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  aspekx

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/24/05
Posts: 2193

 
OP  10/08/13 2:10:35 AM#81
Originally posted by Magiknight
Even if I do have more trouble adapting to change as I get older that doesn't change the fact that the games have changed. Now they are shallower, emptier, shorter, easier, quicker....

well, as i said at the first, i certainly do not think that neurology is the sole issue here. the games have changed. i just realized that there might another non-game issue going on as well.

"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse

  daltanious

Elite Member

Joined: 4/19/08
Posts: 1754

10/08/13 2:16:14 AM#82
Originally posted by Magiknight
Even if I do have more trouble adapting to change as I get older that doesn't change the fact that the games have changed. Now they are shallower, emptier, shorter, easier, quicker....

Actually games are BETTER then ever. Yes, yes, ... did not like all changes to all games I like to play ... BUT for sure there were MORE good changes then bad one.

And yes, I have kind'a nostalgic memories to my first car .... but, no, thank, would never change my current car for old one even if somebody would still be making same cars.

Have good memories to time have spent playing Pacman ... but no, thanks. Will not play again and Pacman IS NOT better then nowadays games.

  FinalFikus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 910

"We're up all night to get lucky"

10/08/13 2:40:34 AM#83

If new games are better, could you guys please give us examples. If it was simple nostalgia and selective memories, surely you could tell us what is better about new games, since we are incapable of recognizing change for the better.

They offer more convenience and less artificial timesinks. But that doesn't make a game good or bad by itself. If we're so blind it must be  easy to point to example after example of newer games being as good if not better than games that came a decade before them. Side by side comparisons should show it.

"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5233

10/08/13 2:52:09 AM#84

This nostalgia argument is getting old, so old it brings a tear to my eye reminiscing about the first time I heard it.

If this argument was true people would not change. Everyone would be supporting the same political party, playing the same sports, like all the same genres in entertainment, same authors and same food. Is this the case for any poster here?

Blaming inability to change is just an excuse to dismiss the issues that are being raised. You will find this argument is used at work, in politics, in the entertainment industry, used everywhere in fact. If you have any objections to the current programme you are being old fashioned etc.

More sophisticated, in depth entertainment has been replaced by a dumbed down crowd pleaser since time immemorial. So why does anyone think this could not happen to MMOs or gaming?

The first huge crowd drawer in ancient Rome was the theatre. Brought in from the Greeks it was a huge hit, people would flock to the amphitheatres to see the plays. Historical plays led to spectacle which eventually became gladiatorial contests. The amphitheatres on which had been played some of the greatest works every written became the circuses of Rome. Theatre faded away becoming a literary medium, from then on only bread and circuses would do!

Dumbing down for the masses is not new, but if the concept is new to you get used to it, it is rather in vogue.

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15536

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

10/08/13 2:53:34 AM#85
Originally posted by FinalFikus

If new games are better, could you guys please give us examples. If it was simple nostalgia and selective memories, surely you could tell us what is better about new games, since we are incapable of recognizing change for the better.

They offer more convenience and less artificial timesinks. But that doesn't make a game good or bad by itself. If we're so blind it must be  easy to point to example after example of newer games being as good if not better than games that came a decade before them. Side by side comparisons should show it.

What you're asking for would be like asking fans of 70's rock and fans 90's rock for definitive reasons why their chosen sound is better. It's just not measurable in a fact based way. It's too subjective a question, as it all boils down to what an individual prefers. There's no fact about it.

The only definitive thing to define is a comprehensive list of what each design is focused on, perceived strengths and weaknesses. IE SWG focused on interdependent community play. SWTOR focused on story driven bioware style roleplaying. What's better would depend on who likes what or prefers what, the "better" part remains a subjective opinion.

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  xxtriadxx

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/04/10
Posts: 156

10/08/13 2:58:22 AM#86
Originally posted by Magiknight
Even if I do have more trouble adapting to change as I get older that doesn't change the fact that the games have changed. Now they are shallower, emptier, shorter, easier, quicker....
  FinalFikus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 910

"We're up all night to get lucky"

10/08/13 3:24:46 AM#87
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by FinalFikus

If new games are better, could you guys please give us examples. If it was simple nostalgia and selective memories, surely you could tell us what is better about new games, since we are incapable of recognizing change for the better.

