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Mortal Online

Mortal Online 

General Discussion  » Mortal Online could have been the best MMORPG ever...

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72 posts found
  Toferio

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/26/09
Posts: 1456

10/01/13 12:47:30 AM#21
Originally posted by Vexus_X

/wait for Embers of Caerus

Last time I checked in on that game, EoC suffered from same issues as MO, namely devs being stuck in an old "hardcore" mindset that will ultimately ruin the game. I recall, for example, reading some of them saying how cool it would be if you had no fast transportation but only horses.. Yeah, have fun guys with a game where it takes me hours just to meet a friend so we can play together. There is "hard but userfriendly" and then there's "questionably hard but annoying". MO fell into the latter category with its design issues. 

  Ramanadjinn

Elite Member

Joined: 8/08/11
Posts: 1296

10/01/13 1:34:54 AM#22
Originally posted by Toferio
Originally posted by Vexus_X

/wait for Embers of Caerus

Last time I checked in on that game, EoC suffered from same issues as MO, namely devs being stuck in an old "hardcore" mindset that will ultimately ruin the game. I recall, for example, reading some of them saying how cool it would be if you had no fast transportation but only horses.. Yeah, have fun guys with a game where it takes me hours just to meet a friend so we can play together. There is "hard but userfriendly" and then there's "questionably hard but annoying". MO fell into the latter category with its design issues. 

 

There are advantages and disadvantages to what you and they like.  There isn't a good way and bad way to do fast travel unless you allow your subjective personal preferences to define what is good.

Some people might ask what your friends are doing an hour away from where you guys usually hang out in the first place.  There is a lot of game design decisions behind fast travel and why your argument works for a particular game or not.

The MO developers did choose to forego many of the convenience features with their game.  That doesn't inherently make it a bad game.  It just makes it a game where many players who want to log in for 20 minutes, do some content, and then drop what they're doing and leave whenever they like are going to have a harder time enjoying it. 

I wouldn't want to see a -click to travel to any town- type of ability in the game.  Like gps tracking on an in-game map, A fully linked auction house that delivers goods from anywhere, A friendly-fire OFF option, and many other features new people often ask -- For those of us who enjoy it, these features would take away more than they would give back.

  Toferio

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/26/09
Posts: 1456

10/01/13 2:37:48 AM#23
Originally posted by Ramanadjinn
Originally posted by Toferio
Originally posted by Vexus_X

/wait for Embers of Caerus

Last time I checked in on that game, EoC suffered from same issues as MO, namely devs being stuck in an old "hardcore" mindset that will ultimately ruin the game. I recall, for example, reading some of them saying how cool it would be if you had no fast transportation but only horses.. Yeah, have fun guys with a game where it takes me hours just to meet a friend so we can play together. There is "hard but userfriendly" and then there's "questionably hard but annoying". MO fell into the latter category with its design issues. 

 

There are advantages and disadvantages to what you and they like.  There isn't a good way and bad way to do fast travel unless you allow your subjective personal preferences to define what is good.

I am not sure I agree that fast travel is as subjective as you mention it to be. Say that we have "click anywhere to go there at any time" fast travel. Objectively it sucks for game design in most cases. It removes sense of achievements and adventure, breaks immersion. That is of course an extreme example. Having no fast travel over a vast world (MO doesn't really fall under being vast, and it gets away from lack of fast travel by having a relatively small map) is also objectively a bad decision, due to my above reasoning. 

Some people might ask what your friends are doing an hour away from where you guys usually hang out in the first place.  There is a lot of game design decisions behind fast travel and why your argument works for a particular game or not.

It is a game, people my have met new people who usually hang out elsewhere, or need to get something from a place afar. Good design is making people want to stay at one place, owning their own house, where they belong. Bad design makes them stay in one place because it takes shitloads of times to get elsewhere. Again, imho. 

The MO developers did choose to forego many of the convenience features with their game.  That doesn't inherently make it a bad game.  It just makes it a game where many players who want to log in for 20 minutes, do some content, and then drop what they're doing and leave whenever they like are going to have a harder time enjoying it. 

I think they chose to forego them out of inability to implement them the right way, rather than because they did not belong. MO devs often mention the game being directly influenced and aspiring to be the new UO. Now in UO, I could do exactly that, log in for 20 min and feel I accomplished something. It didn't need to be soemthing grand, like clearing a dungeon (WoW) but I still got something done. Like in real life, if I have 20 min, you bet I can get some work done. I'm not gonna argue whether you can do that in MO, as I haven't played it in longer time, but my point is that it is good game design to allow players feeling sense of achievement even after shorter time, all that matters is scale.

You mention MO foregoing many convenience features with their game. I once again state that's only because they are inept at design. In beta they thought it was a great idea not to have the light pillars over priests, resulting in people wandering for hours as ghosts, or argued for the lack of compass ingame. Look at what features we now have? As for the map, I really don't see the point of not having it ingame. I can understand not having auto navigation map ala WoW but lack of any kind of map is simply illogical and unrealistic, especially since you have said map on the official site. 

I wouldn't want to see a -click to travel to any town- type of ability in the game.  Like gps tracking on an in-game map, A fully linked auction house that delivers goods from anywhere, A friendly-fire OFF option, and many other features new people often ask -- For those of us who enjoy it, these features would take away more than they would give back.

