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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » Action/Twitch, 8-button Combat

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79 posts found
  Sephastus

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/15/09
Posts: 408

10/22/13 11:25:36 AM#41

Go play Japans most popular game: Monster Hunter.

 

4 buttons, of these for attacking, and all 4 tied to your weapon. Fun... AS... Heck!

 

Number of skills is independent of the fun or longevity of the game, which is what I am interested in.

  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3259

10/24/13 11:16:21 AM#42
     I personally hate the action twitch combat..  For me a true MMO should be about character development and world interaction.. I enjoyed working with factions and crafting.. I especially enjoyed and miss playing a druid in wolf form, running about tracking and killing my target.. Kiting is a missing role, as so is true CC and pulling..  Today's MMO are nothing more then console driven "Mortal Kombat" online.. There is virtually no character depth in today's MMO genre..
  Creslin321

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 5424

10/24/13 2:27:51 PM#43
Originally posted by Rydeson
     I personally hate the action twitch combat..  For me a true MMO should be about character development and world interaction.. I enjoyed working with factions and crafting.. I especially enjoyed and miss playing a druid in wolf form, running about tracking and killing my target.. Kiting is a missing role, as so is true CC and pulling..  Today's MMO are nothing more then console driven "Mortal Kombat" online.. There is virtually no character depth in today's MMO genre..

But what does action-twitch combat have to do with character development and world interaction?  I could name plenty of games WITHOUT action-twitch combat that had very little world interaction, EQ1 being a prime example.  I loved EQ1...but compared to its contemporary game UO, its world interaction was miniscule.

Anyway, I agree with you that character customization/development and world interaction are VERY important to an MMORPG, but I don't think that action-twitch combat need detract from that at all.  I mean, look at a game like Skyrim...its combat is fairly "actioney" and yet it has plenty of character development and world interaction.

In fact, I feel like action-twitch combat makes me feel more connected to the world, since combat feels more visceral and less like I'm just ordering my character around.  This is actually why I could never get into Eve...the combat there felt so disconnected to me that I just couldn't get into it.

Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?

  Xthos

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/18/10
Posts: 2635

10/24/13 3:10:50 PM#44
Originally posted by Sephastus

Go play Japans most popular game: Monster Hunter.

 

4 buttons, of these for attacking, and all 4 tied to your weapon. Fun... AS... Heck!

 

Number of skills is independent of the fun or longevity of the game, which is what I am interested in.

 I would be more excited if it were just 8 skills that you made your skill deck from, verse 4 from a weapon, but I can see how the 4/4 approach is probably a 1000 times easier to balance also...I will wait and see, before I kill it.  MY biggest thing is that the weapon skills better have spells and such for casters, because if it is all close combat stuff, count me out probably, because that would mean from the demonstration the most attack spells I could have is 2, due to the way they said the 4 abilities would work, and the most offensive class would have 2 of the 4 abilities of the class be offensive (others would be movement stuff and misc things).  I could not see playing a caster with 2 spells to damage things.

 

  RaeldorDraken

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/24/13
Posts: 1

10/24/13 5:06:34 PM#45
Originally posted by Xthos
Originally posted by Sephastus

Go play Japans most popular game: Monster Hunter.

 

4 buttons, of these for attacking, and all 4 tied to your weapon. Fun... AS... Heck!

 

Number of skills is independent of the fun or longevity of the game, which is what I am interested in.

 I would be more excited if it were just 8 skills that you made your skill deck from, verse 4 from a weapon, but I can see how the 4/4 approach is probably a 1000 times easier to balance also...I will wait and see, before I kill it.  MY biggest thing is that the weapon skills better have spells and such for casters, because if it is all close combat stuff, count me out probably, because that would mean from the demonstration the most attack spells I could have is 2, due to the way they said the 4 abilities would work, and the most offensive class would have 2 of the 4 abilities of the class be offensive (others would be movement stuff and misc things).  I could not see playing a caster with 2 spells to damage things.

