 does a much better job of hiding it.

  Apraxis

Elite Member

Joined: 9/28/05
Posts: 1242

10/20/13 9:48:14 AM#46
Originally posted by Lobotomist

There is no question that Vanguard was the Last Mohican - I mean last MMORPG

 

When Vanguard failed - they could have just put the key into the door of this site, and close it forever.

It was the end of the generation , end of a concept that EQ created.

And after that , all was simply ride downhill.

GW2 is probably the ultimate slap in the face of Vanguard.

 

To this day I am sad for it.

Dont know how many of you were on mmorpg.com in Vanguard days. But the amount of hate and arguments was something this site never seen since. And you know this site seen it a lot.

It was obvious a chance was missed, that would never come again...

Seriously.. no. Vanguard was just another Themepark.. yeap, it was maybe a hardcore themepark more the like of EQ, but nevertheless a themepark.

Point is.. i am very happy that more or less all themeparks failed in the recent past, and hope that will go on, until we got back again some sandbox games.. or even better mmos completely different as the last before them.

You can put it that way.. Vanguard was just another EQ clone, whereas almost all other games released are just another WoW clones.. i am sick of clones. And yes, i dont want to see a UO clone either. I want to see a game which should evolve the core principles of UO, but not the game.. UO would suck today, even with modern 3D graphics.

And about all the talk about GW2, basicly, it is not that different from all the other themeparks out there.. and that is not a good thing in opinion either. But from my point of view GW2 and Vanguard are very similar, both themeparks.. granted, one for a casual audience, whereas the other for a more hardcore one.. but the same core principles, the same core game.

  jfoytek

Novice Member

Joined: 6/25/12
Posts: 151

10/20/13 9:51:08 AM#47
Originally posted by Neo_Viper
Originally posted by jfoytek
Originally posted by Ender4

 


Shadowbane was NOT a poorly made game it was a great game with POOR timing.

 

I'm not saying poor designed. I'm saying poorly made. SB was so buggy with so many disconnects that it never stood a chance. It could have been a great game but there is just no way to know because the release was so bad from a technical standpoint.

I am sorry your computer couldn't handle being in the middle of a ball of 400 players stacking ontop of a priest.....

My computer didn't have any issues but I know many did.... That's why we always had those players utilize a different strategy and attack flanks in small groups....  you didn't have to be in the center of the healing ball especially if you weren't a caster....

 

Other then that bug "Which not many games today can handle that many people in the same location"  the game didn't have much in the way of problems at all....

I also played SB at release, and while I do not agree with "ender4" on other things he said, he's right here. I always had a top notch computer (I was working for the real time effect industry for movie and film back then, I needed horsepower), and SB was a very bugged and badly designed game, and that is a big part of why it failed (along with the FFA PvP design which is niche).

Yes it has a bad release many good games have had bad releases....  But after the release the game ran smooth with the exception of 400 vrs 400 healing balls where some players experience lag, admittedly......

UO,Shadowbane,SWG,Darkfall,MO,Wurm Online,Secretworld,GW,GW2,PotBS,LotR,Atlantica Online,WWII Online,WoT,Battlestar Galactica,Planetside2,Perpetuum,Fallen Earth,Runescape,WoW,Eve,Xsylon,Dragon Prophet, Salem

  Ender4

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/18/08
Posts: 2042

10/20/13 9:52:03 AM#48

There are a few games on the horizon that don't look like clones so hopefully you get what you want. Star Citizen and EQ Next do not look like clones. ESO I'm unsure about at this point. Wildstar looks like one though. Haven't followed that many of the other new games coming.

To be clear I was talking about at release for SB too. It was bad enough that my guild who enjoyed the game and enjoyed that niche of gaming had almost all quit by the time it got stabilized. The game also failed on the PvE side and while that doesn't sound important it actually does matter. You do need a combination of PvP and PvE to keep people happy. A game that can blend FFA PvP with a decent PvE game that involves fighting over the content would be one I'd actually pay a monthly sub for.

  jfoytek

Novice Member

Joined: 6/25/12
Posts: 151

10/20/13 9:54:27 AM#49
Originally posted by Ender4

There are a few games on the horizon that don't look like clones so hopefully you get what you want. Star Citizen and EQ Next do not look like clones. ESO I'm unsure about at this point. Wildstar looks like one though. Haven't followed that many of the other new games coming.

