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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Raph Koster on why fanboism is bad for the industry

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221 posts found
  TangentPoint

Elite Member

Joined: 2/12/12
Posts: 1104

The "Real Game" begins at character creation.

10/15/13 9:16:03 AM#41
Originally posted by vandal5627
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by Neo_Viper
Originally posted by Doogiehowser

Whole heartedly agree with the topic. This website is the perfect example where posters would 'white knight' for companies and give an impression that game devs can do no wrong.

This website is the perfect example where posters would bash a game and/or a company and give the impression that game devs never do anything right.

See what I did here?

Yes i see what you did here....you didn't bother to read the original topic or you completely missed the point.

There is difference between offering legitimate crticism and screaming 'this game is fail ..lololo'. OP is talking about the former type of criticism and why snubbing it with fanboyism is bad.

But you're missing his point, this site is fulll of the latter.

This site is full of fanboys who can't differentiate between legitimate critiques and bashing. Worse still, they make zero effort to make that distinction and just toss all criticism - no matter how it's presented - into the same category, and dismiss it all the same.

People who are intolerant of any  criticism of "their game" are the last ones to be deciding what is or isn't useful to a developer. Raph explains the situation quite clearly. I don't think he needs to have fanboys on a forum pre-filtering the feedback based on what they find "ok".

What I'm seeing in this thread are responses from people already trying to find loopholes and exceptions to what Raph says, while continuing to prove that they either didn't read the entire article, didn't comprehend it, or have simply chosen to ignore it, because they can't bring themselves to accept that someone with criticism about "their game" could actually have a valid point.

Funny thing is, I predicted exactly that reaction from many here right in my first response, before I'd even read any of the replies. To quote myself...

"Will a veteran of the industry, who's seen it all from both sides of the fence, the good, the bad and the ugly of it command any more attention or respect from people who want to defend "their game" from any and all criticism? Probably not. They'll just find some arbitrary detail to dismiss everything he says outright and continue to wallow in their willful ignorance, believing "their game" is beyond criticism."

 

 

My philosophy on MMORPGs:

Leveling is what happens while you're playing the rest of the game.

Don't worry about levels. Just play.

  User Deleted
10/15/13 9:19:41 AM#42
Anybody who believes their own hype are already flawed and will screw up anyways. Fanboyism is annoying, but not dangerous.
  Doogiehowser

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 1939

10/15/13 9:25:48 AM#43
Originally posted by vandal5627
 

But he does have a point correct?  You can see that this site is full of the latter as well?  You going to tell me that's not true?  I"m not even arguing against your point that the former doesn't exist.

I don't know whats the point of bringing up 'latter' in this conversation when my post was directly related to what OP said. he is talking about former kind of crticism and so am i. Is this another attempt to derail the topic and make it about fanboys vs haters?

"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell

"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney

  Neo_Viper

Novice Member

Joined: 5/10/13
Posts: 624

If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong.

10/15/13 9:33:20 AM#44
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by vandal5627
 

But he does have a point correct?  You can see that this site is full of the latter as well?  You going to tell me that's not true?  I"m not even arguing against your point that the former doesn't exist.

I don't know whats the point of bringing up 'latter' in this conversation when my post was directly related to what OP said. he is talking about former kind of crticism and so am i. Is this another attempt to derail the topic and make it about fanboys vs haters?

It's not an attempt. It's a fact that haters are just as bad as fanbois. It's also a fact that the vast majority of players are somewhere inbetween those two extremes, which are sadly the most vocal.

As I said in a previous post, extremes are never good, no matter what side, no matter what topic (not only games).

My computer is better than yours.

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

10/15/13 9:54:58 AM#45
Originally posted by TangentPoint

What I'm seeing in this thread are responses from people already trying to find loopholes and exceptions to what Raph says, while continuing to prove that they either didn't read the entire article, didn't comprehend it, or have simply chosen to ignore it, because they can't bring themselves to accept that someone with criticism about "their game" could actually have a valid point.

Well, I was going to make a fawning post about how insightful and well-written the post was, but I looked at it and it came off as sounding like a complete fanboy post.  So I fumbled around trying to find at least some new angle to post about.  Looking for the loopholes or exceptions felt like the best tribute I could pay to the blog.

  Nilenya

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/01/08
Posts: 335

10/15/13 9:59:29 AM#46
Originally posted by TangentPoint
Originally posted by vandal5627
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by Neo_Viper
Originally posted by Doogiehowser

Whole heartedly agree with the topic. This website is the perfect example where posters would 'white knight' for companies and give an impression that game devs can do no wrong.

This website is the perfect example where posters would bash a game and/or a company and give the impression that game devs never do anything right.

