Trending Games | Star Wars: The Old Republic | Elder Scrolls Online | WildStar | World of Warcraft

  Network:  FPSguru RTSguru
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,644,755 Users Online:0
Games:681  Posts:6,078,529
Recent forum postsRSS
Active threads
Cloud view
List all forums
General Forums
Developers Corner General Discussion
Popular Game Forums
Click a status to find game forum
Game Forums
Click a letter to find game forum
A-C
2029 Online 2112: Revolution 2Moons 4Story 8BitMMO 9 Dragons A Mystical Land A Tale in the Desert III A3 ACE Online ARGO Online Aberoth Absolute Force Online Absolute Terror Achaea Adellion Aerrevan Aetolia, the Midnight Age Age of Armor Age of Conan Age of Empires Online Age of Mourning Age of Wulin Age of Wushu Aida Arenas Aika Aion Albion Online Alganon All Points Bulletin (APB) Allods Online Altis Gates Amazing World Anarchy Online Ancients of Fasaria Andromeda 5 Angels Online Anime Trumps Anmynor Anno Online Applo Arcane Hearts Arcane Legends ArchLord ArcheAge Archeblade Archlord X Asda 2 Asda Story Ashen Empires Asheron's Call Asheron's Call 2 Astera Online Astonia III Astro Empires Astro Lords: Oort CLoud Asura Force Atlantica Online Atriarch Aura Kingdom Aurora Blade Auto Assault Avatar Star Battle Dawn Battle Dawn Galaxies Battle for Graxia Battle of 3 Kingdoms Battle of the Immortals Battlecruiser Online Battlestar Galactica Online Battlestar Reloaded Beyond Protocol Black Aftermath Black Desert Black Gold Black Prophecy Black Prophecy Tactics: Nexus Conflict Blacklight Retribution Blade & Soul Blade Hunter Blade Wars Blazing Throne Bless Blitz 1941 Blood and Jade Bloodlines Champions Bounty Bay Online Brain Storm Brawl Busters. Brick-Force Bright Shadow Bullet Run Business Tycoon Online CTRacer Cabal Online Caesary Call of Camelot Call of Gods Call of Thrones Camelot Unchained Canaan Online Cardmon Hero Cartoon Universe CasinoRPG Castle Empire Castlot Celtic Heroes Champions Online Champions of Regnum Chaos Online Chrono Tales Citadel of Sorcery CitiesXL Citizen Zero City of Decay City of Heroes City of Steam City of Transformers City of Villains Civilization Online Clan Lord Clash of Clans Cloud Nine Club Penguin Colony of War Command & Conquer: Tiberium Alliances Company of Heroes Online Conquer Online Conquer Online 3 Continent of the Ninth (C9) Core Blaze Core Exiles Corum Online Craft of Gods Crimecraft Crimelife 2 Cronous Crota II Cultures Online Cyber Monster 2 Céiron Wars
D-F
D&D Online DC Universe DK Online DOTA DOTA 2 DUST 514 DV8: Exile Dalethaan Dance Groove Online Dark Age of Camelot Dark Ages Dark Legends Dark Orbit Dark Relic: Prelude Dark Solstice Dark and Light DarkEden Online DarkSpace Darkblood Online Darkest Dungeon Darkfall Darkfall: Unholy Wars Darkwind: War on Wheels Das Tal Dawn of Fantasy Dawntide DayZ Dead Earth Dead Frontier Deco Online Deepworld Defiance Deicide Online Dekaron Demons at the Horizon Desert Operations Destiny Diablo 3 Diamonin Digimon Battle Dino Storm Disciple Divergence Divina Divine Souls Dofus Dominus Online Dragon Ball Online Dragon Born Online Dragon Crusade Dragon Empires Dragon Eternity Dragon Nest Dragon Oath Dragon Pals Dragon Raja Dragon's Call Dragon's Call II Dragon's Prophet DragonSky DragonSoul Dragona Dragonica Dragons and Titans Dream of Mirror Online Dreamland Online Dreamlords: The Reawakening Drift City Duels Dungeon Blitz Dungeon Fighter Online Dungeon Overlord Dungeon Party Dungeon Rampage Dungeon Runners Dynastica Dynasty Warriors Online Dynasty of the Magi EIN (Epicus Incognitus) EVE Online Earth Eternal Earth and Beyond Earthrise Eclipse War Ecol Tactics Online Eden Eternal Edge of Space Einherjar - The Viking's Blood Elder Scrolls Online Eldevin Elf Online Elite: Dangerous Embers of Caerus Emil Chronicle Online Empire Empire & State Empire Craft Empire Universe 3 EmpireQuest Empires of Galldon End of Nations Endless Ages Endless Blue Moon Online Endless Online Entropia Universe EpicDuel Erebus: Travia Reborn Eredan Eternal Blade Eternal Lands Eternal Saga Ether Fields Ether Saga Online Eudemons Online EuroGangster EverEmber Online EverQuest Next EverQuest Online Adventures Evernight Everquest Everquest II Everquest Next: Landmark Evony Exarch Exorace F.E.A.R. Online Face of Mankind Fairyland Online Fall of Rome Fallen Earth Fallen Sword Fallout Online Family Guy Online Fantage Fantasy Earth Zero Fantasy Realm Online Fantasy Tales Online Fantasy Worlds: Rhynn Faunasphere Faxion Online Ferentus Ferion Fiesta Online Final Fantasy XI Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Firefall Fists of Fu Florensia Flyff Football Manager Live Football Superstars Force of Arms Forge Forsaken World Fortnite Fortuna Forum for Discussion of Everlight Freaky Creatures Free Realms Freesky Online Freeworld Fung Wan Online Furcadia Fury Fusion Fall
