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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » why older games seem better...

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  Ender4

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/18/08
Posts: 2096

10/07/13 12:13:36 PM#21

Because they build the games for the 15-25 year olds and they want something completely different than the 35-45 year olds want. If you played the old games it probably means the new games aren't targeted at you.

  Burntvet

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/16/07
Posts: 2757

10/07/13 12:17:46 PM#22

I agree: the old games WERE better.

If I wanted some mindless, shoot-em-up fun, I could play shooters, then and now for that.

If I wanted a deeper game, I could play a AAA MMO like original UO or original SWG. Even DaoC.

Now? There is nothing even close available: it is a market made up of  "Clones", inch-deep (so-called) action MMOs, and under-funded, under-developed indie crap MMOs.

 

So the older games were something and offered something that the new games do not and have not.

 

  Ender4

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/18/08
Posts: 2096

10/07/13 12:25:20 PM#23

But again this generation won't play a game for years. There are more good titles released every month now than there were every year when I was a kid. They are going to consume a game for a couple of months and move on. They don't want a game that takes a year to reach max level because that game isn't going to be fun to them. They also aren't going to accept a game that is as poorly coded as UO was as an example, that game was a complete pile of crud from a coding standpoint. We saw just recently how a poorly coded game dies fast these days when Vanguard and WAR both failed so miserably.

The market drives how the games are built and the market decides what is better. What some 40 year old gamer thinks doesn't really matter much to them.

  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2023

10/07/13 12:39:07 PM#24
I don't think reality supports your connection here OP. I'm not disputing that an increase in age will start to have a negative impact on how well you accept or deal with change, but I think you're way off in assuming this is why people prefer older games over newer games.

I'm 26 and I've been disappointed with modern games (mmos in particular, but also single player games) for years. I don't think a young man in his late teens and early 20s can be considered to be suffering from any neurological deterioration.

Also, it has nothing to do with how fast paced games are now. This is pretty laughable. I'm in something like the top 1% of starcraft 2 players in the world, a game which is known for its incredibly fast pace.

There are objective and static reasons for why we prefer "oldschool" games. The way you guys make up excuses for the shallow, casual, boring money-grabs that we call modern mmos is ridiculous.
  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19113

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

10/07/13 1:11:07 PM#25
Originally posted by Antiquated

OP Posits.

Responses can be paraphrased "Old games were just better 'cause they were."

Unassailable position, of course, because qualitative judgements are after all judgements.

"Why are red cars better?"

"I said so."

"Well, ok then. For you, they are indeed."

 

The problem becomes escaping from the corner you have painted yourself into, should they stop manufacturing red paint. That too is a purely personal problem.

Except you can easily quantify why they were different (better is a subjective term) and those difference are why I prefer them to more modern titles.

Now, depending on your tastes you may prefer newer designs to older, but there is a clear reason why today's titles might not be a person's cup of tea, but their lack of ability to change (not willingness) really has nothing to do with it.

 

 

Arrogant, Condescending, Dismissive, Elitist, you speak as if these are bad things?
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Bladestrom

Elite Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 3356

10/07/13 1:20:16 PM#26
niche = specialisation, so for players that enjoyed an older style of mmorg that is regarded now as niche (RP/hardcore/open world- less lobby for e.g) their market has indeed stagnated so it's not an unreasonable position to take to say things were better back them.

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (1000 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (480 Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(900 elementalist), Wildstar

Now playing GW2, AOW 3

  Bladestrom

Elite Member

Joined: 4/04/11
Posts: 3356

10/07/13 1:23:12 PM#27
For e.g a truth : since Lotr/vanilla wow there has never been a mmorg that has taken the open works and made it bigger/better (true open works not with portals)

rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW (1000 hrs on main mage)> oblivion > LOTR (480 Hunter) > Rift (230 hours mage) > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(900 elementalist), Wildstar

Now playing GW2, AOW 3

  SnarlingWolf

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/09
Posts: 2728

10/07/13 1:28:26 PM#28

The OP is missing the fact that all forms of entertainment have become simplified and streamlined. Movies cut out a lot of the in-between moments, dialog, and general "slowness" to make sure movies were faster paced and that the action/sex/violence came at quicker intervals. If you ask certain people they will say that movies were better, deeper, and more artistic back in the day where as now they are formulaic, shallow, unintellectual, full of sex and violence. You ask other people, they'll say how good modern movies are.

