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  Holophonist

Elite Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 1997

10/07/13 6:12:33 PM#41
Originally posted by Antiquated
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Antiquated

OP Posits.

Responses can be paraphrased "Old games were just better 'cause they were."

Unassailable position, of course, because qualitative judgements are after all judgements.

"Why are red cars better?"

"I said so."

"Well, ok then. For you, they are indeed."

 

The problem becomes escaping from the corner you have painted yourself into, should they stop manufacturing red paint. That too is a purely personal problem.

Except you can easily quantify why they were different (better is a subjective term) and those difference are why I prefer them to more modern titles.

Now, depending on your tastes you may prefer newer designs to older, but there is a clear reason why today's titles might not be a person's cup of tea, but their lack of ability to change (not willingness) really has nothing to do with it.

But that won't save you when they're no longer manufacturing cars with red paint.

No one is making games like 2000 any more. If you want to, you have no choice except to play the originals.

If the original (also) aren't good enough, for whatever reason...well, you can complain ineffectually, I guess.

I'm having trouble making sense of either of your points.

 

You can absolutely have a discussion about what type of game is better as long as you agree on what makes a game "better." If you think depth, and player retention are indicative of a good game, then you can have a discussion/debate about how one game is better than the other. It's not just "I think this game is better just because." Too many people make the mistake of saying that just because there are subjective elements at play, that means anybody's opinion is as good as anybody else's and you can't discuss it in an objective way. That's just false. 

 

Also, just because they're not currently making games that resemble the oldschool games we claim to miss doesn't mean that they won't in the future. In fact, it seems to me that there's a relatively large sandbox resurgence on the horizon.

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5510

10/07/13 6:19:58 PM#42
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by Antiquated
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Antiquated

OP Posits.

Responses can be paraphrased "Old games were just better 'cause they were."

Unassailable position, of course, because qualitative judgements are after all judgements.

"Why are red cars better?"

"I said so."

"Well, ok then. For you, they are indeed."

The problem becomes escaping from the corner you have painted yourself into, should they stop manufacturing red paint. That too is a purely personal problem.

Except you can easily quantify why they were different (better is a subjective term) and those difference are why I prefer them to more modern titles.

Now, depending on your tastes you may prefer newer designs to older, but there is a clear reason why today's titles might not be a person's cup of tea, but their lack of ability to change (not willingness) really has nothing to do with it.

But that won't save you when they're no longer manufacturing cars with red paint.

No one is making games like 2000 any more. If you want to, you have no choice except to play the originals.

If the original (also) aren't good enough, for whatever reason...well, you can complain ineffectually, I guess.

I'm having trouble making sense of either of your points.

You can absolutely have a discussion about what type of game is better as long as you agree on what makes a game "better." If you think depth, and player retention are indicative of a good game, then you can have a discussion/debate about how one game is better than the other. It's not just "I think this game is better just because." Too many people make the mistake of saying that just because there are subjective elements at play, that means anybody's opinion is as good as anybody else's and you can't discuss it in an objective way. That's just false. 

Also, just because they're not currently making games that resemble the oldschool games we claim to miss doesn't mean that they won't in the future. In fact, it seems to me that there's a relatively large sandbox resurgence on the horizon.

There is no consensus here on what makes a game better, hence the "because I said so" in light of someone disagreeing with a proposed definition. I agree you could have that discussion in a smaller more intimate group. Not so much in a larger open discussion.

The sandbox resurgence doesn't mean they will make them old school. In fact the only triple A sandbox game on the horizon, if you can even call it that, is EQN and it looks nothing like oldschool games. I think there is a valid argument somewhere that very niche games might be able to made with "oldschool" in mind, but they still won't be like they were "back then". We'll never see games made and played like they were "back then" again because "back then" is gone. Even EQ:N doesn't bill itself as sandbox, but sandbox styled. Is there any game being made now that is being created like they used to be?

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  Ice-Queen

Novice Member

Joined: 1/02/08
Posts: 2430

"Always borrow money from a pessimist. They won't expect it back."