G-L
GalaXseeds Galactic Command Online Game of Thrones: Seven Kingdoms Gameglobe Gate To Heavens Gates of Andaron Gatheryn Gauntlet Gekkeiju Online Ghost Online Ghost Recon Online Gladiatus Glitch Global Agenda Global Soccer Gloria Victis Glory of Gods GoGoRacer Goal Line Blitz Gods and Heroes GodsWar Online Golemizer Golf Star GoonZu Online Graal Kingdoms Granado Espada Online Grand Chase Grand Fantasia Grepolis Grimlands Guild Wars Guild Wars 2 Guild Wars Factions Guild Wars Nightfall H1Z1 Habbo Hotel Hailan Rising HaloSphere2 Haven & Hearth Hawken Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft Helbreath Hellgate Hellgate: London Hello Kitty Online Hero Online Hero Zero Hero's Journey Hero: 108 Online HeroSmash Heroes & Generals Heroes in the Sky Heroes of Bestia Heroes of Gaia Heroes of Might and Magic Online Heroes of Thessalonica Heroes of Three Kingdoms Heroes of the Storm Hex Holic Online Hostile Space Hunter Blade Huxley Illutia Illyriad Immortals USA Imperator Imperian Inferno Legend Infestation: Survivor Stories Infinite Crisis Infinity Infinity Iris Online Iron Grip: Marauders Irth Worlds Island Forge Islands of War Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted Jade Dynasty Jagged Alliance Online Juggernaut Jumpgate Jumpgate Evolution KAL Online Kakele Online Kaos War Karos Online Kartuga Kicks Online King of Kings 3 Kingdom Heroes Kingdom Under Fire II Kingdom of Drakkar Kingory Kings and Legends KingsRoad Kitsu Saga Kiwarriors Knight Age Knight Online Knights of Dream City Kothuria Kung Foo! Kunlun Online L.A.W. LEGO Universe La Tale Land of Chaos Online Lands of Hope: Phoenix Edition LastChaos League of Angels League of Legends - Clash of Fates Legend of Edda: Vengeance Legend of Golden Plume Legend of Katha Legend of Mir 2 Legend of Mir 3 Legendary Champions Lego Minifigures Online Life is Feudal Light of Nova Lime Odyssey Line of Defense Lineage Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance Lineage II Linkrealms Loong Online Lord of the Rings Online Lords Online Lost Saga Lucent Heart Lunia Lusternia: Age of Ascension Luvinia World
M-Q
MU Online Mabinogi Maestia: Rise of Keledus MagiKnights Magic Barrage Magic World Online Manga Fighter MapleStory Martial Heroes Marvel Heroes Marvel Super Hero Squad Online Marvel: Avengers Alliance MechWarrior Online Megaten Meridian 59 : Evolution Merlin MetalMercs Metaplace Metin 2 MicroVolts Midkemia Online Might & Magic Heroes: Kingdoms MilMo Minecraft Mini Fighter Minions of Mirth Ministry of War Monato Esprit Monkey King Online Monkey Quest Monster & Me Monster Madness Online MonsterMMORPG Moonlight Online: Tales of Eternal Blood Mordavia Mortal Online Mourning My Lands Myst Online: URU Live Myth Angels Online Myth War Myth War 2 Mytheon Mythic Saga Mythos N.E.O Online NIDA Online Nadirim Naviage: The Power of Capital Navy Field Need for Speed World Nemexia Neo's Land NeoSteam Neocron Nether Neverwinter Nexus: The Kingdom Of The Winds NinjaTrick NosTale Novus Aeterno Oberin Odin Quest Odyssey RPG Ogre Island Omerta 3 Online Boxing Manager Onverse Order & Chaos Online Order of Magic Original Blood Origins Return Origins of Malu Orion's Belt Otherland Forums OverSoul Overkings Oz Online Oz World Pandora Saga Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Panzar Parabellum Parallel Kingdom Parfait Station Path of Exile Pathfinder Online Perfect World Perpetuum Online Phantasy Star Online 2 Phantasy Star Universe Phoenix Dynasty Online Phylon Pi Story Picaroon Pirate Galaxy Pirate Storm Pirate101 PirateKing Online Pirates of the Burning Sea Pirates of the Caribbean Online Pixie Hollow Planeshift Planet Arkadia Planet Calypso PlanetSide 2 Planetside Planets³ Playboy Manager Pocket Legends Pockie Ninja Pockie Pirates Pockie Saints PoxNora Prime World Prime: Battle for Dominus Priston Tale Priston Tale II Prius Online Project Blackout Project Powder Project Titan Forums Project Wiki Puzzle Pirates Quickhit Football
