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Developers Corner 

MMORPG Game Concepts  » The market is there, why not make it?

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122 posts found
  Nevulus

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/23/06
Posts: 1286

10/10/13 9:58:26 PM#41
Originally posted by Nobles

Long time reader first time poster. I created an account just so I can reply  back as this struck a chord with me.

I agree with everything the OP stated except on being able to build the game with some programmers and artists; it's going to take a lot more then that....

Great first post, it was a well worded post that I truly agree with, but WoW was not as well polished as people might remember.

 

By today's standards, if WoW was released the way it was in the 90s, this forum would be filled with "omg servers will be dead after the first free month' posts and the constant doomsayers that allowed to post unchecked.

 

Your Diablo3/PoE comparison is dead on, and your example of GTA as a successful sandbox is so true that most people around these forums would rather pretend that game never existed in order to protect their "sandboxes suck" ideology.

 

Thank you for the great read.

  Ender4

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/18/08
Posts: 2097

10/10/13 10:08:17 PM#42


I really feel and hope that we will experience a Diablo 3 / Path of exile scenario. Diablo 3 came out with incredible polish and just a generally fun game (for short period) but it's mechanics, the auction house completely ruined it and along came a much smaller lower budget game (Path of Exile) with far superior game play and perhaps shifted the Action RPG culture / expectations.

This struck a chord with me. D3 is still way more popular than PoE ever will be and PoE suffers from massive technical issues. The desync issues, the horrible mob AI etc. PoE is a great example of how a smaller company can aim their game at a niche market and find success, but it is a bad example to try to say it is going to change the genre. The AH was also never the issue with D3, the horrible itemization was the issue but that is probably a discussion for another day.

The issue with comparing this to an MMORPG is that if PoE were a MMORPG it would have completely flopped. Way too many technical issues in that game and way too many unfriendly design choices. The costs of designing an MMORPG makes it really hard to justify taking this risk for most companies.

  NagelRitter

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/18/13
Posts: 613

10/10/13 10:11:16 PM#43
Because investors are stupid and it's hard to convince one to fund a project that's more creative than: "Clone this super popular thing over here".

Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW
Currently playing: GW2, EVE
Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10942

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

10/10/13 10:20:59 PM#44

Define "large" audience.

That's the problem. The assumption that there's a large audience willing to pay enough money for a such-and-such type of game.

The second assumption is that because the project is to develop a such-and-such type of game that it will automatically lead to success.

The final assumption is that there is a group of people who want to spend five years working on something, with no guarantee of even breaking even, just because it's a such-and-such type of game.

I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  Loktofeit

Novice Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12401

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

10/10/13 11:03:01 PM#45
Originally posted by Zakk1011

Obviously, there is a LARGE constituent of players out there that want to see the old-school style of MMORPG's brought back.  Death penalty, limited fast travel, community/social interaction, adventure sandbox...no quest markers...

Essentially, an updated rehashed version of EQ1 or Asheron's Call...

WHY hasn't a publisher done this??

Since devs are greedy and lazy, I'm quite sure that the minute you bring them your data supporting that they will jump all over it as they will now have concrete proof there's money to be made there.

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Loktofeit

Novice Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12401

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

10/10/13 11:05:56 PM#46
Originally posted by Nevulus

Your Diablo3/PoE comparison is dead on, and your example of GTA as a successful sandbox is so true that most people around these forums would rather pretend that game never existed in order to protect their "sandboxes suck" ideology.

I've been away for about a week, so maybe there was a cataclysmic shift in thinking here while I was gone, but last I left I distinctly remember "sandboxes suck" NOT being the general consensus in this crowd.

 

Did I miss a memo?

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Morovanator

Novice Member

Joined: 12/08/09
Posts: 25

10/10/13 11:10:40 PM#47

http://www.asheronscall.com/en

 

It still exists, and I got an e-mail today saying that AC2 HAS RETURNED and is in free beta for paid AC subs.

  Antiquated

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 479

10/10/13 11:11:47 PM#48
Originally posted by Xthos
Originally posted by flizzer
I have consistently mentioned these old games are still around to be played, but, not. people want "new old games" to play. 

 I guess you failed to realize, that these 'old games' were usually ruined in a lot of peoples opinions, when they tried to make them more casual.

What? You mean income > idealism, to your average corporation? That is shocking. How dare they.

