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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Raph Koster on why fanboism is bad for the industry

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  Drakephire

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/02/13
Posts: 363

10/15/13 4:51:58 PM#81
Originally posted by rodingo
Originally posted by Drakephire
  1. SWG. I remember the row after NGE hit, and all the fanbois defending SOE for gutting and destroying the game. I'll never forget these players for providing cover for SOE. 

Weird.  I don't think I saw anyone defend the NGE.  All I remember are the constant Han Solo quotes of, "Get out of here kid, this thing is gunna blow!"

Yeah, you are correct that many players bombed the forums with their disgust (me included) after the NGE announcement and change. The initial voices in support of NGE were mostly drowned out by the rest of us. But if you stayed with NGE for a month or more as I did to see if I could stomach it, the disgusted players were leaving, and their voices replaced with the rainbow and unicorns crowd. So I was unclear above with regard to time frame.  I guess at that point the damage was done, so fanbois were irrelevent really.. though perhaps we could have gotten a reset ( lol, yeah right! )

  Novusod

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/30/09
Posts: 866

10/15/13 10:17:38 PM#82
Originally posted by Drakephire

Fanboism has injured or outright destroyed games:

  1. Star Trek Online.  The fanboism was so rampant for this game, and look at it. A hollow shell of the Star Trek IP.  Oddly enough, it wasn't the Star Trek fans who were the fanbois. It was the  Star Trek fans who were trying to wrestle it away from mmo fanbois and beta seeker toadies.
  2. LOTRO. My guild and I were some of the most vocal critics of the direction LOTRO took before Alpha. The small size and lack of 'sandboxiness' seemed to do the IP a disservice.  And while the game was somewhat successful, I still believe it would have been more successful had the Fanbois not won the day.
  3. SWG. I remember the row after NGE hit, and all the fanbois defending SOE for gutting and destroying the game. I'll never forget these players for providing cover for SOE. 
  4. SWTOR: Fanbois wrecked efforts to implement after launch changes that needed to happen, and also gave undeserved praise for changes that should never have happened.  See now how fanbois are praising this new Space xpac when it is in fact nearly as bad as the rail shooter as far as what the game needs.
 
 
I agree with Raph. To be honest, if I were developing a game, I'd hardly ever listen to anything fanbois say.
 
Oh and I forgot that right now, Fanbois are really in danger of wrecking Elder Scrolls Online. Yes-men and toadies are the bane of game development.

All very good examples. Developers should be taking notes here.

 

Those NGE supporting fanbois were the absolute worst. Still will occasionally see an NGE fanboi crawl out from under a rock and say the changes were a good thing.

 

The most documented case of fanbois run a muck is what happened in APB. Here is a link to a print article in the Guardian UK  newspaper.

Example Quote laid off real time worlds employee:

One problem leading up to launch was that most people on the team weren't willing to express any negative feelings about the game. In my opinion, there was a great deal of "team spirit", too much perhaps. You see, on the beta forums, there were many players that were very vocal on explaining why the game wasn't fun. Some were extremely constructive. For the most part, these individuals were brutally torn up by the APB fan base and forum moderators. Many threads were closed, and people with negative comments about the game were branded "trolls". Not many brave souls on the team were willing to stand up and agree with these trolls.

At APB and company presentations, management went out and cherry-picked only positive comments from forums to share with the development team. At one such meeting, one team member actually stood up and expressed concerned about the dismissive attitude displayed toward APB's criticism, and received a "don't worry" response. There was a culture of emailing around only positive previews and reviews of the game. I got the feeling that many people were in a state of denial, though the fact that the denial got stronger as the criticism for APB got worse indicated that people were aware at some level that all was not well.