R-S
R2 Online RAN Online RF Online ROSE Online Rage of 3 Kingdoms Ragnarok Online Ragnarok Online II RaiderZ Rakion Rappelz RappelzSEA Realm Fighter Realm of the Mad God Realm of the Titans Realms Online Reclamation Red Stone Red War: Edem's Curse Regnum Online Remnant Knights Renaissance Repulse Requiem: Memento Mori Rift RiotZone Rise Rise of Dragonian Era Rise of Empire Rise of the Tycoon Rising of King Risk Your Life Rivality Rockfree Rohan: Blood Feud Role Play Worlds Roll n Rock Roma Victor Romadoria Rosh Online Roto X Rubies of Eventide Ruin Online Rumble Fighter Runes of Magic Runescape Rust Rusty Hearts Ryzom S4 League SAGA SD Gundam Capsule Fighter Online SMITE SUN Sagramore Salem SaySayGirls Scarlet Blade Scions of Fate Seal Online: Evolution Second Life Secret of the Solstice Seed Serenia Fantasy Seven Seas Saga Seven Souls Online Sevencore Shadow of Legend Shadowbane Shadowrun Online Shaiya Shattered Galaxy Sho Online Shot Online Shroud of the Avatar SideQuest Siege on Stars Sigonyth: Desert Eternity Silkroad Online Skyblade Skyforge SmashMuck Champions Smoo Online Soldier Front Soul Master Soul Order Online Soul of Guardian Space Heroes Universe Spellcasters Sphere Spiral Knights Spirit Tales Splash Fighters Squad Wars Star Citizen Star Sonata 2 Star Stable Star Supremacy Star Trek Online Star Trek: Infinite Space Star Wars Galaxies Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures Star Wars: The Old Republic StarQuest Online Stargate Worlds Starlight Story Starpires State of Decay SteelWar Online Stone Age 2 Stormfall: Age of War Storybricks Stronghold Kingdoms Sudden Attack Supremacy 1914 Supreme Destiny Sword Girls Sword of Destiny: Rise of Aions SwordX Swords of Heavens Swordsman
T-Z
TERA TS Online Tabula Rasa Tactica Online Tales Runner Tales of Fantasy Tales of Pirates Tales of Pirates II Tales of Solaris Talisman Online Tamer Saga Tank Ace Tantra Online Tatsumaki: Land at War Terra Militaris TerraWorld Online Thang Online The 4th Coming The Agency The Aurora World The Black Watchmen The Chronicle The Chronicles of Spellborn The Crew The Division The Hammers End The Legend of Ares The Lost Titans The Matrix Online The Mighty Quest for Epic Loot The Missing Ink The Mummy Online The Myth of Soma The Pride of Taern The Realm Online The Repopulation The Secret World The Sims Online The Strategems The West Theralon There Therian Saga Thrones of Chaos Tibia Tibia Micro Edition Tiger Knight Titan Siege Titans of Time Toontown Online Top Speed Topia Online Torchlight Total Domination Transformers Universe Traveller AR Travia Online Travian Trials of Ascension Tribal Hero Tribal Wars Tribes Universe Trickster Online Trove Troy Online True Fantasy Live Online Turf Battles Twelve Sky Twelve Sky 2 Twilight War Tynon U.B. Funkeys UFO Online URDEAD Online Ultima Forever: Quest for the Avatar Ultima Online Ultima X: Odyssey Ultimate Naruto Ultimate Soccer Boss Uncharted Waters Online Undercover 2: Merc Wars Underlight Unification Wars Universe Online Utopia Valkyrie Sky Vampire Lord Online Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Vanquish Space Vector City Racers Vendetta Online Victory - Age of Racing Vindictus Virtonomics Vis Gladius Visions of Zosimos VoidExpanse Voyage Century Online W.E.L.L. Online WAR (Warhammer Online) WAR2 Glory WYD Global Wakfu War Thunder War of 2012 War of Angels War of Legends War of Mercenaries War of Thrones War of the Immortals WarFlow Waren Story Wargame1942 Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade Warhammer 40K: Dark Millennium Online Warhammer Online: Wrath of Heroes Warkeepers Warrior Epic Wartune WebLords Wild West Online WildStar Wind of Luck WindSlayer 2 Wings of Destiny Wish Wizard101 Wizardry Online Wizards and Champions Wonder King Wonderland Online World Golf Tour World of Battles World of Darkness World of Heroes World of Kung Fu World of Pirates World of Speed World of Tanks World of Tanks Generals World of Warcraft World of Warplanes World of Warships World of the Living Dead WorldAlpha Wurm Online Xenocell Xiah Xsyon Xulu YS Online Yitien ZU Online Zentia Zero Online Zero Online: The Andromeda Crisis Zodiac Online Zombies Ate My Pizza eRepublik

MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

General Discussion

General Discussion 

The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Vanguard could have changed everything !

7 Pages 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 » Search
123 posts found
  page975

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/02/13
Posts: 317

 
OP  10/20/13 5:57:14 AM#1

Lets just Pretend that Vanguard was everything is was supposed to be.

Lets just say that Vanguard didn't have coding problems, chunking between zones, better graphics and more interesting quest, a game that had something for casual and hardcore, a good balance.  Even add your own good stuff to the mix...... Lets just say everything went as planned " just pretend ".  If so, I really believe this would have been another WoW, Everquest,UO,Eve, and LOTRO, possibly bigger.

With that :

I think Vanguard would have made a major impact on the short 30 day crap games that we have today.  Less people would side and support short theme park, with no sociable interactions other than dynamic events.

More people would be on board with old school.  In fact Old school should not even be a word. The way I see it, old school=mmo. Old school should have evolved with better graphics and interesting stuff to do.  Instead DEVELOPERS COMPLETELY CHANGED THE FORMULA....Did anyone ask for this change ?....Did you ?

If Old School mmos went in the right direction and evolved properly, we would have something for the casual players mixed in with hard core.  I hate to use this example but WoW sociologicaly did things right. They went into the mind of players and seen that some like hard content and others like easy...You had both in WoW ( at least in Vanilla ).

Vanguard could have changed everything....less people would put up with crap.

  jfoytek

Novice Member

Joined: 6/25/12
Posts: 151

10/20/13 6:44:21 AM#2

You need water to put out fire....

 

Ultima and Everquest were the polar opposites in the old days...

 

WoW has taken the Theampark thrown from EQ....

 

But the developers haven't made a sandbox game capable of taking the Sandbox Throne from Ultima Onile....

 

Mark my word the game that surpases WoW and knocks it off the stump will not be a theam park it will be a Sandbox!!!

UO,Shadowbane,SWG,Darkfall,MO,Wurm Online,Secretworld,GW,GW2,PotBS,LotR,Atlantica Online,WWII Online,WoT,Battlestar Galactica,Planetside2,Perpetuum,Fallen Earth,Runescape,WoW,Eve,Xsylon,Dragon Prophet, Salem

  DeaconX

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/08/05
Posts: 3059

Stand up for what you believe; Even if you stand alone.
-==X==-
SHH, my COMMON SENSE is tingling!

10/20/13 6:55:50 AM#3
Originally posted by jfoytek

 

 


 

Mark my word the game that surpases WoW and knocks it off the stump will not be a theam park it will be a Sandbox!!!

I've been saying it for nearly a decade now...

Themepark + Sandbox hybrid is the key. The perfect blend of both philosophies and designs, offering enough content and guidance to keep the point of entry low and easy enough... but with enough depth and freedom to keep the community growing strong, developing ownership and attachment.


Why do I write, create, fantasize, dream and daydream about other worlds? Because I hate what humanity does with this one.

BOYCOTTING EA / ORIGIN going forward.

  dotdotdash

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/01/11
Posts: 334

10/20/13 6:58:10 AM#4


Lets just Pretend that Vanguard was everything is was supposed to be.
Lets just say that Vanguard didn't have coding problems, chunking between zones, better graphics and more interesting quest, a game that had something for casual and hardcore, a good balance. Even add your own good stuff to the mix...... Lets just say everything went as planned " just pretend ". If so, I really believe this would have been another WoW, Everquest,UO,Eve, and LOTRO, possibly bigger.

Really?

After reading this bit, and I didn't read further, I paraphrased it down to: "Let's pretend that Vanguard was everything that every MMO since World of Warcraft has CLAIMED to be prior to release."

Most of the hyperbole and feature discussion that comes out of MMO developers prior to release is a load of rubbish. Every single one of them is guilty of it as well. They don't actually make any promises, they just discuss in vague terms what makes their version of X content/feature better than (or more innovative than) that type of content in other games, but when we get to release it just ends up being "same s**t, different game".

Seriously. It's par for the course at this point. Get over it.

  page975

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/02/13
Posts: 317

 
OP  10/20/13 7:12:50 AM#5
Originally posted by dotdotdash

 


Lets just Pretend that Vanguard was everything is was supposed to be.
Lets just say that Vanguard didn't have coding problems, chunking between zones, better graphics and more interesting quest, a game that had something for casual and hardcore, a good balance. Even add your own good stuff to the mix...... Lets just say everything went as planned " just pretend ". If so, I really believe this would have been another WoW, Everquest,UO,Eve, and LOTRO, possibly bigger.

 

Really?

After reading this bit, and I didn't read further, I paraphrased it down to: "Let's pretend that Vanguard was everything that every MMO since World of Warcraft has CLAIMED to be prior to release."

Most of the hyperbole and feature discussion that comes out of MMO developers prior to release is a load of rubbish. Every single one of them is guilty of it as well. They don't actually make any promises, they just discuss in vague terms what makes their version of X content/feature better than (or more innovative than) that type of content in other games, but when we get to release it just ends up being "same s**t, different game".

Seriously. It's par for the course at this point. Get over it.

No one asked you to read anything...........Your stuff just seems to be jebberish anyway !

  DMKano

Elite Member

Joined: 6/17/11
Posts: 3767

10/20/13 7:22:51 AM#6
Originally posted by page975

Lets just Pretend that Vanguard was everything is was supposed to be.

Lets just say that Vanguard didn't have coding problems, chunking between zones, better graphics and more interesting quest, a game that had something for casual and hardcore, a good balance.  Even add your own good stuff to the mix...... Lets just say everything went as planned " just pretend ".  If so, I really believe this would have been another WoW, Everquest,UO,Eve, and LOTRO, possibly bigger.

With that :

I think Vanguard would have made a major impact on the short 30 day crap games that we have today.  Less people would side and support short theme park, with no sociable interactions other than dynamic events.

More people would be on board with old school.  In fact Old school should not even be a word. The way I see it, old school=mmo. Old school should have evolved with better graphics and interesting stuff to do.  Instead DEVELOPERS COMPLETELY CHANGED THE FORMULA....Did anyone ask for this change ?....Did you ?

If Old School mmos went in the right direction and evolved properly, we would have something for the casual players mixed in with hard core.  I hate to use this example but WoW sociologicaly did things right. They went into the mind of players and seen that some like hard content and others like easy...You had both in WoW ( at least in Vanilla ).

Vanguard could have changed everything....less people would put up with crap.