We should do a million man march--oh wait, we'd have to get out of our chairs for that. Forget it.

  Holophonist

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2035

10/10/13 11:16:36 PM#49
Originally posted by Antiquated
Originally posted by Xthos
Originally posted by flizzer
I have consistently mentioned these old games are still around to be played, but, not. people want "new old games" to play. 

 I guess you failed to realize, that these 'old games' were usually ruined in a lot of peoples opinions, when they tried to make them more casual.

What? You mean income > idealism, to your average corporation? That is shocking. How dare they.

We should do a million man march--oh wait, we'd have to get out of our chairs for that. Forget it.

His point was that these old games AREN'T really around anymore. I'm not sure why you even brought up the sarcasm about corporations favoring income over idealism.

  Loktofeit

Novice Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12401

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

10/10/13 11:34:27 PM#50
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by Antiquated
Originally posted by Xthos
Originally posted by flizzer
I have consistently mentioned these old games are still around to be played, but, not. people want "new old games" to play. 

 I guess you failed to realize, that these 'old games' were usually ruined in a lot of peoples opinions, when they tried to make them more casual.

What? You mean income > idealism, to your average corporation? That is shocking. How dare they.

We should do a million man march--oh wait, we'd have to get out of our chairs for that. Forget it.

His point was that these old games AREN'T really around anymore. I'm not sure why you even brought up the sarcasm about corporations favoring income over idealism.

I think Antiquated's point was that they aren't really around any more because the old design didn't appeal to most people, thus progressing the game in favor of continued revenue rather than letting it die a slow death in favor of idealism.

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  RebelScum99

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/26/12
Posts: 1127

10/10/13 11:36:02 PM#51

So, you're saying there is a market for dated MMOs that are exceedingly awkward, tedious, and frustrating for players?  There's a reason the mmorpg was strictly a niche genre back when EQ1 was popular.  Not sure how many people you think would be willing to shell out money for that kind of a headache again, but I assure you it's not enough to keep the developers happy. 

Please note that I'm not saying MMOs shouldn't have some difficulty attached to them.  I do believe the type of games we've been getting lately have been far too easy-mode.  And I'm not saying that a game with SOME sandbox elements wouldn't have a chance of being successful, but I can guarantee that games that are difficult and tedious for the sake of being difficult and tedious wouldn't do very well, nice graphics or not.  

 

 

  Ender4

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/18/08
Posts: 2097

10/10/13 11:38:28 PM#52


There's a reason the mmorpg was strictly a niche genre back when EQ1 was popular

Yeah it was because there were only a few players who had the rigs to run a graphical MMORPG. I mean any other opinion you have is useless as it was a completely new genre at that point and the choices they made had nothing to do with how many people tried it.

  Holophonist

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2035

10/10/13 11:44:14 PM#53
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by Antiquated
Originally posted by Xthos
Originally posted by flizzer
I have consistently mentioned these old games are still around to be played, but, not. people want "new old games" to play. 

 I guess you failed to realize, that these 'old games' were usually ruined in a lot of peoples opinions, when they tried to make them more casual.

What? You mean income > idealism, to your average corporation? That is shocking. How dare they.

We should do a million man march--oh wait, we'd have to get out of our chairs for that. Forget it.

His point was that these old games AREN'T really around anymore. I'm not sure why you even brought up the sarcasm about corporations favoring income over idealism.

I think Antiquated's point was that they aren't really around any more because the old design didn't appeal to most people, thus progressing the game in favor of continued revenue rather than letting it die a slow death in favor of idealism.

I get his point, it's just irrelevant. It doesn't help that he was being sarcastic while talking about something unrelated to what he was responding to.

  Zzad

Elite Member

Joined: 2/14/11
Posts: 1323

10/10/13 11:56:30 PM#54
Originally posted by Zakk1011

Obviously, there is a LARGE constituent of players out there that want to see the old-school style of MMORPG's brought back.  Death penalty, limited fast travel, community/social interaction, adventure sandbox...no quest markers...

Essentially, an updated rehashed version of EQ1 or Asheron's Call...

WHY hasn't a publisher done this??  It seems SO LOW budget to me (relative to other titles) and people would EAT IT UP.  Sure, they wouldn't attract the masses, but the fact that they don't have to reinvent the wheel allows them to save a lot of money on production costs and, therefore, have a MUCH higher profit margin from attracting the hundreds of thousands of players (rather than millions).