 

It's only a guess but i think that will be as you think, spells bound on weapons. In the soe live videos there is someone making walls of fire. and they didnt mentioned that on the "mage" abilities. I see the class specific abilities more powerful and meaningful, like the kind a gravitation sphere atracting mobs and damaging them etc, i see the weapons like the warrior ones with the hammer, look a too spcific for the hammer. Mage weapon example: staff, is bounded with elemental atacks, fire = wall of fire, Ice = close range slowing , etc...

  Fangrim

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/07/12
Posts: 472

10/24/13 5:15:30 PM#46
Originally posted by Talemire
There has been not a single 8-ability game that I have enjoyed, and the games with a myriad of abilities, which allow for highly-situational tactical options, have always been my most played games. Don't do this crap, SOE...

Totally agree,but they will do this crap because they want $$$ from the casual sheep that can't handle more than 1 hotbar and hide it by saying there is more skill by picking which spells to use 1 hour before you fight than having all your skills and have to take notice when to use them.

  Enrif

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/06/13
Posts: 142

10/24/13 7:57:24 PM#47
Originally posted by Fangrim
Originally posted by Talemire
There has been not a single 8-ability game that I have enjoyed, and the games with a myriad of abilities, which allow for highly-situational tactical options, have always been my most played games. Don't do this crap, SOE...

Totally agree,but they will do this crap because they want $$$ from the casual sheep that can't handle more than 1 hotbar and hide it by saying there is more skill by picking which spells to use 1 hour before you fight than having all your skills and have to take notice when to use them.

that's nonsense.

Having more then 1 bar is way to make tactics and builds less important, cause in one of the many bars you have a skill for any situation. Being a kind of Jack of all trades. That's for the lazy casuals who want everything on the silver tablet

 

Limiting the bars means specialisation and customisation are important. Not running with one build every content. Its anti-casual as you have to go through you 400+ skills to find the one you could need in the next fight.

 

Having access to all of your forty abilities, makes battle not very tactic as you don't have to choose something, because its all the time on your screen. you just have to click it quick enough. talking about twitch combat eh?

But choosing 8 out of 400 means you have to plan and think what you will need. making a tactic. Accustom to situation you failed. actually carry for the skills on your bar, and not relying that you have always access to them. 

 

 

  Fangrim

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/07/12
Posts: 472

10/25/13 3:22:37 AM#48
Originally posted by Enrif
Originally posted by Fangrim
Originally posted by Talemire
There has been not a single 8-ability game that I have enjoyed, and the games with a myriad of abilities, which allow for highly-situational tactical options, have always been my most played games. Don't do this crap, SOE...

Totally agree,but they will do this crap because they want $$$ from the casual sheep that can't handle more than 1 hotbar and hide it by saying there is more skill by picking which spells to use 1 hour before you fight than having all your skills and have to take notice when to use them.

that's nonsense.

Having more then 1 bar is way to make tactics and builds less important, cause in one of the many bars you have a skill for any situation. Being a kind of Jack of all trades. That's for the lazy casuals who want everything on the silver tablet

 

Limiting the bars means specialisation and customisation are important. Not running with one build every content. Its anti-casual as you have to go through you 400+ skills to find the one you could need in the next fight.

 

Having access to all of your forty abilities, makes battle not very tactic as you don't have to choose something, because its all the time on your screen. you just have to click it quick enough. talking about twitch combat eh?

But choosing 8 out of 400 means you have to plan and think what you will need. making a tactic. Accustom to situation you failed. actually carry for the skills on your bar, and not relying that you have always access to them. 

 

 

What? casual? haha.no way there is a trinity in my kind of games.You have set roles.You can't tank current content on anything other than a tank,heal on healers,dps on mages,scouts.Then you have bards and chanters for buffs mezzes,regen,reses. What your saying is just wrong.

