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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Vanguard could have changed everything !

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123 posts found
  jfoytek

Novice Member

Joined: 6/25/12
Posts: 151

10/20/13 9:26:38 AM#21

There all the same family of game

 

EQ-WoW-Vanguard-GW-GW2  Tired and sick of this family I much prefer,

 

UO- SWG (Pre NGE)-Eve-Wurm   Alas we need a AAA developer to bring out a good sandbox!!!

UO,Shadowbane,SWG,Darkfall,MO,Wurm Online,Secretworld,GW,GW2,PotBS,LotR,Atlantica Online,WWII Online,WoT,Battlestar Galactica,Planetside2,Perpetuum,Fallen Earth,Runescape,WoW,Eve,Xsylon,Dragon Prophet, Salem

  Braindome

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/06/11
Posts: 626

10/20/13 9:31:09 AM#22
Originally posted by Neo_Viper
Originally posted by Lobotomist

I am not saying GW2 is bad

Just that its anti-thesis of Vanguard

Which is in my opinion a good thing. We had our fill of EQ and then EQ/WoW clones. About time some AAA developers try different things, even if it doesn't please everyone. And yeah, Vanguard was just another of those clones.

This is a bit like those people who like to drive collection cars. A few may enjoy maintaining a 1960's Ford Mustang, and feeding it with the 20+ liters of gas per 100km it needs, but most adult, mature and realistic people realize the design is obsolete, and that those cars are ecological and financial disasters.

Thank god all companies don't have the same mindset as you or everyone would be forced to play what "you" and others think is the "right game". Personally I detest GW2....hate it.

So your answer is to shutdown all games that don't have a million+ players as they are like old mom and pop shops. It is this type of mindset in general I don't care for. Whatever, play what you like and don't try and force your views or opinions on me cause I don't agree with them and a game doesn't have to be new and most popular for me to like it.

Some people haven't given up on these games you know, just sayin.

Like x 56

  Ender4

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/18/08
Posts: 2098

10/20/13 9:32:24 AM#23


Originally posted by jfoytek
There all the same family of game

 

EQ-WoW-Vanguard-GW-GW2  Tired and sick of this family I much prefer,

 

UO- SWG (Pre NGE)-Eve-Wurm   Alas we need a AAA developer to bring out a good sandbox!!!


Well sure if you want to talk the really broad sandbox vs theme park categories.

I'd go more

EQ - Vanguard
WoW - EQ2 - LOTRO - GW2
UO - AC - Eve - Ryzom

etc. There are different families of theme parks. Those that really hold your hand and have very clearly designated rides to go on and those that promote you just sort of finding the rides on your own. WoW is the start of those that really show you where the rides are and that are willing to pull you out of the park to enjoy the rides. EQ and Vanguard always kept you in the park and let you find the rides yourself.

  Lobotomist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/20/07
Posts: 4884

I got so much trouble on my mind Refuse to lose.

10/20/13 9:41:43 AM#24
Originally posted by Neo_Viper
Originally posted by Lobotomist

I am not saying GW2 is bad

Just that its anti-thesis of Vanguard

Which is in my opinion a good thing. We had our fill of EQ and then EQ/WoW clones. About time some AAA developers try different things, even if it doesn't please everyone. And yeah, Vanguard was just another of those clones.

This is a bit like those people who like to drive collection cars. A few may enjoy maintaining a 1960's Ford Mustang, and feeding it with the 20+ liters of gas per 100km it needs, but most adult, mature and realistic people realize the design is obsolete, and that those cars are ecological and financial disasters.

I would actually play both

GW2 is excellent because it does not need much investment. In fact its the fastest starting MMO. Did you know that ?

You can be in mids of playing some 20 seconds after you press the icon on your desktop.

 

But than it can get very shallow.

Sometimes you need something more binding, with more consequences and rewards.

Than you could have played Vanguard.

  jfoytek

Novice Member

Joined: 6/25/12
Posts: 151

10/20/13 9:43:35 AM#25
Originally posted by Braindome
Originally posted by Neo_Viper
Originally posted by Lobotomist

I am not saying GW2 is bad

Just that its anti-thesis of Vanguard

Which is in my opinion a good thing. We had our fill of EQ and then EQ/WoW clones. About time some AAA developers try different things, even if it doesn't please everyone. And yeah, Vanguard was just another of those clones.

