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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » f2p projected to be $2.5B market in 2013

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207 posts found
  Fusion

Old School

Joined: 5/21/03
Posts: 1359

10/16/13 5:43:35 PM#81

If true, sad, so sad.

Currently playing: -

Waiting for: Class4.

Dead and Buried: ESO, NWO, GW2, SWTOR, Darkfall, AO, AC2, Vanguard, CoH/V, EnB, EVE, Neocron, FE, EQ, EQ2, DAoC, FFXI, FFXIV, SWG, WoW, and billions of eastern junks!

  JasonJ

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 414

10/16/13 5:46:51 PM#82
Sure are a lot of people fighting hard to keep having to pay money to play a game no matter how much information conflicts with the reason to do it no longer exists...or ever did for that matter.
  Yamota

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/05/03
Posts: 6506

"I fight so you don't have to."

10/16/13 5:55:42 PM#83
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by Yamota
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Yamota

F2P is a sham. It is a way for corporations to suck out money from weakminded people who sink more and more money into a video game. Granted not all, I would say even most, F2P players are like that, but they are who are keeping F2P games up.

 

Funny,  You can say this exact same phrase almost word for word and be talking about p2p.

Nope. In a traditional P2P, not the one's which have a cash shop and thus double dipping, you pay a small fixed amount per month and every couple of years you pay a fixed amount for an expansion. So there is no way for them to charge you more than that, which you have in so called F2P games which are often built up in a way to nickle and dime you if you want this or that item/bonus etc. 

Sure not everyone needs to pay, and thus get a less than ideal experience, but the fact that they are projecting a 2.5 billion revenue shows that a lot of people are.

If you're buying the ex pack what are you paying for all that time with the sub ? ...other than the whole weak minded...sinking money into a game ect ect thing

That's why the exact same phrase can be used word for word for both pay types. A sub + paying for content is still double dipping. they've just been doing it so long people make better excuses for it.

What you are paying for is constant small content adds and bug fixes, cheat fixes etc. Sub based MMORPGs has far more active development than one time boxed purchases of that time.

However F2P is very different, but some people just dont get it. F2P games are fundamentally designed in a way to make you pay a little bit here and a little bit there. For a P2P you pay a fixed amount of money for a fixed content where as in F2P the game is designed for you to keep paying and the more you pay the more powerful/more aestethic pleasing your character becomes as well a whole bunch of so called convenience items such as insta travel, insta rez etc.

P2P makes you pay for a game where as F2P is designed, as a game, to make you pay. There is a subtle difference with profound consequences. One is a game, the other is a slot machine/cash cow.

  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4656

10/16/13 5:59:45 PM#84
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by DamonVile
  $31/month is higher than $15/month ( what subs are )....so if the real f2p players are in the missing markets what does that say about the argument you're trying to make here ?

That is average per paid players. There are lots who don't.

 

Anyone who wont pay isn't relevant to the point anyway.  They have no influence on the amount when you're looking at the avg paying player. Someone that spends $1 does more damage to that number than someone that spends 0.

They lower the amount the avg player spends but that isn't what's showing on that chart.

People keep saying that f2p is supported by whales but without being able to actually see the points on the graph and where they fall and what it actually looks like.All the data posted so far shows is it's people spending $30 a month. I don't really consider that a big deal, considering what some of my other forms of entertainment cost.

 

People are like cats. When they die, you get a new one.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19506

 
OP  10/16/13 6:01:10 PM#85
Originally posted by Yamota
 

What you are paying for is constant small content adds and bug fixes, cheat fixes etc. Sub based MMORPGs has far more active development than one time boxed purchases of that time.

However F2P is very different, but some people just dont get it. F2P games are fundamentally designed in a way to make you pay a little bit here and a little bit there. For a P2P you pay a fixed amount of money for a fixed content where as in F2P the game is designed for you to keep paying and the more you pay the more powerful/more aestethic pleasing your character becomes as well a whole bunch of so called convenience items such as insta travel, insta rez etc.

P2P makes you pay for a game where as F2P is designed, as a game, to make you pay. There is a subtle difference with profound consequences. One is a game, the other is a slot machine/cash cow.

Not me. F2P is designed to make *some* pay, and the whales to pay a lot.

As for me, so far they make me pay nothing.

The big difference, which you don't seem to get, is that p2p makes everyone pay, and F2P only makes some pay.

