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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » mmo RPG have we misunderstod it ??

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104 posts found
  xeniar

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/09/06
Posts: 808

10/17/13 5:11:33 PM#41
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal
Originally posted by monochrome19

So, if you do away with quest how will people progress?

killing mobs all day? that would be terrible. Crafting? Eh...

Face it, quest are NECESSARY.

As mind numbing as they may be they are a vital component in the mmo soup.

 Quest are not necessary.   There are many ways to progress.  You can progress from usage which moves quest into an optional place where it belongs in my opinion in a MMORPG.  You progression through training, adventuring, exploring, etc.  

 

MMORPG's have cheapened the purpose of quest which is to tell a story.   The delivery of a story is lost when people are pushing through easy content and mindless task.  

This.!

  Timmeyh

Novice Member

Joined: 1/03/07
Posts: 165

10/17/13 5:18:49 PM#42
Originally posted by rafalex007

hello.

today i came here wondering, RPG : role playing game.

RPG used to be about story adventure and going through this adventure, RPG like ELDER SROLLS , or diablo or witcher or any RPG out there, they are all out living the world doing anything you can find side quests, main quests, or just wondering around.

But no in today's mmoRPG all we see is end game, everyone wants to know what about endgame, how main raid do i have or how many things is there to do, now while this is important and essential and i don't blame anyone for asking about it because it is important and you can couninue playing without it, but what about arriving to endgame!!!, how can i arrive to the point where i do have raiding or any endgame content?.

quests are the key iits the adenture we go through to arrive to endgame, its living this world we are in helping people randome one but helping the world, but whille questing is some kind of boring i think with improving it, mmos could do something great could rise again.

thanx for reading

Because multiplayer games that has PVP elements tend to have a large portion of competition in which means that everybody is trying to be better than everybody else in form of gear and skill. And this will require that you slash your way through the game faster than everybody else to learn all the tricks of the game before everybody else.

 

The non-multiplayer RPG's you mentioned are as you said, sinleplayer games which then means that there aint no competition.

Multiplayer games has alwayes been about being better than all the other players to either make it easier for you to be the best player or to just grow your e-pen.

This is one of the reasons I played alot more Cyberpunk 2020 and WoD in my younger days instead of DnD. Cyberpunk 2020 doesnt have levels. All characters has the same amount of health. All you could do was getting better in using your equipment and aquire better gear. But the better gear you got, the more suspect the cops became and you would be slowed down by questions all the time. 

In WoD, you felt like you where that insignificant bag of blood only to be a puppet for your sire, and still feel like a superhero compared humans that surrounds you. But this game (as Cyberpunk) require you to think about what you are doing and why you are doing it. And yes you became a little stronger by diablerizing older vampires (lower generations) but if your elders saw you becoming ruthless and dangerous, you would be put down for the sake of the masquerade. 

See? They all balanced you out no matter what you did. 

Almost all of the mmos today follow the old Everquest/DnD recipe in some way or another since the sale's numbers of those games showed that most people love the "power ranking" by using levels and made everybody think of themselvs as the coolest just by being top level with best gear, not by being a really smart strategist, tactician or conversationalist.

 

The reason people rush through quests without reading them is because; A: They are badly written or just plain boring or B: They are rushing to the endgame before they'r friends.

 

Sorry for the wall of text, and yet snub explenations and bad english.

I really hope CCP has some cool plans for World of Darkness regarding this issue though.

  Bladestrom

Elite Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 3274

10/17/13 8:14:00 PM#43
Rpg role playing requires imagination and iPods today On average don't read books for pleasure, don't know how to use their imagination and are used to playing games that feed the player with constant adrenalin bursts. This is the real issue today IMO,

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (1000 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (480 Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(900 elementalist), Wildstar

Now playing GW2, AOW 3

  Bladestrom

Elite Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 3274

10/17/13 8:17:51 PM#44
Also agree 100% with xeniar. Quests are a way of telling a story. Stories engag the imaginations (if you are capable). Quest as xp vehicles is a very drab and boring experience indeed.

