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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » mmo RPG have we misunderstod it ??

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104 posts found
  Bladestrom

Elite Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 3677

10/18/13 12:56:59 PM#61
^^ I agree in a way, old d&d games did not have performance meters and was much more social in that the players of d&d agreed and developed rules to enhance the playability of the game - killing the boss and getting loot was not why they were (and are) good. The enjoyment if the gaming session was what it was all about. Rpg is a part if this, players enjoyed the material, tactile and social elements.

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (1000 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (480 Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(900 elementalist), Wildstar

Now playing GW2, AOW 3

  dave6660

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/26/08
Posts: 2350

"Next time I see you, remind me not to talk to you."

10/18/13 1:08:42 PM#62
Originally posted by monochrome19

So, if you do away with quest how will people progress?

killing mobs all day? that would be terrible. Crafting? Eh...

Face it, quest are NECESSARY.

As mind numbing as they may be they are a vital component in the mmo soup.

So "killing mobs all day" is terrible but having the computer tell you to kill mobs all day some how makes it fun?

"Why so serious?"
-- The Joker

  nariusseldon

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20226

10/18/13 1:49:20 PM#63
Originally posted by TheRealDarkeus
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by monochrome19
of course everyone wants to forge their own story and have it be unique. but that still doesnt answer the question of how you remove quest and still allow for meaningful progression.

You don't speak for me.

I want to consume professionally produced story content.

Same here.  And this is actually what I believe to be the weakness of the MMORPG in my opinion anyway.  Even a fantastic MMO like The Secret World deal with this issue.

 

See, a C-RPG ends.  No matter how much you play around in Skyrim or Fallout: New Vegas, eventually you get to the end of the story.  The credits roll, you feel cool for beating the game and then you may start a New Game+ or something else.  It is easy to consume the story, progress your character and have a feeling of accomplishment at the end as you stand triumphant (Or not) in your ending.

 

MMORPG games really don't end.  The devs are required to tack on more and more story and diversions to keep people playing that look for more story than social bonding.  It is cool to log in and hang out with friends and do things in quest-based games.  However, it will always lead to "endgame" and that endgame usually has no story, no purpose.  You just grind for gear and repeat content until you quit or the devs give you something new.

Sometimes I myself wonder if quest are necessary in MMO games.  Then I realize that Endgame is what really needs to be changed.  The raids and grinding, meh.  There has to be a new incentive.  So maybe that does involve improving quest and the way they are done.  As for answers, I don't have any at the moment.

Well, if devs is tacking on more content, it is not unlike SP games with DLCs, and sequels.

And they do end for me when the content is consumed.

 

  NL-Rikkert

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/22/11
Posts: 122

Currently playing:Allods Online,Trove (Beta),HOMM3

10/18/13 2:03:12 PM#64

Lol it is true, today 'RPG' means having a skilltree in your game.. 

Sad to see most MMO's focus on getting gear, leveling up and going on raids.

Wish RPG would mean a brilliant storyline with interesting characters and beautiful scenery yet again.

STOOPID
When someone does something so utterly moronic that it kills your brain cells at the very thought of it.

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3372

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

10/18/13 2:19:50 PM#65


Originally posted by Ozivois
I love it when folks get philosophical here.

Defining RPG is not done by breaking down what the words mean. MMORPG's use of the role playing game term is in direct connection to D&D role playing games; it's as simple as that.

As such, What a D&D game boiled down to was the simple mechanics of moving along a map while the DM performed hundreds of dice rolls that determined what monsters appeared, how much damage each character did, how much damage each character took, etc.

Therefore, an end-game raid is very much a virtual RPG. And just like the old D&D games, the "lore and role-play" aspect of the game can be either taken seriously or dismissed as a trivial feature of the game, as so many players seem to do.



D&D is played as many different ways as there are DMs. One of my DMs wrote the story out beforehand and we played a mini-game of "Can Al screw up the story?"

Another DM had his world all done up and just plopped down our characters (yes multiple characters: 2-4 each) with a brief description of the area and said "What do you do?" We did not name our characters here until we reached 3rd level. Lots of death and dieing there due to open die rolls in front of everybody.