They offer more convenience and less artificial timesinks. But that doesn't make a game good or bad by itself. If we're so blind it must be  easy to point to example after example of newer games being as good if not better than games that came a decade before them. Side by side comparisons should show it.

What you're asking for would be like asking fans of 70's rock and fans 90's rock for definitive reasons why their chosen sound is better. It's just not measurable in a fact based way. It's too subjective a question, as it all boils down to what an individual prefers. There's no fact about it.

The only definitive thing to define is a comprehensive list of what each design is focused on, perceived strengths and weaknesses. IE SWG focused on interdependent community play. SWTOR focused on story driven bioware style roleplaying. What's better would depend on who likes what or prefers what, the "better" part remains a subjective opinion.

Really? So you don't have any examples in other words. 70s rock isn't an argument. Please stop it.

I listed the example of the space game in the old starwars and the space game in the new one.

I listed the crafting system of the old starwars to the new one.

In warcraft when you hit the button, the skill fires instantly. That is better than any of the old games and is so vital with having your avatar be an extension of yourself. No wonder WOW took off.  It was clearly better at combat reaction time. But Im looking for others opinions not my own of what new games do better. I don't know if wow is a new game.

2 quick examples of how my opinion was formed. And one example of what im looking for.

Readers should be able to decide for themselves what is better for them personally.  All im asking for is opinions.

 

 

 

 

"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  PandaEQN

Novice Member

Joined: 4/15/13
Posts: 3

10/08/13 3:32:29 AM#88
It's called immersion. And it's all THIS guys fault.
  emperorwings

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/25/06
Posts: 1344

10/08/13 3:37:22 AM#89
The games are the same except for the time factor which has been reduced and the random people you will probably never see again you sometimes get placed with. So, the older games had community and was slower paced. It meant more when you progressed back then.

This isn't a signature, you just think it is.

  FinalFikus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 910

"We're up all night to get lucky"

10/08/13 3:43:13 AM#90
Originally posted by PandaEQN
It's called immersion. And it's all THIS guys fault.

Immersion is king, yes indeed.

Doesn't Mr Kern repeat what people in this thread have been saying? Doesn't make him right, but do people disagree with him?

 

"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  daltanious

Elite Member

Joined: 4/19/08
Posts: 1754

10/08/13 3:56:52 AM#91
Originally posted by FinalFikus

If new games are better, could you guys please give us examples. If it was simple nostalgia and selective memories, surely you could tell us what is better about new games, since we are incapable of recognizing change for the better.

They offer more convenience and less artificial timesinks. But that doesn't make a game good or bad by itself. If we're so blind it must be  easy to point to example after example of newer games being as good if not better than games that came a decade before them. Side by side comparisons should show it.

First would be problem to define WHICH games exactly are "NEW" and which "OLD". Can you specify some examples so I can compare?

But in general (and depending on game of course, not ALL "new" games are better): better physics, better and more fun quests, incredibly fun spells or abilities where one must execute in proper order and pay attention to get desired maximized effect, great scenery, moving avatars with mouse instead of WASDF (wondering how I was able for years to play with that horror), .... Best so far Wow, Swtor, .... ahm, ok, then CO (which is unfortunately very shallow even if fun for fast paced combat), TSW, War, Aoc, EQ2, ...

  Quirhid

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5520

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

10/08/13 4:25:14 AM#92
Originally posted by FinalFikus
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by FinalFikus

If new games are better, could you guys please give us examples. If it was simple nostalgia and selective memories, surely you could tell us what is better about new games, since we are incapable of recognizing change for the better.

They offer more convenience and less artificial timesinks. But that doesn't make a game good or bad by itself. If we're so blind it must be  easy to point to example after example of newer games being as good if not better than games that came a decade before them. Side by side comparisons should show it.

What you're asking for would be like asking fans of 70's rock and fans 90's rock for definitive reasons why their chosen sound is better. It's just not measurable in a fact based way. It's too subjective a question, as it all boils down to what an individual prefers. There's no fact about it.

The only definitive thing to define is a comprehensive list of what each design is focused on, perceived strengths and weaknesses. IE SWG focused on interdependent community play. SWTOR focused on story driven bioware style roleplaying. What's better would depend on who likes what or prefers what, the "better" part remains a subjective opinion.