 

The same thing happened with music and it is happening with video games. Companies can work off a basic formula of more constant dings to spur the desire to keep playing instead of having slow parts that may build communities and relationships. Some people will say that older video games required more thought, had deeper story lines, more lore, stronger communities, and were more original from one another and that newer games are all the same, no depth, no intelligence, just constant action and rewards. You ask other people and they'll say how good modern games are.

 

 

Movies now have things like the Sundance Film Festival where more artistic, deeper and intellectual movies are screened. These movies have small budgets and attract a niche audience, but to that audience they are the only place to go for movies. Video games will be growing that small niche side and the mainstream will be the been there done that flashy new game over and over. Most will enjoy that. So how can the companies be told they're doing it wrong?

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3206

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

10/07/13 1:30:37 PM#29


Originally posted by Neo_Viper
And as said, most of those games are still around... just play them!

The weakest argument on the internet. The old games are NOT the same games they once were. They have been "modernized" to entice the newer players. I could probably max level in EQ1 in a few months of serious gameplay and not even need to group. They now have mercenaries that you can hire to help you out. The leveling is MUCH faster. The combat is pretty much the same, though. I spent 3 years playing EQ1 and never got above level 38 (I think level 60 was max at that time). No. Not the same game.

When I do get the itch, which is not that often since EQ1 was never my ideal MMORPG, I can play on a private server that is fairly true to the game circa 1999 :)

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5818

10/07/13 1:45:30 PM#30
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 


Originally posted by Neo_Viper
And as said, most of those games are still around... just play them!


The weakest argument on the internet. The old games are NOT the same games they once were. They have been "modernized" to entice the newer players. I could probably max level in EQ1 in a few months of serious gameplay and not even need to group. They now have mercenaries that you can hire to help you out. The leveling is MUCH faster. The combat is pretty much the same, though. I spent 3 years playing EQ1 and never got above level 38 (I think level 60 was max at that time). No. Not the same game.

 

When I do get the itch, which is not that often since EQ1 was never my ideal MMORPG, I can play on a private server that is fairly true to the game circa 1999 :)

I wonder how popular private servers are and would be if they weren't quashed by legal entanglements. Would they really be that popular with the older crowd?

From my perspective the old games don't feel modernized as much as they made changes in response to their core players. Lineage isn't the game it was in 2002 - 2003, but then again most Lineage players I know were glad the game became a little more forgiving and allowed players to save months or years of character play rather than requiring a complete reroll.

I played the last month or two before NC closed the NA servers and it was a much better and friendlier game with none of what made it good lost on those changes.

I'm a little older (46 as I write this) and while I still like some older games like EQ2 and would play Lineage again if they reopened the servers, I think many modern changes have made mmo gaming more fun.

The only change I don't like is how the focus is on end game and the speed at which players are brought there. That is mostly because I don't like gear treadmills for the sake of tier/level increases. That's more a side effect of playing themeparks that are raid centric than it is when the generation of the game though. Raiders, as a whole, seem to like skipping everything else and just doing end game raids. For a demographic that is supposedly the minority, it's odd to me so many games focus on that.

Curse you AquaScum!

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3206

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

10/07/13 1:55:23 PM#31


Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by AlBQuirky

Originally posted by Neo_Viper
And as said, most of those games are still around... just play them!

The weakest argument on the internet. The old games are NOT the same games they once were. They have been "modernized" to entice the newer players. I could probably max level in EQ1 in a few months of serious gameplay and not even need to group. They now have mercenaries that you can hire to help you out. The leveling is MUCH faster. The combat is pretty much the same, though. I spent 3 years playing EQ1 and never got above level 38 (I think level 60 was max at that time). No. Not the same game.

When I do get the itch, which is not that often since EQ1 was never my ideal MMORPG, I can play on a private server that is fairly true to the game circa 1999 :)



I wonder how popular private servers are and would be if they weren't quashed by legal entanglements. Would they really be that popular with the older crowd?

