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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » mmo RPG have we misunderstod it ??

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104 posts found
  iixviiiix

Elite Member

Joined: 3/04/13
Posts: 304

10/17/13 11:12:28 AM#21

How about if you do quest to NPC X , NPC Y will stop giving quest  to you ?

Or if you finish a big evil quest , City A will ban you and kill in sign when they see you around ?

How about if someone clean those quest before you then you can't finish that quest anymore and have to abandon it ?

Then quest ask you to travel from A to B without teleport , limit in 2 days and it cost you same of time to get from A to B while travel by legs or mounts , you have to pass through a dark valley where monster have stealth ability or a dungeon where big minotaur wander around.

And other character get quest to stop and make you quest fail to success they quest.

 

A true RPG are big map of what you chose and abandon to raise your character.

Current quests line like a boring book where you skip pages to see what happen in the end.

 

Even though , making quests line are easier and lest cost than make a big map of what character may possible to become.

Through time they cut off player's chose and force someone else story to player , Instead give player more chose to build up character.

 

How many ending can you get in a MMORPG ?

A honor knight or a evil theft ?,

kingdom's ruler or a outlaw king ?

being a knight mage or pure craftman ?

Not them , there are only ending where you take down last boss and everyone walk in peace waiting for next big expansion patch.

 

 

 

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17994

10/17/13 11:27:43 AM#22
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by monochrome19
of course everyone wants to forge their own story and have it be unique. but that still doesnt answer the question of how you remove quest and still allow for meaningful progression.

You don't speak for me.

I want to consume professionally produced story content.

LOL, yeah, and you enjoy reading as a hobby too.    (OK, so do I)

But when I play MMORPG's, I like making the story and I wish more titles found better ways to accomplish this.

Yeah, we're opposites.

Quests can make a nice supplement to progression, but before WOW there was progression, in spite of WOW there's games that find a way to accomplish progression with out it.

Making "better" quests sounds like a worthy goal, and I think titles such as SWTOR did a pretty good job with it, if you're into that sort of thing. 

But quests can only be so good...and we might have hit the peak in that regard.

Yes, i love reading. I am reading the Judgment of Paris now (i also enjoy wine as a hobby) and it is a great book.

I don't think MMORPGs have hit the peak in terms of quests and story telling. Think bioshock or Dishonored type story telling. It is certainly doable in instances. STO has a bit of that, but not as polished as SP games.

THAT would be the peak.

 

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 2745

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

10/17/13 11:35:49 AM#23


Originally posted by bcbully

Originally posted by monochrome19
so... what can be done to "improve" quest?

Stop making them the main focus of progression, or get rid of them completely.

I disagree. Quests are a main source of how I interact with the game world. (Others may feel the same way.) Without them, what do you do? Kill monsters for no reason other than, "Because I can!"? Quests give meaning to my actions in the game world.

That being said, quests could certainly be improved from their current "chores" state to something more interesting.

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11363

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

10/17/13 1:34:35 PM#24
Originally posted by monochrome19
of course everyone wants to forge their own story and have it be unique. but that still doesnt answer the question of how you remove quest and still allow for meaningful progression.

I listed several MMOs for you. 

  maplestone

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

10/17/13 1:46:33 PM#25
Originally posted by AlBQuirky
Kill monsters for no reason other than, "Because I can!"?

What about fighting monsters because there are consequences to fighting vs not fighting.  The alternative to quests is not "the same game without quests", but a world where events are unfolding all around you and you are choosing how to alter the course of history.

That said, if I was going to make my perfect sandbox world, I'd probably still keep the structure of "kill 10 rats", it's just that the quest would not be a static thing waiting for each passing character next to a basement full of rats, it would be a hint that spawns in the right conditions, telling players that there is an opportuntiy to affect the world in that place and time.  Instead of story arcs, you have long chains of events: you killed the giant rats, but where's the nest?  what natural or supernatural event triggered the infestation in the first place?  If the evils of the world actually unfold logically with footprints and clues to follow, then story arcs should emerge spontaneously out of tracing down the root causes of problems.

 

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

10/17/13 1:46:52 PM#26
Originally posted by rafalex007

mmo RPG have we misunderstod it ??

Depends on a couple of things: Who "we" is referring to, and what the understanding-that's-wrong is supposed to be.

Could be that your understanding of what RPG is all about is different from Bill's understanding of it, sure.

And you could both be right! With completely different answers!

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Deivos

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/14/04
Posts: 1700

Iarð skal rifna, ok upphiminn.