 

This is exactly what Ralph Koster was talking about in his interview.

  mmoguy43

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/31/09
Posts: 2300

10/15/13 11:07:18 PM#83
Originally posted by Novusod
Originally posted by Drakephire

Fanboism has injured or outright destroyed games:

  1. Star Trek Online.  The fanboism was so rampant for this game, and look at it. A hollow shell of the Star Trek IP.  Oddly enough, it wasn't the Star Trek fans who were the fanbois. It was the  Star Trek fans who were trying to wrestle it away from mmo fanbois and beta seeker toadies.
  2. LOTRO. My guild and I were some of the most vocal critics of the direction LOTRO took before Alpha. The small size and lack of 'sandboxiness' seemed to do the IP a disservice.  And while the game was somewhat successful, I still believe it would have been more successful had the Fanbois not won the day.
  3. SWG. I remember the row after NGE hit, and all the fanbois defending SOE for gutting and destroying the game. I'll never forget these players for providing cover for SOE. 
  4. SWTOR: Fanbois wrecked efforts to implement after launch changes that needed to happen, and also gave undeserved praise for changes that should never have happened.  See now how fanbois are praising this new Space xpac when it is in fact nearly as bad as the rail shooter as far as what the game needs.
 
 
I agree with Raph. To be honest, if I were developing a game, I'd hardly ever listen to anything fanbois say.
 
Oh and I forgot that right now, Fanbois are really in danger of wrecking Elder Scrolls Online. Yes-men and toadies are the bane of game development.

All very good examples. Developers should be taking notes here.

 

Those NGE supporting fanbois were the absolute worst. Still will occasionally see an NGE fanboi crawl out from under a rock and say the changes were a good thing.

 

The most documented case of fanbois run a muck is what happened in APB. Here is a link to a print article in the Guardian UK  newspaper.

Example Quote laid off real time worlds employee:

One problem leading up to launch was that most people on the team weren't willing to express any negative feelings about the game. In my opinion, there was a great deal of "team spirit", too much perhaps. You see, on the beta forums, there were many players that were very vocal on explaining why the game wasn't fun. Some were extremely constructive. For the most part, these individuals were brutally torn up by the APB fan base and forum moderators. Many threads were closed, and people with negative comments about the game were branded "trolls". Not many brave souls on the team were willing to stand up and agree with these trolls.

At APB and company presentations, management went out and cherry-picked only positive comments from forums to share with the development team. At one such meeting, one team member actually stood up and expressed concerned about the dismissive attitude displayed toward APB's criticism, and received a "don't worry" response. There was a culture of emailing around only positive previews and reviews of the game. I got the feeling that many people were in a state of denial, though the fact that the denial got stronger as the criticism for APB got worse indicated that people were aware at some level that all was not well.

 

This is exactly what Ralph Koster was talking about in his interview.

Well, I think managing your team with a balance of praise and criticism is easier that creating a game community that doesn't have any extreme fanboys. Those types of people will just happen. Having your community managers not crush any slight amount of negativity where it actually is constructive may reduce the fanboy defense force to some degree. Hard to to say.

Let's build the ultimate MMO 1 feature at a time
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/398555/page/1

  Raph

MMO Designer

Joined: 9/11/06
Posts: 117

10/16/13 12:09:05 AM#84
Originally posted by Scalpless If your game's crafting is widely regarded as awesome and people praise it everywhere, listening to the few guys who say it sucks (and they'll exist no matter what) is far from smart.

I did say at the top that the two things you most want to hear are what you did right and what you did wrong. :)

  daltanious

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/19/08
Posts: 1784

10/16/13 3:34:53 AM#85
Originally posted by Wighty

This is a great read for anyone interested!

 

This is a snippet but the entire article is a very good read on gaming development by one of the forefathers of MMO gaming design.

 

http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

 

The meat of it:

 

People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is. Especially watch out for the ones who tell you that nobody understands your genius.

Honestly, this is going to sound horrible, but self-doubt is one of your most powerful tools for craftsmanship. None of the designers you admire feel self-confident about their work in that way. None of them think that they are awesome. They all suffer from impostor complexes the size of the Titanic.

