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Developers Corner 

MMORPG Game Concepts  » The market is there, why not make it?

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122 posts found
  Xthos

Elite Member

Joined: 4/18/10
Posts: 2623

10/11/13 1:43:18 AM#61
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by Antiquated
Originally posted by Xthos
Originally posted by flizzer
I have consistently mentioned these old games are still around to be played, but, not. people want "new old games" to play. 

 I guess you failed to realize, that these 'old games' were usually ruined in a lot of peoples opinions, when they tried to make them more casual.

What? You mean income > idealism, to your average corporation? That is shocking. How dare they.

We should do a million man march--oh wait, we'd have to get out of our chairs for that. Forget it.

His point was that these old games AREN'T really around anymore. I'm not sure why you even brought up the sarcasm about corporations favoring income over idealism.

I think Antiquated's point was that they aren't really around any more because the old design didn't appeal to most people, thus progressing the game in favor of continued revenue rather than letting it die a slow death in favor of idealism.

 

My point was that the game wasn't there anymore, didn't mention money, corporations or anything of the sort.  So some people on these forums like to bring it up, and call people a hypocrit for not funding the changed game...

 

Now with that said, a f2p game with 5-10% whales, having 1 million people playing it, turn that into a niche p2p mmo, and have 50,000-100,000 people playing it and you could have roughly the same income....Sure it probably won't be the next WoW.... 

 

Lastly, I could be sarcastic too and mention how the money grab always works, but it doesn't, some stuff changes and still slow dies...or quick.

 

  Xthos

Elite Member

Joined: 4/18/10
Posts: 2623

10/11/13 1:56:21 AM#62
Originally posted by Antiquated
Originally posted by Holophonist

I get his point, it's just irrelevant.

If you actually did get it, it would be relevant.

When the players demand, over and over again, a model of exclusion... they're asking for their ideal; not what's in the company's best interest.

"Why can't we make a game just for us?" ("just for us", of course, is the same as "not for them")

I NEVER demanded, asked, or wondered why, you just felt the need to go off topic....So no, it wasn't relevant to the game has changed and is not there for the usual person to say , "go play it then".  What model of exclusion is this?  I must of missed it in my post, or you are putting more words in my mouth/post....

 

I posted about this, but a small example of niche projecting as profitable is something like Camelot Unchained, it isn't my thing, but they numbered it out to how they can be 'niche' and profitable, it won't be the next WoW, but I got news for you, nothing has been, and we we are in the 100s of mmos since WoW probably.

 

Investors like the idea of being the next WoW, over being niche and profitible though.

 

 

  Edli

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/03/10
Posts: 816

10/11/13 2:29:26 AM#63
Originally posted by Zakk1011

You think people played AC and EQ1 (and were addicted to it) because "being in an online world" was novel?

Um yeah, and because back then you didn't really have much choice. If EQ1 were to be released today in the exact shape I wouldn't touch it. 

  Zakk1011

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/09/13
Posts: 14

 
OP  10/11/13 5:00:40 AM#64
In the exact state? Of course you wouldn't touch it...a lot of it would need a facelift/updating. But the core mechanics and philosophy could remain the same and a lot of people would not only enjoy it, but stay with it paying a sub FAR longer than 2 months.

Just because YOU wouldn't doesn't mean others wouldn't.
  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11845

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

10/11/13 7:27:07 AM#65
Originally posted by Xthos
Originally posted by Antiquated
Originally posted by Holophonist

I get his point, it's just irrelevant.

If you actually did get it, it would be relevant.

When the players demand, over and over again, a model of exclusion... they're asking for their ideal; not what's in the company's best interest.

"Why can't we make a game just for us?" ("just for us", of course, is the same as "not for them")

I NEVER demanded, asked, or wondered why, you just felt the need to go off topic....

The interesting mistake in your past two replies is you have falsely assumed that either you or your posts were the topic in either of the exchanges you just replied to.

  Mahavishnu

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/17/12
Posts: 333

10/11/13 7:39:38 AM#66

1. Old school MMOs have not been very successful. EQ2, Vanguard, ...

2. Even the great majority of "old school hard core" players played WoW. They complained about it all the time, but they cept on playing it.