Really? So you don't have any examples in other words. 70s rock isn't an argument. Please stop it.

I listed the example of the space game in the old starwars and the space game in the new one.

I listed the crafting system of the old starwars to the new one.

In warcraft when you hit the button, the skill fires instantly. That is better than any of the old games and is so vital with having your avatar be an extension of yourself. No wonder WOW took off.  It was clearly better at combat reaction time. But Im looking for others opinions not my own of what new games do better. I don't know if wow is a new game.

2 quick examples of how my opinion was formed. And one example of what im looking for.

Readers should be able to decide for themselves what is better for them personally.  All im asking for is opinions.

No, Distopia is right. Ultimately, the answer is subjective.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  FinalFikus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 910

"We're up all night to get lucky"

10/08/13 4:36:17 AM#93
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by FinalFikus
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by FinalFikus

If new games are better, could you guys please give us examples. If it was simple nostalgia and selective memories, surely you could tell us what is better about new games, since we are incapable of recognizing change for the better.

They offer more convenience and less artificial timesinks. But that doesn't make a game good or bad by itself. If we're so blind it must be  easy to point to example after example of newer games being as good if not better than games that came a decade before them. Side by side comparisons should show it.

What you're asking for would be like asking fans of 70's rock and fans 90's rock for definitive reasons why their chosen sound is better. It's just not measurable in a fact based way. It's too subjective a question, as it all boils down to what an individual prefers. There's no fact about it.

The only definitive thing to define is a comprehensive list of what each design is focused on, perceived strengths and weaknesses. IE SWG focused on interdependent community play. SWTOR focused on story driven bioware style roleplaying. What's better would depend on who likes what or prefers what, the "better" part remains a subjective opinion.

Really? So you don't have any examples in other words. 70s rock isn't an argument. Please stop it.

I listed the example of the space game in the old starwars and the space game in the new one.

I listed the crafting system of the old starwars to the new one.

In warcraft when you hit the button, the skill fires instantly. That is better than any of the old games and is so vital with having your avatar be an extension of yourself. No wonder WOW took off.  It was clearly better at combat reaction time. But Im looking for others opinions not my own of what new games do better. I don't know if wow is a new game.

2 quick examples of how my opinion was formed. And one example of what im looking for.

Readers should be able to decide for themselves what is better for them personally.  All im asking for is opinions.

No, Distopia is right. Ultimately, the answer is subjective.

Ultimately, no shit.

Did you read where I said I was looking for opinions? Did you choose to ignore that part because "ultimately" it's subjective. I guess you could say a 5 year old on guitar hero is better than Clapton too. But the readers are not so damn dumb that they cant make up their own minds. So let them. Lets hear the examples. I know it subjective.

 

Is it possible to give a direct answer? Geez.

BTW I know its just opinions. OK? Its subjective. We knew that on page 1. Why respond at all?

"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  FinalFikus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 910

"We're up all night to get lucky"

10/08/13 4:44:07 AM#94
Originally posted by daltanious
Originally posted by FinalFikus

If new games are better, could you guys please give us examples. If it was simple nostalgia and selective memories, surely you could tell us what is better about new games, since we are incapable of recognizing change for the better.

They offer more convenience and less artificial timesinks. But that doesn't make a game good or bad by itself. If we're so blind it must be  easy to point to example after example of newer games being as good if not better than games that came a decade before them. Side by side comparisons should show it.

First would be problem to define WHICH games exactly are "NEW" and which "OLD". Can you specify some examples so I can compare?

But in general (and depending on game of course, not ALL "new" games are better): better physics, better and more fun quests, incredibly fun spells or abilities where one must execute in proper order and pay attention to get desired maximized effect, great scenery, moving avatars with mouse instead of WASDF (wondering how I was able for years to play with that horror), .... Best so far Wow, Swtor, .... ahm, ok, then CO (which is unfortunately very shallow even if fun for fast paced combat), TSW, War, Aoc, EQ2, ...

Geez, ok after 2005 is new. Is that specific enough? How about after june 18 2005 @ 11:45 am is new.

Examples from actual gameplay that influenced your opinion. Moving with a mouse only was possible in old games.