This is a bit like those people who like to drive collection cars. A few may enjoy maintaining a 1960's Ford Mustang, and feeding it with the 20+ liters of gas per 100km it needs, but most adult, mature and realistic people realize the design is obsolete, and that those cars are ecological and financial disasters.

Thank god all companies don't have the same mindset as you or everyone would be forced to play what "you" and others think is the "right game". Personally I detest GW2....hate it.

So your answer is to shutdown all games that don't have a million+ players as they are like old mom and pop shops. It is this type of mindset in general I don't care for. Whatever, play what you like and don't try and force your views or opinions on me cause I don't agree with them and a game doesn't have to be new and most popular for me to like it.

Some people haven't given up on these games you know, just sayin.

That's far from what he said!!!   Pretty darn sure he says and I will highlight it in his post.  Many of use are sick of theamparks, sick of instancing, sick of quests, we want to see something different!!!!

 

UO,Shadowbane,SWG,Darkfall,MO,Wurm Online,Secretworld,GW,GW2,PotBS,LotR,Atlantica Online,WWII Online,WoT,Battlestar Galactica,Planetside2,Perpetuum,Fallen Earth,Runescape,WoW,Eve,Xsylon,Dragon Prophet, Salem

  Neo_Viper

Novice Member

Joined: 5/10/13
Posts: 624

If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong.

10/20/13 9:54:58 AM#26
Originally posted by jfoytek

That's far from what he said!!!   Pretty darn sure he says and I will highlight it in his post.  Many of use are sick of theamparks, sick of instancing, sick of quests, we want to see something different!!!!

Nice to see someone with decent reading comprehension around here for a change.

Thanks for that.

GW2 is not the "end of it all" and definitely has quite a few flaws, but it IS something DIFFERENT. It's not just another WoW clone like Vanguard, LOTRO, Rift, etc...

That's why I play both WoW and GW2. Because both games are really totally different takes on the theme park model.

My computer is better than yours.

  Neo_Viper

Novice Member

Joined: 5/10/13
Posts: 624

If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong.

10/20/13 9:59:19 AM#27
Originally posted by Ender4

 


Anyone who played (or like me, still plays) both GW2 and WoW knows that what you posted it complete nonsense. GW2's design is totally different from WoW, both in the leveling and in the end game aspects. WoW is an EQ clone with quests slapped on it, same end game (raid grind based). Several of the original WoW developers were actually coming from EQ

 

I have played all 3 heavily and I completely disagree with you. You seem fixated on the raid aspects and I'm looking more at how the full games function. A huge part of it is the hub based leveling, the casual friendly aspects and the instancing. These create the same core game. If you ask me what WoW did to change the core of the MMORPG it is exactly those things and those are all carried over into GW2 and did not exist in EQ.

You didn't have to raid for an end game in EQ either and you certainly don't have to in WoW where you can get gear thrown at you from heroics or PvP. All GW2 did was replace the raids with large scale mob events.

I will only say one word for the highlighted part: LOL.

There's definitely more things to do in both WoW and GW2 than in EQ at end game.

And GW2 didn't replace anything, it simply suppressed the "end game grind". You don't suddenly completely change the way you play the game when you hit 80 in GW2.

And saying that GW2 is "hub based leveling" only proves one thing. That you played GW2 like a WoW clone, and you did it wrong. GW2 is a theme park, yes, but not even remotely close from being "hub based".

My computer is better than yours.

  Nadia

Tipster

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11795

10/20/13 10:00:19 AM#28
Originally posted by page975

Lets just Pretend that Vanguard was everything is was supposed to be.

Vanguard could have changed everything....less people would put up with crap.

Vanguard was always intended to be a *niche* mmo

 

Aradune on FOH forums - i added the emphasis

http://web.archive.org/web/20070609181848/http://www.fohguild.org/forums/mmorpg-general-discussion/18145-sigil-defines-core-gamers-re-vanguard-6.html

Does our core gamer = WoW's casual gamer? I don't have their internal data, obviously, but I doubt it. Our core gamer is someone who plays 2-4 hours every night, occasionally spending a full day or so raiding, but who is normally focussed on challenging group oriented gameplay. The casual and raid gamer will indeed have content for them, but the core gamer is our focus. So also is creating a more challenging and longer term game -- a home.