 

  grimrot

Novice Member

Joined: 8/26/13
Posts: 13

 
OP  10/01/13 3:16:15 PM#24
Originally posted by Ramanadjinn
Originally posted by Toferio
Originally posted by Vexus_X

/wait for Embers of Caerus

Last time I checked in on that game, EoC suffered from same issues as MO, namely devs being stuck in an old "hardcore" mindset that will ultimately ruin the game. I recall, for example, reading some of them saying how cool it would be if you had no fast transportation but only horses.. Yeah, have fun guys with a game where it takes me hours just to meet a friend so we can play together. There is "hard but userfriendly" and then there's "questionably hard but annoying". MO fell into the latter category with its design issues. 

 

There are advantages and disadvantages to what you and they like.  There isn't a good way and bad way to do fast travel unless you allow your subjective personal preferences to define what is good.

Some people might ask what your friends are doing an hour away from where you guys usually hang out in the first place.  There is a lot of game design decisions behind fast travel and why your argument works for a particular game or not.

The MO developers did choose to forego many of the convenience features with their game.  That doesn't inherently make it a bad game.  It just makes it a game where many players who want to log in for 20 minutes, do some content, and then drop what they're doing and leave whenever they like are going to have a harder time enjoying it. 

I wouldn't want to see a -click to travel to any town- type of ability in the game.  Like gps tracking on an in-game map, A fully linked auction house that delivers goods from anywhere, A friendly-fire OFF option, and many other features new people often ask -- For those of us who enjoy it, these features would take away more than they would give back.

Exactly right.

  User Deleted
10/01/13 10:42:16 PM#25
Regardless of what it could have been, it's now F2P with a horrible population.
  Vexus_X

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/23/09
Posts: 38

10/02/13 3:14:34 PM#26
Originally posted by Toferio
Originally posted by Vexus_X

/wait for Embers of Caerus

Last time I checked in on that game, EoC suffered from same issues as MO, namely devs being stuck in an old "hardcore" mindset that will ultimately ruin the game. I recall, for example, reading some of them saying how cool it would be if you had no fast transportation but only horses.. Yeah, have fun guys with a game where it takes me hours just to meet a friend so we can play together. There is "hard but userfriendly" and then there's "questionably hard but annoying". MO fell into the latter category with its design issues. 

WALL OF TEXT ENGAGE!

No no no NO NO.  The hardcore mindset is why games like DayZ, Minecraft, and previously World of Warcraft and Ultima Online are SO POPULAR.  World of Warcraft was a hardcore game in terms of raiding pre-Burning Crusade.  Even BC had some hardcore aspect that kept a lot of players hooked.  40-man raids were hardcore as anything MO has to offer, requiring massive organization on the scale that most small businesses can't match.

Casual games are ones where your actions have little meaning to the overall outcome of the game.  These include titles such as Call of Duty, Battlefield, hate to say it but Guild Wars 2, current World of Warcraft, Hearthstone, Skyrim, Mass Effect, Crysis... games where sure, you can play hard, but really you know you're going to a) beat the game, or b) get high end loot, depending on how long you play, not how skilled you are as a player.

The reason why try out all the new games is for that hardcore experience; to find a game where our actions matter.  Mortal Online achieves this actually, but in a poor way that has become worse over time.  It is a hardcore game, where your actions can have lasting effects on the game world for a long time.  If you manage to kill off the skilled enemy player in a big fight, it can turn the tide for your group in the long run.  There is no instant-respawn with all your gear.  Shit matters.

There is a huge demand for this kind of thing.  The problem is most complainers are the carebear kids that get hooked on Cow Clicker and have the time to come on forums and complain.  These are the same kids that complain when a AAA title is 'too hard' even though they are fighting computer AI.  They are the majority, that is for sure, but that is not to say that the hardcore element gamers always strive for is an issue.  No, it is a feature.  If League of Legends was easy, if Starcraft 2 and DOTA 2 were easy, they wouldn't the most watched games on Twitch.tv, and wouldn't be the highest paying games out there.  They are popular because they are easy to get into, but hard to master.  They are hardcore games with the gloss of easymode to maintain a casual player base.  Everything you do in those games, every click, every move, every choice, matters in the outcome of the game.  So it is critical to be on top of your game to win.

We want risk, we want meaning, and we want to get upset and rage if we fail.  Yes, we want it to take hours to run to a friend, because it has meaning.  It means if you go somewhere with a friend and ambush someone, it will take their friend hours to help.  There will be no instant-teleporting in reinforcements, no friends flying in to swoop down and help.  That is good, not bad, that you have to form meaningful relationships with your friends in the game, and have to plan and rely on them being there when you are doing something important.  And if not, you have to run away, and be good at running away, to survive.

To this extent, sure, not everyone likes that.  They want to click their cow and not be bothered by someone.  To those people, stay in those cow clicker games and stay out of hardcore games.  The real problem in any of the hardcore games has been the extremely odd decisions by developers to CATER to the casual gamers!  EVE for example DOES NOT cater to casual players!  And it is widely successful.  It is hard and unforgiving.  Their single ez-mode feature is insurance, which just lessens the pain of losing your expensive hard to get ships (relatively).  It does not remove the risk of losing almost EVERYTHING you have worked for if you do something stupid.  Mortal Online went this route.  They said here is a hardcore experience, and then proceeded to add carebear requests into the game to make it worse over time, not better.  Their focus was hardcore, and by virtue of greed they went against their principals and ruined the game.  They didn't love implementing those casual-mode features.  They just heard the outcry of needing vendors, and needing more NPCs, and needing more guards, and didn't listen to the silence from the actual players who were too busy enjoying the game to bother complaining.  So they added casual mechanics and progressively made the game easier, and worse off, with little peaks of interesting content to keep a news feed going, but never delivering on their original promise of hardcore.