I am not saying that you need to lack confidence in yourself. (Heck, you’ll never put anything out if that’s the case! You need to have the arrogance to assume anyone will care in the first place). I am saying that nobody is ever done learning, and people who tell you you have arrived will give you a sense of complacency. You should never be complacent about your art.

Obviously you are unable to distinguish between HATE and CRITICISM. Especially when we are talking about MMO, haters (not critical minds) are prevalent.

  Scot

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5252

10/16/13 6:27:03 AM#86
Originally posted by Scalpless
Originally posted by Neo_Viper
Originally posted by Scot

What he was getting at is that you learn nothing from those who think your game is great and plenty from those who do not think it is that good.

So for a dev the naysayers are more useful. But a game gaming company does not just have devs in it, I am sure marketing is very happy with the fanbois.

It's a bit silly even from a developer perspective. You also want to know what you did right. When the vast majority praises a feature, it's not "fanboism", it's that the feature is simply good. The few grumpy sad people who think otherwise won't change that fact.

It's a weird perspective to have. If your game's crafting is widely regarded as awesome and people praise it everywhere, listening to the few guys who say it sucks (and they'll exist no matter what) is far from smart.

This is the flaw in the argument as you say. But likewise I am sure we have all seen changes in MMOs based on the popular opinions of the players, which can be totally wrong. If naysayers are giving constructive criticism, suggesting solutions and not just "I don't like this" that what the devs should be looking out for.

 

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5549

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

10/16/13 6:50:43 AM#87
Originally posted by Scot
Originally posted by Scalpless
 

This is the flaw in the argument as you say. But likewise I am sure we have all seen changes in MMOs based on the popular opinions of the players, which can be totally wrong. If naysayers are giving constructive criticism, suggesting solutions and not just "I don't like this" that what the devs should be looking out for.

It is very hard to distinguish between critics who know what they're talking about and those who do not. Luckily sometimes you can do something. For example, should you listen to all the players regarding PvP balance or just the top players? Or should you listen to the veteran players regarding the new player experience rather than the new players themselves?

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Neo_Viper

Novice Member

Joined: 5/10/13
Posts: 624

If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong.

10/16/13 8:28:00 AM#88
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by Scot
Originally posted by Scalpless
 

This is the flaw in the argument as you say. But likewise I am sure we have all seen changes in MMOs based on the popular opinions of the players, which can be totally wrong. If naysayers are giving constructive criticism, suggesting solutions and not just "I don't like this" that what the devs should be looking out for.

It is very hard to distinguish between critics who know what they're talking about and those who do not. Luckily sometimes you can do something. For example, should you listen to all the players regarding PvP balance or just the top players? Or should you listen to the veteran players regarding the new player experience rather than the new players themselves?

Good point. Most players only "complain" or "critic" with personal interest in mind, aka getting themself more powerful, and don't give a shit about balance, true for PvE/raiding but even more when we are talking about PvP.

At the end, developers have statistics and data they should use, instead of listening to the most vocal whiners or praisers.

My computer is better than yours.

  xaraph

Novice Member

Joined: 6/21/13
Posts: 3

10/16/13 8:39:59 AM#89

Lord Dupre is correct.

And since he is correct, I'll point out that he destroyed Ultima Online and Star Wars Galaxy by betraying his own principles.   How Raph still has a voice in the industry is a mystery. 

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

10/16/13 8:41:13 AM#90
Originally posted by Quirhid

It is very hard to distinguish between critics who know what they're talking about and those who do not.

I would argue that it doesn't matter if someone knows what they are talking about, what matters is whether or not they are enjoying their experience.  This isn't so much "listen to your players' suggestions" as "listen to their pain".

If one subset of your players is unhappy and another subset is saying "we don't care if you are upset about it, we like it", there is a danger that your community is going to start bleeding alienated players.  There is a problem that needs to be solved.  But as the community divides into adversarial camps, the suggestions/demands coming out of players are going to be more and more skewed in favour of one camp or the other.