10/07/13 6:20:18 PM#43
To me older games like UO and AC1 were better because they had more to do and were more quality games than most of the F2P crap they keep putting out. Devs these days are lazy copycats, until that changes, we will see no more quality mmo's for a while.

What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot

  mbolme

Novice Member

Joined: 9/27/05
Posts: 48

10/07/13 6:29:59 PM#44

I think older games were better because they contained some very irritating things. I remember a high-level mob that would path through the newbie area in DAOC-midgard. Toestubber.  He would gank all the newbs, and there was nothing we could do unless a higher-level character was there to resue us. It was very irritating. I still remember his name.

Once I got big enough, though, I was happy to stomp him into the ground whenever I saw him. I would jump off my horse if I saw him on the way to somewhere else just to thrash him. It was irritating, but at the end, there was reward. The key was to have some easier stuff (a lot of easier stuff) but some long spawn times and other irritations.

Modern games have taken away all the irritation, and what's left seems shallow.

  Holophonist

Elite Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 1997

10/07/13 6:31:35 PM#45
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by Antiquated
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Antiquated

OP Posits.

Responses can be paraphrased "Old games were just better 'cause they were."

Unassailable position, of course, because qualitative judgements are after all judgements.

"Why are red cars better?"

"I said so."

"Well, ok then. For you, they are indeed."

The problem becomes escaping from the corner you have painted yourself into, should they stop manufacturing red paint. That too is a purely personal problem.

Except you can easily quantify why they were different (better is a subjective term) and those difference are why I prefer them to more modern titles.

Now, depending on your tastes you may prefer newer designs to older, but there is a clear reason why today's titles might not be a person's cup of tea, but their lack of ability to change (not willingness) really has nothing to do with it.

But that won't save you when they're no longer manufacturing cars with red paint.

No one is making games like 2000 any more. If you want to, you have no choice except to play the originals.

If the original (also) aren't good enough, for whatever reason...well, you can complain ineffectually, I guess.

I'm having trouble making sense of either of your points.

You can absolutely have a discussion about what type of game is better as long as you agree on what makes a game "better." If you think depth, and player retention are indicative of a good game, then you can have a discussion/debate about how one game is better than the other. It's not just "I think this game is better just because." Too many people make the mistake of saying that just because there are subjective elements at play, that means anybody's opinion is as good as anybody else's and you can't discuss it in an objective way. That's just false. 

Also, just because they're not currently making games that resemble the oldschool games we claim to miss doesn't mean that they won't in the future. In fact, it seems to me that there's a relatively large sandbox resurgence on the horizon.

There is no consensus here on what makes a game better, hence the "because I said so" in light of someone disagreeing with a proposed definition. I agree you could have that discussion in a smaller more intimate group. Not so much in a larger open discussion.

The sandbox resurgence doesn't mean they will make them old school. In fact the only triple A sandbox game on the horizon, if you can even call it that, is EQN and it looks nothing like oldschool games. I think there is a valid argument somewhere that very niche games might be able to made with "oldschool" in mind, but they still won't be like they were "back then". We'll never see games made and played like they were "back then" again because "back then" is gone. Even EQ:N doesn't bill itself as sandbox, but sandbox styled. Is there any game being made now that is being created like they used to be?

I don't know many people who would disagree that depth and player retention are good things. But either way, that doesn't equal "because I said so." That implies that it's purely subjective, which it isn't. 

 

Also, I didn't say anything about AAA. I, and a lot of other "oldschool" advocates don't need a game to be AAA in order for us to enjoy it. This should be obvious because so many of us play private servers of games that are like 10 years old. And I'm not sure how oldschool they have to be in order to be put into that category, but The Repopulation looks like it's going to share a lot of elements with SWG and Shadowbane, which is are both oldschool games.