I am really starving for a hardcore game of true intention, one that realizes the initial months of release are going to be shit, but that, like EVE, sticking in it, sticking to the idea, yields great long term results.  Because the hardcore game is the game you go back to every now and then.  You get hooked, leave for a while, see some new shiny game, realize it is too easy, search for a hard game, and bam, you realize you were playing that hard game just a few months ago.  Back you come, this time ready to spend money on cool new features that were added in the meantime.  Guild Wars 2 for a counter-example, is a 10/10 in my book.  One of the best games ever made, period.  But I no longer play it!  It is too easy!  PvP is too easy!  I would rape huge groups of enemies in WvW PvP.  I ran a 5-man group that would engage 15 man groups and slaughter them.  And that was the peak of the game, almost.  The real peak was when I developed backdoor strategies to get into all the keeps and towers in WvW, but that is another story...  The point is, the WvW was a glossy carebear experience but fun in that I could push limits... immensely fun, but still, nothing meaningful unfortunately.

I want to point out that I am playing one of the most hardcore games I've seen in a long time: Salem.  Salem is actually a good game, and extremely hardcore, and extremely fun in the scale of things.  It is a shitty Java based game - it is 3D at least - but lacks tons of features that could have made it amazing.  The single-server, the huge scale of the world, and the difficulty in doing almost everything in the game is so appealing.  The problem is actually some of the ez-mode features that gives hardcore players a bigger advantage over newer players, rather than vice-versa.  In any case, it is not a game for everyone, but it has amazing complex systems in place that are needed to 'level up' in the game.  It is literally too hard for most gamers to play.  It is mainly due to the fact that it is not a 3rd or 1st person FPS game, and so there is little immersion in the accomplishments you make, but beyond some slight failures in design choice (on purpose, because of a limited development team), it is super hard, and super rewarding.  Everything is risky, and one bad choice could mean the permanent death of your character.

WALL OF TEXT

Originally posted by ilives
Regardless of what it could have been, it's now F2P with a horrible population.

It is not F2P.  Free to play means enjoying the game to its full potential for free, while perhaps being at a slight disadvantage in getting to the end-game, or maybe just not as fast.  Unless things have changed since greenlight, they are still limiting free accounts.

I understand why; free accounts can lead to a large number of alts performing specific tasks for main characters.  How this is bad, I have no idea.  In a time where AAA titles are competing with our attention, understanding that by getting a huge number of players, you bring in money by offering character customizations, thus becoming profitable (see Planetside 2, a completely F2P game), Mortal Online is still stuck in offering you a half-assed character that cannot compete at top levels at doing anything besides a worker alt.

So basically, they are just dumb, saying you can have worker alts with free accounts, but free accounts cannot be full-stat players because they would become worker alts, thus limiting anyone who creates a free account to try out the game, maintaining the standard that the free accounts make up mostly worker alts rather than actual players...

 

Well, I had to get this out.  Really, MO is worth a look, but that is it.  As soon as you think of paying that monthly fee with its foreign currency transaction fee by your bank, stop playing.  That is the height of the game...  BUT, I know you will pay for a few months and enjoy it.  I hope it lasts for you, I really do.  I hope you don't get caught in the illusion though.  See through it.  Embrace the next game that promises everything and doesn't deliver - at least there is some progress there.  At some point, there will be a delivery of features that matter, and we will all rejoice for years again on that hard game.

  Toferio

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/26/09
Posts: 1456

10/02/13 5:23:40 PM#27
Originally posted by Vexus_X
Originally posted by Toferio
Originally posted by Vexus_X

/wait for Embers of Caerus

Last time I checked in on that game, EoC suffered from same issues as MO, namely devs being stuck in an old "hardcore" mindset that will ultimately ruin the game. I recall, for example, reading some of them saying how cool it would be if you had no fast transportation but only horses.. Yeah, have fun guys with a game where it takes me hours just to meet a friend so we can play together. There is "hard but userfriendly" and then there's "questionably hard but annoying". MO fell into the latter category with its design issues. 

WALL OF TEXT ENGAGE!

No no no NO NO.  The hardcore mindset is why games like DayZ, Minecraft, and previously World of Warcraft and Ultima Online are SO POPULAR.  World of Warcraft was a hardcore game in terms of raiding pre-Burning Crusade.  Even BC had some hardcore aspect that kept a lot of players hooked.  40-man raids were hardcore as anything MO has to offer, requiring massive organization on the scale that most small businesses can't match.

Minecraft, hardcore? Are you freaking serious? You are mixing everything into same pile. DayZ, like Demons's Souls, has challenging hardcore design. Games like MO and EoC (I think) have pain in the rear hardcore design. There is no challenge to it, just annoyance and waste of time, as per examples above. Did you entirely miss the last two sentences of the paragraph you are quoting? I am all in for a challenging game, but walking for hours across the map just to meet with a friend is not a challenge, it is an annoyance and the sooner you "hardcore" fans understand it, the sooner we will have an awesome, challenging game. I can't wait for it either, but it has to be well designed. 

  Ramanadjinn

Elite Member

Joined: 8/08/11
Posts: 1296

10/02/13 7:39:19 PM#28
Originally posted by Toferio
Minecraft, hardcore? Are you freaking serious? You are mixing everything into same pile. DayZ, like Demons's Souls, has challenging hardcore design. Games like MO and EoC (I think) have pain in the rear hardcore design. There is no challenge to it, just annoyance and waste of time, as per examples above. Did you entirely miss the last two sentences of the paragraph you are quoting? I am all in for a challenging game, but walking for hours across the map just to meet with a friend is not a challenge, it is an annoyance and the sooner you "hardcore" fans understand it, the sooner we will have an awesome, challenging game. I can't wait for it either, but it has to be well designed. 