How successful do you think a graphically updated EQ1, with some minor gameplay tweaks/additions, would be right now?

 

....

 

I have about 70 pages of written material outlining an entire MMORPG - classes, races, world layout, combat mechanics, skill system, advancement system, some lore (need to finish itemization and quest scripts)....

 

What do I need to do to get someone to make this?  Seriously.  I'm basically handing over a complete game concept saying "Produce this game, put it on the shelves, and make money".  Is nobody out there interested?  Does nobody out there share the passion for recreating those awesome game experiences?

Just wondering..... How do you feel about "RIFT"?

Seems to me like everything you are looking for.... +plus.

Best "talent trees" on the market since 2 years ago? yeah it´s gone FTP but still the best conversion to FTP ¡¡¡EVER!!!!

I know you can buy Gear for real cash & that can be a turn OFF.... :/

but the benefits of its paying model it´s just too good & worth that "suffering"..... in my opinion.

Not just my kind of game....played it for over 6 months....but it felt too old school for me...pure gear grinding to be able to progress in content!!! (HATE THAT!) it just disbanded comunity...

gear Score & Trinity,and nothing else but a frikking Tank & healer & 3 whatever more....

I was pretty tired of that....

at least RIFT has flexible classes, i must admit...

and amazing dinamic events like the new Gen is demanding....

You should try it out ;)

  neorandom

Novice Member

Joined: 1/15/08
Posts: 1753

10/11/13 12:17:02 AM#55
Originally posted by Zakk1011

Obviously, there is a LARGE constituent of players out there that want to see the old-school style of MMORPG's brought back.  Death penalty, limited fast travel, community/social interaction, adventure sandbox...no quest markers...

Essentially, an updated rehashed version of EQ1 or Asheron's Call...

WHY hasn't a publisher done this??  It seems SO LOW budget to me (relative to other titles) and people would EAT IT UP.  Sure, they wouldn't attract the masses, but the fact that they don't have to reinvent the wheel allows them to save a lot of money on production costs and, therefore, have a MUCH higher profit margin from attracting the hundreds of thousands of players (rather than millions).

How successful do you think a graphically updated EQ1, with some minor gameplay tweaks/additions, would be right now?

 

....

 

I have about 70 pages of written material outlining an entire MMORPG - classes, races, world layout, combat mechanics, skill system, advancement system, some lore (need to finish itemization and quest scripts)....

 

What do I need to do to get someone to make this?  Seriously.  I'm basically handing over a complete game concept saying "Produce this game, put it on the shelves, and make money".  Is nobody out there interested?  Does nobody out there share the passion for recreating those awesome game experiences?

get a group of people that like your concept book, set up a kickstarter, if you get the funding hire an Indie developer to code/produce on behalf of your group.  between a good kickstarter and sales/subs later, if your game is good itll be good.

  Zakk1011

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/09/13
Posts: 14

 
OP  10/11/13 1:13:09 AM#56

Originally posted by RebelScum99

So, you're saying there is a market for dated MMOs that are exceedingly awkward, tedious, and frustrating for players?  

No.  There is a market for updated MMORPGs that provide more depth and challenge than the games that typically come out.

Originally posted by Zzad

Just wondering..... How do you feel about "RIFT"?

I enjoyed RIFT...for about 2 months.  It is not an old-school game, though.  They had certain elements that were slightly different than the standard today, but they implemented them ineffectively and with a definite lack of depth compared to what I'm talking about.

Originally posted by neorandom

get a group of people that like your concept book, set up a kickstarter, if you get the funding hire an Indie developer to code/produce on behalf of your group.  between a good kickstarter and sales/subs later, if your game is good itll be good.


I'm going to look into Kickstarter.  Basically, put the idea on the site, get funding for it, then take that funding and idea to a Publisher and say "Here's the money, make this!"

Hmm.  Where there's a will there's a way.  I expect all of you to contribute to the fund!!! ;-)

  Zakk1011

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/09/13
Posts: 14

 
OP  10/11/13 1:24:43 AM#57
Originally posted by lizardbones

Define "large" audience.

That's the problem. The assumption that there's a large audience willing to pay enough money for a such-and-such type of game.

The second assumption is that because the project is to develop a such-and-such type of game that it will automatically lead to success.