  Tindale111

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/21/12
Posts: 176

10/07/13 6:36:20 PM#46
your theory dos'nt really work, as the mechanics of a game haven't really changed much. except that its easier now it was mash buttons then and its mash buttons now, only on games like eq and eq2 you had about a hundred to chose from not the 6 or 8 you get now ..the newer games today are to easy everything is handed to you on a plate I don't want to go back to the old games because of graphics and the ive been their done that, but I don't see much progression in todays games in fact I would say they have taken a step backward in a lot of ways, as an example look at final fantasy a lot of people love the crafting which is quite fun but obtaining the mats is way to easy go to mine 2 yards away another mine respawn by the time you have done first and rinse repeat the zones are small and nothing seems difficult to beat so tho im middle aged I don't find games harder to get in to just they are boring. but I am still an optimist I hold out hope for games like teso and black desert in fact any game that will give my tired old neural network a try out :)
  Burntvet

Elite Member

Joined: 11/16/07
Posts: 2717

10/07/13 6:39:11 PM#47
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Antiquated
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Antiquated

OP Posits.

Responses can be paraphrased "Old games were just better 'cause they were."

Unassailable position, of course, because qualitative judgements are after all judgements.

"Why are red cars better?"

"I said so."

"Well, ok then. For you, they are indeed."

 

The problem becomes escaping from the corner you have painted yourself into, should they stop manufacturing red paint. That too is a purely personal problem.

Except you can easily quantify why they were different (better is a subjective term) and those difference are why I prefer them to more modern titles.

Now, depending on your tastes you may prefer newer designs to older, but there is a clear reason why today's titles might not be a person's cup of tea, but their lack of ability to change (not willingness) really has nothing to do with it.

But that won't save you when they're no longer manufacturing cars with red paint.

No one is making games like 2000 any more. If you want to, you have no choice except to play the originals.

If the original (also) aren't good enough, for whatever reason...well, you can complain ineffectually, I guess.

Bingo, that's why I'm playing a DAOC freeshard that has it's code base more or less set to circa 2003, because even the live version of the game is a former shadow of itself.

I'll poke my head out from time to time to see if the landscape has changed much, but otherwise it will be either this or EVE I think for now.

 

What he said.

Although games like EQ1 and UO and DAOC might technically still be around, they are so different from the originals, that they might as well be different games.

Same is true of many games that are not managed well over time, or are otherwise dumbed down by changes, intentional or not. (Heck, almost every long running MMORPG has a patch or expansion that causes the game to "jump the shark", I can't really think of one that hasn't.)

  Arglebargle

Elite Member

Joined: 6/13/07
Posts: 1047

10/07/13 6:43:43 PM#48
Originally posted by thecapitaine

MMOs seem better because they were novel experiences for many of us and were born at a time when the bounds of the internet were measurably closer, when the number of offerings was far smaller, when social media was virtually non-existent, and before gaming (particularly console gaming) exploded into what it is now.  For me it's like asking why haven't we had another proper Woodstock (despite later attempts) to recapture that experience.  Sure, we still have great musicians, plenty of motivated young people, and ample venues but having all the parts just isn't enough to reproduce that event. 

 

I can't emphasize enough how often this or very similar questions are posed in every artistic genre we humans are capable of.  You cannot talk movies, television, music, literature, theater, art, dance, or journalism without running into it.  There will always be a group of "veterans" who likely got their first or early exposure at a time they now consider to be the apex of the form, the high point that all subsequent efforts fail to reach.  It's such a common occurrence and transcends so many bounds that we have to start questioning its validity and whether it's just a basic part of human existence.  Either across the board, in nearly every facet of human endeavor, we are simply becoming less talented, less inspired, less capable and discerning.  Or, there's a strong predilection towards mythologizing what came before despite our best efforts at seeing things clearly. 

 

I'm greatly inclined to believe it's the latter.

 

Wow, nicely stated.   Very much this.

 

The 'Older Games were Better!' meme always has a funny taste to me, as I checked out all those games at the time, and the troubles, problems, and game design issues they had were enough to keep me from playing MMOs for years.   The folks who complain that they can't play in a style that they'd prefer, because those styles no longer exist, those folks I can relate to.  But the idea that those old games were in some sorta state of perfection (or even just better designed) is ludicrous.  Most of the developers were exploring unknown territory, and frequently got it wrong.    Hence things like the UO ability to besiege cities by piling up furniture around them.  Etc....