 

Walking for hours across a map to meet your friends, Hyperbole?

I've seen people call the Mortal Online map small, or even tiny.  Yet I see someone comment about walking for hours across the map to meet a friend.  It takes me 10-20 minutes to go from Vadda to Morin Khur. Or from Vadda to Tindrem.

Still, I have to wonder.  I have many friends playing this game and every time I log in to the game we are all either very near each other, or running some errand for one another.  Why is this not the case with you and your friends?

Regardless, i'd like to hear your ideas for how travel should be handled.  You've mentioned a couple of times this one subjective thing and how walking across a map is an annoyance with no benefit.  It sounds as if you don't see our point of view on why travel is a good thing.  

Anyone can see why clicking a portal, casting a spell, or using the UI to instantly teleport to a friend is good.  It adds convenience to the game and the ability to instantly meet up with a friend or 5 to get to the actual content you want to do together as soon as possible.  It cuts out the transportation which you could argue doesn't add any real "fun" utility to the game in favor of spending more time doing the actual content together.

Do you understand though why we don't necessarily agree with this philosophy?

If you do not, you are arguing against something you do not understand.  If you do, why do you argue for something that is a matter of preference as if it were an objective fact? 

  Arakazi

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/23/09
Posts: 834

10/02/13 8:12:47 PM#29

Coulda, shoulda, woulda... I feel the same way about Vanguard. Could of been great if only...

But the reality is that MO and VG and just about every other MMO game falls well short. l've just about had enough of MMO's. I'm tired of the grinding and the two dimensional gameplay. Tired of the griefing and the asshattery I have to put up with.

MMO's should be fun. They're not. It's an endless tedium of small tasks that make me feel like one of Skinner's pigeons or like Sisyphus rolling his boulder up the hill only to find out the next day he has to do it all again.

They should be virtual worlds that should make you feel like you are part of the story. They're not. They are game worlds and you are always the passive observer dancing to the games tune.

MMO's should be social. They're not. It's full on people obsessed with gear and, mounts and these, frankly, annoying pets.

I'm done. FFXV was the last shot. Shallow world, gameplay and pathetic story lines.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10432

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

10/02/13 9:40:34 PM#30


Originally posted by Toferio

Originally posted by Vexus_X /wait for Embers of Caerus
Last time I checked in on that game, EoC suffered from same issues as MO, namely devs being stuck in an old "hardcore" mindset that will ultimately ruin the game. I recall, for example, reading some of them saying how cool it would be if you had no fast transportation but only horses.. Yeah, have fun guys with a game where it takes me hours just to meet a friend so we can play together. There is "hard but userfriendly" and then there's "questionably hard but annoying". MO fell into the latter category with its design issues. 



MO's biggest issue is that development on the game was just bad. People got stuck in walls and killed for months, giant mutant horses glitching through the landscape with invisible players and monsters killing stuff went on and on and on like the Energizer Bunny powered by black holes of sad.

I think the "hard core" game style does limit the population for a game, but the game could still be well written and well received. It just wouldn't be for everyone, which isn't the same as being a really bad game.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Toferio

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/26/09
Posts: 1456

10/03/13 12:41:57 AM#31
Originally posted by Ramanadjinn
Originally posted by Toferio
Minecraft, hardcore? Are you freaking serious? You are mixing everything into same pile. DayZ, like Demons's Souls, has challenging hardcore design. Games like MO and EoC (I think) have pain in the rear hardcore design. There is no challenge to it, just annoyance and waste of time, as per examples above. Did you entirely miss the last two sentences of the paragraph you are quoting? I am all in for a challenging game, but walking for hours across the map just to meet with a friend is not a challenge, it is an annoyance and the sooner you "hardcore" fans understand it, the sooner we will have an awesome, challenging game. I can't wait for it either, but it has to be well designed. 

 

Walking for hours across a map to meet your friends, Hyperbole?

I am not talking about MO but in general, MOs map IS small. 

Still, I have to wonder.  I have many friends playing this game and every time I log in to the game we are all either very near each other, or running some errand for one another.  Why is this not the case with you and your friends?

Regardless, i'd like to hear your ideas for how travel should be handled.  You've mentioned a couple of times this one subjective thing and how walking across a map is an annoyance with no benefit.  It sounds as if you don't see our point of view on why travel is a good thing.  

.. You DO know I replied to you above where I both mention the "why are you not together with friends" scenarios and discuss alternatives? 

Do you understand though why we don't necessarily agree with this philosophy?

I understand that people have weird fetishes, but that doesn't mean that should be the norm.  Now go back and re-read my first reply. 

 

  Ramanadjinn

Elite Member

Joined: 8/08/11
Posts: 1296

10/03/13 4:57:58 AM#32
Originally posted by Toferio
Originally posted by Ramanadjinn
 

Walking for hours across a map to meet your friends, Hyperbole?

I am not talking about MO but in general, MOs map IS small. 

Still, I have to wonder.  I have many friends playing this game and every time I log in to the game we are all either very near each other, or running some errand for one another.  Why is this not the case with you and your friends?

Regardless, i'd like to hear your ideas for how travel should be handled.  You've mentioned a couple of times this one subjective thing and how walking across a map is an annoyance with no benefit.  It sounds as if you don't see our point of view on why travel is a good thing.  

.. You DO know I replied to you above where I both mention the "why are you not together with friends" scenarios and discuss alternatives? 

Do you understand though why we don't necessarily agree with this philosophy?