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (1000 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (480 Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(900 elementalist), Wildstar

Now playing GW2, AOW 3

  sparepotroast

Novice Member

Joined: 10/17/13
Posts: 9

10/17/13 11:59:14 PM#45

The competition between players seems to be where MMO's are getting focused on. Thus having less and less stuff about the story. But not completelty gone but it's still greatly affected. Most players focus on getting stronger, to become better than other players thus not paying attention to the game's story at all. But remove the story part and players (might be the same ones that don't pay attention to it) will rage about that game not having a story. It's there but almost no one pays attention to it, remove it and almost all rage about it being gone.

Yes, the purpose of quests is to deliver the story. It restricts you from progressing further so that the difficulty in which the quest is set will still prove to be somewhat a challenge to the player. Imagine a low level quest that you're not supposed to do to progress and you eventually decide to take it...then complain about it being too easy...that's because that certain quest is to be taken early. And thus the quest's purpose to restrict and be a factor to the player's progress. The problem why other players don't want quests to become the main part of the game is because they'd want to get stronger immediately to compete with other players. They just need all the things about the combat and learn it, those things have little to nothing to say about the story....

  tom_gore

Novice Member

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 1803

10/18/13 1:24:48 AM#46
Originally posted by Ender4

The key is letting us do our own thing, not coming up with some goofy story based quests. Create a world for us to experience, not a bunch of quests that we do in the same way as everyone else.

Also I find it really funny that you called Diablo an example of a RPG. The diablo series is just awful when it comes to story.

This.

Pre-canned story does not a roleplaying game make.

Incidentally, the best roleplaying communities have always formed into sandbox games with player factions.

  Markusrind

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/22/13
Posts: 324

10/18/13 4:28:46 AM#47
Originally posted by monochrome19

So, if you do away with quest how will people progress?

killing mobs all day? that would be terrible. Crafting? Eh...

Face it, quest are NECESSARY.

As mind numbing as they may be they are a vital component in the mmo soup.

100% disagree.

Quests are not neccessary...but having lots of things to do are.

As someone early on mentioned, MMORPG's would be perfect places for RPG if they made a world first and a game second. Stop scripting quests, limiting choices, making our choices for us, and basically doing the things that games like WOW have done for many years (i.e. dumb everything down to the point where you don't need to think or pay attention).

Give us a world populated with many animals, plants, races, mysteries, landscapes...give us many tools to interact with all these things in the world....allow us to use these tools to shape the world around us...the RPG comes naturally out of that.

  Vermillion_Raventhal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/01/04
Posts: 1014

10/18/13 4:42:57 AM#48
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal

MMORPG's have cheapened the purpose of quest which is to tell a story.   The delivery of a story is lost when people are pushing through easy content and mindless task.  

The story has nothing to do with if the content is easy or not. Bioshock still has a story if you play it at the easiest difficulty or the hardest.

 

 

It's not about difficultly directly.  Its about being funneled down easy, meaningless and repetitive content as the only means of progression in almost all games. It cheapens quest because most are not epic and none make any real change.

 

 

Your heroes quest become remedial task of collecting wolf teeth for farmers because there's no way to fill high progression games with enough meaningful quest.  Then you have easy mode instances and quest leave you with meaningless progression because you're playing the same difficulty level 1 to 50 with just more powers to get to the real game which is more repetition.   

 

 

In a game where progression isn't the whole purpose and quest the only means to meet that purpose, you can play how you like.  Quest can be fewer with greater purpose.  

  greenreen

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/19/12
Posts: 1440

10/18/13 8:49:30 AM#49

See, the problem I notice about games is that they want to hold your hand too much.

Instead of hints and puzzles where you might use your brain some and be challenged we get indicators and pathways drawn out. IMO there is too much of that kind of thing.