If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  Burntvet

Elite Member

Joined: 11/16/07
Posts: 2717

10/07/13 6:49:38 PM#49
Originally posted by The1ceQueen
To me older games like UO and AC1 were better because they had more to do and were more quality games than most of the F2P crap they keep putting out. Devs these days are lazy copycats, until that changes, we will see no more quality mmo's for a while.

This was why I enjoyed original SWG so much: there was always something to go do.

If I didn't want to PvP, I could go PvE for faction points, good creature resources, or for rare crafting-use loot components.

If I didn't want to PvE, I could craft, and in original SWG that was almost a whole game to itself.

If I didn't want to craft, I could go prospecting for areas where the rare materials spawned, or find an area with rare creatures (and creature babies, in the good CH days).

If I didn't want to do that, I could play the space side of the game.

And if I didn't want to do any of that, I could always hang out in the cantina and see what other people were doing, or search the vendors for things I needed, or work on the player city I lived in, or a bunch of other things.

 

In most games these days, people get tired of even logging in, because there is usually only one thing to do (fight) and only one or two ways to do it (PvP or raid). And one way to get there (linear story path).

In the older games, there were more things to do than just that.

And that is what all the people who bash the old games (and the people who liked them) don't seem to get.

 

 

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15143

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

10/07/13 6:50:23 PM#50
Originally posted by The1ceQueen
To me older games like UO and AC1 were better because they had more to do and were more quality games than most of the F2P crap they keep putting out. Devs these days are lazy copycats, until that changes, we will see no more quality mmo's for a while.

This has nothing to do with quality, what you're looking for is something deeper. Which actually will require less "quality" across the board, as it always has. The focus moves to larger scope, rather than better control, smoother animation, higher quality graphics resources, etc, etc...

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason

  Holophonist

Elite Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 1997

10/07/13 6:51:13 PM#51
Originally posted by thecapitaine

MMOs seem better because they were novel experiences for many of us and were born at a time when the bounds of the internet were measurably closer, when the number of offerings was far smaller, when social media was virtually non-existent, and before gaming (particularly console gaming) exploded into what it is now.  For me it's like asking why haven't we had another proper Woodstock (despite later attempts) to recapture that experience.  Sure, we still have great musicians, plenty of motivated young people, and ample venues but having all the parts just isn't enough to reproduce that event. 

 

I can't emphasize enough how often this or very similar questions are posed in every artistic genre we humans are capable of.  You cannot talk movies, television, music, literature, theater, art, dance, or journalism without running into it.  There will always be a group of "veterans" who likely got their first or early exposure at a time they now consider to be the apex of the form, the high point that all subsequent efforts fail to reach.  It's such a common occurrence and transcends so many bounds that we have to start questioning its validity and whether it's just a basic part of human existence.  Either across the board, in nearly every facet of human endeavor, we are simply becoming less talented, less inspired, less capable and discerning.  Or, there's a strong predilection towards mythologizing what came before despite our best efforts at seeing things clearly. 

 

I'm greatly inclined to believe it's the latter.

You're leaving out a third option, which is that MMORPGs are being changed to appeal to a broader audience. We're claiming that this makes the games less niche and therefore appeal to those people less deeply than a more targeted game would.

 

Also, in industries where the major driving force for quality is individual talent, instead of technology, it would be incredibly weird if the "good times" WEREN'T behind us. 

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15143

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

10/07/13 7:00:29 PM#52
Originally posted by Burntvet
Originally posted by The1ceQueen
To me older games like UO and AC1 were better because they had more to do and were more quality games than most of the F2P crap they keep putting out. Devs these days are lazy copycats, until that changes, we will see no more quality mmo's for a while.

This was why I enjoyed original SWG so much: there was always something to go do.

If I didn't want to PvP, I could go PvE for faction points, good creature resources, or for rare crafting-use loot components.