And what you are saying also proves another point against the people that say trinity doesn't work,you are saying ok we wiped lets put this skill on our bars so we can win! yeah right dps dodge classes.I hate your casual crap games where you play alongside each other and no one can steal your mobs or nodes and you get adventure xp by making cloths and pies.

Lets all be friends and play alongside each other zerging and never speaking.

  Enrif

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/06/13
Posts: 142

10/26/13 8:18:05 AM#49
Originally posted by Fangrim
Originally posted by Enrif
Originally posted by Fangrim
Originally posted by Talemire
There has been not a single 8-ability game that I have enjoyed, and the games with a myriad of abilities, which allow for highly-situational tactical options, have always been my most played games. Don't do this crap, SOE...

Totally agree,but they will do this crap because they want $$$ from the casual sheep that can't handle more than 1 hotbar and hide it by saying there is more skill by picking which spells to use 1 hour before you fight than having all your skills and have to take notice when to use them.

that's nonsense.

Having more then 1 bar is way to make tactics and builds less important, cause in one of the many bars you have a skill for any situation. Being a kind of Jack of all trades. That's for the lazy casuals who want everything on the silver tablet

 

Limiting the bars means specialisation and customisation are important. Not running with one build every content. Its anti-casual as you have to go through you 400+ skills to find the one you could need in the next fight.

 

Having access to all of your forty abilities, makes battle not very tactic as you don't have to choose something, because its all the time on your screen. you just have to click it quick enough. talking about twitch combat eh?

But choosing 8 out of 400 means you have to plan and think what you will need. making a tactic. Accustom to situation you failed. actually carry for the skills on your bar, and not relying that you have always access to them. 

 

 

What? casual? haha.no way there is a trinity in my kind of games.You have set roles.You can't tank current content on anything other than a tank,heal on healers,dps on mages,scouts.Then you have bards and chanters for buffs mezzes,regen,reses. What your saying is just wrong.

And what you are saying also proves another point against the people that say trinity doesn't work,you are saying ok we wiped lets put this skill on our bars so we can win! yeah right dps dodge classes.I hate your casual crap games where you play alongside each other and no one can steal your mobs or nodes and you get adventure xp by making cloths and pies.

Lets all be friends and play alongside each other zerging and never speaking.

apples and oranges. 

Limited Bars has nothing to do with Trinity or not.

You can have 7 skills and set roles. TSW has it.

You can have 10 skills without roles. GW2 has it.

And if you would actualy read what i said, limited action bars requieres more specialisation. cause every single skill matters. 

And Trinity makes it not less zerg. Cause you know the tank tanks, the healer heals and the dps deals damage. Just run a PuG in any of your trinity games. Everyone will do what they want, and by accidents they use the same direction. Its not different than GW2 dungeons. Besdies your have more skills on your bar, and once your tanks  dies and your group wipes, bitching on the tank why he died, on the healer why he didnt keept him alive. And thats the true nature of current Trinity. Not interdependently from each other. but blaming if some one falls short for your needs. 

  Rydeson

Elite Member

Joined: 3/05/07
Posts: 3259

10/28/13 2:39:04 PM#50
Originally posted by Creslin321
Originally posted by Rydeson
     I personally hate the action twitch combat..  For me a true MMO should be about character development and world interaction.. I enjoyed working with factions and crafting.. I especially enjoyed and miss playing a druid in wolf form, running about tracking and killing my target.. Kiting is a missing role, as so is true CC and pulling..  Today's MMO are nothing more then console driven "Mortal Kombat" online.. There is virtually no character depth in today's MMO genre..

But what does action-twitch combat have to do with character development and world interaction?  I could name plenty of games WITHOUT action-twitch combat that had very little world interaction, EQ1 being a prime example.  I loved EQ1...but compared to its contemporary game UO, its world interaction was miniscule.

Anyway, I agree with you that character customization/development and world interaction are VERY important to an MMORPG, but I don't think that action-twitch combat need detract from that at all.  I mean, look at a game like Skyrim...its combat is fairly "actioney" and yet it has plenty of character development and world interaction.