See what I did here?

Yes i see what you did here....you didn't bother to read the original topic or you completely missed the point.

There is difference between offering legitimate crticism and screaming 'this game is fail ..lololo'. OP is talking about the former type of criticism and why snubbing it with fanboyism is bad.

But you're missing his point, this site is fulll of the latter.

This site is full of fanboys who can't differentiate between legitimate critiques and bashing. Worse still, they make zero effort to make that distinction and just toss all criticism - no matter how it's presented - into the same category, and dismiss it all the same.

People who are intolerant of any  criticism of "their game" are the last ones to be deciding what is or isn't useful to a developer. Raph explains the situation quite clearly. I don't think he needs to have fanboys on a forum pre-filtering the feedback based on what they find "ok".

What I'm seeing in this thread are responses from people already trying to find loopholes and exceptions to what Raph says, while continuing to prove that they either didn't read the entire article, didn't comprehend it, or have simply chosen to ignore it, because they can't bring themselves to accept that someone with criticism about "their game" could actually have a valid point.

Funny thing is, I predicted exactly that reaction from many here right in my first response, before I'd even read any of the replies. To quote myself...

"Will a veteran of the industry, who's seen it all from both sides of the fence, the good, the bad and the ugly of it command any more attention or respect from people who want to defend "their game" from any and all criticism? Probably not. They'll just find some arbitrary detail to dismiss everything he says outright and continue to wallow in their willful ignorance, believing "their game" is beyond criticism."

 

 

Basically people on this site behave just as people do everywhere else, and the developers who cater to them, are just a reflection on how people go about things everywhere, in every aspect of life. No doubt Koster is right, as far as how to create to the best of your ability and avoid stagnation, but it can be applied to every aspect of life and to every person alive. 

People on this site are no different in their behaviour when defending "their" games than anywhere else where people defend their opions and viewpoints, and they are as want to reapply their behaviour by the time the next game rolls around, regardless of wether "their" game was all they thought it would be. Partly because taking personal responsibility for your part in the circle jerk chain is almost beyond peoples capacity for viewing themselves in context with others. People never learn, and have a hard time applying how their behaviour affects the outcome of things,  struggle or are completely ignorant to draw conclusions on how that behaviour keeps churning poor games out of the developers who cater to them. Also, it is very difficult for reward oriented mammals to reign in adulation when it generally means exclusion from the group that gets heard. Popular opinion is a strange creature.

if you are the exception to this, than congratulations; you can apply your intelligence to your behaviour and its consequences beyond the readily apparent. But most intelligent people cannot. Unfortunately.

 

It is also slightly moot with regards to gaming, atleast the big AA titles. it might have been a fandriven, passion product, when Verant developed Everquest, but since then the gaming companies have become coorporations, and I really dont think the men in suits with the majority of shares, give a flying fuck about how creative you are, if the popular opinion is raging the pre-release hype into the ground. But like I said in the beginning, Koster is saying something that is generally applicable to generally everything in life, if you want to be better tomorrow, than today.

  drbaltazar

Novice Member

Joined: 3/28/07
Posts: 7937

10/15/13 10:07:50 AM#47

it is bad only for game that are instanced .go check ff14 I am pretty sure s-e is very happy .bottom line, people want to see each other in game instancing doesn't permit it .so a game fully instanced will always have more negative critic on average all else being = yes there are exeption but I say average so count the total game released this year and make an average!

two thing tho break this trend ,buy to play (a la gw or tsw)and player able to see each other when they game .

you have neither ?then sorry but your game will be be full of thread unfavorable toward it !

  Umbrood

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/09/03
Posts: 1842

10/15/13 10:34:44 AM#48

I think most of us who have been here a while, and seen games come and go can agree on one thing.

Fanboys have killed way way more MMO's then any hater could ever dream of.

In fact, I will give the hardcore hater a tip, if they REALLY want to see a game fail.

Hating on good features can be detrimental, but praising bad features?

That is the ticket to burn it down!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Jerek_

I wonder if you honestly even believe what you type, or if you live in a made up world of facts.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  Nadia

Elite Member

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11303

10/15/13 10:40:40 AM#49
Originally posted by Neo_Viper

extremes are never good, no matter what side, no matter what topic (not only games).

wise words

  GrumpyMel2

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1789

10/15/13 11:18:29 AM#50

What he is saying, I believe, is something I generaly agree with. You want to listen to your audience. Listening does not equate with letting them into the drivers seat to control your work. On the contrary though, I think positive feedback is helpfull... maybe not for someone like Koster who probably doesn't need it. However for the rest of us who aren't particularly fameous in our respective fields..... a bit of a shot in the arm, knowing that someone recognizes and appreciates you work is not a bad thing at all. You just can't get lost in it.