With my own game I'm trying something different. There are only 2 ways quests exist, the standard story based quest is offered by players. These have to be based on a simple system, do something or bring something and accept the reward for completion, it works with a programming language without creating massive switch/case statements and not a lot of if/elseif statements. The point of these quests are to have other players perform actions for you for the rewards you can offer. Maybe you want someone to farm potions for you because you don't want to deal with the auction house, maybe as a guild leader you want to set an initiation story up without having to take out time to repeat it. I have a use for NPCs and environmental graphics as quest givers in the form of chatter is the best way to describe it. Things that you find out about in the world can become a quest and what you read etched on environmental graphics become pieces of the puzzle too. Right now I'm storing all the snippets of information on the server that you know but I have the idea to bring it out into a book of knowledge that you can reference. Hints can be added into the system by comparing what you know and running that through a system that will offer information on how to put at least two of the items together BUT I'm fighting myself because I wonder if I'm just creating the hand-holding "do this" then "do that" that I already don't like in other games. I think I may be doing it all backwards because I don't have an overall story for the game other than something calamitous happened so I'm building the story through the traits of the NPC survivors and what they can tell you about what they have discovered.  Works for me though, I'm no strong storyteller and unless I can pay someone, it's all on me to make this puppy.

Blah, blah, the point is, I don't think that hand holding should be completely gone because pictionary is more entertaining than charades. Having the ability to nudge someone in a direction rather than have them stuck because you didn't tell them what to do ... or worse... they use a search engine to discover everything if it's set in stone... that sort of tells you that people DO want the easy route but I think deep down, they want to solve things themselves instead of asking for help, they just don't know they want it if all they have seen is click next next, run there, kill that, done. While I don't have it in my game yet I think that quests NEED to tick some sort of alignment system on your character. If doing a quest had a worthwhile effect on the character that you carried around and had to be accountable for then maybe you would choose when you want to help or harm based on the character you are building. Wouldn't that be a reason to consider it roleplay, mapping out where the character goes and what it becomes according to what you chose to do with it. Without literally typing a story for its character, you would still be creating it. Technically we roleplay the second we chose one class or look from the others during character creation but no one really considers it that because after that there isn't much you can change once cookie cutter builds hit end game based on the most x or y they can output. If your output was partly based on how your character "lived its life" then you have another avenue to play with for the end game.

 

 

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3080

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

10/18/13 10:17:03 AM#50


Originally posted by maplestone

Originally posted by AlBQuirky
Kill monsters for no reason other than, "Because I can!"?

What about fighting monsters because there are consequences to fighting vs not fighting.  The alternative to quests is not "the same game without quests", but a world where events are unfolding all around you and you are choosing how to alter the course of history.

I see your point, but what is it that gives you the consequences between fight/do not fight?

Originally posted by maplestone
That said, if I was going to make my perfect sandbox world, I'd probably still keep the structure of "kill 10 rats", it's just that the quest would not be a static thing waiting for each passing character next to a basement full of rats, it would be a hint that spawns in the right conditions, telling players that there is an opportuntiy to affect the world in that place and time.  Instead of story arcs, you have long chains of events: you killed the giant rats, but where's the nest?  what natural or supernatural event triggered the infestation in the first place?  If the evils of the world actually unfold logically with footprints and clues to follow, then story arcs should emerge spontaneously out of tracing down the root causes of problems.

I like your quest tweak idea :)

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3080

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

10/18/13 10:36:09 AM#51


Originally posted by Arclan

Originally posted by AlBQuirky

Originally posted by bcbully

Originally posted by monochrome19
so... what can be done to "improve" quest?

Stop making them the main focus of progression, or get rid of them completely.

I disagree. Quests are a main source of how I interact with the game world. (Others may feel the same way.) Without them, what do you do? Kill monsters for no reason other than, "Because I can!"? Quests give meaning to my actions in the game world.

That being said, quests could certainly be improved from their current "chores" state to something more interesting.



Quests are your primary source of entertainment within an MMO? Which MMORPG do you most identify with? One with quest hubs? EQ is the MMO I most identify with, and its quests were difficult with scant rewards and nil xp. Done only if I had no hunting, exploring, chatting, or crafting to do. :)

Quests are, yes. My main interaction is with NPCs, learning about the world I am in. Players can not tell me about the lore of a world.