What about it is causing the pain?   Are players reacting to the mechanic the way you expected and intended?  Is it really worth losing players over it?   That sort of objective analysis is really hard to do when you have defenders circling the wagons to protect you and your vision from the whiners, shouting down complaints even to the point of helping push unhappy players right out of the game.

  GrumpyMel2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1824

10/16/13 12:37:31 PM#91
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by Scot
Originally posted by Scalpless
 

This is the flaw in the argument as you say. But likewise I am sure we have all seen changes in MMOs based on the popular opinions of the players, which can be totally wrong. If naysayers are giving constructive criticism, suggesting solutions and not just "I don't like this" that what the devs should be looking out for.

It is very hard to distinguish between critics who know what they're talking about and those who do not. Luckily sometimes you can do something. For example, should you listen to all the players regarding PvP balance or just the top players? Or should you listen to the veteran players regarding the new player experience rather than the new players themselves?

Actualy I think it's valuable to listen to anyone who takes the time to put forward thoughtfull and detailed feedback about an application. It doesn't really matter whether the user is technicaly correct about how the application actualy works, because the users perception of how an application works is equaly if not more important then how the application works and that perception came from somewhere. It can just point to a different type of issue....one related to information rather then function. Again....big difference between....understanding what a user has to say and letting them take the drivers seat of what you are trying to do.

It's also important to understand that sometimes users can be perfectly correct in the points they are making but it doesn't really matter because they aren't really the target audience that the application was designed for.

 

  Raph

MMO Designer

Joined: 9/11/06
Posts: 117

10/16/13 12:59:00 PM#92
Originally posted by xaraph

Lord Dupre is correct.

And since he is correct, I'll point out that he destroyed Ultima Online and Star Wars Galaxy by betraying his own principles.   How Raph still has a voice in the industry is a mystery. 

I never went by Lord Dupre...?

In any case, at a guess you are referring to

1) Trammel

2) The NGE, maybe the CU.

Those are usually what people mean when they say stuff like that. Only thing is, I didn't do either one of those, they were after my time on each project.

Even if I had, though, I must point out that they wouldn't have existed in the first place without me; that might help explain why I still have a voice. :)

That said, I of course have made mistakes. I try to be upfront about them. Just, those two mistakes don't happen to be mine.

 

 

  GrumpyMel2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1824

10/16/13 1:03:08 PM#93
Originally posted by maplestone
Originally posted by Quirhid

It is very hard to distinguish between critics who know what they're talking about and those who do not.

I would argue that it doesn't matter if someone knows what they are talking about, what matters is whether or not they are enjoying their experience.  This isn't so much "listen to your players' suggestions" as "listen to their pain".

If one subset of your players is unhappy and another subset is saying "we don't care if you are upset about it, we like it", there is a danger that your community is going to start bleeding alienated players.  There is a problem that needs to be solved.  But as the community divides into adversarial camps, the suggestions/demands coming out of players are going to be more and more skewed in favour of one camp or the other.

What about it is causing the pain?   Are players reacting to the mechanic the way you expected and intended?  Is it really worth losing players over it?   That sort of objective analysis is really hard to do when you have defenders circling the wagons to protect you and your vision from the whiners, shouting down complaints even to the point of helping push unhappy players right out of the game.

Speaking genericaly about applications not just games or MMO's, this can also be the symptom of a problem created by marketing, PR, sales or even management not the designers or developers.  Not every product is designed for every user or type of audience. Sometimes the real reason people are complaining is because they were sold something entirely different from the product you were supposed to and did produce.

This is an incredibly difficult lesson for executives, marketers and sales staff to learn. Thier natural inclination is to try to sell a product to as many people as they possibly can. That can lead to a quick, large influx of cash....but it also usualy leads to a short lived company. Long lived companies generaly try to sell products to as many people as the product will serve well.... and try to avoid selling a product to anyone it's not suited for. You may lose a sale by doing that....but the other way around you lose a customer and the potential of any future sales.  It takes alot of discipline from management and sales and marketing to do that.....and alot of them fail at it.