From my perspective the old games don't feel modernized as much as they made changes in response to their core players. Lineage isn't the game it was in 2002 - 2003, but then again most Lineage players I know were glad the game became a little more forgiving and allowed players to save months or years of character play rather than requiring a complete reroll.

I played the last month or two before NC closed the NA servers and it was a much better and friendlier game with none of what made it good lost on those changes.

I'm a little older (46 as I write this) and while I still like some older games like EQ2 and would play Lineage again if they reopened the servers, I think many modern changes have made mmo gaming more fun.

The only change I don't like is how the focus is on end game and the speed at which players are brought there. That is mostly because I don't like gear treadmills for the sake of tier/level increases. That's more a side effect of playing themeparks that are raid centric than it is when the generation of the game though. Raiders, as a whole, seem to like skipping everything else and just doing end game raids. For a demographic that is supposedly the minority, it's odd to me so many games focus on that.



The server I play on usually has about 200-400 players on their one PvE sever (they also have a PvP server) whenever I log in.

I agree that the focus on the "end game" is not my cup of tea. I have tried raiding and it is just too hectic for me. I want gear that fits my character, not some boss the devs thought up. Therefor, I do not grind for gear. I am playing the devs game, not my game when that happens.

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  VicodinTaco

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/28/05
Posts: 663

10/07/13 1:56:03 PM#32
Originally posted by aspekx

first to be clear, there are significant differences in the mmorpg's from 10-15 years back (or more). so i am not belittling those changes. however, its interesting to note that a number of us older gamers can look back and think: my gahd, what was i thinking camping that spawn all day.

 

the sad truth, that i am coming to accept, is that neurologically speaking its becoming more and more evident that the brain's ability to adapt to change as we age does diminish and it does diminish noticeably.

 

im afraid that neurologically speaking some of us are simply getting older. and i mean that sincerely, not casting any aspersions. but the facts are that as you age your neuronal pathways become less and less "flexible" in forming new connections or altering paths.

 

note, this is not about intelligence or the ability to process information. it seems that in some ways its easier when you are older. but the ability to form new paths or adapt older ones in new ways is affected (even if you are doing Sudoku every morning).

 

this is often why older folks are stereotypically seen as not embracing change. neurologically, its just harder. so those things we've enjoyed in the past seem more pleasurable because in a sense they really are more pleasurable. and the reason is that the brain is not having to overcome an increasingly difficult hurdle towards change.

 

this doesn't mean that everyone over 40 can't change or adapt. but it does mean that it is decreasing over time.

WTF is this crap post?

 

Show me ONE new game that follows this formula:

There is a goal to overcome such as: "This quest is hard!  The enemies are too difficult!"

Then to overcome the problem:  Level up, gear up, skill up, craft up, learn to play better, or group up to complete the quest.

 

In new games you NEVER even face a difficult enemy or problem, you are already leveled up or your gear has just been handed to you from the last easy mode quest, your skills are cookie cut to overcome any enemy you face, crafting is a mini game for money sink, you cant play any better than hitting 1 2 3, grouping in pointless.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19830

10/07/13 4:59:21 PM#33
Originally posted by VicodinTaco

In new games you NEVER even face a difficult enemy or problem, you are already leveled up or your gear has just been handed to you from the last easy mode quest, your skills are cookie cut to overcome any enemy you face, crafting is a mini game for money sink, you cant play any better than hitting 1 2 3, grouping in pointless.

Diablo 3 Inferno MP10. Enough said. (Yeah, not a MMO, but close enough for me)

  laserit

Elite Member

Joined: 3/24/10
Posts: 1466

Confusius say: Man who go to bed with itchy bum wake up with stinky finger

10/07/13 5:08:18 PM#34

Well...

 

I hope you young-ans can appreciate that us "Old Schooler's"  used to have to play our MMOs at -30 in the snow. That's why they called us "hardcore" It didn't have anything to do with porn.

 

Now... where was I.....

 

well..... ya.....

I made a double sided USB cable and I plugged my Console into my PC... or did I plug my PC into my Console? Anyway I can now play Console games on my PC! and play PC games on my Console!

FRIGGING AWESOME!