I understand that people have weird fetishes, but that doesn't mean that should be the norm.  Now go back and re-read my first reply. 

 

 

The crux of the matter here is i'm not calling what you subjectively enjoy in a game objectively bad design or the wrong way to do something.  You are doing this to me though.  Not every game needs to be made so that everyone will enjoy it.  

I did not reply to your other post because I just didn't see anything worth replying.  I saw no point in going through point by point and saying "ok i disagree."  I said these things are subjective, you say they aren't "as subjective as i think."  I disagree.  I always thought subjectivity/objectivity were binary states and not on a spectrum.  Bananas are subjectively tasty and objectively yellow.  

I don't feel meeting someone somehow that is across the world forcing you to travel for a long time to see him/her is inherently bad design.  I don't think pointing out one inconvenience of a system and then saying "See! bad design!" is a very good argument.  Maybe you do and thats ok.  I'll just disagree with that methodology and try not to use it personally.

I saw no real solutions to the fast travel problem in your other post or this one.

Just as I see no willingness from you to understand why I don't agree with your philosophy.

Saying my point of view on the subject is due to a weird fetish I feel either shows you lack understanding on my viewpoint or are being intellectually dishonest.  I at least made an argument for why fast travel is good for a game.

Once again though, if you're not going to try to understand me or those of us who enjoy the other end of the fast travel spectrum there is no point in discussing it.  You just won't have perspective on the issue if you will only look at it from that one narrow angle.

Which is not to say you can't understand me, for all I know you can but are just unwilling thus far.

It is a bit like some of the people who say things like "Full loot pvp is just objectively bad game design."  Often when your personal preferences are dictating what is "objectively" anything you are in error.

 

  Toferio

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/26/09
Posts: 1456

10/03/13 6:09:39 AM#33
Originally posted by Ramanadjinn
Originally posted by Toferio
Originally posted by Ramanadjinn
 

Walking for hours across a map to meet your friends, Hyperbole?

I am not talking about MO but in general, MOs map IS small. 

Still, I have to wonder.  I have many friends playing this game and every time I log in to the game we are all either very near each other, or running some errand for one another.  Why is this not the case with you and your friends?

Regardless, i'd like to hear your ideas for how travel should be handled.  You've mentioned a couple of times this one subjective thing and how walking across a map is an annoyance with no benefit.  It sounds as if you don't see our point of view on why travel is a good thing.  

.. You DO know I replied to you above where I both mention the "why are you not together with friends" scenarios and discuss alternatives? 

Do you understand though why we don't necessarily agree with this philosophy?

I understand that people have weird fetishes, but that doesn't mean that should be the norm.  Now go back and re-read my first reply. 

 

 

The crux of the matter here is i'm not calling what you subjectively enjoy in a game objectively bad design or the wrong way to do something.  You are doing this to me though.  Not every game needs to be made so that everyone will enjoy it.  

I never said that every game needs to be made so everyone can enjoy it, but certain features are not subjective. Only because YOU personally enjoy them, does not make them subjective by default. Some people are pedophiles (just an argument, not calling anyone here for that) and enjoy certain.. things, that are OBJECTIVELY horrible. I am pulling an extreme example here only to show that your argument of "well, I enjoy it" does not hold up. 

I did not reply to your other post because I just didn't see anything worth replying.  I saw no point in going through point by point and saying "ok i disagree."  I said these things are subjective, you say they aren't "as subjective as i think."  I disagree.  I always thought subjectivity/objectivity were binary states and not on a spectrum.  Bananas are subjectively tasty and objectively yellow.  

Yes, and while it is subjective whether you enjoy or not said taste of bananas, it is objective whether it is a healthy fruit or not. Same goes for design. You can enjoy a certain feature all you want, but it can still be a bad design move. Such as, for example, if we took and implemented instant teleportation from anywhere to anywhere in MO. Some people would surely enjoy it, but objectively it is a really bad design decision. I mentioned replying to my post because in your previous ones you raise questions that I answered in my previous reply.

I don't feel meeting someone somehow that is across the world forcing you to travel for a long time to see him/her is inherently bad design.  I don't think pointing out one inconvenience of a system and then saying "See! bad design!" is a very good argument.  Maybe you do and thats ok.  I'll just disagree with that methodology and try not to use it personally.

Fair enough that you disagree, we have different opinions and we don't really need to agree on one. But it was worth explaining why I personally consider games that make you waste your time on hours of travel (no MO) for goo game design unless a game is built around traveling as its core. 

I saw no real solutions to the fast travel problem in your other post or this one. Just as I see no willingness from you to understand why I don't agree with your philosophy.

There is no real problem to begin with, YOU brought up the discussion and then ignored my arguments regarding traveling and how starvault approached their design. There are decent ways to do fast travel, there are bad ways of doing it. Pulling a blanket statement and saying that it is all subjective is not the way to go. 

Saying my point of view on the subject is due to a weird fetish I feel either shows you lack understanding on my viewpoint or are being intellectually dishonest.  I at least made an argument for why fast travel is good for a game.

Once again, I pulled that comparison simply because your subjective opinion on how you like the features in your game has nothing to do with my discussion of general design approach. You have your kinks, fair enough. I am discussing that in general completely ignoring any form of fast travel is a very questionable approach, despite the handful of players to may think it's cool. 

And I made arguments for why fast travel can be a good/bad thing too. 

Once again though, if you're not going to try to understand me or those of us who enjoy the other end of the fast travel spectrum there is no point in discussing it.  You just won't have perspective on the issue if you will only look at it from that one narrow angle.