If I didn't want to PvE, I could craft, and in original SWG that was almost a whole game to itself.

If I didn't want to craft, I could go prospecting for areas where the rare materials spawned, or find an area with rare creatures (and creature babies, in the good CH days).

If I didn't want to do that, I could play the space side of the game.

And if I didn't want to do any of that, I could always hang out in the cantina and see what other people were doing, or search the vendors for things I needed, or work on the player city I lived in, or a bunch of other things.

 

In most games these days, people get tired of even logging in, because there is usually only one thing to do (fight) and only one or two ways to do it (PvP or raid). And one way to get there (linear story path).

In the older games, there were more things to do than just that.

And that is what all the people who bash the old games (and the people who liked them) don't seem to get.

 

 

It's because they were so turned off by the exterior, they never took the time to look deeper to see what certain sacrifices can bring to a game, and how it can add to the depth of the core and scope.

Hence why games like WOW took off as they did, all of their "innovations" were on the surface of the product. Rather than within the core and scope.

 

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason

  worldalpha

Novice Member

Joined: 11/03/11
Posts: 401

Working hard on WorldAlpha

10/07/13 7:12:31 PM#53
People are generally nostalgic.   That feeling about games is no different.  Everything was bigger, badder, more superior when I was a kid, is a common feeling that isn't always based on reality.

Thanks,
Mike
Working on Social Strategy MMORTS (now Launched!) http://www.worldalpha.com

  Arglebargle

Elite Member

Joined: 6/13/07
Posts: 1047

10/07/13 7:17:00 PM#54
Originally posted by worldalpha
People are generally nostalgic.   That feeling about games is no different.  Everything was bigger, badder, more superior when I was a kid, is a common feeling that isn't always based on reality.

70's Rock, man!   All that other stuff since then is just trash!   Back then, we had it just right!

If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  FinalFikus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 910

"We're up all night to get lucky"

10/07/13 7:20:50 PM#55
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by thecapitaine

MMOs seem better because they were novel experiences for many of us and were born at a time when the bounds of the internet were measurably closer, when the number of offerings was far smaller, when social media was virtually non-existent, and before gaming (particularly console gaming) exploded into what it is now.  For me it's like asking why haven't we had another proper Woodstock (despite later attempts) to recapture that experience.  Sure, we still have great musicians, plenty of motivated young people, and ample venues but having all the parts just isn't enough to reproduce that event. 

 

I can't emphasize enough how often this or very similar questions are posed in every artistic genre we humans are capable of.  You cannot talk movies, television, music, literature, theater, art, dance, or journalism without running into it.  There will always be a group of "veterans" who likely got their first or early exposure at a time they now consider to be the apex of the form, the high point that all subsequent efforts fail to reach.  It's such a common occurrence and transcends so many bounds that we have to start questioning its validity and whether it's just a basic part of human existence.  Either across the board, in nearly every facet of human endeavor, we are simply becoming less talented, less inspired, less capable and discerning.  Or, there's a strong predilection towards mythologizing what came before despite our best efforts at seeing things clearly. 

 

I'm greatly inclined to believe it's the latter.

You're leaving out a third option, which is that MMORPGs are being changed to appeal to a broader audience. We're claiming that this makes the games less niche and therefore appeal to those people less deeply than a more targeted game would.

 

Also, in industries where the major driving force for quality is individual talent, instead of technology, it would be incredibly weird if the "good times" WEREN'T behind us. 

Any creative or artistic endeavor will be more creative and artistic than its mathematical equivalent. It's not a complicated pattern. Why are you acting like it's unnatural?

Mathematics gets marketed a lot more since the risks are measurable, hence higher initial sales. But even non biased people can tell a painting from a photocopy.

"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  miscrpgdude

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/08
Posts: 28

10/07/13 7:22:48 PM#56

The issue with MMO's has little to do with nostalgia, the genre hasn't been around long enough for that. The issue is the changes to the business of MMO's, specifically attempting to appeal to a different and much broader demographic and attempts to capitalize on the inordinate disposable income of a small number of giant idiots.