In fact, I feel like action-twitch combat makes me feel more connected to the world, since combat feels more visceral and less like I'm just ordering my character around.  This is actually why I could never get into Eve...the combat there felt so disconnected to me that I just couldn't get into it.

      I think you miss understood what I was implying.. or vice versa..  I used kiting as an example of my beloved days in EQ1..  There is no twitch action combat if "kiting" is allowed.. I snare, root and proceed to kill mob from a distance.. :)  Works for me..  I don't have to worry about dodging, or parrying.. Action based twitch combat really only applies to those melee classes.. Will EQ Next allow me to kite?  pet or mez fight?  I doubt it, and that is a true shame..  GW2 is a step to action combat and I feel it has let me down in many ways.. I enjoy playing Diablo 3 on both my PC and PS3  (expansion coming :) ) but that isn't the type of combat I want to see in a MMORPG..  In my opinion and preference

  azarhal

Elite Member

Joined: 7/06/09
Posts: 576

10/28/13 2:59:27 PM#51
Originally posted by Rydeson

      There is no twitch action combat if "kiting" is allowed.. I snare, root and proceed to kill mob from a distance.. :)  Works for me..  I don't have to worry about dodging, or parrying.. Action based twitch combat really only applies to those melee classes.. Will EQ Next allow me to kite?  pet or mez fight?  I doubt it, and that is a true shame..  GW2 is a step to action combat and I feel it has let me down in many ways.. I enjoy playing Diablo 3 on both my PC and PS3  (expansion coming :) ) but that isn't the type of combat I want to see in a MMORPG..  In my opinion and preference

I classify "kiting" as twitch personally...

  Metrobius

Novice Member

Joined: 6/16/05
Posts: 93

10/28/13 6:44:52 PM#52
Kiting as twitch? Wow.
  rojoArcueid

Elite Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 5396

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

10/28/13 6:48:13 PM#53
If EQN has Action/Twitch combat i am OK with it as long as they offer native gamepad support. I do not play action/twitch games with mouse. Period. EDIT: only shooters...... Period.

My endgame begins with character creation and ends with a new mmorpg

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2718

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

10/28/13 6:51:00 PM#54
Originally posted by ghorgos
Originally posted by Scalpless

GW1 has an eight skills bar and TSW has ten. Both games are deep and smart. Quality > quantity.

But 8 buttons doesn't mean quality and with the 40 classes and all their skills it realy sounds more like quantity in general.  I have to admit i never played gw1 but both TSW and GW2 keep getting me frustrated with the lack of usable skills and the limits to its builds.  Well GW2 woul have a huge potential if you add an additional set of 5 skills that are not dependant on the weapon but have a similar cooldown like weapon skills and a 2nd set of 5 skills that work like fully passive or like signets(realy meaningfull skills not just some stats. Things like additional pets for a necro, more slots for mesmer illusions or even a permanent illusion).

8 skills and limited selection(dependant n class your 2nd set of 4 skills has specific slots) can work fpr certain playstyles like the melee-warrior or a ranger but it will be a nightmare for every caster or everyone that wan't some more complex mechanics(like cc, decent buff-/debuff-system). Another Problem for me is that 8 skills sounds like its becoming a game of role-switching every 5 minutes like rift and that did ruin immersion for me.

Having the ability to build your "deck" of skills to use is far more easier to balance then giving you access to hundreds of skills to use at one time.  I'll never play a multi-hotbar MMO game again.  It's myopic and a PITA to balance.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2718

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

10/28/13 6:52:29 PM#55
Originally posted by rojo6934
If EQN has Action/Twitch combat i am OK with it as long as they offer native gamepad support. I do not play action/twitch games with mouse. Period. EDIT: only shooters...... Period.

Fiddling with dual thumbsticks is paramount to lunacy for me, I'll never figure out the allure of Controller support when the good old fashioned Keyboard and mouse gives you the perennial sense of motor functionality.  With that being said I hope they do offer support.  Options are never a bad thing!