ESO unfortunately is going to be another Instanced Theampark..... which is a real shame that could have been the sandbox to bring down wow....  but they had to go the safe route....

UO,Shadowbane,SWG,Darkfall,MO,Wurm Online,Secretworld,GW,GW2,PotBS,LotR,Atlantica Online,WWII Online,WoT,Battlestar Galactica,Planetside2,Perpetuum,Fallen Earth,Runescape,WoW,Eve,Xsylon,Dragon Prophet, Salem

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 12768

10/20/13 9:57:59 AM#50
Lots of games could have been great if not for the various problems that they had.  There are certainly dozens and likely hundreds of games that could have been the best game ever made if not for various problems that kept them from reaching their full potential.
  Ender4

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/18/08
Posts: 2042

10/20/13 10:00:23 AM#51


ESO unfortunately is going to be another Instanced Theampark..... which is a real shame that could have been the sandbox to bring down wow.... but they had to go the safe route.

Yeah I'm leaning towards agreeing with you though I've been told I'm wrong by people for this assumption too. I'll have to wait for a few more details to come out to know for sure.

  Apraxis

Elite Member

Joined: 9/28/05
Posts: 1242

10/20/13 10:05:31 AM#52
Originally posted by Ender4

There are a few games on the horizon that don't look like clones so hopefully you get what you want. Star Citizen and EQ Next do not look like clones. ESO I'm unsure about at this point. Wildstar looks like one though. Haven't followed that many of the other new games coming.

To be clear I was talking about at release for SB too. It was bad enough that my guild who enjoyed the game and enjoyed that niche of gaming had almost all quit by the time it got stabilized. The game also failed on the PvE side and while that doesn't sound important it actually does matter. You do need a combination of PvP and PvE to keep people happy. A game that can blend FFA PvP with a decent PvE game that involves fighting over the content would be one I'd actually pay a monthly sub for.

Yes.. and i am awaiting EQN and Star Citizen.. they seem to be a breeze of fresh air. Although we don't know enough about EQN, and i am somewhat afraid that it could become somewhat like a casual sandbox.. something like what WoW was for themeparks.. and i don't know if i like that. But both at least try something different, and i do hope that trend continues.

  jfoytek

Novice Member

Joined: 6/25/12
Posts: 151

10/20/13 10:09:13 AM#53
Originally posted by Apraxis
Originally posted by Ender4

There are a few games on the horizon that don't look like clones so hopefully you get what you want. Star Citizen and EQ Next do not look like clones. ESO I'm unsure about at this point. Wildstar looks like one though. Haven't followed that many of the other new games coming.

To be clear I was talking about at release for SB too. It was bad enough that my guild who enjoyed the game and enjoyed that niche of gaming had almost all quit by the time it got stabilized. The game also failed on the PvE side and while that doesn't sound important it actually does matter. You do need a combination of PvP and PvE to keep people happy. A game that can blend FFA PvP with a decent PvE game that involves fighting over the content would be one I'd actually pay a monthly sub for.

Yes.. and i am awaiting EQN and Star Citizen.. they seem to be a breeze of fresh air. Although we don't know enough about EQN, and i am somewhat afraid that it could become somewhat like a casual sandbox.. something like what WoW was for themeparks.. and i don't know if i like that. But both at least try something different, and i do hope that trend continues.

I will take anything Sandbox at this point.....

Eve - Wurm - Salem - Ryzom - just are not cutting it.....  Though if Rolf had the Money Wurm would be amazing !!!

UO,Shadowbane,SWG,Darkfall,MO,Wurm Online,Secretworld,GW,GW2,PotBS,LotR,Atlantica Online,WWII Online,WoT,Battlestar Galactica,Planetside2,Perpetuum,Fallen Earth,Runescape,WoW,Eve,Xsylon,Dragon Prophet, Salem

  GregorMcgregor

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 153

10/20/13 10:10:44 AM#54
Originally posted by page975

Lets just Pretend that Vanguard was everything is was supposed to be.