I do know the average EQ player earlier on (launch->Velious) and it is their playstyle and time commitment whom we are targeting primarily.

  NightBandit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/25/07
Posts: 795

Make friends not money, then wealth will follow.

10/20/13 10:02:14 AM#29
Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by page975

Lets just Pretend that Vanguard was everything is was supposed to be.

Lets just say that Vanguard didn't have coding problems, chunking between zones, better graphics and more interesting quest, a game that had something for casual and hardcore, a good balance.  Even add your own good stuff to the mix...... Lets just say everything went as planned " just pretend ".  If so, I really believe this would have been another WoW, Everquest,UO,Eve, and LOTRO, possibly bigger.

With that :

I think Vanguard would have made a major impact on the short 30 day crap games that we have today.  Less people would side and support short theme park, with no sociable interactions other than dynamic events.

More people would be on board with old school.  In fact Old school should not even be a word. The way I see it, old school=mmo. Old school should have evolved with better graphics and interesting stuff to do.  Instead DEVELOPERS COMPLETELY CHANGED THE FORMULA....Did anyone ask for this change ?....Did you ?

If Old School mmos went in the right direction and evolved properly, we would have something for the casual players mixed in with hard core.  I hate to use this example but WoW sociologicaly did things right. They went into the mind of players and seen that some like hard content and others like easy...You had both in WoW ( at least in Vanilla ).

Vanguard could have changed everything....less people would put up with crap.

Vanguard was a spiritual successor to EQ1, it is a game deserving EQ2 name (unlike EQ2).

I played it for 2.5 years since launch, I had a killer gaming PC at the time that could run VGSoH without crashing issues that plagued so many other players.

But even if it had none of the problems it still wouldn't have changed anything IMO - the player base who want this type of gameplay is very limited, that is the truth.

 

One thing that many seem to miss is that MMO players evolve and change over time, the playerbase that played UO and EQ1 back in 1998/9 (I am one of those) has different priorities now.

I don't have 8 hours to play per day, heck nobody should be doing that - it is not healthy - and frankly MMO devs should not be designing games that encourage that sort of gameplay.

Games are entertainment, I don't support games becoming a "virtual online life" anymore, again shorter term games are obviously preferred these days as players need time for friends, family and their own wellbeing. 

Anything that disrupts essential RL activities, is IMO undesirable, and this includes old-school "spend every waking hour online" MMOs.

So IMO Vanguard didn't change anything because the majority of players just are not interested in that style of gameplay, even if VG was perfect technically the same thing would have happened.

 

 

+ 1 could not agree more pal you are spot on there and I'm one of those older players too as you described in your comments.

The Bandit

  Neo_Viper

Novice Member

Joined: 5/10/13
Posts: 624

If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong.

10/20/13 10:07:36 AM#30
Originally posted by NightBandit 

+ 1 could not agree more pal you are spot on there and I'm one of those older players too as you described in your comments.

Being an "older player" has nothing to do with this. I'm also one of the "older players" who started with UO, and I still think Vanguard, while not a bad game per se, is an outdated design which was doomed to fail before it even was released.

For info, I still have it installed on my PC and log in sometimes. So I'm no VG hater.

My computer is better than yours.

  Ender4

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/18/08
Posts: 2098

10/20/13 10:08:48 AM#31


I will only say one word for the highlighted part: LOL.

There's definitely more things to do in both WoW and GW2 than in EQ at end game.

And GW2 didn't replace anything, it simply suppressed the "end game grind". You don't suddenly completely change the way you play the game when you hit 80 in GW2.

And saying that GW2 is "hub based leveling" only proves one thing. That you played GW2 like a WoW clone, and you did it wrong. GW2 is a theme park, yes, but not even remotely close from being "hub based".


Yes you did not have to raid in EQ. I was in a good raid guild and had some of the best gear on the server on my Paladin when I quit and there were people who did not raid that were stronger than me just because they overwhelmed me in AAs. EQ had two paths for progression, AA and gear.