  Antiquated

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 479

10/07/13 5:09:22 PM#35
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Antiquated

OP Posits.

Responses can be paraphrased "Old games were just better 'cause they were."

Unassailable position, of course, because qualitative judgements are after all judgements.

"Why are red cars better?"

"I said so."

"Well, ok then. For you, they are indeed."

 

The problem becomes escaping from the corner you have painted yourself into, should they stop manufacturing red paint. That too is a purely personal problem.

Except you can easily quantify why they were different (better is a subjective term) and those difference are why I prefer them to more modern titles.

Now, depending on your tastes you may prefer newer designs to older, but there is a clear reason why today's titles might not be a person's cup of tea, but their lack of ability to change (not willingness) really has nothing to do with it.

 

 

But that won't save you when they're no longer manufacturing cars with red paint.

No one is making games like 2000 any more. If you want to, you have no choice except to play the originals.

If the original (also) aren't good enough, for whatever reason...well, you can complain ineffectually, I guess.

  thecapitaine

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/06/11
Posts: 395

10/07/13 5:22:48 PM#36

MMOs seem better because they were novel experiences for many of us and were born at a time when the bounds of the internet were measurably closer, when the number of offerings was far smaller, when social media was virtually non-existent, and before gaming (particularly console gaming) exploded into what it is now.  For me it's like asking why haven't we had another proper Woodstock (despite later attempts) to recapture that experience.  Sure, we still have great musicians, plenty of motivated young people, and ample venues but having all the parts just isn't enough to reproduce that event. 

 

I can't emphasize enough how often this or very similar questions are posed in every artistic genre we humans are capable of.  You cannot talk movies, television, music, literature, theater, art, dance, or journalism without running into it.  There will always be a group of "veterans" who likely got their first or early exposure at a time they now consider to be the apex of the form, the high point that all subsequent efforts fail to reach.  It's such a common occurrence and transcends so many bounds that we have to start questioning its validity and whether it's just a basic part of human existence.  Either across the board, in nearly every facet of human endeavor, we are simply becoming less talented, less inspired, less capable and discerning.  Or, there's a strong predilection towards mythologizing what came before despite our best efforts at seeing things clearly. 

 

I'm greatly inclined to believe it's the latter.

 

  laserit

Elite Member

Joined: 3/24/10
Posts: 1466

Confusius say: Man who go to bed with itchy bum wake up with stinky finger

10/07/13 5:39:56 PM#37
Originally posted by thecapitaine

MMOs seem better because they were novel experiences for many of us and were born at a time when the bounds of the internet were measurably closer, when the number of offerings was far smaller, when social media was virtually non-existent, and before gaming (particularly console gaming) exploded into what it is now.  For me it's like asking why haven't we had another proper Woodstock (despite later attempts) to recapture that experience.  Sure, we still have great musicians, plenty of motivated young people, and ample venues but having all the parts just isn't enough to reproduce that event. 

 

I can't emphasize enough how often this or very similar questions are posed in every artistic genre we humans are capable of.  You cannot talk movies, television, music, literature, theater, art, dance, or journalism without running into it.  There will always be a group of "veterans" who likely got their first or early exposure at a time they now consider to be the apex of the form, the high point that all subsequent efforts fail to reach.  It's such a common occurrence and transcends so many bounds that we have to start questioning its validity and whether it's just a basic part of human existence.  Either across the board, in nearly every facet of human endeavor, we are simply becoming less talented, less inspired, less capable and discerning.  Or, there's a strong predilection towards mythologizing what came before despite our best efforts at seeing things clearly. 

 

I'm greatly inclined to believe it's the latter.

 

Wow a hell of a lot can happen in the last 50-60 years. When it comes to video games, most of the pioneer's are still heavily involved in their craft.

 

I would have to believe that the golden age of video games is in the future and not in the past. The computer age is still in its infancy.

I made a double sided USB cable and I plugged my Console into my PC... or did I plug my PC into my Console? Anyway I can now play Console games on my PC! and play PC games on my Console!

FRIGGING AWESOME!

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19113

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

10/07/13 5:41:51 PM#38
Originally posted by Antiquated
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Antiquated

OP Posits.