As a designer/developer, it's also important to recognize when you've inhereted that type of situation....and what, if anything, you can do about it.....sometimes there just isn't anything.

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5819

10/16/13 1:34:54 PM#94
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2
Originally posted by maplestone
Originally posted by Quirhid

It is very hard to distinguish between critics who know what they're talking about and those who do not.

I would argue that it doesn't matter if someone knows what they are talking about, what matters is whether or not they are enjoying their experience.  This isn't so much "listen to your players' suggestions" as "listen to their pain".

If one subset of your players is unhappy and another subset is saying "we don't care if you are upset about it, we like it", there is a danger that your community is going to start bleeding alienated players.  There is a problem that needs to be solved.  But as the community divides into adversarial camps, the suggestions/demands coming out of players are going to be more and more skewed in favour of one camp or the other.

What about it is causing the pain?   Are players reacting to the mechanic the way you expected and intended?  Is it really worth losing players over it?   That sort of objective analysis is really hard to do when you have defenders circling the wagons to protect you and your vision from the whiners, shouting down complaints even to the point of helping push unhappy players right out of the game.

Speaking genericaly about applications not just games or MMO's, this can also be the symptom of a problem created by marketing, PR, sales or even management not the designers or developers.  Not every product is designed for every user or type of audience. Sometimes the real reason people are complaining is because they were sold something entirely different from the product you were supposed to and did produce.

This is an incredibly difficult lesson for executives, marketers and sales staff to learn. Thier natural inclination is to try to sell a product to as many people as they possibly can. That can lead to a quick, large influx of cash....but it also usualy leads to a short lived company. Long lived companies generaly try to sell products to as many people as the product will serve well.... and try to avoid selling a product to anyone it's not suited for. You may lose a sale by doing that....but the other way around you lose a customer and the potential of any future sales.  It takes alot of discipline from management and sales and marketing to do that.....and alot of them fail at it.

As a designer/developer, it's also important to recognize when you've inhereted that type of situation....and what, if anything, you can do about it.....sometimes there just isn't anything.

Both you and maplestone make excellent points.

Sales and marketing are the hardest aspects to deal with because they often create unrealistic expectations in the clients. Sometimes our analysts who do the projects and the developers supporting the apps have to somehow bridge the gap created by the sales expectation and what the applications and processes actually deliver.

Listening to customer feedback is really important though. Does the application deliver the intended results how the customer envisions? How easy is it to use? What worked for them and what didn't? What lacking functionality do they wish the program had? There are so many interesting things to learn if we listen to our users. The entire point of the programs are to do tasks and make them easier/automated so it only makes sense to try and deliver what people want.

Your last statement is what I consider the sanity clause. Trying to fix the impossible is the direct path to frustration for all parties. I just got out of a meeting where one of the business partners tried to be the hero and ended up wasting 3 more weeks in an overbudget, past deadline project. They just should have realized the limitations of the ecosystem.

Curse you AquaScum!

  User Deleted
10/16/13 1:44:48 PM#95


Originally posted by Raph

Originally posted by xaraph Lord Dupre is correct. And since he is correct, I'll point out that he destroyed Ultima Online and Star Wars Galaxy by betraying his own principles.   How Raph still has a voice in the industry is a mystery. 
I never went by Lord Dupre...?

In any case, at a guess you are referring to

1) Trammel

2) The NGE, maybe the CU.

Those are usually what people mean when they say stuff like that. Only thing is, I didn't do either one of those, they were after my time on each project.

Even if I had, though, I must point out that they wouldn't have existed in the first place without me; that might help explain why I still have a voice. :)

That said, I of course have made mistakes. I try to be upfront about them. Just, those two mistakes don't happen to be mine.

 

 


heh, he's gone.