10/17/13 2:13:13 PM#27
Originally posted by monochrome19

So, if you do away with quest how will people progress?

killing mobs all day? that would be terrible. Crafting? Eh...

Face it, quest are NECESSARY.

As mind numbing as they may be they are a vital component in the mmo soup.

This honestly summarizes the problem with MMOs. It's a mindset defined by a misnomer built on two notions.

 

The function of character progress, and the subsequent function of quests.

 

First of all, character progress is part of what the problem is. Too much focus on the meta game element of statistics and where one's character ranks in power kills focus on any other kind of game elements. Being able to feel like you've become more powerful for your efforts is certainly important, you want to keep moving forward, but it needs to be done in a way where the progress you make is defined less on a numeric and meta game level and more on a visual and inherent level.

 

Progress can also come from many elements past questing. Opening players to the ability to progress and discover new skills and techniques from enemies they are fighting, sparring with unique NPCs, creating their own set of techniques using animation sets and learned 'blocks' of effects that can be recombined into unique skills, being granted a unique skill set from a special item you found or created, etc.

 

The other thing is quests and narrative can be a very different form than what they exist as now in computer games. It's as I've mentioned in previous threads, a collaborative narrative experience and a reactive narrative are two elements that would go a long way into creating a much more novel experience that caters to a much greater longevity to the life of the world.

 

Even scratching the idea of 'collaboration', you have the notion of a 'reactive' world.

 

What reactive means in this context, is that rather than being lead as a player through a predefined narrative, you are instead presented with prompts of events with an overarching narrative tying them together. As you complete different events, the narrative is built out as a result, letting your actions defining the progress of the narrative instead of you following point A to B and onward.

 

Witcher 3 will apparently have a bit of this, with it's narrative broken up and delineated so that you can traverse through the world and story in a relatively free form fashion. This is decent, but still not what's really meant. IT's a useful aid in defining the direction though.

 

The differentiating factor is results. For every action there can't be a linear consequence. This was exactly Mass Effect's failing. For as many choices as a person makes, when their actions ultimately result in the same events being tread through, their efforts suddenly feel like it was for naught. Why save or kill the Rachni Queen if all it changes is a couple hundred points on a meter? Why destroy or save the Collector Base if Cerberus is reaper-ized regardless of your decision? Many of the decisions you made were ultimately just numbers on a scale, and almost entirely inconsequential to the ultimate progression of the story.

 

What a character decides to do to absolve an event needs to do more than be a number statistic. It needs to have impact. The choice made needs to at least force a change in state that cements their action as having a consequence.

 

A story need not be completely free form, but you have to realize the potential of very different outcomes. Instead of picking whether you were the snarky hero or the chivalric hero, you need to choose whether or not you want to be the hero or the villain.

 

The first Kotor came closer to this, and serves as a decent example as a consequence. While you still had to progress through the same world and set pieces with the same missions, you had the choice of doing so in more strongly contrasting ways. You could be good, you could work to protect your friends and crew and save the galaxy, or you could force a wookie to kill his best and perhaps only friend as you twist your companions minds to the dark side. It's again not entirely what's meant, as the narrative is relatively finite to the story at hand, but it serves as an example accompanying Witcher 3. The choices you made mattered, because the impact they had on the world was directly evident.

 

Both these elements can change dramatically to move the focus away from a metagame of how big your character's numbers are, and into a mode where adventure is the goal.

As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero. - Vaarsuvius

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17994

10/17/13 2:28:45 PM#28
Originally posted by Deivos

The differentiating factor is results. For every action there can't be a linear consequence. This was exactly Mass Effect's failing. For as many choices as a person makes, when their actions ultimately result in the same events being tread through, their efforts suddenly feel like it was for naught. Why save or kill the Rachni Queen if all it changes is a couple hundred points on a meter? Why destroy or save the Collector Base if Cerberus is reaper-ized regardless of your decision? Many of the decisions you made were ultimately just numbers on a scale, and almost entirely inconsequential to the ultimate progression of the story.

Because you don't know what is going to happen next, and you want to see it?

Linear story works in Sp games, and can work in MMO instances, as long as you don't repeat them.

  knightaudit

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/06/05
Posts: 233

Those are my thoughts, not yours

10/17/13 2:33:56 PM#29

RPG .. in the past = Role Playing game, tofay RPG = Rocket Propelled Granade (to blow through things)

the whole idea that you make a person who has a role in the world seems to be lost on developers.

Questing should still be in games ... but the problem is that game designers see them as an all or nothing solution. either it is for you to gain the Xp needed to level or it does not ... when in fact you culd use quests as only a way to gain money and try skills.