Vanguard was a spiritual successor to EQ1, it is a game deserving EQ2 name (unlike EQ2).

I played it for 2.5 years since launch, I had a killer gaming PC at the time that could run VGSoH without crashing issues that plagued so many other players.

But even if it had none of the problems it still wouldn't have changed anything IMO - the player base who want this type of gameplay is very limited, that is the truth.

 

One thing that many seem to miss is that MMO players evolve and change over time, the playerbase that played UO and EQ1 back in 1998/9 (I am one of those) has different priorities now.

I don't have 8 hours to play per day, heck nobody should be doing that - it is not healthy - and frankly MMO devs should not be designing games that encourage that sort of gameplay.

Games are entertainment, I don't support games becoming a "virtual online life" anymore, again shorter term games are obviously preferred these days as players need time for friends, family and their own wellbeing. 

Anything that disrupts essential RL activities, is IMO undesirable, and this includes old-school "spend every waking hour online" MMOs.

So IMO Vanguard didn't change anything because the majority of players just are not interested in that style of gameplay, even if VG was perfect technically the same thing would have happened.

 

 

  Vunak23

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/27/10
Posts: 650

In your house Eatin' your Cookies!

10/20/13 7:42:13 AM#7

The problem I see is that the casual playstyle has dictated the way a game is developed. People say that the older MMO's didn't have casual friendly content and that is completely absurd. In the older games all casual meant was that you progressed slower than the more average/hardcore player. 

Apparently that has become something unacceptable over the years. Now casual players progress at the same rate that hardcore players would have progressed 10 years ago. Meaning the Hardcore players are progressing 10x faster than normal and making content trivial after a few weeks. Leading to casuals still feeling gated because they can't get into the endgame. 

The only thing casualized development has done is shorten the lifespan an MMO has or increase the rate at which developers must churn out content. Which in the end gives us less creative content/more rushed leading to players being bored and leaving. 

Things need to slow back down. Not Lineage 2 slow. But perhaps FFXI slow. It shouldn't take you a day or two to get to max level (especially with the way games are releasing endgame content with only one or two dungeons and a raid). Getting to max level should feel like an accomplishment. 

 

Casualization has also brought about the dumbing down of content. As per a massively article yesterday, we have lost the Support/CC role in our MMO's. A role that was a huge tactful playstyle that would allow people to address content in a multitude of ways. Now CC is just  a way to frustrate/excite people in PvP. CC is hardly ever if at all used in PvE anymore and it is all rolled into DPS classes. Whats next, Healers and Tanks?...Oh wait. 

Why are people burning through endgame content so fast? Why does it seem like after every expansion or every new game that releases things just keep getting easier and easier. Mob AI is unintelligent. Mechanics are lazy and don't bring about anything new. Seriously, how many times are we gonna see the don't stand in the fire mechanic being used as an endgame boss mechanic that is supposed to be super difficult. Increased HP Value =/= Increased Difficulty. 

"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then we’ve got another one that is actually going to be – so we’re going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what we’re targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you can’t hold me to it. But what we’re targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo

  flizzer

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/10/12
Posts: 790

10/20/13 7:44:22 AM#8
Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by page975

Lets just Pretend that Vanguard was everything is was supposed to be.

Lets just say that Vanguard didn't have coding problems, chunking between zones, better graphics and more interesting quest, a game that had something for casual and hardcore, a good balance.  Even add your own good stuff to the mix...... Lets just say everything went as planned " just pretend ".  If so, I really believe this would have been another WoW, Everquest,UO,Eve, and LOTRO, possibly bigger.

With that :

I think Vanguard would have made a major impact on the short 30 day crap games that we have today.  Less people would side and support short theme park, with no sociable interactions other than dynamic events.

More people would be on board with old school.  In fact Old school should not even be a word. The way I see it, old school=mmo. Old school should have evolved with better graphics and interesting stuff to do.  Instead DEVELOPERS COMPLETELY CHANGED THE FORMULA....Did anyone ask for this change ?....Did you ?

If Old School mmos went in the right direction and evolved properly, we would have something for the casual players mixed in with hard core.  I hate to use this example but WoW sociologicaly did things right. They went into the mind of players and seen that some like hard content and others like easy...You had both in WoW ( at least in Vanilla ).

Vanguard could have changed everything....less people would put up with crap.

Vanguard was a spiritual successor to EQ1, it is a game deserving EQ2 name (unlike EQ2).

I played it for 2.5 years since launch, I had a killer gaming PC at the time that could run VGSoH without crashing issues that plagued so many other players.

But even if it had none of the problems it still wouldn't have changed anything IMO - the player base who want this type of gameplay is very limited, that is the truth.

 

One thing that many seem to miss is that MMO players evolve and change over time, the playerbase that played UO and EQ1 back in 1998/9 (I am one of those) has different priorities now.

I don't have 8 hours to play per day, heck nobody should be doing that - it is not healthy - and frankly MMO devs should not be designing games that encourage that sort of gameplay.

Games are entertainment, I don't support games becoming a "virtual online life" anymore, again shorter term games are obviously preferred these days as players need time for friends, family and their own wellbeing. 

Anything that disrupts essential RL activities, is IMO undesirable, and this includes old-school "spend every waking hour online" MMOs.

So IMO Vanguard didn't change anything because the majority of players just are not interested in that style of gameplay, even if VG was perfect technically the same thing would have happened.