Once again, this is not about what you personally like. I don't question what your poison is, nor do I care, I am talking about general approach to design in MMORPGs. You are the one who can't grasp that this is not personal, people enjoy many different things and I don't question that, I understand we all have our own preferences. I am simply arguing from the general perspective but you keep pulling "but it's all subjective" argument. Well, duh?

Which is not to say you can't understand me, for all I know you can but are just unwilling thus far.

It is a bit like some of the people who say things like "Full loot pvp is just objectively bad game design."  Often when your personal preferences are dictating what is "objectively" anything you are in error.

And you are letting your own personal preferences to dictate what is subjective or not. Only because you enjoy certain something, you seem to be unable to discuss it from general perspective. There are always exceptions, of course, all I said is that generally speaking lack o any form of fast travel for a big map is not a good design. You start defending it from playing MO, which is not even relevant as the map can be crossed quickly enough. 

  Shyatic

Novice Member

Joined: 3/05/12
Posts: 43

10/03/13 11:53:07 AM#34

Had to reply to this because it's a ridiculous premise.

Having a great idea is *easy*. Lots of people have great ideas, lots of people can imagine worlds beyond compare, lots of people can think up things that nobody else does.

DELIVERY is what makes the difference. Mortal Online could *never* have been the best MMORPG ever because it was not started by the best development team ever. Simple as that.

The premise that "If it were made by a AAA developer with a lot of money and resources" basically is like saying that this Toyota Camry would be the BEST CAR EVER if it was made by Ferrari.

This game is nothing close to Ultima Online other than skill points. Ultima Online's skillset was one that involved thought, preparation, quick reaction time, and more. MO is a button mashing fest that is highly impacted by poor lag/netcode optimizations, a LOT of luck, and horrible mechanics. It's not even isometric third person like UO, so there really is no comparison. UO involved combinations of attacks (ie, Harm, Explosion, Energy Bolt, Mini Heal, Halberd hit, etc), where MO is again -- basically a button masher largely impacted by very poor optimizations.

I have learned in a professional capacity that the ability to deliver an idea, organize a team around a set of ideas, have talent on board and recognize that talent and how to best extrapolate it is actually more important than the idea itself. Want to know why? Because a good team and good roadmap in software development actually leads to MORE GOOD IDEAS from within the team, because everybody strives to make it the best.

What you have in Mortal Online is a kid who thought that because he loved Ultima Online so much, that he would have his father bankroll the development of its "spiritual successor", despite him not having any knowledge of the software development world, hiring a lead programmer whose only claim to fame was making Unreal Mods, and his only experience HIMSELF was selling ads on gambling sites.

No, Mortal Online was *never* even close to the greatest MMO ever and as it stands right now, it's one of the longest lived farces of an excuse for an MMO that has ever been released, which only goes to show that a rich father can imagine his son to be anything he wants, for as long as he's willing to keep putting up cash. You know, kind of like Paris Hilton being an "actress".

  Ramanadjinn

Elite Member

Joined: 8/08/11
Posts: 1296

10/03/13 12:23:33 PM#35
Originally posted by Toferio

 

 

And I guess this is why this whole discussion is pointless.  There is nothing here i'm "not grasping."  it is simply a matter of me disagreeing that these things are objectively bad design.  Small scale examples of why something can lead to frustrating gameplay for some people at times just doesn't prove they are.  Not when I am claiming there is give and take to every method a developer might use when implementing a fast travel system.

My argument doesn't hinge on whether anyone enjoys a feature or not and i'm not the only one making blanket statements.  A lack of fast travel is bad game design is a blanket statement. 

And i'm sorry if you feel I ignore your arguments.  I read your entire post each time, and as I said before.  If I don't feel you've actually countered any argument i've made with a valid point I may just not address it here.  It is not out of spite but I don't wish to clutter the thread too much arguing over something that will have no resolution.  This is what usually happens when people argue over subjective things in the entertainment industry, there is no resolution.

 

  Rohn

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/02/08
Posts: 3739

10/03/13 12:32:42 PM#36
Originally posted by Ramanadjinn
Originally posted by Toferio

 

 

And I guess this is why this whole discussion is pointless.  There is nothing here i'm "not grasping."  it is simply a matter of me disagreeing that these things are objectively bad design.  Small scale examples of why something can lead to frustrating gameplay for some people at times just doesn't prove they are.  Not when I am claiming there is give and take to every method a developer might use when implementing a fast travel system.

My argument doesn't hinge on whether anyone enjoys a feature or not and i'm not the only one making blanket statements.  A lack of fast travel is bad game design is a blanket statement.

And i'm sorry if you feel I ignore your arguments.  I read your entire post each time, and as I said before.  If I don't feel you've actually countered any argument i've made with a valid point I may just not address it here.  It is not out of spite but I don't wish to clutter the thread too much arguing over something that will have no resolution.  This is what usually happens when people argue over subjective things in the entertainment industry, there is no resolution.

 

 

Absolutely.  The argument over fast travel as an aspect of game design is a matter of subjective opinion, and as such, cannot be argued to a black and white "fact".

The lack of fast travel in the game is one of the things that gives MO it's overall flavor.  It is basic to the game's design.  Some people like that factor being incorporated into the game, some don't.  There's no way to please everyone.

Personally, I think easy, constant fast travel in games has hurt the overall world feel in those games.  That's just me, and I don't expect everyone to agree.  I'm glad it's not an element in MO, though, because it's one of the elements I really like about it.

Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.

  Slapshot1188

Elite Member

Joined: 5/06/07
Posts: 4096

10/03/13 1:10:30 PM#37
Originally posted by Shyatic

Had to reply to this because it's a ridiculous premise.