Responses can be paraphrased "Old games were just better 'cause they were."

Unassailable position, of course, because qualitative judgements are after all judgements.

"Why are red cars better?"

"I said so."

"Well, ok then. For you, they are indeed."

 

The problem becomes escaping from the corner you have painted yourself into, should they stop manufacturing red paint. That too is a purely personal problem.

Except you can easily quantify why they were different (better is a subjective term) and those difference are why I prefer them to more modern titles.

Now, depending on your tastes you may prefer newer designs to older, but there is a clear reason why today's titles might not be a person's cup of tea, but their lack of ability to change (not willingness) really has nothing to do with it.

But that won't save you when they're no longer manufacturing cars with red paint.

No one is making games like 2000 any more. If you want to, you have no choice except to play the originals.

If the original (also) aren't good enough, for whatever reason...well, you can complain ineffectually, I guess.

Bingo, that's why I'm playing a DAOC freeshard that has it's code base more or less set to circa 2003, because even the live version of the game is a former shadow of itself.

I'll poke my head out from time to time to see if the landscape has changed much, but otherwise it will be either this or EVE I think for now.

 

Arrogant, Condescending, Dismissive, Elitist, you speak as if these are bad things?
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5818

10/07/13 5:55:03 PM#39

Originally posted by AlBQuirky


The server I play on usually has about 200-400 players on their one PvE sever (they also have a PvP server) whenever I log in.

I agree that the focus on the "end game" is not my cup of tea. I have tried raiding and it is just too hectic for me. I want gear that fits my character, not some boss the devs thought up. Therefor, I do not grind for gear. I am playing the devs game, not my game when that happens.

That's really interesting. I would think that should be enough to keep one of those servers running and not be too expensive for the player if they don't charge more than the actual publisher.

I would think publishers would wake up and find a way to sponsor these instead of trying to shut them down. Imagine having full support and the ability to patch selectively as the server operator wishes. They could have better support, official assets, make money and focus their development in more creative areas.

I sort of didn't mind raiding except that it became the entire focus of the game and what a shallow thing it is. It's entire purpose shifted from challenging group encounters to a method to keep players subscribing indefinitely. Bad game design.

Originally posted by thecapitaine

MMOs seem better because they were novel experiences for many of us and were born at a time when the bounds of the internet were measurably closer, when the number of offerings was far smaller, when social media was virtually non-existent, and before gaming (particularly console gaming) exploded into what it is now.  For me it's like asking why haven't we had another proper Woodstock (despite later attempts) to recapture that experience.  Sure, we still have great musicians, plenty of motivated young people, and ample venues but having all the parts just isn't enough to reproduce that event. 

I can't emphasize enough how often this or very similar questions are posed in every artistic genre we humans are capable of.  You cannot talk movies, television, music, literature, theater, art, dance, or journalism without running into it.  There will always be a group of "veterans" who likely got their first or early exposure at a time they now consider to be the apex of the form, the high point that all subsequent efforts fail to reach.  It's such a common occurrence and transcends so many bounds that we have to start questioning its validity and whether it's just a basic part of human existence.  Either across the board, in nearly every facet of human endeavor, we are simply becoming less talented, less inspired, less capable and discerning.  Or, there's a strong predilection towards mythologizing what came before despite our best efforts at seeing things clearly. 

I'm greatly inclined to believe it's the latter.

Good post. That's one thing that makes me glad I got to participate in the early days of the net and mmos. It was that novel experience that would only last a short time that I really wax nostalgic over. Instead of people trying to recreate that they would be better served enjoying what they have now and whatever novel experiences come their way.

I don't think it's that we're becoming less talented, but that there is room for more than just the top talent as those art forms mature. I think that is mixed heavily with the combination of mythologizing (nice word!) what came before. So we see a lot of dissatisfaction expressed by those who were fortunate enough to experience the "bliss years".

Curse you AquaScum!

  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2743

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

10/07/13 5:59:04 PM#40
Originally posted by drakaena
Because devs used to make games they wanted to play instead of corporation's deciding what will make them the most money. MMOs lost their soul. Sort of like D&D.

Pretty much spot on.  100% agree.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

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