I said wow blows the older games away when it come to skills firing immediately. Lotro does music better than UO but falls short compared to swg. those are examples of my opinions.

"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  Gaia_Hunter

Elite Member

Joined: 5/04/12
Posts: 2590

10/08/13 4:48:20 AM#95
Older games seems better because you aren't playing them. Once you do, they don't.

Currently playing: GW2
Cooperative (semi cooperative)board games you should check: Pandemic, Sentinels of the Multiverse, Eldritch Horror, Descent 2.0,Level 7 Omega Protocol, Last Night on Earth

  Quirhid

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5520

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

10/08/13 4:58:33 AM#96
Originally posted by FinalFikus
Originally posted by Quirhid
 

Ultimately, no shit.

Did you read where I said I was looking for opinions? Did you choose to ignore that part because "ultimately" it's subjective. I guess you could say a 5 year old on guitar hero is better than Clapton too. But the readers are not so damn dumb that they cant make up their own minds. So let them. Lets hear the examples. I know it subjective.

 

Is it possible to give a direct answer? Geez.

BTW I know its just opinions. OK? Its subjective. We knew that on page 1. Why respond at all?

Because in the end no matter how much you try to quantify and rationalize your choices, people will make up their own mind.

There are a ton of real life examples where quantifying your choices leads nowhere. Do you honestly think the one with the fastest response time, the greatest processing power and the longest list of features comes always on top?

Some products may simply be holistically better or hit the right spot.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Quirhid

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5520

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

10/08/13 5:00:02 AM#97
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
Older games seems better because you aren't playing them. Once you do, they don't.

Yup.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  FinalFikus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 910

"We're up all night to get lucky"

10/08/13 5:32:59 AM#98
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by FinalFikus
Originally posted by Quirhid
 

Ultimately, no shit.

Did you read where I said I was looking for opinions? Did you choose to ignore that part because "ultimately" it's subjective. I guess you could say a 5 year old on guitar hero is better than Clapton too. But the readers are not so damn dumb that they cant make up their own minds. So let them. Lets hear the examples. I know it subjective.

 

Is it possible to give a direct answer? Geez.

BTW I know its just opinions. OK? Its subjective. We knew that on page 1. Why respond at all?

Because in the end no matter how much you try to quantify and rationalize your choices, people will make up their own mind.

There are a ton of real life examples where quantifying your choices leads nowhere. Do you honestly think the one with the fastest response time, the greatest processing power and the longest list of features comes always on top?

Some products may simply be holistically better or hit the right spot.

Again, no shit. If it's so pointless, don't respond. I asked a simple question. The answer is simple to give. Just an opinion. If you don't want to join the conversation, why butt in?

You don't have any examples. See, easy.

"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  FinalFikus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 910

"We're up all night to get lucky"

10/08/13 5:38:32 AM#99
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by Gaia_Hunter
Older games seems better because you aren't playing them. Once you do, they don't.

Yup.

 

Yup. That's why im not playing.

"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  Quirhid

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5520

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

10/08/13 5:44:25 AM#100
Originally posted by FinalFikus
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by FinalFikus
Originally posted by Quirhid
 

Ultimately, no shit.

Did you read where I said I was looking for opinions? Did you choose to ignore that part because "ultimately" it's subjective. I guess you could say a 5 year old on guitar hero is better than Clapton too. But the readers are not so damn dumb that they cant make up their own minds. So let them. Lets hear the examples. I know it subjective.

 

Is it possible to give a direct answer? Geez.

BTW I know its just opinions. OK? Its subjective. We knew that on page 1. Why respond at all?

Because in the end no matter how much you try to quantify and rationalize your choices, people will make up their own mind.

There are a ton of real life examples where quantifying your choices leads nowhere. Do you honestly think the one with the fastest response time, the greatest processing power and the longest list of features comes always on top?

Some products may simply be holistically better or hit the right spot.

Again, no shit. If it's so pointless, don't respond. I asked a simple question. The answer is simple to give. Just an opinion. If you don't want to join the conversation, why butt in?

You don't have any examples. See, easy.

If you expect only the people who don't think it's pointless to reply, how will you know if it is pointless or not?

If you started a discussion about how the universe is either geo- or heliocentric, should I refrain from pointing out that both are wrong?

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

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