For example, one of the things I've done as a hobby (strictly amatuer) is to create a few scenarios for people to play in turn based strategy games and make them available on the games public boards. When someone comes along and says "Hey, I really enjoyed that scenario you created...it was fun to play" that provides a sense of accomplishment, that it was worthwhile investing the hours to do that, because someone other then yourself derived enjoyment from your work. At the very least for people who are "modders" or "scenario makers" or that sort of thing, positive feedback is important.

At the same time the X isn't working well or I don't like how you designed Y is invaluable. Serious feedback is incredibly helpfull. Of course, as others have mentioned here...that is directly at odds with what folks from PR and Marketing want to see happen. Honestly.....those guys are a designer/fdevelopers/engineers worst enemy.... because alot of the time, they aren't actualy selling what you've produced....they are selling an illusion.

  Theocritus

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 3613

10/15/13 11:47:01 AM#51
This is a good point: When you hear game after game after game and how great each one is (before many have even played it), then eventually those words fall upon deaf ears......It used to be frustrating to have people tell us what a great game such and such is, then we pay for it and realize its garbage and we wasted our money.......False praise is a terrible thing......MMOs need to earn their praise, not be nominated as the greatest game of all time before anyone has even played it for ten seconds.
  Doogiehowser

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 1939

10/15/13 12:08:12 PM#52
Originally posted by Neo_Viper
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by vandal5627
 

But he does have a point correct?  You can see that this site is full of the latter as well?  You going to tell me that's not true?  I"m not even arguing against your point that the former doesn't exist.

I don't know whats the point of bringing up 'latter' in this conversation when my post was directly related to what OP said. he is talking about former kind of crticism and so am i. Is this another attempt to derail the topic and make it about fanboys vs haters?

It's not an attempt. It's a fact that haters are just as bad as fanbois. It's also a fact that the vast majority of players are somewhere inbetween those two extremes, which are sadly the most vocal.

As I said in a previous post, extremes are never good, no matter what side, no matter what topic (not only games).

Once again you didn't bother to read the OP.  Raph Koster is obviously only talking about legitimate crticism and not bashing. Even i don't condone one line hate replies for sake of trolling.

So i wonder why you keep bringing this up when no body is even talking about that kind of criticism? infact you are the first one to bring it up which is completely out of context of what Raph said.

"The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
-Jesse Schell

"Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
-Luke McKinney

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19248

10/15/13 12:12:01 PM#53
Originally posted by Theocritus
This is a good point: When you hear game after game after game and how great each one is (before many have even played it), then eventually those words fall upon deaf ears......It used to be frustrating to have people tell us what a great game such and such is, then we pay for it and realize its garbage and we wasted our money.......False praise is a terrible thing......MMOs need to earn their praise, not be nominated as the greatest game of all time before anyone has even played it for ten seconds.

Just play F2P games. There is no excuse for paying for something you do not like.

 

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5575

10/15/13 12:17:48 PM#54
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by Neo_Viper
Originally posted by Doogiehowser
Originally posted by vandal5627
 

But he does have a point correct?  You can see that this site is full of the latter as well?  You going to tell me that's not true?  I"m not even arguing against your point that the former doesn't exist.

I don't know whats the point of bringing up 'latter' in this conversation when my post was directly related to what OP said. he is talking about former kind of crticism and so am i. Is this another attempt to derail the topic and make it about fanboys vs haters?

It's not an attempt. It's a fact that haters are just as bad as fanbois. It's also a fact that the vast majority of players are somewhere inbetween those two extremes, which are sadly the most vocal.

As I said in a previous post, extremes are never good, no matter what side, no matter what topic (not only games).

Once again you didn't bother to read the OP.  Raph Koster is obviously only talking about legitimate crticism and not bashing. Even i don't condone one line hate replies for sake of trolling.

So i wonder why you keep bringing this up when no body is even talking about that kind of criticism? infact you are the first one to bring it up which is completely out of content of what Raph said.

I think some people, maybe the fanbois, can't distinguish genuine valid criticism from negative bashing spew. I came away with the same impression you did. This isn't about condoning or promoting disrespectful slander because some people like to get their jollies that way. It's about not drinking the rock star coolaid and basking in the glow of rainbow sharts when there are weaknesses in the design that could be addressed.

Even if someone isn't in the target demographic their feedback should be noted because you don't really know how end users are going to use your software. We have a couple pieces of software at my company that are intended to be used in a certain manner, but the users apply it in all sorts of creative ways. It would have been better if we had listened and watched more closely to their needs and feedback. His blog post is good because it can apply to most any software and even beyond that.