3. The MMO market is shrinking. Facebook and multiplayer features of single player games (Battlefield, GTA5) draw away a huge amount of players.

4. This whole "old school" argument is a terrible lie. Nobody wants to farm stupid mobs for rare drops again. It is just stupid gameplay. What they really want is:

  • rush up as fast as possible to endlevel
  • get better gear and higher level than most of other players
  • boost their vanitiy because they do more damage and have more HP than anybody else (good for PvP and PvE)

Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy shit we don't need.

  Adalwulff

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/18/10
Posts: 1191

"I am not the light, or the darkness, but the twilight in between"

10/11/13 7:42:25 AM#67
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by Zakk1011

Obviously, there is a LARGE constituent of players out there that want to see the old-school style of MMORPG's brought back. 

How do you know there is a large constituency of players who want old school games?

I would say that if there was indeed a large group of players then there would be no question about making games like "old school games".

I would say that the dearth of these games points to a smaller group of people interested in these games.

Additionally, any "old school" games are probably going to come from smaller development teams who set out to specifically make these games.

You aren't going to find large development houses taking on games that are probably not going to make their money back. That's one fast way to start needing to lay people off.

 

Listening to your guild buddies or scanning websites  with a greater population of old school players isn't a good way to know what the general game audience wants.

 

Wow! You made some huge assumptions, and ignored all the forum debate over this very topic

Seriously dude, I think your in denial.

EQ1 and AC were epic MMOs, people still talk about them today, all over the net.

A game company would be smart to relaunch such an MMO

And in fact we are seeing them. Wildstar, Star Citizen and X-rebirth are all MMOs that are going back to the old school way of doing MMOs.

  Adalwulff

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/18/10
Posts: 1191

"I am not the light, or the darkness, but the twilight in between"

10/11/13 7:45:05 AM#68
Originally posted by Mahavishnu

1. Old school MMOs have not been very successful. EQ2, Vanguard, ...

2. Even the great majority of "old school hard core" players played WoW. They complained about it all the time, but they cept on playing it.

3. The MMO market is shrinking. Facebook and multiplayer features of single player games (Battlefield, GTA5) draw away a huge amount of players.

4. This whole "old school" argument is a terrible lie. Nobody wants to farm stupid mobs for rare drops again. It is just stupid gameplay. What they really want is:

  • rush up as fast as possible to endlevel
  • get better gear and higher level than most of other players
  • boost their vanitiy because they do more damage and have more HP than anybody else (good for PvP and PvE)

 

And here we go again with the huge assumptions and flat out misdirection

The OP used EQ1 and AC as his examples, but you use EQ2 and Vanguard as examples.

Those games don't even compare...lol.

EQ2 wasn't too bad, but Vanguard was an epic disaster.

I think you completely missed the boat here.....

  Holophonist

Elite Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 1997

10/11/13 7:45:06 AM#69
Originally posted by Antiquated
Originally posted by Holophonist

I get his point, it's just irrelevant.

If you actually did get it, it would be relevant.

When the players demand, over and over again, a model of exclusion... they're asking for their ideal; not what's in the company's best interest.

"Why can't we make a game just for us?" ("just for us", of course, is the same as "not for them")

No, this is still off topic. Somebody told him that if he really does enjoy those old games, then he should go play them. He pointed out (rightly so) that they don't exist in their original form, if at all.

  Nadia

Elite Member

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11244

10/11/13 7:49:08 AM#70
Originally posted by Zakk1011

WHY hasn't a publisher done this??  It seems SO LOW budget to me (relative to other titles) and people would EAT IT UP.

How successful do you think a graphically updated EQ1, with some minor gameplay tweaks/additions, would be right now?

how is that lowbudget?

 

players will be expecting POLISH and Good Graphics  -- both expensive

and content !

 

to create a low budget mmo

if a dev used HTML5 to create a browser game, like Runes of Magic,

but it had all the features of EQ1 / AC

 

would you play it?   