Of course GW2 has hub based leveling, it is ridiculous to say otherwise. You don't have to do the hubs in order in WoW either, you can skip some and wander around and only do the ones that interest you, heck I usually grinded as much as I quested in WoW. GW2 throws things up and says here is content and the vast majority of players spend most of their time in that content. Whether it being a big announcement to 'come here for an event' or the symbols on the map. Yeah they have some hidden areas too but so does WoW. You don't HAVE to do the hubs in either game, but they certainly do exist.

I think if you poll people who have played all 3 and ask them about their daily gameplay while leveling you will be hard pressed to find people who think WoW was more like EQ than like GW2.

  jfoytek

Novice Member

Joined: 6/25/12
Posts: 151

10/20/13 10:12:19 AM#32
Originally posted by Neo_Viper
Originally posted by NightBandit 

+ 1 could not agree more pal you are spot on there and I'm one of those older players too as you described in your comments.

Being an "older player" has nothing to do with this. I'm also one of the "older players" who started with UO, and I still think Vanguard, while not a bad game per se, is an outdated design which was doomed to fail before it even was released.

 

I don't completely agree here,  I am not a huge fan of Vanguard myself, but if I enjoyed raiding it would be a great game for me but I don't really like that type of play, raiding for me would be getting as many guys together to run around a kill people not Boss level NPC's lol....

 

No I much prefer a solitary lifestyle inside of a game where I can chose to leave my house one day and meet up with the clan to kill people or just tend to my vendors or possible collect materials, hunt mobs, look for rares, or just go shoping for low priced vanq's on hard to find vendors and resell them for a profit....

 

Yes I am describing Ultima Online the greatest game ever that was Ruined by Carebears and there cries for Trammel !!!

UO,Shadowbane,SWG,Darkfall,MO,Wurm Online,Secretworld,GW,GW2,PotBS,LotR,Atlantica Online,WWII Online,WoT,Battlestar Galactica,Planetside2,Perpetuum,Fallen Earth,Runescape,WoW,Eve,Xsylon,Dragon Prophet, Salem

  5Luck

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/23/10
Posts: 184

10/20/13 10:12:20 AM#33

Im sorry here. I kinda feel vanguard was the game that ruined MMOs. It had just enough crafting to make it appealing to sandboxers and then it split the crafting class off from a role and made it a subrole or a sphere if I remember it right.

 

Once that split off, from crafting being a complete charater role it became 2ndary for most developers and even an after thought or competely usless destroying any potential player based economy that at least IMO is the basic foundation for a sandbox to thrive on.

  Lord.Bachus

Elite Member

Joined: 5/14/07
Posts: 8891

I believe in life before death... So dont forget to enjoy it while you still can.

10/20/13 10:15:46 AM#34

Vanguard changed a lot.... it made developers realise that even MMORPGs need to be top knotch in all aspects of the game to be a succes..

 

It also showed that casual gamers dont have much with tedious game mechanics.

Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  Neo_Viper

Novice Member

Joined: 5/10/13
Posts: 624

If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong.

10/20/13 10:18:48 AM#35
Originally posted by Ender4

EQ had two paths for progression, AA and gear.

Two paths which ADDED up. To be top of the top, raiding is required, just like in WoW. Otherwise, you are only second class, sub par.

Of course GW2 has hub based leveling, it is ridiculous to say otherwise.

Wrong. Of course, you can level by following the "hearts" and play the game like a WoW clone, but that's not how the game works. Unlike WoW, you are not forced to follow some "quest hubs" in order to progress, you can play the game as you want to, even go back to lower level areas and still gain XP doing events there.

You don't have to do the hubs in order in WoW either,

Have you played WoW recently? Well, I do, and therefore can confidently say that what you posted here is bullshit. Leveling in WoW has become utterly linear, even more with "phasing" which doesn't allow you to access quest hubs until you finished the previous one.

GW2 throws things up and says here is content and the vast majority of players spend most of their time in that content.

You confuse "vast majority" with the way YOU played the game. A common mistake on these forums. You can get a character to max level with less than 25% of the world explored in GW2, and without doing any of the hearts.


I think if you poll people who have played all 3 and ask them about their daily gameplay while leveling you will be hard pressed to find people who think WoW was more than EQ than like GW2.