I think game developers might be particularly vulnerable because it's such high profile stuff and there is a real penchant to succumb to the attention and limelight.

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17011

10/15/13 12:21:30 PM#55
Originally posted by dave6660

The "never stop learning" part I absolutely agree with.

The "self doubt" part I do not.  Self doubt is great for people who are wrong a lot or make frequent mistakes.  I think may have just chosen his words poorly.  You want somebody who is confident but not arrogant, somebody who can admit to his mistakes and learn from them.

I agree with you Dave.

I write music as well as libretti/"book" and there is no self doubt at all. But there is a sense that things can always be better and that constnatly learning and honing your craft will spur you onward.

I belong to a group that workshops new opera and new music theater and I've rarely experienced people who had self doubt about there abilities. More like doubt about whether this is a good use of their time.

I know singers who can get up on stage at the drop of a dime so confident are they in their instrument but they might doubt whether or not the profession is worth it.

 

I think he could have reworded that. Or maybe he's just speaking about himself.

I can say that believing in one's own press isn't necessarily a good thing.

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5575

10/15/13 12:26:48 PM#56
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by dave6660

The "never stop learning" part I absolutely agree with.

The "self doubt" part I do not.  Self doubt is great for people who are wrong a lot or make frequent mistakes.  I think may have just chosen his words poorly.  You want somebody who is confident but not arrogant, somebody who can admit to his mistakes and learn from them.

I agree with you Dave.

I write music as well as libretti/"book" and there is no self doubt at all. But there is a sense that things can always be better and that constnatly learning and honing your craft will spur you onward.

I belong to a group that workshops new opera and new music theater and I've rarely experienced people who had self doubt about there abilities. More like doubt about whether this is a good use of their time.

I know singers who can get up on stage at the drop of a dime so confident are they in their instrument but they might doubt whether or not the profession is worth it.

 

I think he could have reworded that. Or maybe he's just speaking about himself.

I can say that believing in one's own press isn't necessarily a good thing.

Yeah, that could have been worded better. Maybe "don't be over-confident" or think too highly of your work in that it's not subject to improvement. The point I got out of that is be willing to see things through the eyes of others and that your work could be refined. I like the concept of refining because it doesn't negatively criticize the original piece, but allows for improvement and polish.

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  Burntvet

Elite Member

Joined: 11/16/07
Posts: 2734

10/15/13 12:34:10 PM#57

I also have to echo the others that said the so-called gaming press is just as much to blame as the fanboys in creating unrealistic levels of hype and spin around game releases.

Is there a major title from a large advertiser that hasn't been praised to the skies? Even when it is mediocre or worse? (TW:Rome2 is just the most recent example of this.)

The game developers' marketing people create the spin, the gaming press blitzes the public with it, and the fanboys defend it to the virtual death.  And then the consumer ends up suffering for it.

 

That is the problem in the gaming industry these days.

  flclimax

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/05/12
Posts: 92

10/15/13 12:38:18 PM#58
Funcom is hit hardest by this reading their forums and every Fc game related post on sites like massively. a sickening cult, imo.
  Reklaw

Elite Member

Joined: 1/07/06
Posts: 6106

The adult I am takes care of most things real life. However my inner-child is a GAMER!!

10/15/13 12:41:20 PM#59

Thanks for sharing was a intresting read.

Didn't get the fibe from reading it as OP's tittle suggested mainly  because the overall story was pure on getting criticism.

In fact I have little issue with fanboism as I can make up my own mind. I do mind people who are criticle without any substance or not even constructive. If someone is criticle in a constructive way then I appreciate that. Unfortunately that rarely happens happens in these forums.

  Wighty

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/08
Posts: 566

 
OP  10/15/13 12:45:02 PM#60
Originally posted by Burntvet

I also have to echo the others that said the so-called gaming press is just as much to blame as the fanboys in creating unrealistic levels of hype and spin around game releases.

Is there a major title from a large advertiser that hasn't been praised to the skies? Even when it is mediocre or worse? (TW:Rome2 is just the most recent example of this.)

The game developers' marketing people create the spin, the gaming press blitzes the public with it, and the fanboys defend it to the virtual death.  And then the consumer ends up suffering for it.

 

That is the problem in the gaming industry these days.

This too is true... I mean here we are in this day and age hearing about games that won't be released for YEARSSSSS! Hell not even close to alpha in years, yet they are splashed all over web sites for ad time, likes, clicks or whatever.

 

Gamers latch onto concepts and start fantasizing about features that may never even enter a game.

 

Then you have the armchair game reviewers that battle it out on forums because they saw a leaked screenshot.

What are your other Hobbies?

Gaming is Dirt Cheap compared to this...

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