I'll readily admit I wouldn't - I'm not a fan of browser mmos

  User Deleted
10/11/13 7:59:20 AM#71

The problem is that people aren't interested in anything less than triple A development quality and the market isn't there for that sort of development cash, as the many promising but failed indie games have shown - if it isn't 100% amazing quality at launch its a fail.  The people voting on the EQN polls are diehard MMO followers, not the mass market they are chasing.

 

How many WoW players do you think seriously even look at sites like this or even their own forums? The hits would be much higher. But that's not how casual players operate.  They log in, have fun for an hour or two then log out.  And that's where all the money is.

 

You would be lucky to get 100k subs for a diehard game like you suggest, and that's not something that people are willing to bet triple A quality development costs on.

  steelheartx

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/08/06
Posts: 395

10/11/13 8:14:37 AM#72
Originally posted by Zakk1011

What do I need to do to get someone to make this?  

Money.  Lots and lots of money.

Looking for a family that you can game with for life? Check out Grievance at www.grievanceguild.com !

  Rusque

Elite Member

Joined: 6/08/10
Posts: 1648

10/11/13 8:22:00 AM#73
Originally posted by Zakk1011

Obviously, there is a LARGE constituent of players out there that want to see the old-school style of MMORPG's brought back.  Death penalty, limited fast travel, community/social interaction, adventure sandbox...no quest markers...

 

I'm not going to go into everything you said, everyone has their own MMO concept  and no, no one will make it for them.

 

But you say it's obvious that there's a large number of players who want X. Proof? People talked about DAOC all the time on this forum, and when Camelot Unchained showed up on kickstarter here was everyone's chance to help fund the second coming of one of their proclaimed favorite games ever.

It came right down to the wire and almost didn't get funded. Not only did it just scrape by on the funding . . . but by the end it had a fairly miniscule 14,873 backers.

Now, if you're on the forums, 15k people does indeed seem like a LARGE constituency doesn't it? If we had 15k people here clamoring for a certain type of game we'd be befuddled as to why no one is serving that market?

But if you turn around and put that 15k into a game . . . all of a sudden those numbers are tiny. A game like FFARR gets 300k concurrent players and has queues out the door, while a game that people claim everyone wants to play gets 15k supporters. Bit of a disconnect there?

 

I know this is just one example, but the burden of proof is not on me. You (and others like you) are the one's who claim that this market exists in significant numbers. Well, where is it? You want something and that's fine. I'm all for multiple market segments being serviced, but you have to show that you actually have a segment and not a couple hundred people on an internet forum making noise.

The other groups (the one's driving the games you don't like - aka the new ones) are making themselves heard with their wallets. They keep opening them and supporting these games. If you're on the forum talking about what you want, that means nothing to developers.

Want to show that there's an old school community that's ripe for the picking? Have them all sign up to the old games, repopulate Vanguard - even if you don't log in to play, just paying into it gives meaning to your claims. I know it sounds stupid to pay for something you won't use, but developers don't sit around saying, "You know, there were 32 posts on MMORPG.com today asking for an old school style MMO, let's devote the next 5+ years and millions of dollars  to making one!"

They need to know that there is some money to be made. It doesn't have to be WoW money, but it has to be enough that they can reasonably project some type of ROI on their game.

  Antiquated

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 479

10/11/13 8:27:13 AM#74
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by Antiquated
Originally posted by Holophonist

I get his point, it's just irrelevant.

If you actually did get it, it would be relevant.

When the players demand, over and over again, a model of exclusion... they're asking for their ideal; not what's in the company's best interest.

"Why can't we make a game just for us?" ("just for us", of course, is the same as "not for them")

No, this is still off topic.

I think a review of post #1 in this thread is in order.

  Theocritus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 3605

10/11/13 8:30:55 AM#75
Originally posted by DamonVile

Most of them are all talk. It's find to sit here with rose colored glasses on talking about how great EQ! was but when it comes time to put up or shut up ...well...they tend to do neither.

Wishing you could relive your first mmo love is not the same thing as someone willing to go back and do it over again...knowing what they know now. Your experiences in mmos will forever keep you from ever having that first love back again.