 

 

ive been also saying this in some form or another every time this issue pops up. If the majority of the gaming world wanted these games, we would be playing them. 

WoW has millions of subscribers. Get over it.

  Neo_Viper

Novice Member

Joined: 5/10/13
Posts: 624

If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong.

10/20/13 7:47:05 AM#9

How could an EQ clone with some WoW elements sprinkled on it have changed anything? How could more of the same be the future? You can't be serious!

Games like Darkfall or Mortal Online could have changed everything if they weren't of such low production quality and also PvP gank fests. I still hope that either Archeage or EQ Next will achieve what those have failed to do. There's still GW2, which changed something by kicking the hornet's nest of the endless series of WoW clones though.

My computer is better than yours.

  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4508

10/20/13 7:47:13 AM#10

No offense OP, but this thread is rather pointless.

Your argument basically amounts to 'pretend Vanguard was something it wasn't' followed by 'insert what you would've wanted it to be'. In which case you think it would've been the next WoW. Well, ANY game could've been the next WoW if we're comparing imaginary games that never existed.

Vanguard was what it was, it was a good game (with many issues), and it did not become the next WoW. Not even close. Furthermore, even if Vanguard were to somehow be re-released today with everything you wanted, it would still not be the next WoW.

Why? There's been numerous threads discussing this very topic on these forums alone:

- WoW's success is due to more than just how the game was made. Much more. The bulk of WoW's success came from Blizzard pulling in a LARGE OUTSIDE MARKET into the MMO genre. Something that is not really doable anymore, because the genre is already very large.

- Because of the fact above, WoW was most of this 'new market's first MMO. As such, for those people it will always be the pinacle of MMOs. Just as for many of us, our first MMOs are 'so much better than todays games'. It's that first love phenomina, and once you get people hooked on a game, they are extremely unlikely to move on to another game, even if it is 100% better. You're brain attempts to rationalize, distort truths, and reinforce your own belief that you are indeed playing the superior game.

- WoW is the most dumbed game, and does one of the best jobs at rewarding people for minimal effort. It's the type of game where anybody can play it, and yet still feel like they are the hero. That somehow, even though a million other people are doing the same thing, their play is somehow special. These are characteristics of popular games, and it's for this reason that we see so many games throwing out achievements like candy, and dumbing down their mechanics to a toddler-like skill level. In other words, the game is the most accessible.

- Furthermore, WoW shamelessly steals ideas from it's competition. Every time a game introduces a good idea that Blizzard thinks it can assimilate into WoW, they do it. This didn't help the game become successful, but it is essentially a stop-gap that allows the game to remain successful, longer.

I could go on, but I think my point's been made. A lot of people focus on how a game is made & it's graphics when talking about whether or not a game will be successful. However, we have dozens of examples of games with both, that still fail. And none are anywhere close to as successful as WoW is right now.

The next game to be like WoW will come only when the following things happen:

1) A bulk of the playerbase stops playing MMOs (at which point it will be the game that re-introduces them to the genre)

2) Player's change their mentality about how a game should be played. (kill all the things, to get all the loot, to kill all the things....). Many of us don't realize this, but we are reinforcing the very same games we complain about having. We get all these WoW clones because we repeatedly show that we want more WoW clones. And when we get games that aren't WoW clones, we complain that they suck, don't have enough 'endgame' or 'loot', and then go on to play more WoW clones.

It's a vicious cycle, and until it breaks, we have small hopes for a next big thing. There are many new interesting games being made. MMOs are changing. We just don't seem to give a damn.

  Muke

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/07
Posts: 1483

10/20/13 7:49:42 AM#11
Originally posted by page975

Lets just Pretend that Vanguard was everything is was supposed to be.

Lets just say that Vanguard didn't have coding problems, chunking between zones, better graphics and more interesting quest, a game that had something for casual and hardcore, a good balance.  Even add your own good stuff to the mix...... Lets just say everything went as planned " just pretend ".  If so, I really believe this would have been another WoW, Everquest,UO,Eve, and LOTRO, possibly bigger.

With that :

I think Vanguard would have made a major impact on the short 30 day crap games that we have today.  Less people would side and support short theme park, with no sociable interactions other than dynamic events.

More people would be on board with old school.  In fact Old school should not even be a word. The way I see it, old school=mmo. Old school should have evolved with better graphics and interesting stuff to do.  Instead DEVELOPERS COMPLETELY CHANGED THE FORMULA....Did anyone ask for this change ?....Did you ?

If Old School mmos went in the right direction and evolved properly, we would have something for the casual players mixed in with hard core.  I hate to use this example but WoW sociologicaly did things right. They went into the mind of players and seen that some like hard content and others like easy...You had both in WoW ( at least in Vanilla ).

Vanguard could have changed everything....less people would put up with crap.

You should remove EVE from the group of possibilities, that game is a complete sandbox situated in 1 virtual world, the othe rgames you describe - including Vanguard-  are themepark MMOs based on separate server with the same 'worlds' on them.

"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  Lobotomist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/20/07
Posts: 4702

I got so much trouble on my mind Refuse to lose.

10/20/13 7:50:09 AM#12

There is no question that Vanguard was the Last Mohican - I mean last MMORPG

 

When Vanguard failed - they could have just put the key into the door of this site, and close it forever.

It was the end of the generation , end of a concept that EQ created.

And after that , all was simply ride downhill.

GW2 is probably the ultimate slap in the face of Vanguard.