I had 2 DMs that had great worlds and guided us with NPC interactions just like quests. There was a running joke in their campaigns about guys who hung out in bars wearing yellow t-shirts with a big red "R" on the front for the easily identified "vicious rumors" they both were famous (in our group) for :)

Then there was the DM my group did not play with much that had the "Me vs. Them" attitude and tried to "win" by killing off all of the players/characters.

None of these DMs had an "endgame." When we got too powerful, we retired and rolled up new characters. Never had a "raid." I guess that would literally be "the endgame" (end of the game) for those characters :)

As pointed out, the RPG is defined by each individual. For some, it is taking on a completely different role from themselves and going forth. For some, it is putting themselves into the game as their character.

Still others point to the mechanics of the game. Is there character progression? Is there a story?

Words are like that. What may be crystal clear to one person may be clear as mud to another. "RPG." What do you think of when you read those three letters together like that?

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  TheRealDarkeus

Novice Member

Joined: 6/26/13
Posts: 287

“I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes.

10/18/13 2:31:16 PM#66
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by TheRealDarkeus
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by monochrome19
of course everyone wants to forge their own story and have it be unique. but that still doesnt answer the question of how you remove quest and still allow for meaningful progression.

You don't speak for me.

I want to consume professionally produced story content.

Same here.  And this is actually what I believe to be the weakness of the MMORPG in my opinion anyway.  Even a fantastic MMO like The Secret World deal with this issue.

 

See, a C-RPG ends.  No matter how much you play around in Skyrim or Fallout: New Vegas, eventually you get to the end of the story.  The credits roll, you feel cool for beating the game and then you may start a New Game+ or something else.  It is easy to consume the story, progress your character and have a feeling of accomplishment at the end as you stand triumphant (Or not) in your ending.

 

MMORPG games really don't end.  The devs are required to tack on more and more story and diversions to keep people playing that look for more story than social bonding.  It is cool to log in and hang out with friends and do things in quest-based games.  However, it will always lead to "endgame" and that endgame usually has no story, no purpose.  You just grind for gear and repeat content until you quit or the devs give you something new.

Sometimes I myself wonder if quest are necessary in MMO games.  Then I realize that Endgame is what really needs to be changed.  The raids and grinding, meh.  There has to be a new incentive.  So maybe that does involve improving quest and the way they are done.  As for answers, I don't have any at the moment.

Well, if devs is tacking on more content, it is not unlike SP games with DLCs, and sequels.

And they do end for me when the content is consumed.

 

Right, but you don't have people rushing through it and then complaining that they need moar content now in SP games.  The DLC can come out on their own time schedule without a customer base making topics like these about quest or lack of stuff to do when the game ends..  Heck, sometimes a SP sequel has nothing to do with the first game except for style (See Final Fantasy).

And yeah, you can end an MMO game yourself.  However, the game does not end when you quit.  The guy that was standing beside you when you logged out is probably doing Dallies while waiting for the Raid....

  nariusseldon

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20226

10/18/13 2:48:11 PM#67
Originally posted by TheRealDarkeus

 

Right, but you don't have people rushing through it and then complaining that they need moar content now in SP games.  The DLC can come out on their own time schedule without a customer base making topics like these about quest or lack of stuff to do when the game ends..  Heck, sometimes a SP sequel has nothing to do with the first game except for style (See Final Fantasy).

And yeah, you can end an MMO game yourself.  However, the game does not end when you quit.  The guy that was standing beside you when you logged out is probably doing Dallies while waiting for the Raid....

Those differences are irrelevant to me.

Some people may complain. So? People complains about SP DLCs too ... they are cash grab, they takes too long to come out ... and what-not. None of those complaints matter to me. It is not like those complains are sinking the industry.

On the issue of "ending" ... what is the definition? Even if i finish a SP game, there are others who are still playing it, and some even online. So there is nothing different from a MMO. Look at D3. If i don't play it, a lot of others will still do. So "ending" is relative to a particular player anyway.

For me, a MMO ends and that is it. What others may or may not do does not concern me, not unlike in SP games.

 

  TheRealDarkeus

Novice Member

Joined: 6/26/13
Posts: 287

“I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes.

10/18/13 2:53:43 PM#68
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by TheRealDarkeus

 

Right, but you don't have people rushing through it and then complaining that they need moar content now in SP games.  The DLC can come out on their own time schedule without a customer base making topics like these about quest or lack of stuff to do when the game ends..  Heck, sometimes a SP sequel has nothing to do with the first game except for style (See Final Fantasy).