 

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4784

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

10/16/13 6:06:38 PM#86
Originally posted by Yamota
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by Yamota
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Yamota

F2P is a sham. It is a way for corporations to suck out money from weakminded people who sink more and more money into a video game. Granted not all, I would say even most, F2P players are like that, but they are who are keeping F2P games up.

 

Funny,  You can say this exact same phrase almost word for word and be talking about p2p.

Nope. In a traditional P2P, not the one's which have a cash shop and thus double dipping, you pay a small fixed amount per month and every couple of years you pay a fixed amount for an expansion. So there is no way for them to charge you more than that, which you have in so called F2P games which are often built up in a way to nickle and dime you if you want this or that item/bonus etc. 

Sure not everyone needs to pay, and thus get a less than ideal experience, but the fact that they are projecting a 2.5 billion revenue shows that a lot of people are.

If you're buying the ex pack what are you paying for all that time with the sub ? ...other than the whole weak minded...sinking money into a game ect ect thing

That's why the exact same phrase can be used word for word for both pay types. A sub + paying for content is still double dipping. they've just been doing it so long people make better excuses for it.

What you are paying for is constant small content adds and bug fixes, cheat fixes etc. Sub based MMORPGs has far more active development than one time boxed purchases of that time.

However F2P is very different, but some people just dont get it. F2P games are fundamentally designed in a way to make you pay a little bit here and a little bit there. For a P2P you pay a fixed amount of money for a fixed content where as in F2P the game is designed for you to keep paying and the more you pay the more powerful/more aestethic pleasing your character becomes as well a whole bunch of so called convenience items such as insta travel, insta rez etc.

P2P makes you pay for a game where as F2P is designed, as a game, to make you pay. There is a subtle difference with profound consequences. One is a game, the other is a slot machine/cash cow.

 Hmm.  No.  The free to play games I've played haven't been like that at all.  No more grind, or stumbling spots than allready exist in p2p.

What they do offer me is more choice than p2p.  They give a good chunk for free.  If I like it I'll keep playing.  yes they want me to pay something and if I choose to I will, however I'm not obligated to.

They have to give me a fun game first before they get any money from me.

P2P are the slot machines.  They are the only games, of any games ever, that I have been requried to continuously plunk money into in order to play.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Beatnik59

Elite Member

Joined: 11/23/05
Posts: 2222

"Playing things I shouldn''t be playing since 1977."

10/16/13 6:58:54 PM#87

A great blog by Edward Castronova on the notion that FTP=Game, and Subscription=world.

http://terranova.blogs.com/terra_nova/2012/12/the-decline-of-swtor.html

"EVE can charge subscriptions - people like to quasi-live in EVE. Nobody wants to quasi-live in SWTOR, or, it is not possible to just live there. You can't live on a race track. Race tracks are for racing. You go around a few times and quit. Why subscribe to that?"

__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken

"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.

"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE

  goboygo

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/02/13
Posts: 356

10/16/13 7:02:23 PM#88
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by goboygo
Its not free to play if they are projecting 2.5B in revenue now is it.

You are confused.

It is not free for the whales, but free for me. "Free" can apply to some.

 

I'm not confused at all.  I can argue that I can watch baseball games for free at Wrigley field by standing on the roof of buildings.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12126

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

10/16/13 7:05:45 PM#89
Originally posted by Yamota
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by Yamota
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Yamota

F2P is a sham. It is a way for corporations to suck out money from weakminded people who sink more and more money into a video game. Granted not all, I would say even most, F2P players are like that, but they are who are keeping F2P games up.

 

Funny,  You can say this exact same phrase almost word for word and be talking about p2p.

Nope. In a traditional P2P, not the one's which have a cash shop and thus double dipping, you pay a small fixed amount per month and every couple of years you pay a fixed amount for an expansion. So there is no way for them to charge you more than that, which you have in so called F2P games which are often built up in a way to nickle and dime you if you want this or that item/bonus etc. 

Sure not everyone needs to pay, and thus get a less than ideal experience, but the fact that they are projecting a 2.5 billion revenue shows that a lot of people are.

If you're buying the ex pack what are you paying for all that time with the sub ? ...other than the whole weak minded...sinking money into a game ect ect thing

That's why the exact same phrase can be used word for word for both pay types. A sub + paying for content is still double dipping. they've just been doing it so long people make better excuses for it.

What you are paying for is constant small content adds and bug fixes, cheat fixes etc. Sub based MMORPGs has far more active development than one time boxed purchases of that time.