Having a great idea is *easy*. Lots of people have great ideas, lots of people can imagine worlds beyond compare, lots of people can think up things that nobody else does.

DELIVERY is what makes the difference. Mortal Online could *never* have been the best MMORPG ever because it was not started by the best development team ever. Simple as that.

The premise that "If it were made by a AAA developer with a lot of money and resources" basically is like saying that this Toyota Camry would be the BEST CAR EVER if it was made by Ferrari.

This game is nothing close to Ultima Online other than skill points. Ultima Online's skillset was one that involved thought, preparation, quick reaction time, and more. MO is a button mashing fest that is highly impacted by poor lag/netcode optimizations, a LOT of luck, and horrible mechanics. It's not even isometric third person like UO, so there really is no comparison. UO involved combinations of attacks (ie, Harm, Explosion, Energy Bolt, Mini Heal, Halberd hit, etc), where MO is again -- basically a button masher largely impacted by very poor optimizations.

I have learned in a professional capacity that the ability to deliver an idea, organize a team around a set of ideas, have talent on board and recognize that talent and how to best extrapolate it is actually more important than the idea itself. Want to know why? Because a good team and good roadmap in software development actually leads to MORE GOOD IDEAS from within the team, because everybody strives to make it the best.

What you have in Mortal Online is a kid who thought that because he loved Ultima Online so much, that he would have his father bankroll the development of its "spiritual successor", despite him not having any knowledge of the software development world, hiring a lead programmer whose only claim to fame was making Unreal Mods, and his only experience HIMSELF was selling ads on gambling sites.

No, Mortal Online was *never* even close to the greatest MMO ever and as it stands right now, it's one of the longest lived farces of an excuse for an MMO that has ever been released, which only goes to show that a rich father can imagine his son to be anything he wants, for as long as he's willing to keep putting up cash. You know, kind of like Paris Hilton being an "actress".

ABSOLUTELY!  This is why I always took people to task for saying "Yeah it sucks now but it has POTENTIAL".

 

Every single game could POTENTIALLY be great if X, Y, and Z happened. Even disasters like WarZ..  or MO.   Greatness however is not measured by what "could have happened"...

 

That is actually how we measure failure.  Failure to reach its potential and thus wasting it.

 

 

 

"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

  Toferio

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/26/09
Posts: 1456

10/03/13 1:44:08 PM#38
Originally posted by Rohn
Originally posted by Ramanadjinn
Originally posted by Toferio

 

 

And I guess this is why this whole discussion is pointless.  There is nothing here i'm "not grasping."  it is simply a matter of me disagreeing that these things are objectively bad design.  Small scale examples of why something can lead to frustrating gameplay for some people at times just doesn't prove they are.  Not when I am claiming there is give and take to every method a developer might use when implementing a fast travel system.

My argument doesn't hinge on whether anyone enjoys a feature or not and i'm not the only one making blanket statements.  A lack of fast travel is bad game design is a blanket statement.

And i'm sorry if you feel I ignore your arguments.  I read your entire post each time, and as I said before.  If I don't feel you've actually countered any argument i've made with a valid point I may just not address it here.  It is not out of spite but I don't wish to clutter the thread too much arguing over something that will have no resolution.  This is what usually happens when people argue over subjective things in the entertainment industry, there is no resolution.

 

 

Absolutely.  The argument over fast travel as an aspect of game design is a matter of subjective opinion, and as such, cannot be argued to a black and white "fact".

The lack of fast travel in the game is one of the things that gives MO it's overall flavor.  It is basic to the game's design.  Some people like that factor being incorporated into the game, some don't.  There's no way to please everyone.

MO is not even relevant to the argument because of its small map :p

  Vexus_X

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/23/09
Posts: 38

10/07/13 1:54:58 PM#39
Originally posted by Toferio
Minecraft, hardcore? Are you freaking serious? You are mixing everything into same pile. DayZ, like Demons's Souls, has challenging hardcore design. Games like MO and EoC (I think) have pain in the rear hardcore design. There is no challenge to it, just annoyance and waste of time, as per examples above. Did you entirely miss the last two sentences of the paragraph you are quoting? I am all in for a challenging game, but walking for hours across the map just to meet with a friend is not a challenge, it is an annoyance and the sooner you "hardcore" fans understand it, the sooner we will have an awesome, challenging game. I can't wait for it either, but it has to be well designed. 

Yes, Minecraft at its roots is a hardcore game.  It is harsh and unforgiving.  Nothing is handed to you.  You have to work for everything you do.  There is no fast travel, and if you are out of position it could take hours to reach your friends.  Of course, it is casual to jump in and start mining.  But consider the end-game, where you have players now with years invested into their world, shaping it to be something spectacular.  It is a huge amount of work to make that happen - nothing is given to you for free - and all those blocks each placed by a person, each with some effort behind it, makes it hardcore.  Casual games remove the semblance of 'work' from gameplay.  They just make it fun i.e. Guild Wars 2.  Have fun, but don't work, don't invest in the character or the world.  That is the difference.

 

Walking for hours IS a challenge, and is a lot of fun... I have to take a step back and remind you we are talking about hardcore games here.  MO is a hardcore game, and that is where we are posting.  It is completely subjective, as others have noted, but please keep in mind that we have been given games with instant teleportation to anywhere in the game world.  We know how it works and there are those of us who feel it degrades the game.