Lets just say that Vanguard didn't have coding problems, chunking between zones, better graphics and more interesting quest, a game that had something for casual and hardcore, a good balance.  Even add your own good stuff to the mix...... Lets just say everything went as planned " just pretend ".  If so, I really believe this would have been another WoW, Everquest,UO,Eve, and LOTRO, possibly bigger.

With that :

I think Vanguard would have made a major impact on the short 30 day crap games that we have today.  Less people would side and support short theme park, with no sociable interactions other than dynamic events.

More people would be on board with old school.  In fact Old school should not even be a word. The way I see it, old school=mmo. Old school should have evolved with better graphics and interesting stuff to do.  Instead DEVELOPERS COMPLETELY CHANGED THE FORMULA....Did anyone ask for this change ?....Did you ?

If Old School mmos went in the right direction and evolved properly, we would have something for the casual players mixed in with hard core.  I hate to use this example but WoW sociologicaly did things right. They went into the mind of players and seen that some like hard content and others like easy...You had both in WoW ( at least in Vanilla ).

Vanguard could have changed everything....less people would put up with crap.

Amen! Wisdom at last, sadly, it is to late and the "I want it NOW!" kids have won.

As an older gamer, and part of that "old school" I look back over the last few years of the MMOs that came out and sigh.

I am honestly thinking it's time to hang the sword and start messing about in normal *boring single player games. (*Boring beats funless chore, and anyway, most of these newer MMOs WERE single player!).

No trials. No tricks. No traps. No EU-RP server. NO THANKS!


...10% Benevolence, 90% Arrogance in my case!

  f0dell54

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/16/12
Posts: 311

Sanity....
It's for the weak.

10/20/13 10:24:15 AM#55
Originally posted by Neo_Viper
Originally posted by Ender4

 


Be careful with personal attacks, I didn't insult you in any way, I'm just debating, try to return the favor. I know it's hard on the Internet, but you can do it.

 

There was no insult, I explicitly said I'm not saying your wrong.

We view hub based as something completely different obviously. Being able to go back and do previous content has absolutely nothing to do with being hub based.

There was no insult, yet you called me a troll... yeah sure, whatever floats your boat.

Being able to go anywhere in the world and find content that makes you progress, and NOT only at "hubs" (be it zones of your level or quest hubs of your level), means the game is NOT hub based.

UO, AC1, GW2, EvE, DFO, MO = not hub based.

EQ, AO, DAoC, EQ2, WoW, Rift, WAR, AoC, LOTRO, GW1, Vanguard, etc... = hub based.

 

You praise someone earlier in this thread for their reading comprehension and have none of your own, go figure. Try rereading his post and see if you get it this time.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17953

10/20/13 10:25:47 AM#56
Originally posted by GregorMcgregor
 

Amen! Wisdom at last, sadly, it is to late and the "I want it NOW!" kids have won.

As an older gamer, and part of that "old school" I look back over the last few years of the MMOs that came out and sigh.

I am honestly thinking it's time to hang the sword and start messing about in normal *boring single player games. (*Boring beats funless chore, and anyway, most of these newer MMOs WERE single player!).

nah .. also the "I want it NOW!" adults have won.

As an older gamer, and part of that "old school" I look back over the last few years of the MMOs that came out and cheers.

 

  Neo_Viper

Novice Member

Joined: 5/10/13
Posts: 624

If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong.

10/20/13 10:33:29 AM#57
Originally posted by f0dell54
Originally posted by Neo_Viper
Originally posted by Ender4

 


Be careful with personal attacks, I didn't insult you in any way, I'm just debating, try to return the favor. I know it's hard on the Internet, but you can do it.

 

There was no insult, I explicitly said I'm not saying your wrong.

We view hub based as something completely different obviously. Being able to go back and do previous content has absolutely nothing to do with being hub based.

There was no insult, yet you called me a troll... yeah sure, whatever floats your boat.

Being able to go anywhere in the world and find content that makes you progress, and NOT only at "hubs" (be it zones of your level or quest hubs of your level), means the game is NOT hub based.

UO, AC1, GW2, EvE, DFO, MO = not hub based.

EQ, AO, DAoC, EQ2, WoW, Rift, WAR, AoC, LOTRO, GW1, Vanguard, etc... = hub based.

 

You praise someone earlier in this thread for their reading comprehension and have none of your own, go figure. Try rereading his post and see if you get it this time.