If MMO's went the route of skill based systems rather than leveling it could solve a number of issues. Say you have a game where you want skills as the focus ... so you can pick any 5 off the list that can be max (for ease lets say that the skill cap is 100) - so any 5 skills can be 100, all other skills would cap at 90 to a maximum of 15 skills all the rest would only cap at 75.

These skills could be crafting, gathering, weapon, armor or other skills .. now before you go jumping on my back about the lack of thought on this .. I am just pulling this off the top of my head and this is in no way thought out .

Now if you think about real life, you know there are a number of things you know, things you are good at and things you excel at. Same idea... I know how to fish .. but I am no master fisherman, When you think about a system like this your character creation becomes HUGE. you can have a warror, who is great in armor, weapons, shields and yet could not boil water to save his life. This would also help in the balance of the game ... Skilled Cooks would be needed, skilled medics and skilled craftsmen would have abilities needed for all.

The thing lacking in games right now is the ROLE part of it .. in games like WOW, SWTOR, FF14 you are pigeon holed into it... You do not have choices to make the character you want to be. Just you make what you fit within the parameters of the game.

 

  Deivos

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/14/04
Posts: 1700

Iarð skal rifna, ok upphiminn.

10/17/13 2:39:02 PM#30
Originally posted by nariusseldon

Because you don't know what is going to happen next, and you want to see it?

Linear story works in Sp games, and can work in MMO instances, as long as you don't repeat them.

Because no one reads the same book twice.

 

That's flimsy logic at best. Especially when you're talking about an interactive narrative.

 

Fact stands, if you are given a choice in narrative, then that choice should bear some consequence. Otherwise there is no meaning to being given choice.

As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero. - Vaarsuvius

  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1174

Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute.

10/17/13 2:39:28 PM#31


Originally posted by AlBQuirky

Originally posted by bcbully

Originally posted by monochrome19
so... what can be done to "improve" quest?

Stop making them the main focus of progression, or get rid of them completely.

I disagree. Quests are a main source of how I interact with the game world. (Others may feel the same way.) Without them, what do you do? Kill monsters for no reason other than, "Because I can!"? Quests give meaning to my actions in the game world.

That being said, quests could certainly be improved from their current "chores" state to something more interesting.


Quests are your primary source of entertainment within an MMO? Which MMORPG do you most identify with? One with quest hubs? EQ is the MMO I most identify with, and its quests were difficult with scant rewards and nil xp. Done only if I had no hunting, exploring, chatting, or crafting to do. :)

I'm not going to a party full of clowns (F2P), then offer to buy them all drinks. -GregorMcgregor

Playing: XCom, Rome Total War, Master of Orion II, Majesty 2, and HOMM I.
Played: Everquest, Planetside, Vanguard, Pirates of the Burning Sea, EVE, UO.

  Sephastus

Elite Member

Joined: 6/15/09
Posts: 405

10/17/13 2:40:22 PM#32

My simplistic view: Eliminate all gear progression.

 

Give stat boosts based on how much of the story you complete, and what type of choices you make (Good, Vs Bad, which faction, Justice Vs Chaos ect.), and how much of the side story(s) you were able to uncover. Some stories will have optional fights if your answers merited it.

 

This would go a long way in putting Role-Play back into this MMO Genre.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11363

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

10/17/13 2:43:15 PM#33
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by rafalex007

mmo RPG have we misunderstod it ??

Depends on a couple of things: Who "we" is referring to, and what the understanding-that's-wrong is supposed to be.

Could be that your understanding of what RPG is all about is different from Bill's understanding of it, sure.

And you could both be right! With completely different answers!

I think Ice has a great point here. We all came from different first experiences with RPGs and as such our expectation of what an RPG should be are different. Even within similar backgrounds there are varied expectations. 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17994

10/17/13 2:44:40 PM#34
Originally posted by Sephastus

My simplistic view: Eliminate all gear progression.

 

Give stat boosts based on how much of the story you complete, and what type of choices you make (Good, Vs Bad, which faction, Justice Vs Chaos ect.), and how much of the side story(s) you were able to uncover. Some stories will have optional fights if your answers merited it.

 

This would go a long way in putting Role-Play back into this MMO Genre.

Or go the other way. Forget role-playing.

Just have a good hack-n-slash loot game.