 

I agree...Alot of them are all talk.....THere are versions of these games out there, many free, and yet they only draw a handful of players.....If these games are so in demand wouldn't these private server type of games draw thousands?.......Theres also a newer game in alpha stages, made by former devs of EQ, that went back to old school gameplay.....WHile not everyone knows about it, there still is hardly anyone playing it.....It sounds great in theory, but one you actually start playing like that again it gets boring pretty fast......Its then that you realize that 1999 is over and done...Its fun for a few hours but not for years liek it used to be.

  Mendel

Novice Member

Joined: 7/22/11
Posts: 610

10/11/13 10:19:47 AM#76

A couple of very important points about the problems with building old-school games.

  • Games (and genres and businesses) evolve by looking forward, not backwards.  While the OP may want to relive the early days of MMORPGs, there isn't money to be made in attracting players with those longings.   Generally, people want new things; even the OP wanted EQ1 or AC with modern, updated graphics, not a remade EQ1 with retro graphics.  The industry would describe those that want that early-era feeling as a niche market.  Companies make money by expanding their product to appeal to larger market segments.  If you generate $10 million in revenue this year, you can expect to need to generate $11 - $12 million in revenue next year, just to keep up with inflation.   Catering to niche markets isn't the way to keep the business growing.  So, any company large enough to build an MMORPG is going to focus on increasing that market space, and leave the niche markets alone.
  • Products (including MMORPGs) are developed with a specific vision in place.  The business itself will have some form of business plan -- including a basic development strategy, some viable customer (market segment) identified, and some rudimentary expectations about development costs.  These factors can (and usually will) evolve as the development progresses.  The business plan allows economic projections about the product, which ultimately give the project a green or red light.
  • In addition to a business plan, a game also needs a game design plan.  A 70 page document like the OP describes does not describe the game in enough depth to build a game. There are game mechanics to describe for the game itself, and lore necessary to build the content.   Telling a programmer to build something like an inventory system without specific details will ensure that the design of the project will be uncontrolled, and therefore unpredictable.   If the programmer codes slots for a single worn armor items and, later, the armor system allows 'layers' of clothing to contribute to the overall defense (A combination of a cotton undershirt, quilted padding and a bronze breastplate would have a different protection rating than a silk undershirt, quilted padding and bronze breastplate), then the original implementation is very likely to need significant revision (rework) to deal with this concept.  The designers need the lore basics in order to develop quests with consistency.   I would barely feel comfortable defining bullet points for the game mechanics in a 70 page document, and the lore of the world would require much, much detail.
So without a major change in the marketplace (as measured by businesses), I'd say that a company large enough to produce a top-line quality MMORPG isn't likely to choose to build what is perceived to be a niche product because of the economics, leaving the niche markets to the marginal companies and independents, who by their very nature are not capable of producing the polished product desired.

Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10378

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

10/11/13 10:28:36 AM#77


Originally posted by Zakk1011

Originally posted by lizardbones Define "large" audience. That's the problem. The assumption that there's a large audience willing to pay enough money for a such-and-such type of game. The second assumption is that because the project is to develop a such-and-such type of game that it will automatically lead to success. The final assumption is that there is a group of people who want to spend five years working on something, with no guarantee of even breaking even, just because it's a such-and-such type of game.
I did have a lot of assumptions in my original post...I came looking for help, not criticism, and I didn't want to have to pull figures in order to justify my request, haha.  This was meant to be a 5 minute sit-down post...but obviously, that's not the case any more.

By "Large" I simply meant "enough to achieve profit and/or sustain revenue".  I'm not delusional with regards to the massive market that IS the MMORPG crowd, but there's more than enough people out there to make a single good niche game profitable.  Agreed?

The second assumption is because of basic business and common sense.  This game would be the only one of its type out there, essentially, so it should grab a very high percentage of the niche market it's aiming to acquire...therefore, helping its success.

The final assumption is ANYTHING in business, really.  There is no guarantee any MMO will be profitable (or any business idea).  THere is always some risk...although, what companies are doing now is taking the least risky for the highest profit.  You know what other business model does that?  Franchising.