I liked EQ. It had some quests, but not an overabundance, quite the contrary to its name :) Sure, I got the watch reports in Qeynos, looked for signs of the little girl in the sewers, and even collected taxes :) These eased me into the world and helped me learn about the area. When I went out into the newbie area and started killing the rats, skeletons, snakes, and Gnoll Pups, I had 2 goals in mind. Level up and get money. Later on, I added a third goal: collecting crafting materials. This was not that fun for me.

Later on, when I started grouping, I had more fun with the people I was with, but still had very few reasons to go into Blackburrow but to level up and grab loot.

I would say my favorite game was pre-Cata WoW. The quests nicely took me from place to place and gave me lots of background on the area I was in. I felt part of the world because of the quests. I was interacting with those living in the world.

You have to understand that for me, combat is not why I play games. I could never follow the "Leveling Guides" that littered the net with EQ. Those were ultra boring to me. I play to experience the world and quests help me do that.

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  Ender4

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/18/08
Posts: 2056

10/18/13 10:49:10 AM#52

Quests should be nothing more than something that guides you to the content, they should not be the content itself. That is where I think the genre goes wrong. Unless it is a long and involved quest it should not give you much of a reward either. Rift is a good example of how bad questing is done. Go from hub to hub and basically get gear thrown at you constantly while doing it. The quests become the content at that point.

An item worth doing a quest specifically to get should have a long drawn out quest. The missing diplomat in WoW was an example of a good quest. It took you all over the place, had a reward that you actually wanted and had some story to it as well.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19506

10/18/13 10:49:45 AM#53
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal

It's not about difficultly directly.  Its about being funneled down easy, meaningless and repetitive content as the only means of progression in almost all games. It cheapens quest because most are not epic and none make any real change.

That can be easily fixed with difficulty options.

In fact, hard mode raid is difficulty. Only if you have that kind of an option during quests.

Repetitive content can only be avoided if the game is designed to be finished in a shorter period of time (which i don't mind).

 

  Bladestrom

Elite Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 3274

10/18/13 10:53:52 AM#54
^^ this is where mmorgs have went wrong over the years, quests are important as they convey lore and story and engage you with the environment. running through quests as quickly as possible to get to end game to um do daily quest with generic quests instead- the path of the insane. It's like skimming a book or film to get to the last chapter that you repeat over and over without really caring about the story in the first place!

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (1000 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (480 Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(900 elementalist), Wildstar

Now playing GW2, AOW 3

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3080

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

10/18/13 10:54:34 AM#55


Originally posted by Ender4
Quests should be nothing more than something that guides you to the content, they should not be the content itself. That is where I think the genre goes wrong. Unless it is a long and involved quest it should not give you much of a reward either. Rift is a good example of how bad questing is done. Go from hub to hub and basically get gear thrown at you constantly while doing it. The quests become the content at that point.

An item worth doing a quest specifically to get should have a long drawn out quest. The missing diplomat in WoW was an example of a good quest. It took you all over the place, had a reward that you actually wanted and had some story to it as well.



While I like questing, I agree with you. Questing should be ONE activity in MMORPGs, not THE activity :)

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12120

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

10/18/13 11:05:54 AM#56
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 


Originally posted by Ender4
Quests should be nothing more than something that guides you to the content, they should not be the content itself. That is where I think the genre goes wrong. Unless it is a long and involved quest it should not give you much of a reward either. Rift is a good example of how bad questing is done. Go from hub to hub and basically get gear thrown at you constantly while doing it. The quests become the content at that point.

 

An item worth doing a quest specifically to get should have a long drawn out quest. The missing diplomat in WoW was an example of a good quest. It took you all over the place, had a reward that you actually wanted and had some story to it as well.



While I like questing, I agree with you. Questing should be ONE activity in MMORPGs, not THE activity :)

 

Agreed. It seems like WOW put the writing on the wall and then LOTRO carved it in stone for the genre.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fovoroth

  ElRenmazuo

Elite Member

Joined: 10/28/06
Posts: 4105

10/18/13 11:13:54 AM#57

Instead of having a bazillion quests with chore like meaning less activities, they should have fewer quests with very long story arcs for each quest and each of these arcs are just parts of the main story arc.  Basically a quest should actually be a "Quest" because killing 10 whatever for some random npc isnt a "Quest", its a paid chore like mowing the lawn for your neighbor for some extra cash.  Instead small things like that should be like bounties/dailies you pick up from the town bounty boards much like guild leves and guildhests in FF14 just to do something in a short term to gain a little experience/money/fame.  But the actual quests should be deep and meaningful adventures that takes you to places with story and characters you become fond of that makes you drive forward from wanting to know what happens next.