  Arglebargle

Elite Member

Joined: 6/13/07
Posts: 968

10/17/13 3:04:15 PM#35
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Deivos

The differentiating factor is results. For every action there can't be a linear consequence. This was exactly Mass Effect's failing. For as many choices as a person makes, when their actions ultimately result in the same events being tread through, their efforts suddenly feel like it was for naught. Why save or kill the Rachni Queen if all it changes is a couple hundred points on a meter? Why destroy or save the Collector Base if Cerberus is reaper-ized regardless of your decision? Many of the decisions you made were ultimately just numbers on a scale, and almost entirely inconsequential to the ultimate progression of the story.

Because you don't know what is going to happen next, and you want to see it?

Linear story works in Sp games, and can work in MMO instances, as long as you don't repeat them.

When sold under a 'Your decisions matter!" rubric, this sort of inevitable pathway can lead to problems.  Like loss of sales on your next game.

If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17994

10/17/13 3:29:22 PM#36
Originally posted by Arglebargle
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Deivos

The differentiating factor is results. For every action there can't be a linear consequence. This was exactly Mass Effect's failing. For as many choices as a person makes, when their actions ultimately result in the same events being tread through, their efforts suddenly feel like it was for naught. Why save or kill the Rachni Queen if all it changes is a couple hundred points on a meter? Why destroy or save the Collector Base if Cerberus is reaper-ized regardless of your decision? Many of the decisions you made were ultimately just numbers on a scale, and almost entirely inconsequential to the ultimate progression of the story.

Because you don't know what is going to happen next, and you want to see it?

Linear story works in Sp games, and can work in MMO instances, as long as you don't repeat them.

When sold under a 'Your decisions matter!" rubric, this sort of inevitable pathway can lead to problems.  Like loss of sales on your next game.

Well, it is easy to sell "your decision matter" if you have few alternative ending. In fact, that is not that big of a selling point anyway.

I doubt many plays Dishonor for the branching story line. Bioshock don't even pretends to do that. It is about how you dress up the story, and have good gameplay surround it.

 

  Deivos

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/14/04
Posts: 1700

Iarð skal rifna, ok upphiminn.

10/17/13 4:14:59 PM#37

You really have to clarify that what you say is opinion and not fact Nariu. Mass Effect in particular was a game that had a major selling point off the bat that Bioware outlined it'd be a space opera trilogy where the decisions you made would carry on between titles and impact the outcome of the game. 

 

It was a pivotal ad-piece to the whole idea, that you'd build a continuity and a story that was influenced by your decisions.

 

Dishonored sits in an adjacent realm where player agency is less about narrative and more about the free form choice of how one can play given the powers they pick. Their freedom of choice is less to do with branching story, and more to do with the creativity of play.

 

Bioshock doesn't even sit in the same context. They are delivering a narrative that you're following along, it's interactive only in so far as you play the action along with it, and the point of this commentary was to point out that multiplayer environments can deliver a different form of narrative that's indefinite in length or scope based on player agency and player collaboration both being used to create a stronger branching story that rests it's value in how the impact comes from your actions,and how that difference can affect the longevity and manner a multiplayer game or MMO may be approached.

As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero. - Vaarsuvius

  Vermillion_Raventhal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/01/04
Posts: 852

10/17/13 4:34:25 PM#38
Originally posted by monochrome19

So, if you do away with quest how will people progress?

killing mobs all day? that would be terrible. Crafting? Eh...

Face it, quest are NECESSARY.

As mind numbing as they may be they are a vital component in the mmo soup.

 Quest are not necessary.   There are many ways to progress.  You can progress from usage which moves quest into an optional place where it belongs in my opinion in a MMORPG.  You progression through training, adventuring, exploring, etc.  

 

MMORPG's have cheapened the purpose of quest which is to tell a story.   The delivery of a story is lost when people are pushing through easy content and mindless task.  

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 17994

10/17/13 5:04:00 PM#39
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal

MMORPG's have cheapened the purpose of quest which is to tell a story.   The delivery of a story is lost when people are pushing through easy content and mindless task.  

The story has nothing to do with if the content is easy or not. Bioshock still has a story if you play it at the easiest difficulty or the hardest.

 

  xeniar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/09/06
Posts: 774

10/17/13 5:08:46 PM#40
Originally posted by monochrome19

So, if you do away with quest how will people progress?

killing mobs all day? that would be terrible. Crafting? Eh...

Face it, quest are NECESSARY.

As mind numbing as they may be they are a vital component in the mmo soup.

i disagree, never in the past has it been terible. because you where doing it with a purpose and you where socializing at the same time.

heck right now im playing RF online again.  grinding mobs leveling myself slowly and making sure i get my skills right. and loving it :)

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