The final assumption is that there is a group of people who want to spend five years working on something, with no guarantee of even breaking even, just because it's a such-and-such type of game.

I did have a lot of assumptions in my original post...I came looking for help, not criticism, and I didn't want to have to pull figures in order to justify my request, haha.  This was meant to be a 5 minute sit-down post...but obviously, that's not the case any more.

By "Large" I simply meant "enough to achieve profit and/or sustain revenue".  I'm not delusional with regards to the massive market that IS the MMORPG crowd, but there's more than enough people out there to make a single good niche game profitable.  Agreed?

The second assumption is because of basic business and common sense.  This game would be the only one of its type out there, essentially, so it should grab a very high percentage of the niche market it's aiming to acquire...therefore, helping its success.

The final assumption is ANYTHING in business, really.  There is no guarantee any MMO will be profitable (or any business idea).  THere is always some risk...although, what companies are doing now is taking the least risky for the highest profit.  You know what other business model does that?  Franchising.

Also, the second and third assumptions rely on the first.  There IS a market for this type of game, which kind of nullifies bringing up assumption 2+3.

  corpusc

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 1378

CHATTANOOGAN

contact me if you are seriously interested in
* C#
* making an old schoolish FPS

10/11/13 1:33:42 AM#58
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by Xthos
Originally posted by DamonVile

Most of them are all talk. It's find to sit here with rose colored glasses on talking about how great EQ! was but when it comes time to put up or shut up ...well...they tend to do neither.

Wishing you could relive your first mmo love is not the same thing as someone willing to go back and do it over again...knowing what they know now. Your experiences in mmos will forever keep you from ever having that first love back again.

 First love, maybe not, but a game you love, I disagree.  I loved UO and Vanguard many years later.  I had a new high end computer, so I wasn't hit with the problems as bad as most people, which helped make it basically an abandoned game.  I really liked TSW, which I think is odd for me, but ran out of content, and didn't find it too set up for continual gameplay without a 'end', like EQ/UO and other titles.

 

I didn't say you can't ever love another mmo, I said you can't have it like it was your first time.... and the TSW is hardly an old school mmo. Millions of people love playing their mmo now. That doesn't mean they want EQ1 back with updated graphics.

This is just something you guys say for kind of no reason. The reason a lot of us haven't recaptured this feeling in MMOs is because there really haven't been any reasonable candidates. Case in point: I have similar feelings about single player games and I absolutely have recaptured those feelings with games like demon souls and dark souls.

 

and i recaptured my brief EQ1 addiction 11 years later when they opened one of the later progression servers.

while there is some basis in reality for the rose-tinted glasses theory, it can oftentimes be complete horse crap too.

because not EVERYone is irrational.

The End
---------------------------
i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects

  Antiquated

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 479

10/11/13 1:49:18 AM#59
Originally posted by Holophonist

I get his point, it's just irrelevant.

If you actually did get it, it would be relevant.

When the players demand, over and over again, a model of exclusion... they're asking for their ideal; not what's in the company's best interest.

"Why can't we make a game just for us?" ("just for us", of course, is the same as "not for them")

  Xthos

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/18/10
Posts: 2651

10/11/13 2:27:17 AM#60
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by Xthos
Originally posted by DamonVile

Most of them are all talk. It's find to sit here with rose colored glasses on talking about how great EQ! was but when it comes time to put up or shut up ...well...they tend to do neither.

Wishing you could relive your first mmo love is not the same thing as someone willing to go back and do it over again...knowing what they know now. Your experiences in mmos will forever keep you from ever having that first love back again.

 First love, maybe not, but a game you love, I disagree.  I loved UO and Vanguard many years later.  I had a new high end computer, so I wasn't hit with the problems as bad as most people, which helped make it basically an abandoned game.  I really liked TSW, which I think is odd for me, but ran out of content, and didn't find it too set up for continual gameplay without a 'end', like EQ/UO and other titles.

 

I didn't say you can't ever love another mmo, I said you can't have it like it was your first time.... and the TSW is hardly an old school mmo. Millions of people love playing their mmo now. That doesn't mean they want EQ1 back with updated graphics.

I mentioned TSW, as even a old school player can like certain newer mmos...I even said first love maybe not.  I think the amount of people that 'love' their newer mmos is lessening, and more of a play and hop thing.  I do not see as much play and stay.

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