It should be noted that this is largely a market reaction to the surge in competition of MMO's. Companies trying to appeal to the masses sense of greed and entitlement. They hand out freebies like candy to people who are often after a sense of in game accomplishment. Its a sad reality that to much competition in any intellectual property business with such a high startup and operating cost as MMO's suffers a significant number of complications as a result. Quality suffers because the reality is that intellectual property is ill suited to a market system.

Having said all of that the games have indeed "gotten worse" in many aspects for many people. If you are someone who has a viscerally negative reaction to being nickel and dimmed to death (like most intelligent people do) then modern MMO's are irritating as shit. I haven't played an MMO in nearly 3 years, and I don't see myself going back anytime soon because I am simply not the demographic that companies are targeting. Oh well, thats life, but that doesn't mean that games are "better" now, and you can certainly see that the market doesn't think most are better now because the lifespan of most is miniscule.

Trying to pass it off as some sort of absurd consumer grumpiness is the kind of idiocy that is ruining the industry.

  Holophonist

Elite Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 1997

10/07/13 7:32:01 PM#57
Originally posted by FinalFikus
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by thecapitaine

MMOs seem better because they were novel experiences for many of us and were born at a time when the bounds of the internet were measurably closer, when the number of offerings was far smaller, when social media was virtually non-existent, and before gaming (particularly console gaming) exploded into what it is now.  For me it's like asking why haven't we had another proper Woodstock (despite later attempts) to recapture that experience.  Sure, we still have great musicians, plenty of motivated young people, and ample venues but having all the parts just isn't enough to reproduce that event. 

 

I can't emphasize enough how often this or very similar questions are posed in every artistic genre we humans are capable of.  You cannot talk movies, television, music, literature, theater, art, dance, or journalism without running into it.  There will always be a group of "veterans" who likely got their first or early exposure at a time they now consider to be the apex of the form, the high point that all subsequent efforts fail to reach.  It's such a common occurrence and transcends so many bounds that we have to start questioning its validity and whether it's just a basic part of human existence.  Either across the board, in nearly every facet of human endeavor, we are simply becoming less talented, less inspired, less capable and discerning.  Or, there's a strong predilection towards mythologizing what came before despite our best efforts at seeing things clearly. 

 

I'm greatly inclined to believe it's the latter.

You're leaving out a third option, which is that MMORPGs are being changed to appeal to a broader audience. We're claiming that this makes the games less niche and therefore appeal to those people less deeply than a more targeted game would.

 

Also, in industries where the major driving force for quality is individual talent, instead of technology, it would be incredibly weird if the "good times" WEREN'T behind us. 

Any creative or artistic endeavor will be more creative and artistic than its mathematical equivalent. It's not a complicated pattern. Why are you acting like it's unnatural?

Mathematics gets marketed a lot more since the risks are measurable, hence higher initial sales. But even non biased people can tell a painting from a photocopy.

I'm sorry but I don't understand what you're talking about. Why are we talking about math? And how do you market it?

 

I'm so confused right now...

 

  FinalFikus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 910

"We're up all night to get lucky"

10/07/13 7:33:06 PM#58
Originally posted by worldalpha
People are generally nostalgic.   That feeling about games is no different.  Everything was bigger, badder, more superior when I was a kid, is a common feeling that isn't always based on reality.

Things were less convenient in the past.  True or false.

Games were more art and less math in the past.

Most of the people I know in real life that have played the older games, say the older games were better as well.  I don't really know anyone who is still playing mmorpgs.

"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  FinalFikus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 910

"We're up all night to get lucky"

10/07/13 7:38:31 PM#59
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by FinalFikus
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by thecapitaine

MMOs seem better because they were novel experiences for many of us and were born at a time when the bounds of the internet were measurably closer, when the number of offerings was far smaller, when social media was virtually non-existent, and before gaming (particularly console gaming) exploded into what it is now.  For me it's like asking why haven't we had another proper Woodstock (despite later attempts) to recapture that experience.  Sure, we still have great musicians, plenty of motivated young people, and ample venues but having all the parts just isn't enough to reproduce that event. 