However F2P is very different, but some people just dont get it. F2P games are fundamentally designed in a way to make you pay a little bit here and a little bit there. For a P2P you pay a fixed amount of money for a fixed content where as in F2P the game is designed for you to keep paying and the more you pay the more powerful/more aestethic pleasing your character becomes as well a whole bunch of so called convenience items such as insta travel, insta rez etc.

P2P makes you pay for a game where as F2P is designed, as a game, to make you pay. There is a subtle difference with profound consequences. One is a game, the other is a slot machine/cash cow.

You don't see how you have simply rationalized this because you've been paying for expansions for so long. They take the team members - the ones that you are paying for - away from the bug fixes and content adds to make the expansion pack, funded with your money, to sell it back to you for another 40-60 USD on top of it all. 

That expansion pack usually has additional levels or new content that a 'vanilla' player doesn't have access to, so it also falls under that nasty 'buying an advantage' umbrella. 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fovoroth

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12126

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

10/16/13 7:07:27 PM#90
Originally posted by goboygo
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by goboygo
Its not free to play if they are projecting 2.5B in revenue now is it.

You are confused.

It is not free for the whales, but free for me. "Free" can apply to some.

I'm not confused at all.  I can argue that I can watch baseball games for free at Wrigley field by standing on the roof of buildings.

But narius has managed to watch it from the bleachers. First of all, get down from that roof. It's not safe up there. Second of all, if the nosebleed seats of your favorite team were free, wouldn't it be fun to see a game or two on the cheap?

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fovoroth

  Gruug

Elite Member

Joined: 4/03/08
Posts: 1172

The more you know, the more you know you don't know.

10/16/13 7:10:43 PM#91
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by DamonVile
  $31/month is higher than $15/month ( what subs are )....so if the real f2p players are in the missing markets what does that say about the argument you're trying to make here ?

That is average per paid players. There are lots who don't.

 

Anyone who wont pay isn't relevant to the point anyway.  They have no influence on the amount when you're looking at the avg paying player. Someone that spends $1 does more damage to that number than someone that spends 0.

They lower the amount the avg player spends but that isn't what's showing on that chart.

People keep saying that f2p is supported by whales but without being able to actually see the points on the graph and where they fall and what it actually looks like.All the data posted so far shows is it's people spending $30 a month. I don't really consider that a big deal, considering what some of my other forms of entertainment cost.

 

 

But wait....aren't these things FREE?  WE keep speaking about money spent yet the game companies keep saying "free". Who is kidding who here?  

Oh, and when I have FREE entertainment cost....they actually don't cost ANYONE anything.

Let's party like it is 1863!

  JasonJ

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/19/13
Posts: 414

10/16/13 7:19:41 PM#92
Originally posted by Beatnik59

A great blog by Edward Castronova on the notion that FTP=Game, and Subscription=world.

http://terranova.blogs.com/terra_nova/2012/12/the-decline-of-swtor.html

"EVE can charge subscriptions - people like to quasi-live in EVE. Nobody wants to quasi-live in SWTOR, or, it is not possible to just live there. You can't live on a race track. Race tracks are for racing. You go around a few times and quit. Why subscribe to that?"

 And in typical blog fashion, it was written by a clueless git.

SWTOR is not F2P, its freemium...and there are plenty of people that have chosen to "quasi-live" in actual F2P games. The writer is clearly limited in his knowledge of the MMO genre.

  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4656

10/16/13 7:26:38 PM#93
Originally posted by Gruug
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by DamonVile
  $31/month is higher than $15/month ( what subs are )....so if the real f2p players are in the missing markets what does that say about the argument you're trying to make here ?

That is average per paid players. There are lots who don't.

 

Anyone who wont pay isn't relevant to the point anyway.  They have no influence on the amount when you're looking at the avg paying player. Someone that spends $1 does more damage to that number than someone that spends 0.

They lower the amount the avg player spends but that isn't what's showing on that chart.

People keep saying that f2p is supported by whales but without being able to actually see the points on the graph and where they fall and what it actually looks like.All the data posted so far shows is it's people spending $30 a month. I don't really consider that a big deal, considering what some of my other forms of entertainment cost.

 

 

But wait....aren't these things FREE?  WE keep speaking about money spent yet the game companies keep saying "free". Who is kidding who here?  