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  rojoArcueid

Elite Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 5396

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

10/28/13 7:07:43 PM#56
Originally posted by azzamasin
Originally posted by rojo6934
If EQN has Action/Twitch combat i am OK with it as long as they offer native gamepad support. I do not play action/twitch games with mouse. Period. EDIT: only shooters...... Period.

Fiddling with dual thumbsticks is paramount to lunacy for me, I'll never figure out the allure of Controller support when the good old fashioned Keyboard and mouse gives you the perennial sense of motor functionality.  With that being said I hope they do offer support.  Options are never a bad thing!

m/k works fantastically well on traditional mmos and thats good, but for me personally action/twitch based games (Tera, Neverwinter, TSW with the reticle option enabled) work better with gamepad.

I hope they offer both options but if they dont ill probably wont play it on PC unless Xpadder works flawlessly with that game. Xpadder doesnt work very well with TSW and NW because they have a lot of menu buttons and the modifiers dont work properly. On the other hand TERA and FFXIV work flawlessly with gamepad and both have native support.

I think i am just tired of spending too long in front of my computer whenever i want to play something and Action based games make perfect sense to offer gamepad support since there is very little use for the keyboard other than chat when i use a controller. And i usually chat through mic with my friends while playing so i dont even touch the keyboard after i set up the graphics and all that.

 

EDIT: with that said, it has to keep a PC interface. A gamepad can navigate very easily a PC interface. DCUO and Defiance console interface were bad. Skyrims SkyUI mod that turned the UI into a more PC UI is very easily used with controller.

My endgame begins with character creation and ends with a new mmorpg

  StanlyStanko

Novice Member

Joined: 10/28/11
Posts: 265

10/28/13 9:39:05 PM#57
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

Playing games like GW2, neverwinter and TSW made me realise that i love gaems with several hotbars filled with skills and real time decisions in choosing those skills...

 

On top of that it made me realize how much i love the trinity..

 

I lost my interest in EQnext because of this...

  Kyllien

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/13
Posts: 315

10/28/13 11:45:15 PM#58

First they have not told us enough about combat to know how difficult it will be.  All they have told us is that you will have to adjust your strategy as the MOBs adjust thiers.  

They told us the old trinity make up is still available however thier may be times frequently when that strategy won't work.

8 Skills if implemented with thought and balance can still offer game play in depth. 

You spy a group of orcs ahead.  They are all wearing leather armor and wiedling bows.  The trinity would not be very effective here because they can only focus on one orc.  While the other orcs fall back and pick thier targets.  Maybe they attack the wizard first since his nuke can take them all out at once.  Oh and they learned that lesson a while back and now they don't cluster together so close. 

And if you don't have the skills needed for this encounter just hide in the shadows out of range and rearrange yourselves.

Why don't we wait and see what they have to present to us down the road before making up our minds? 

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7187

10/28/13 11:55:05 PM#59
Doesn't really matter to me, I'm a gamer and if there is pvp/pve to be had, I will be near the top. I'm not a big fan of very limited hotbars though. 

When I eat chocolate chip pie it just doesn't feel like chocolate chip cookies. The texture, the consistency, it's just not the same and this is disappointing.

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7187

10/29/13 12:00:09 AM#60
Originally posted by StanlyStanko
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

Playing games like GW2, neverwinter and TSW made me realise that i love gaems with several hotbars filled with skills and real time decisions in choosing those skills...

 

On top of that it made me realize how much i love the trinity..

 

I lost my interest in EQnext because of this...

Maaan, after that 5 month (TSW 4, GW2 1) run last year, with very limited bars, I bought Panda Land... Wholly 5hi! it was an eye opener. I had so many tools again, so many more was to approach a situation, where as in GW2 it dmg, dmg, dmg and more dmg. 

When I eat chocolate chip pie it just doesn't feel like chocolate chip cookies. The texture, the consistency, it's just not the same and this is disappointing.

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