 

I can't emphasize enough how often this or very similar questions are posed in every artistic genre we humans are capable of.  You cannot talk movies, television, music, literature, theater, art, dance, or journalism without running into it.  There will always be a group of "veterans" who likely got their first or early exposure at a time they now consider to be the apex of the form, the high point that all subsequent efforts fail to reach.  It's such a common occurrence and transcends so many bounds that we have to start questioning its validity and whether it's just a basic part of human existence.  Either across the board, in nearly every facet of human endeavor, we are simply becoming less talented, less inspired, less capable and discerning.  Or, there's a strong predilection towards mythologizing what came before despite our best efforts at seeing things clearly. 

 

I'm greatly inclined to believe it's the latter.

You're leaving out a third option, which is that MMORPGs are being changed to appeal to a broader audience. We're claiming that this makes the games less niche and therefore appeal to those people less deeply than a more targeted game would.

 

Also, in industries where the major driving force for quality is individual talent, instead of technology, it would be incredibly weird if the "good times" WEREN'T behind us. 

Any creative or artistic endeavor will be more creative and artistic than its mathematical equivalent. It's not a complicated pattern. Why are you acting like it's unnatural?

Mathematics gets marketed a lot more since the risks are measurable, hence higher initial sales. But even non biased people can tell a painting from a photocopy.

I'm sorry but I don't understand what you're talking about. Why are we talking about math? And how do you market it?

 

I'm so confused right now...

 

Mathematics is all mmorpgs are. What so confusing?

 

"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  thecapitaine

Elite Member

Joined: 3/06/11
Posts: 389

10/07/13 7:38:48 PM#60
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by thecapitaine

MMOs seem better because they were novel experiences for many of us and were born at a time when the bounds of the internet were measurably closer, when the number of offerings was far smaller, when social media was virtually non-existent, and before gaming (particularly console gaming) exploded into what it is now.  For me it's like asking why haven't we had another proper Woodstock (despite later attempts) to recapture that experience.  Sure, we still have great musicians, plenty of motivated young people, and ample venues but having all the parts just isn't enough to reproduce that event. 

 

I can't emphasize enough how often this or very similar questions are posed in every artistic genre we humans are capable of.  You cannot talk movies, television, music, literature, theater, art, dance, or journalism without running into it.  There will always be a group of "veterans" who likely got their first or early exposure at a time they now consider to be the apex of the form, the high point that all subsequent efforts fail to reach.  It's such a common occurrence and transcends so many bounds that we have to start questioning its validity and whether it's just a basic part of human existence.  Either across the board, in nearly every facet of human endeavor, we are simply becoming less talented, less inspired, less capable and discerning.  Or, there's a strong predilection towards mythologizing what came before despite our best efforts at seeing things clearly. 

 

I'm greatly inclined to believe it's the latter.

You're leaving out a third option, which is that MMORPGs are being changed to appeal to a broader audience. We're claiming that this makes the games less niche and therefore appeal to those people less deeply than a more targeted game would.

 

Also, in industries where the major driving force for quality is individual talent, instead of technology, it would be incredibly weird if the "good times" WEREN'T behind us. 

I have no argument with the person who likes the Beatles more than the Jackson Five.  It's certainly possible for a genre to shift focus to appeal to a different demographic and for the former demographic to be left in the dust.  However, that's not the point I was making.  It's the statement that somehow the games were objectively better at some point than now I find disagreeable.  There's no yardstick for measuring better, for starters, and the trend is so pervasive that I really do think it's a function of how we think, experience, and age more than any concrete slide towards mediocrity that occurs.

 

As to your second statement, I disagree even more.  I'm not sure what industries you're talking about, exactly, but there's no reason to believe that the world will ever lack for masterpieces of any kind.  In fact, people have been making the same arguments as you have about the dearth of greater genius and better ideas since before the printing press, only to have some new light burst upon the scene and prove them utterly wrong.

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