Your whole approach when you think of 'walking for hours to meet with your friends to finally enjoy the content' is flawed.  If you think that 'doing the content' is the reason for playing a hardcore game you are wrong.  The content is the people in the game with you.  This is why the games are so harsh, because people are harsh, and so most of the time you try to avoid random people in hardcore games.  The content then becomes scarce, and you look around thinking what kind of instances or dungeons or NPCs there are to interact with, and fail completely at understanding the game.

The reason 'walking for hours' is fun is because it is meaningful, as I said before.  It is because if you walk for hours to a rare location and set up shop with a few friends, you know you have the advantage over anyone else coming to that area the longer you are in that area.  It will take any single person hours to find you, and take their group hours of walking to come assault your location, and as such it is meaningful to have those encounters.  You know when you see someone way off in nowheresville that it is a rare occurrence, and needs to be treated with some respect; if he is more skilled than you, you might lose everything.  Or, if you are lying in wait with your friends to ambush the one passerby-per-week, you may gain all that poor soul had.  You may start a large conflict from such a thing, or end up never hearing from that player again... who knows.

What is boring, is grinding NPC mobs in the middle of a field, engaging some frequent but random passerby of the enemy faction which has been predetermined for you, and having his friend log in randomly and fly to the location to help in the matter of a minute or two.  What is the 'meaning' in that except to put you all back on the grind?

 

I have been playing Salem a lot recently, and it achieves this kind of 'run for hours to meet with friends' by making the content the simple act of building or maintaining your town.  There are no dungeons, or boss monsters to kill.  Everything relies on the potential fatal permadeath interaction of other players into your game experience.  Why build a town where someone could come along and demolish much of it?  Because you too want to get to a point where you can come along and demolish someone else's town, and thus, there is a need to build a town to advance.  I never need to run for hours to meet with my friends; they are logged out around my town, and there is no reason to go off for miles for no reason, and so we become familiar with our local terrain and resources.  We all work to better the town to thus better ourselves, and in doing so it becomes fun when the game systems click in your mind.  Fun isn't determined by how many NPCs you were able to kill, no, the fun is determined by what you were able to achieve together as a group that left to your own devices would have taken an exponential amount of time.  The core of hardcore gaming exists in Salem.  I would argue some of its flaws actually lie in the ez-mode things such as the initial free-teleport to your friends, among other things.

 

Hardcore is not for everyone.  So if you want to hurry up and get to the 'content' then you need to go back to a casual game.  EVE is a hardcore game where current players are half a decade invested into massive conglomerates.  That is the potential in a hardcore game which cannot happen in GW2, WoW, COD, BF4, or any other casual game we could care to talk about.  Hardcore really means 'meaning'.  Each action, each choice, each movement left right forward or backward, means something in the large scope of the entire game.  That is something we crave when playing any game, it just gets masked by faking you into thinking that killing 100x monsters has some kind of meaning besides allowing you to see the next 'content' sooner.  That is why we call it a Themepark MMO; stand in line at the spawning location of mobs until you can get on the 'ride' which is the main boss and say you've rode the Great Awesome Raid Dungeon!

  Zeeraha

Novice Member

Joined: 12/07/12
Posts: 63

10/16/13 11:11:01 AM#40
Originally posted by Shyatic

Had to reply to this because it's a ridiculous premise.

Having a great idea is *easy*. Lots of people have great ideas, lots of people can imagine worlds beyond compare, lots of people can think up things that nobody else does.

DELIVERY is what makes the difference. Mortal Online could *never* have been the best MMORPG ever because it was not started by the best development team ever. Simple as that.

The premise that "If it were made by a AAA developer with a lot of money and resources" basically is like saying that this Toyota Camry would be the BEST CAR EVER if it was made by Ferrari.

This game is nothing close to Ultima Online other than skill points. Ultima Online's skillset was one that involved thought, preparation, quick reaction time, and more. MO is a button mashing fest that is highly impacted by poor lag/netcode optimizations, a LOT of luck, and horrible mechanics. It's not even isometric third person like UO, so there really is no comparison. UO involved combinations of attacks (ie, Harm, Explosion, Energy Bolt, Mini Heal, Halberd hit, etc), where MO is again -- basically a button masher largely impacted by very poor optimizations.

I have learned in a professional capacity that the ability to deliver an idea, organize a team around a set of ideas, have talent on board and recognize that talent and how to best extrapolate it is actually more important than the idea itself. Want to know why? Because a good team and good roadmap in software development actually leads to MORE GOOD IDEAS from within the team, because everybody strives to make it the best.

What you have in Mortal Online is a kid who thought that because he loved Ultima Online so much, that he would have his father bankroll the development of its "spiritual successor", despite him not having any knowledge of the software development world, hiring a lead programmer whose only claim to fame was making Unreal Mods, and his only experience HIMSELF was selling ads on gambling sites.

No, Mortal Online was *never* even close to the greatest MMO ever and as it stands right now, it's one of the longest lived farces of an excuse for an MMO that has ever been released, which only goes to show that a rich father can imagine his son to be anything he wants, for as long as he's willing to keep putting up cash. You know, kind of like Paris Hilton being an "actress".

I see good starting points, but why all the ad hominem arguments? If one looks previous SV's financial reports and current investments, you can see there are many sources of financing, largest owner/investor of SV is Nordnet pension fund, I couldn't find any connection to Henrik's father.

Considering MO's gaming development, due to recent events, I believe it will live up to grow closer to starting vision. Like previously said, due to developer's inexperience and financial constraints, it will take some time, but there is a chance that it will eventually be quite good game. Even if MO never makes profitable game, why wouldn't it survive if there is enough people that can financially support it. Maybe even as a non profit project.

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