I know what the EQ players will answer... I spent days grinding a mob camp, and then moved to the next mob camp which provided the best XP for my level. In WoW, it's quest hubs of your own level, others don't give any XP. In GW2, it's going anywhere in the world equal or lower than what you can take at your level and be rewarded. Totally different designs, but both EQ and WOW share the hub based (mob hubs or quest hubs) level specific designs.

My computer is better than yours.

  Ender4

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/18/08
Posts: 2098

10/20/13 10:19:51 AM#36

Now to answer the original question, there is no way to know the answer. Vanguard was dead on release because it was so poorly made. Same with Shadowbane and Warhammer Age of Reckoning. When you both your game design this badly it is very hard to survive. Somehow Anarchy Online rebounded but I'm guessing that was because all releases were so bad back then.

  Ender4

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/18/08
Posts: 2098

10/20/13 10:22:49 AM#37

We will have to just agree to disagree Neo. I find your responses to be so far from any basis in reality that it shows we are never going to agree on this. Rarely have I found a person on a forum that had such complete lack of reality from my own personal viewpoint. Not saying you are just wrong, just that we obviously see these games from 180 degree different angles. Every time I read one of your posts I just think you are trolling at this point.

I'm sorry but I read that last post and I don't see a single thing you said that seems based in reality.

As for WoW I quit it before finishing the leveling in cataclysm because it ruined the game. Before then yeah you could skip around and just not do large portions of the content for sure. Some quests were based on others but most hubs started fresh.

  jfoytek

Novice Member

Joined: 6/25/12
Posts: 151

10/20/13 10:25:15 AM#38
Originally posted by Ender4

Now to answer the original question, there is no way to know the answer. Vanguard was dead on release because it was so poorly made. Same with Shadowbane and Warhammer Age of Reckoning. When you both your game design this badly it is very hard to survive. Somehow Anarchy Online rebounded but I'm guessing that was because all releases were so bad back then.

Shadowbane was NOT a poorly made game it was a great game with POOR timing...

 

WoW released not long after it did, and if that had not been the case it would still be around today!!!

 

But WoW being the juggernaught that it is, I wont take that away from it turned it into a ghost town faster then NGE cleared out SWG.....

 

But once many people especially pvpers saw what WoW and wanted to come back IE trickle back in they found a game that wasn't the same 400 vrs 400 battle over cities that it once was....

 

Don't bad mouth shadowbane I will fight you tooth and nail everytime you do as it was one of the best 4 games ever made as far as I am concerned  !!!

UO,Shadowbane,SWG,Darkfall,MO,Wurm Online,Secretworld,GW,GW2,PotBS,LotR,Atlantica Online,WWII Online,WoT,Battlestar Galactica,Planetside2,Perpetuum,Fallen Earth,Runescape,WoW,Eve,Xsylon,Dragon Prophet, Salem

  Neo_Viper

Novice Member

Joined: 5/10/13
Posts: 624

If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong.

10/20/13 10:26:47 AM#39
Originally posted by Ender4

We will have to just agree to disagree Neo. I find your responses to be so far from any basis in reality that it shows we are never going to agree on this.

My answers are based in reality because I played all three games, and still play two of them. Your answers seem to be bathed in the soft cuddly lights of nostalgia though.

Rarely have I found a person on a forum that had such complete lack of reality from my own personal viewpoint. Not saying you are just wrong, just that we obviously see these games from 180 degree different angles. Every time I read one of your posts I just think you are trolling at this point.

Be careful with personal attacks, I didn't insult you in any way, I'm just debating, try to return the favor. I know it's hard on the Internet, but you can do it.

Calling EQ a hub based game is just beyond ridiculous to me.

Yet you were moving from level specific area to level specific area, without any other possible choice. You couldn't go back to a lower level area and be rewarded, you were forced to stick to the most efficient zone for your level. Linear progression, hub based. Same in WoW, you move from quest hub to quest hub. Which is in no way true for GW2.

My computer is better than yours.

  Ender4

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/18/08
Posts: 2098

10/20/13 10:27:19 AM#40


Shadowbane was NOT a poorly made game it was a great game with POOR timing.

I'm not saying poor designed. I'm saying poorly made. SB was so buggy with so many disconnects that it never stood a chance. It could have been a great game but there is just no way to know because the release was so bad from a technical standpoint.

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