Only thing I blame you for is showing me what an mmo could be. Now I have to deal with everyone else catching up. Its happening though. Slowly but surely.

  Amaranthar

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/18/06
Posts: 2171

10/16/13 1:49:55 PM#96
Originally posted by BMBender
Originally posted by Hrimnir
Originally posted by Wighty
(Snip)

Heh it's not just gaming.  Go run a marathon; it's truly pathetic when +50 geriatrics finish in the top 1% among a field of predominately -25 yr olds

We +50 geriatrics grew up chasing bulls to pin the tail on, and if we wanted a lucky rabbit's foot we had to chase it down ourselves. So it's not really fair.

Once upon a time....

  MumboJumbo

Elite Member

Joined: 7/18/10
Posts: 3178

Veni, Vidi, Converti

10/16/13 1:50:20 PM#97
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2
Originally posted by maplestone
Originally posted by Quirhid

It is very hard to distinguish between critics who know what they're talking about and those who do not.

I would argue that it doesn't matter if someone knows what they are talking about, what matters is whether or not they are enjoying their experience.  This isn't so much "listen to your players' suggestions" as "listen to their pain".

If one subset of your players is unhappy and another subset is saying "we don't care if you are upset about it, we like it", there is a danger that your community is going to start bleeding alienated players.  There is a problem that needs to be solved.  But as the community divides into adversarial camps, the suggestions/demands coming out of players are going to be more and more skewed in favour of one camp or the other.

What about it is causing the pain?   Are players reacting to the mechanic the way you expected and intended?  Is it really worth losing players over it?   That sort of objective analysis is really hard to do when you have defenders circling the wagons to protect you and your vision from the whiners, shouting down complaints even to the point of helping push unhappy players right out of the game.

Speaking genericaly about applications not just games or MMO's, this can also be the symptom of a problem created by marketing, PR, sales or even management not the designers or developers.  Not every product is designed for every user or type of audience. Sometimes the real reason people are complaining is because they were sold something entirely different from the product you were supposed to and did produce.

This is an incredibly difficult lesson for executives, marketers and sales staff to learn. Thier natural inclination is to try to sell a product to as many people as they possibly can. That can lead to a quick, large influx of cash....but it also usualy leads to a short lived company. Long lived companies generaly try to sell products to as many people as the product will serve well.... and try to avoid selling a product to anyone it's not suited for. You may lose a sale by doing that....but the other way around you lose a customer and the potential of any future sales.  It takes alot of discipline from management and sales and marketing to do that.....and alot of them fail at it.

As a designer/developer, it's also important to recognize when you've inhereted that type of situation....and what, if anything, you can do about it.....sometimes there just isn't anything.

I'm going to hijack what GM2 says here about audience to make my own point, seeing as the ama is kicking off late:

 

 

Good work may not have an audience.

This is a sad truth. There is no correlation between quality and popularity. You may make something that is sophisticated, subtle, expressive, brilliant, and lose out to what is shallow and facile and brash. Oh well. And that really is the right attitude to have about it, too: oh well. Getting bitter about it is pointless.

That said, don’t underestimate the skill required in being simple, polished, and accessible. Dense and rich is easy. Simple is hard.You denigrate “pop” at your peril.

 

 

I've probably been harping on in these forums to only make this one single point: The audience is the "work". If there's no audience or too small an audience for "good work" in the video-game industry then you're using the wrong approach (making games) or targeting the wrong audience for your work ("video-games players who may simply be consumers").

I'ts especially pertinent because the dilemma of mmorpgs is to get the highest sub numbers possible/biggest marketshare instead of what would make a better mmorpg - making a mmorpg for a specific audience or a well organized community of players for the long-term. That contract between developer and player being more mutually in agreement and honest.