It should be similar to how television shows sets up their story arc where I see each episode as a quest with their own short story thats part of a larger story.  Like imagine each quest like an episode of Doctor Who.

Or I could use other games as example which would be Telltales Walking Dead, each quest should have depth like an episode in that game.

  TheRealDarkeus

Novice Member

Joined: 6/26/13
Posts: 277

“I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes.

10/18/13 11:30:13 AM#58
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by monochrome19
of course everyone wants to forge their own story and have it be unique. but that still doesnt answer the question of how you remove quest and still allow for meaningful progression.

You don't speak for me.

I want to consume professionally produced story content.

Same here.  And this is actually what I believe to be the weakness of the MMORPG in my opinion anyway.  Even a fantastic MMO like The Secret World deal with this issue.

 

See, a C-RPG ends.  No matter how much you play around in Skyrim or Fallout: New Vegas, eventually you get to the end of the story.  The credits roll, you feel cool for beating the game and then you may start a New Game+ or something else.  It is easy to consume the story, progress your character and have a feeling of accomplishment at the end as you stand triumphant (Or not) in your ending.

 

MMORPG games really don't end.  The devs are required to tack on more and more story and diversions to keep people playing that look for more story than social bonding.  It is cool to log in and hang out with friends and do things in quest-based games.  However, it will always lead to "endgame" and that endgame usually has no story, no purpose.  You just grind for gear and repeat content until you quit or the devs give you something new.

Sometimes I myself wonder if quest are necessary in MMO games.  Then I realize that Endgame is what really needs to be changed.  The raids and grinding, meh.  There has to be a new incentive.  So maybe that does involve improving quest and the way they are done.  As for answers, I don't have any at the moment.

  Ozivois

Novice Member

Joined: 4/17/10
Posts: 600

10/18/13 11:43:36 AM#59

I love it when folks get philosophical here.

 

Defining RPG is not done by breaking down what the words mean. MMORPG's use of the role playing game term is in direct connection to D&D role playing games; it's as simple as that.

As such, What a D&D game boiled down to was the simple mechanics of moving along a map while the DM performed hundreds of dice rolls that determined what monsters appeared, how much damage each character did, how much damage each character took, etc.

Therefore, an end-game raid is very much a virtual RPG. And just like the old D&D games, the "lore and role-play" aspect of the game can be either taken seriously or dismissed as a trivial feature of the game, as so many players seem to do.

  TheRealDarkeus

Novice Member

Joined: 6/26/13
Posts: 277

“I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes.

10/18/13 11:54:18 AM#60
Originally posted by Ozivois

I love it when folks get philosophical here.

 

Defining RPG is not done by breaking down what the words mean. MMORPG's use of the role playing game term is in direct connection to D&D role playing games; it's as simple as that.

As such, What a D&D game boiled down to was the simple mechanics of moving along a map while the DM performed hundreds of dice rolls that determined what monsters appeared, how much damage each character did, how much damage each character took, etc.

Therefore, an end-game raid is very much a virtual RPG. And just like the old D&D games, the "lore and role-play" aspect of the game can be either taken seriously or dismissed as a trivial feature of the game, as so many players seem to do.

  That sounds nothing like my AD&D games back in the day.  Not even close.  Hundreds of dice rolls?  A good GM doesn't do that.  Random Encounter Tables, well yeah they are good for long trips the Players make or for a City.  Not too good for much else.

 

D&D does not boil down to the mechanics.  Wargaming did and I think you arre getting some Wargaming into my Tabletop RPG....  Saying that, yes I know Tabletop came from Wargaming.  A lot has changed since then. 

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