I have understood what he says perfectly, thank you, he pretty much adapts the notion of "hub based" to what he thinks is right or wrong. EQ is the grandfather of all linear theme park games, emphasis on linear, forcing you to do the content according to your level with no other choice. It's pretty much hub based, farm those skeletons here for 3 days and then you'll gain a level allowing you to farm those giants for 3 more days until you level again and can farm those goblins for 4 days this time.

My computer is better than yours.

  Alders

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/28/10
Posts: 1546

I cannot fiddle but I can make a great state of a small city.

10/20/13 10:42:05 AM#58
Originally posted by page975

Lets just Pretend that Vanguard was everything is was supposed to be.

Lets just say that Vanguard didn't have coding problems, chunking between zones, better graphics and more interesting quest, a game that had something for casual and hardcore, a good balance.  Even add your own good stuff to the mix...... Lets just say everything went as planned " just pretend ".  If so, I really believe this would have been another WoW, Everquest,UO,Eve, and LOTRO, possibly bigger.

With that :

I think Vanguard would have made a major impact on the short 30 day crap games that we have today.  Less people would side and support short theme park, with no sociable interactions other than dynamic events.

More people would be on board with old school.  In fact Old school should not even be a word. The way I see it, old school=mmo. Old school should have evolved with better graphics and interesting stuff to do.  Instead DEVELOPERS COMPLETELY CHANGED THE FORMULA....Did anyone ask for this change ?....Did you ?

If Old School mmos went in the right direction and evolved properly, we would have something for the casual players mixed in with hard core.  I hate to use this example but WoW sociologicaly did things right. They went into the mind of players and seen that some like hard content and others like easy...You had both in WoW ( at least in Vanilla ).

Vanguard could have changed everything....less people would put up with crap.

 

In 2007?  I doubt it.  WoW was in full swing and people weren't tired of that formula yet.

Now?  Most definitely.

  Ender4

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/18/08
Posts: 2042

10/20/13 10:43:15 AM#59


It's pretty much hub based, farm those skeletons here for 3 days and then you'll gain a level allowing you to farm those giants for 3 more days until you level again and can farm those goblins for 4 days this time.

I guess if that is how you played it, I certainly didn't play it that way. I'm lvl 20 in EQ I have about 8 different zones I can go level in and I can choose what to kill or if I group etc. The game doesn't try to funnel me into specific areas or give me bonus XP for visiting each little area the way a GW2 or WoW does. More importantly it doesn't even tell me where these areas are. You either looked it up online or you explored the world to find them. GW2 pops them up on your map for you, WoW moved you from area to area with quests.

I wouldn't put EQ in that list of games you gave including AC1, UO etc but no way in heck I'd put GW2 in that list either.

But like I said we must have very different definitions of what is hub based. I didn't adapt it to my argument, I have a different opinion as to what it means. To me hub based means the game is leading you around from hot spot (hub) to hot spot. GW2 definitely does it, WOW definitely does it, EQ does not.

To use the theme park example and to call the hub a map. EQ gives you a park and just says go figure it out with no map given. WoW gives you a map and shows you the 'best' order to take the rides in and sometimes won't let you on a ride without doing a previous ride first. GW2 gives you a map of where all the rides are and lets you choose which order. GW2 and WoW still give you the map, EQ does not.

  Shadanwolf

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/13/10
Posts: 1851

10/20/13 10:44:07 AM#60
Originally posted by Lobotomist

There is no question that Vanguard was the Last Mohican - I mean last MMORPG

 

When Vanguard failed - they could have just put the key into the door of this site, and close it forever.

It was the end of the generation , end of a concept that EQ created.

And after that , all was simply ride downhill.

GW2 is probably the ultimate slap in the face of Vanguard.

 

To this day I am sad for it.

Dont know how many of you were on mmorpg.com in Vanguard days. But the amount of hate and arguments was something this site never seen since. And you know this site seen it a lot.

It was obvious a chance was missed, that would never come again...

 

I am hopeful....that you are wrong.Yes the tide has been running  against games like Vanguard.But I sense a cycle.A cycle in which independents will make niche games like VG and find a place where they can thrive.We are seeing way of funding development we have not seen  before and this will fuel the return of an alternative to the mindless pap of today's games.

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