And yeah, you can end an MMO game yourself.  However, the game does not end when you quit.  The guy that was standing beside you when you logged out is probably doing Dallies while waiting for the Raid....

Those differences are irrelevant to me.

Some people may complain. So? People complains about SP DLCs too ... they are cash grab, they takes too long to come out ... and what-not. None of those complaints matter to me. It is not like those complains are sinking the industry.

On the issue of "ending" ... what is the definition? Even if i finish a SP game, there are others who are still playing it, and some even online. So there is nothing different from a MMO. Look at D3. If i don't play it, a lot of others will still do. So "ending" is relative to a particular player anyway.

For me, a MMO ends and that is it. What others may or may not do does not concern me, not unlike in SP games.

 

Fair enough.  I do see it very differently than you but that is life.  :-)

  Steelhelm

Novice Member

Joined: 7/17/13
Posts: 41

10/18/13 3:29:06 PM#69

I think what people want is many different kinds of interactions between the game and between players, a good game should in my opinion provide extensive tools for player to player interaction and lots of choices; which are in modern mmos forgotten mostly after character creation. I'm thinking: if you see a granny on the street, what choices do you have? maybe you can rob her openly, or pick pocket her, or help her cross the street, escort her home, give her flowers, help her at the farm, help build a new house for her, defend her against bandits/other players, or even kill her, turn her into a zombie, train her to fetch stuff for you, I don't know, you name it. The game should also register all the choices... to build your character and have factions where you can join only with enough "bad stuff" done and vice versa... Let people build shacks and castles and colonize the world... make territories where different factions are at war with each other... let people mold the world, cut down forests, build roads, mine underground cities..., make so hard mobs that they can't be beaten...

I hope the nextgen mmos that are released in few years have these kinds of gameplay...

And the role in rpg in my opinion means playing a role, not just a class, gender and race, but a specialized profession like a blacksmith, not a blacksmith-warrior, or a blacksmith-wizard, or a merchant, a fisher man, a king, a guard etc...

Probably all of this can't be implemented in just one game, but I leave it for the mmo developers to start digging the dirt and creating meaningful ways to be a virtual fisherman in world full of other meaningful professions...How would specializing being just a fisherman benefit the rest of the community in a virtual world in a meaningful way...?

  nariusseldon

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20226

10/18/13 4:24:46 PM#70
Originally posted by Steelhelm

Probably all of this can't be implemented in just one game, but I leave it for the mmo developers to start digging the dirt and creating meaningful ways to be a virtual fisherman in world full of other meaningful professions...How would specializing being just a fisherman benefit the rest of the community in a virtual world in a meaningful way...?

The real question is what the size of the audience who want to be a virtual fisherman. Personally i don't play games to be a fisherman so any work in that direction is wasted from my perspective.

In fact, i don't play games to be in a virtual world. I play games to be entertained, and i don't think a virtual is needed for that.

 

  Vermillion_Raventhal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/01/04
Posts: 1039

10/18/13 4:37:09 PM#71
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal

It's not about difficultly directly.  Its about being funneled down easy, meaningless and repetitive content as the only means of progression in almost all games. It cheapens quest because most are not epic and none make any real change.

That can be easily fixed with difficulty options.

In fact, hard mode raid is difficulty. Only if you have that kind of an option during quests.

Repetitive content can only be avoided if the game is designed to be finished in a shorter period of time (which i don't mind).

 

The problem is that you have nothing else to do in the games but progress because that's the whole purpose of the game.  

 

You can make the quest harder then you make the repetition harder which is why they're easier now.  People tire of the 7 quest treadmill.

 

You can cut down on quest and make them harder.  Then you have player complaining about lack of content because there's nothing but "end" game content left once you "beat" the story.  

 

You can detach quest from progression and make them optional.  This would me that developers would have to break out of quest hub worlds or switch the grind back to mob killing.  

  Vermillion_Raventhal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/01/04
Posts: 1039

10/18/13 4:41:57 PM#72
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Steelhelm

Probably all of this can't be implemented in just one game, but I leave it for the mmo developers to start digging the dirt and creating meaningful ways to be a virtual fisherman in world full of other meaningful professions...How would specializing being just a fisherman benefit the rest of the community in a virtual world in a meaningful way...?