Oh, and when I have FREE entertainment cost....they actually don't cost ANYONE anything.

the only person who seems to be confused here is you. Everyone else knows what the free means in free to play. go read up on it so you don't have to try and make stupid points like that again please.

People are like cats. When they die, you get a new one.

  Beatnik59

Elite Member

Joined: 11/23/05
Posts: 2222

"Playing things I shouldn''t be playing since 1977."

10/16/13 7:28:11 PM#94

Free to Play works well...for now.

I wonder how well it'll work in the future.  You have to think that these people who throw $1,000s of dollars into these things won't be all happy and smiles when their games announce a shutdown, or get changed in a way they don't like, or lose their houses because they spend the mortgage money to "keep up with the Joneses."  You wonder if they'll be so quick to jump in the next one, given their experiences with their last one.

Personally, I think F2P is just one shutdown, one scam, and one 60 Minutes expose away from cultural unacceptability, like tobacco, liquor, drugs or gambling.  When that happens (and it's not a matter of if for me, but when), these "whales" are going to get hard to come by.  Because unlike the casino whales, who are actually treated well by the casino owners, and who actually have a chance to come out of Vegas with something, the MMO FTP whale is given nothing but the boot and indifference.

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  Atis-nob

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/01/12
Posts: 31

10/17/13 4:57:29 AM#95
Originally posted by Beatnik59

Free to Play works well...for now.

I wonder how well it'll work in the future.  You have to think that these people who throw $1,000s of dollars into these things won't be all happy and smiles when their games announce a shutdown, or get changed in a way they don't like, or lose their houses because they spend the mortgage money to "keep up with the Joneses."  You wonder if they'll be so quick to jump in the next one, given their experiences with their last one.

Personally, I think F2P is just one shutdown, one scam, and one 60 Minutes expose away from cultural unacceptability, like tobacco, liquor, drugs or gambling.  When that happens (and it's not a matter of if for me, but when), these "whales" are going to get hard to come by.  Because unlike the casino whales, who are actually treated well by the casino owners, and who actually have a chance to come out of Vegas with something, the MMO FTP whale is given nothing but the boot and indifference.

Nah, they'll get free invitation (gift included!) to next game.

There are tons of smokers and drinkers who don't see themselves as culturally unacceptable. There many whales who are rich enough to not bother about losing few kilobucks. There are lotsa consumers of facebook-style pseudo-MMO who lost decent money in 5 clones of FarmVille and still keep paying. Ppl don't necessary bother enough "to get hard to come by".

Everybody heard many times that liquor is bad, still pubs are full every evening on every second street.

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Free players in F2P pay too. Basically they work as advanced NPC for whales: prey to be killed by premium sword, losers to be compared with for those who bought cute skin, grind accelerator and mount. Some players don't mind being toys for rich, others pay or create 10000th thread about bad f2p.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19506

 
OP  10/17/13 9:56:47 AM#96
Originally posted by Atis-nob

Free players in F2P pay too. Basically they work as advanced NPC for whales: prey to be killed by premium sword, losers to be compared with for those who bought cute skin, grind accelerator and mount. Some players don't mind being toys for rich, others pay or create 10000th thread about bad f2p.

Not if i play pve solo. No whales ever killed me because of that.

Now i am not opposed to the idea of being advanced NPC .. it is only fair since i got a free game, and whales pay through their nose.

However, i don't play pvp at all ... so the whales just have to do without me.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12126

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

10/17/13 10:25:27 AM#97
Originally posted by Atis-nob

Free players in F2P pay too. Basically they work as advanced NPC for whales: prey to be killed by premium sword, losers to be compared with for those who bought cute skin, grind accelerator and mount. Some players don't mind being toys for rich, others pay or create 10000th thread about bad f2p.

Of the hundred or so F2P games, can you name about a dozen or so where you can buy gear superior to what can be obtained in game? Do you realize how much of your post is simply regurgitated talking points that you have not done any research or fact checking on?

I get it, you have a hatred for people who play differently than you. Some people are just like that and I'm not about to try to sway you from your course at all. However - and this is just my advice to you as a fellow poster - your vitriol would bite better if you were actually stating something remotely based in reality. 

 

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fovoroth

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10571

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

10/17/13 10:39:08 AM#98


Originally posted by Beatnik59
Free to Play works well...for now.

I wonder how well it'll work in the future.  You have to think that these people who throw $1,000s of dollars into these things won't be all happy and smiles when their games announce a shutdown, or get changed in a way they don't like, or lose their houses because they spend the mortgage money to "keep up with the Joneses."  You wonder if they'll be so quick to jump in the next one, given their experiences with their last one.