 

To this day I am sad for it.

Dont know how many of you were on mmorpg.com in Vanguard days. But the amount of hate and arguments was something this site never seen since. And you know this site seen it a lot.

It was obvious a chance was missed, that would never come again...

 

  Neo_Viper

Novice Member

Joined: 5/10/13
Posts: 624

If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong.

10/20/13 7:59:32 AM#13
Originally posted by Lobotomist

There is no question that Vanguard was the Last Mohican - I mean last MMORPG

 

When Vanguard failed - they could have just put the key into the door of this site, and close it forever.

It was the end of the generation , end of a concept that EQ created.

And after that , all was simply ride downhill.

GW2 is probably the ultimate slap in the face of Vanguard.

 

To this day I am sad for it.

Dont know how many of you were on mmorpg.com in Vanguard days. But the amount of hate and arguments was something this site never seen since. And you know this site seen it a lot.

It was obvious a chance was missed, that would never come again...

 

The millions of players who play GW2 disagree with you. As well as the multi-millions who play all the other MMORPGs that aren't Vanguard.

Vanguard failed not only because of poor production quality (bugs, lag, need a monster computer to run it) but also because its whole design was obsolete, and because for people who wanted an EQ clone raid end game, WoW did it better 3 years earlier too. Add to this an arrogant lead developer with his head so stuck in his own bottom that he didn't realize his concept was going to tank badly, and you have Vanguard.

Vanguard had no chance against WoW, and no chance either against LOTRO which was released a couple of months later and which was a MUCH better "EQ/WoW clone" game too.

My computer is better than yours.

  Lobotomist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/20/07
Posts: 4702

I got so much trouble on my mind Refuse to lose.

10/20/13 8:01:31 AM#14
Originally posted by Neo_Viper
Originally posted by Lobotomist

There is no question that Vanguard was the Last Mohican - I mean last MMORPG

 

When Vanguard failed - they could have just put the key into the door of this site, and close it forever.

It was the end of the generation , end of a concept that EQ created.

And after that , all was simply ride downhill.

GW2 is probably the ultimate slap in the face of Vanguard.

 

To this day I am sad for it.

Dont know how many of you were on mmorpg.com in Vanguard days. But the amount of hate and arguments was something this site never seen since. And you know this site seen it a lot.

It was obvious a chance was missed, that would never come again...

 

The millions of players who play GW2 disagree with you. As well as the multi-millions who play all the other MMORPGs that aren't Vanguard.

Vanguard failed not only because of poor production quality (bugs, lag, need a monster computer to run it) but also because its whole design was obsolete, and because for people who wanted an EQ clone raid end game, WoW did it better 3 years earlier too. Add to this an arrogant lead developer with his head so stuck in his own bottom that he didn't realize his concept was going to tank badly, and you have Vanguard.

Vanguard had no chance against WoW, and no chance either against LOTRO which was released a couple of months later and which was a MUCH better "EQ/WoW clone" game too.

I am not saying GW2 is bad

Just that its anti-thesis of Vanguard

 

  Neo_Viper

Novice Member

Joined: 5/10/13
Posts: 624

If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong.

10/20/13 8:05:59 AM#15
Originally posted by Lobotomist

I am not saying GW2 is bad

Just that its anti-thesis of Vanguard

Which is in my opinion a good thing. We had our fill of EQ and then EQ/WoW clones. About time some AAA developers try different things, even if it doesn't please everyone. And yeah, Vanguard was just another of those clones.

This is a bit like those people who like to drive collection cars. A few may enjoy maintaining a 1960's Ford Mustang, and feeding it with the 20+ liters of gas per 100km it needs, but most adult, mature and realistic people realize the design is obsolete, and that those cars are ecological and financial disasters.

My computer is better than yours.

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18368

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

10/20/13 8:06:25 AM#16
Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by page975

Lets just Pretend that Vanguard was everything is was supposed to be.

 

One thing that many seem to miss is that MMO players evolve and change over time, the playerbase that played UO and EQ1 back in 1998/9 (I am one of those) has different priorities now.

I don't have 8 hours to play per day, heck nobody should be doing that - it is not healthy - and frankly MMO devs should not be designing games that encourage that sort of gameplay.

Games are entertainment, I don't support games becoming a "virtual online life" anymore, again shorter term games are obviously preferred these days as players need time for friends, family and their own wellbeing. 

No, the player base didn't change, at least not in the way you describe.  You started MMO gaming at a time in your life when you had more free time.  I was already much older and had far less time than you so I set aside what I could and focused on the aspects of older titles and skipped the others.

Time marches on, you no longer have the free time you did, but since my children grew up I now have much more free time so am looking for more time consuming content.

Also, a new generation has stepped in behind you to take your former slot and they  have as much time as you ever did and can devote the time required.

10-12 years ago, there was a large number of people who would not play these games due to their time consuming virtual world designs, and what really changed is the game designs themselves to draw them into the market since they actually were the larger segment as WOW proved so that's what every AAA developer has been chasing since.

Back to Vanguard.  It really was a reinvention of EQ 1, so I don't see it as the game changer the OP does, it's success might have drawn a few more dev's into creating more alternate versions of it, but WOW was the big dog in the room and it's features are what appealed to a far greater percentage of the market and even in VG was almost perfect, it would not have appealed to this new casual player base that Blizzard managed to unlock.