The real question is what the size of the audience who want to be a virtual fisherman. Personally i don't play games to be a fisherman so any work in that direction is wasted from my perspective.

In fact, i don't play games to be in a virtual world. I play games to be entertained, and i don't think a virtual is needed for that.

 

I guess it would depend on how engaging fish would be.   Could you get a boat, go out find different/rare fish, avoid/fight pirates, deal with weather, get new ships/maintain ships etc.  There are things you can do to make it fun.   Some people like just sitting on the shore to just fish as a hobby.  The point to some profession is that while few may be full time others may dabble especially if it counted as combat downtime and/or enjoyable.  

  nariusseldon

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20226

10/18/13 7:01:56 PM#73
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal

You can cut down on quest and make them harder.  Then you have player complaining about lack of content because there's nothing but "end" game content left once you "beat" the story.  

Why would I care about such complaints? If the content is fun, what is the problem with finishing it, and then move on .. and only come back when something new is up?

It is not like many MMOs are sub-based anymore and need players to stick around and pay $15 every month.

In F2P, the business model is not to have people stick around for a long time. The business model is to get the whales to spend lots of impulse money.

I say .. have good story content. Let people have fun, beat it and move on.

 

  nariusseldon

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20226

10/18/13 7:05:15 PM#74
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal

 

I guess it would depend on how engaging fish would be.   Could you get a boat, go out find different/rare fish, avoid/fight pirates, deal with weather, get new ships/maintain ships etc.  There are things you can do to make it fun.   Some people like just sitting on the shore to just fish as a hobby.  The point to some profession is that while few may be full time others may dabble especially if it counted as combat downtime and/or enjoyable.  

Well, the question is how many will find fishing (or dabbling in fishing) enjoyable?

Personally if i want to fish, i go out and do it for real.

Finding rare fish - basically like a slot machine but instead of pulling the level, cast the line? No thanks.

Fighting pirates - basically not a fishing game, but a fighting pirate game. Sure, bring it on, just cut the fishing part.

Deal with weather - doing that enough in real life. I don't play games to be soak in rain.

Get new ship/maintain ship - just for fishing? No thanks.

Let me put it this way ... if all MMOs cut out fishing, i doubt i would even notice. So clearly, i am not the target audience. And the question remains, how big is the "fishing" audience?

 

  Ender4

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/18/08
Posts: 2097

10/18/13 7:08:00 PM#75

I really enjoyed fishing in WoW. Dunno if I would want it to be my full time job in an MMORPG though~.

  nariusseldon

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20226

10/18/13 7:12:51 PM#76
Originally posted by Ender4

I really enjoyed fishing in WoW. Dunno if I would want it to be my full time job in an MMORPG though~.

Really?

I found it extremely repetitive and boring. That is why i never max it, and only have done a little.

 

  Vermillion_Raventhal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/01/04
Posts: 1039

10/18/13 7:28:57 PM#77
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal

 

I guess it would depend on how engaging fish would be.   Could you get a boat, go out find different/rare fish, avoid/fight pirates, deal with weather, get new ships/maintain ships etc.  There are things you can do to make it fun.   Some people like just sitting on the shore to just fish as a hobby.  The point to some profession is that while few may be full time others may dabble especially if it counted as combat downtime and/or enjoyable.  

Well, the question is how many will find fishing (or dabbling in fishing) enjoyable?

Personally if i want to fish, i go out and do it for real.

Finding rare fish - basically like a slot machine but instead of pulling the level, cast the line? No thanks.

Fighting pirates - basically not a fishing game, but a fighting pirate game. Sure, bring it on, just cut the fishing part.

Deal with weather - doing that enough in real life. I don't play games to be soak in rain.

Get new ship/maintain ship - just for fishing? No thanks.

Let me put it this way ... if all MMOs cut out fishing, i doubt i would even notice. So clearly, i am not the target audience. And the question remains, how big is the "fishing" audience?

 

 

Shrugs some people would find that enjoyable.  I mean, I look at  the 7 quest type grind and say how that be enjoyable from game to game to game.  

  nariusseldon

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20226

10/18/13 7:35:02 PM#78
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal

 

I guess it would depend on how engaging fish would be.   Could you get a boat, go out find different/rare fish, avoid/fight pirates, deal with weather, get new ships/maintain ships etc.  There are things you can do to make it fun.   Some people like just sitting on the shore to just fish as a hobby.  The point to some profession is that while few may be full time others may dabble especially if it counted as combat downtime and/or enjoyable.  