Personally, I think F2P is just one shutdown, one scam, and one 60 Minutes expose away from cultural unacceptability, like tobacco, liquor, drugs or gambling.  When that happens (and it's not a matter of if for me, but when), these "whales" are going to get hard to come by.  Because unlike the casino whales, who are actually treated well by the casino owners, and who actually have a chance to come out of Vegas with something, the MMO FTP whale is given nothing but the boot and indifference.




This is where competition might be a good thing. It is possible to have a F2P game that is good for consumers, where they can see if they like a game, and spend money on things they like but don't need to progress. The question there is whether or not that's the way to make more money short term or long term.

I would not hold out hope for cultural unacceptability though. It's not just acceptable but expected on the mobile platform, which is probably a much larger platform than PCs and consoles combined. Those are the young people, the future gamers and the future drivers in the industry. That's also where the money is, and the industry will follow the money, regardless of opinions on the matter.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5671

10/17/13 10:51:01 AM#99
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Atis-nob

Free players in F2P pay too. Basically they work as advanced NPC for whales: prey to be killed by premium sword, losers to be compared with for those who bought cute skin, grind accelerator and mount. Some players don't mind being toys for rich, others pay or create 10000th thread about bad f2p.

Of the hundred or so F2P games, can you name about a dozen or so where you can buy gear superior to what can be obtained in game? Do you realize how much of your post is simply regurgitated talking points that you have not done any research or fact checking on?

I get it, you have a hatred for people who play differently than you. Some people are just like that and I'm not about to try to sway you from your course at all. However - and this is just my advice to you as a fellow poster - your vitriol would bite better if you were actually stating something remotely based in reality. 

"Facts" here are like Candyman. If you say it 3 times it becomes true. Of course if you posture with hatred from a soapbox you only need to say it once.

I just don't get where the hate comes from. Does someone actually wake up one day and say, "Hey I just realized I'm playing a full on pvp game where people can buy a huge advantage over me and I never realized it."

I would really love to see complete revenue metrics for games. I know there are "whales" and "freeloaders", but I have a hard time believing that 2% of the players mainly fund a game. It's just too volatile and subject to fluctuations. It makes more sense to me that there are curves of high spenders to low. I also think the shape of that curve is highly dependent on the game style, cash shop setup, and demographics. So not every game is going to be shaped the same. It would be even more interesting to see a bunch of games plotted and how their curves relate or are dissimilar. But since I have no proof or access to data I can't support my supposition.

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  User Deleted
10/17/13 11:10:50 AM#100


Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by Loktofeit

Originally posted by Atis-nob Free players in F2P pay too. Basically they work as advanced NPC for whales: prey to be killed by premium sword, losers to be compared with for those who bought cute skin, grind accelerator and mount. Some players don't mind being toys for rich, others pay or create 10000th thread about bad f2p.
Of the hundred or so F2P games, can you name about a dozen or so where you can buy gear superior to what can be obtained in game? Do you realize how much of your post is simply regurgitated talking points that you have not done any research or fact checking on? I get it, you have a hatred for people who play differently than you. Some people are just like that and I'm not about to try to sway you from your course at all. However - and this is just my advice to you as a fellow poster - your vitriol would bite better if you were actually stating something remotely based in reality. 
"Facts" here are like Candyman. If you say it 3 times it becomes true. Of course if you posture with hatred from a soapbox you only need to say it once.

I just don't get where the hate comes from. Does someone actually wake up one day and say, "Hey I just realized I'm playing a full on pvp game where people can buy a huge advantage over me and I never realized it."

I would really love to see complete revenue metrics for games. I know there are "whales" and "freeloaders", but I have a hard time believing that 2% of the players mainly fund a game. It's just too volatile and subject to fluctuations. It makes more sense to me that there are curves of high spenders to low. I also think the shape of that curve is highly dependent on the game style, cash shop setup, and demographics. So not every game is going to be shaped the same. It would be even more interesting to see a bunch of games plotted and how their curves relate or are dissimilar. But since I have no proof or access to data I can't support my supposition.



My guess would be that it is based on high turnover. That 2% of high spenders is constantly being rotated in and out. You find out about a F2P game, it hooks you one weekend and you blow 50 bucks on some stuff to make it more fun, then burnout and move on.

Maybe its like that, maybe not. Seems possible.

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