The opposite and prevalent with mmorpgs because they're such demanding endeavours (which involves the marketing talking heads pitching their sales slippery) if you're making a sort of high risk to bring to market entertainment product that involves large teams of experts to bring about such then the tendency to produce it for any random punter that's a very different proposition, more purely commercial exercise that can be measured by how much money it makes/how popular it becomes for it's definition of success: You're pressing some buttons right if you're achieving those goals to be sure. But you could ask yourself am I providing better means for players to be able to time-waste (people are not very good at being bored!) or have I been side-tracked away from making better means for players to use their creativity, in an attempt to make the product launching successfully?

Thanks for writing the blog the "rules of mmos" especially is a favorite - the François de La Rochefoucauld aphorisms of mmorpgs appropriately so.

Hmm, a dramatic flourish is called for /deletes account. 

>"That said, don’t underestimate the skill required in being simple, polished, and accessible." ~ Check out Steph Thirion's wip "Faraway"

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5819

10/16/13 1:52:38 PM#98
Originally posted by xaraph

Lord Dupre is correct.

And since he is correct, I'll point out that he destroyed Ultima Online and Star Wars Galaxy by betraying his own principles.   How Raph still has a voice in the industry is a mystery. 

At some point you just need to let it go and stop throwing things back in the face of anyone in the way. It was a long time ago in an mmo and internet ecosystem that is now far far away.

How does he still have a voice in the industry? Because he's still alive, still has good ideas, and has the potential to create great games. It's the same thing with any long term veteran developer/designer - Richard Garriott, Marc Jacobs, Scott Hartsman, Matt Miller, Jeff Strain, just to toss around a few big names, but there are tons of other less publicized people that could go on that list - Every one has made some bad design decisions at one point or another. Why are they still relevant? Because they still have good ideas and a lot of experience and most importantly a desire to try new things based on their experiences in the past.

Sometimes things don't work right. Sometimes they do. One doesn't stop doing just because it all went wrong one time. That also doesn't make what they have to offer irrelevant. Ask yourself this: Who are you to dismiss the entirety of what another person has to offer?

Curse you AquaScum!

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19839

10/16/13 1:57:58 PM#99
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by xaraph

Lord Dupre is correct.

And since he is correct, I'll point out that he destroyed Ultima Online and Star Wars Galaxy by betraying his own principles.   How Raph still has a voice in the industry is a mystery. 

At some point you just need to let it go and stop throwing things back in the face of anyone in the way. It was a long time ago in an mmo and internet ecosystem that is now far far away.

How does he still have a voice in the industry? Because he's still alive, still has good ideas, and has the potential to create great games. It's the same thing with any long term veteran developer/designer - Richard Garriott, Marc Jacobs, Scott Hartsman, Matt Miller, Jeff Strain, just to toss around a few big names, but there are tons of other less publicized people that could go on that list - Every one has made some bad design decisions at one point or another. Why are they still relevant? Because they still have good ideas and a lot of experience and most importantly a desire to try new things based on their experiences in the past.

Sometimes things don't work right. Sometimes they do. One doesn't stop doing just because it all went wrong one time. That also doesn't make what they have to offer irrelevant. Ask yourself this: Who are you to dismiss the entirety of what another person has to offer?

"has the potential to create great games" - i don't play potential, I play games. Raph has not produced anything successful for a long long time. Good ideas are a dime a dozen. Just go on any gaming site and you will see.

 

"Who are you to dismiss the entirety of what another person has to offer?" .... i am a consumer. I can dismiss anyone for any reason. I have no obligation to take him, or anyone else seriously. Not only he has no games to offer me, even if he does, i can just decide not to give his stuff a chance just because i have so many other entertainment option.

 

 

  BlizzardShill

Novice Member

Joined: 6/06/13
Posts: 34

10/16/13 2:10:40 PM#100

I might be alone among the sea of savages here when I throw this out, but you should look up 'groupthink'.  It's a more generalized concept of the same issue.  Amusing enough, most of the discussion taking place in this thread is a rehash of the talks I've seen three to four decades ago (without the narrow focus on video games, of course).

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