Well, the question is how many will find fishing (or dabbling in fishing) enjoyable?

Personally if i want to fish, i go out and do it for real.

Finding rare fish - basically like a slot machine but instead of pulling the level, cast the line? No thanks.

Fighting pirates - basically not a fishing game, but a fighting pirate game. Sure, bring it on, just cut the fishing part.

Deal with weather - doing that enough in real life. I don't play games to be soak in rain.

Get new ship/maintain ship - just for fishing? No thanks.

Let me put it this way ... if all MMOs cut out fishing, i doubt i would even notice. So clearly, i am not the target audience. And the question remains, how big is the "fishing" audience?

 

 

Shrugs some people would find that enjoyable.  I mean, I look at  the 7 quest type grind and say how that be enjoyable from game to game to game.  

Quest grind is not enjoyable (to me). Good combat is. Quests are just excuses to kill stuff.

But again, sure, some people will find anything enjoyable. Even taking a 10 min boat ride repeatedly. The question is how big is that audience?

  Steelhelm

Novice Member

Joined: 7/17/13
Posts: 41

10/19/13 1:35:46 AM#79

These are pretty good ideas. Only a fisherman can build fishing gear, but he needs wood from the timberjack or the carpenter and maybe some metal from the miner or blacksmith. So he sells fish at the market to get some gold to advance in his career and build better fishing gear and boats etc. he started only with a hook and line and a hand net. but some day maybe the expert fisherman is the only one who can lure out big seamonsters for the community to take on. others involved should also have some kind of proficiency in fishing or using boat. Same could be said for the timberjack, maybe he's the only one who can draw out those towering ents in the deep woods. the blacksmith or carpenter could make weapons from the creatures bones, the meat would last for weeks or even monts, tooths make exellent daggers etc. all the spoils would be equally shared among the participants, of course the expert fisherman who lured the monster in the first place would get a bigger share.

When i think about boss loots in modern games, it just seems very unimaginative... you should get loads of stuff with lots to do/sell/craft for weeks, different level seamonsters yield different amounts of loot of course, sell meat to cook, bones to people who know how to craft those, decorate your house, make potions from the stomach liquids, make armor from scales, so much stuff...

I feel playing a role is specializing in something others won't do. Most players probably are combat oriented and people can have different characters, but i think it would be meaningful to allow extra deep specialization that brings rewards no one else can acquire. this of course takes a lot of development. such a game should definitely need a casual side. Also I would want the game studios to meditate on the word MASSIVE heh...

  Ericcompton

Novice Member

Joined: 10/03/12
Posts: 42

10/19/13 3:29:42 AM#80

I would be interested to see a MMORPG with invisible quests and no "endgame" (flame away) , a game that combines the best elements from the best games and adds new ones.

 

For example:

Invisible quests; you walk into an area and see a bandit robbing someone, you help the victim and receive a lot of EXP and a little coin, or you help the bandit and receive a lot of coin and a little EXP. You help a farmer trying to keep wild animals out of his garden, you receive EXP, coin, maybe food, or a choice from those 3, or see a wanted poster and decide to bounty hunt, the point is YOU chose whether to help or not. No yellow ! over heads, no going to point A to get quests, you just happen upon ways to earn EXP, coin, etc. Possible interactions, not required ones.

 

Possible elements:

 

GW2- scaling areas, Pre-Lich King WoW-weapons that need to be skilled up, Combat like say Tera/ AoC/ or NW or even give the player their choice of combat style as an option, Heck, you could even add having kids and aging from The Sims, and when you die from old age (no rez for that lol) your kids become your Alts, inheriting your armor and weapons (no endgame) , that would certainly add some realism which is one of the main things missing today. The RPG aspect (realism and micromanagement ) is being lost in favor of simplifying for the masses and the endgame race.

 

The point is giving you the choices on what you want to do, how you want to do it, instead of force feeding it to you.

IMO GW2 has taken a step in the right direction with questing, it's still there but doesn't feel quite as tedious, we just need someone else to keep taking steps until you don't even feel like you're doing a quest.

 

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