Also, the second and third assumptions rely on the first.  There IS a market for this type of game, which kind of nullifies bringing up assumption 2+3.




What did you expect, posting on these forums? Have you read any of the threads on topics related to "old school" games? I'm not saying give up, but bring a thick skin.

Someone posted that you need lots of money. That's a good start. Raise millions of dollars. Second, put together a team of people with industry experience who have actually produced games that reached a release state. That's the second part. Ideas are worthless without people who can turn them into a reality.

That's it. That's how you get the game you are looking for. Millions of Dollars + Team of Proven Professionals = A Game. Nothing you read here is going to help you get a game started, built or finished. If you're looking for people to say, "Atta Boy!" for your game idea, you came to the wrong place.

None of your assumptions have any basis in the external world. The people who are in the industry, who have access to the "numbers" have obviously chosen to take a different approach to game development, one that may start with "old school" games, but that doesn't end there. If the market existed at a large enough scale, if it wasn't divided into smaller groups based on pointless gaming ideologies, somebody would be tapping into it.

People have asked what you based that first assumption on. It's a valid question. It's a valid question for the umpteen people who keep posting it on these forums. Where does that vital piece of information come from? If you've seen a dozen people post about it on forums, then you have a dozen people willing to buy into the idea, and that's it. Something more is needed because the industry isn't really buying into the idea, and they have a lot more information than we do.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11845

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

10/11/13 10:42:07 AM#78
Originally posted by Zakk1011

By "Large" I simply meant "enough to achieve profit and/or sustain revenue".  I'm not delusional with regards to the massive market that IS the MMORPG crowd, but there's more than enough people out there to make a single good niche game profitable.  Agreed?

Not necessarily.

Quantify the niche. Can a quality game be made within the resource and financial constraints of that audience size? Not just that audience size, but operate profitable on that percentage of that audience that will actually find and want play this niche game AND will stick around once they see what the actual final feature list is and graphics quality are. ;)

  mmoguy43

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/31/09
Posts: 2293

10/11/13 12:29:31 PM#79

A 3rd possibility is you seek and join a game project that is building a game that is somewhat similar to what you envisioned(if there is one). That will take a lot of humility and you will have to bring some actual talent to contribute to the project (not just ideaz guy). Depending on the talent of the rest of the team, you will learn a lot of it's success or failure and you don't spend a huge amount of time or money of your own, on a possibly bad idea(the value of the idea can change over time).

Welcome to Game Making: Not Easy Money

Let's build the ultimate MMO 1 feature at a time
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/398555/page/1

  Mr.Kujo

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/23/12
Posts: 359

“Discussion is impossible with someone who claims not to seek the truth, but already to possess it.”

10/11/13 12:59:04 PM#80
Originally posted by Zakk1011

So, instead of telling me why you don't think this will work...why don't we come up with a way to MAKE it work?  There's a lot of us here who want it.

What do we need to do?

The purpose of my original post was to start to develop a path towards accomplishing the goal of seeing a game like this being developed and, ultimately, successful.  Games did it back them.  They can do it now.

What are your ideas?

You can do a kickstarter. Promote your idea and wait for the "LARGE" group to donate for your cause. I hope you are prepared for disappointment, because lots of projects named "oldschool mmorpg" failed big time, and never even got close to the requested sum. It shows how "LARGE" the crowd really is. It is not that no one is trying, it just fails. Proof is already there, what more do you need? As such a crazy oldschool fan you should be fully aware of all the failed indie projects. If not, maybe you should be more dedicated, and do some research.

The reason why you do not know how to push your game to development is the same reason why you still think that this type of game would be possible to pull off - lack of knowledge about the industry.

So far in the last two years I have seen few threads like this, with few people having the same opinion like yours. I don't know how can you base on those few people, that there is a large group somewere that would support your idea, show this group. Do a legitimate survey, start kickstarter, support kickstarter projects that are already there, read more about the industry, I just mentioned few things to do, that will get you closer to your goal than writing on forums.

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