 

"The discrepancy between what we know is possible and what we currently have to choose from is beyond disappointing" - GeezerGamer
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Ender4

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/18/08
Posts: 2042

10/20/13 8:11:51 AM#17


Which is in my opinion a good thing. We had our fill of EQ and then EQ/WoW clones. About time some AAA developers try different things, even if it doesn't please everyone. And yeah, Vanguard was just another of those clones.

GW2 is way more like WoW than EQ was. I think that is where your premise falls apart. GW2 is a soft clone of WoW. EQ and WOW were really nothing alike other than being fantasy MMORPG with raids in them.

2 of the 3 have casual friendly hub based leveling. GW2 and WoW
2 of the 3 have most of the group content thrown into instances. GW2 and WoW
2 of the 3 have item only progression at max level. GW2 and WoW
2 of the 3 throw PvP into special instances. GW2 and WoW
2 of the 3 have talent tree style character builds. GW2 and WoW
2 of the 3 have very simplistic and more importantly forgiving crafting system. GW2 and WoW
2 of the 3 have sort of a cheesy sense of humor and a lot of goofy stuff thrown in. GW2 and WoW.

When I play GW2 I more or less do exactly the same things I did when I played WoW. MOve around from POI to POI and complete the little objectives and maybe queue up for a dungeon instance or PvP. EQ was more about finding out what friends were up to or finding a place I could actually solo since there weren't a ton of them. The game didn't lead you around by the nose and it certainly didn't pull you right out of the world the way the WoW clones constantly do. Take the events out of GW2 and I'd call it a hard clone of WoW. Since they mixed up how combat works some and added the events it is more of soft clone.

  Neo_Viper

Novice Member

Joined: 5/10/13
Posts: 624

If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong.

10/20/13 8:20:22 AM#18
Originally posted by Ender4

 


Which is in my opinion a good thing. We had our fill of EQ and then EQ/WoW clones. About time some AAA developers try different things, even if it doesn't please everyone. And yeah, Vanguard was just another of those clones.

 

GW2 is way more like WoW than EQ was. I think that is where your premise falls apart. GW2 is a soft clone of WoW. EQ and WOW were really nothing alike other than being fantasy MMORPG with raids in them.

Anyone who played (or like me, still plays) both GW2 and WoW knows that what you posted it complete nonsense. GW2's design is totally different from WoW, both in the leveling and in the end game aspects. WoW is an EQ clone with quests slapped on it, same end game (raid grind based). Several of the original WoW developers were actually coming from EQ.

My computer is better than yours.

  DMKano

Elite Member

Joined: 6/17/11
Posts: 3767

10/20/13 8:21:43 AM#19
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by page975

Lets just Pretend that Vanguard was everything is was supposed to be.

 

One thing that many seem to miss is that MMO players evolve and change over time, the playerbase that played UO and EQ1 back in 1998/9 (I am one of those) has different priorities now.

I don't have 8 hours to play per day, heck nobody should be doing that - it is not healthy - and frankly MMO devs should not be designing games that encourage that sort of gameplay.

Games are entertainment, I don't support games becoming a "virtual online life" anymore, again shorter term games are obviously preferred these days as players need time for friends, family and their own wellbeing. 

No, the player base didn't change, at least not in the way you describe.  You started MMO gaming at a time in your life when you had more free time.  I was already much older and had far less time than you so I set aside what I could and focused on the aspects of older titles and skipped the others.

Time marches on, you no longer have the free time you did, but since my children grew up I now have much more free time so am looking for more time consuming content.

Also, a new generation has stepped in behind you to take your former slot and they  have as much time as you ever did and can devote the time required.

10-12 years ago, there was a large number of people who would not play these games due to their time consuming virtual world designs, and what really changed is the game designs themselves to draw them into the market since they actually were the larger segment as WOW proved so that's what every AAA developer has been chasing since.

Back to Vanguard.  It really was a reinvention of EQ 1, so I don't see it as the game changer the OP does, it's success might have drawn a few more dev's into creating more alternate versions of it, but WOW was the big dog in the room and it's features are what appealed to a far greater percentage of the market and even in VG was almost perfect, it would not have appealed to this new casual player base that Blizzard managed to unlock.

 

The popular (as in largest group) preference has changed.

Sure even today there is a very small segment that will play a LP on their record player, the rest of the world has moved on to digital music.

Vanguard/EQ1 slow progression games still have appeal to a small segment of the player base, the rest has moved on to MMOs where a casual player can be at endgame content in less than 100hours played.

 

  Ender4

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/18/08
Posts: 2042

10/20/13 8:24:11 AM#20


Anyone who played (or like me, still plays) both GW2 and WoW knows that what you posted it complete nonsense. GW2's design is totally different from WoW, both in the leveling and in the end game aspects. WoW is an EQ clone with quests slapped on it, same end game (raid grind based). Several of the original WoW developers were actually coming from EQ

I have played all 3 heavily and I completely disagree with you. You seem fixated on the raid aspects and I'm looking more at how the full games function. A huge part of it is the hub based leveling, the casual friendly aspects and the instancing. These create the same core game. If you ask me what WoW did to change the core of the MMORPG it is exactly those things and those are all carried over into GW2 and did not exist in EQ.

You didn't have to raid for an end game in EQ either and you certainly don't have to in WoW where you can get gear thrown at you from heroics or PvP. All GW2 did was replace the raids with large scale mob events.

7 Pages 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 » Search