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WildStar

WildStar 

General Discussion  » WildStar's Gaffney on why the game isn't free-to-play

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88 posts found
  Wighty

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/10/08
Posts: 615

 
OP  9/23/13 4:57:28 PM#1

What a great read!

 

I sincerely hope this F2P bubble is over and we can have a sub renaissance! keeps the 70-80% leechers to put up or shut up!

 

http://www.pcgamesn.com/wildstar-producer-exaggerated-death-subscription-mmos-free-plays-not-magic-bullet

What are your other Hobbies?

Gaming is Dirt Cheap compared to this...

  Yalexy

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 1045

9/23/13 5:40:07 PM#2

As it looks currently, I'm definately going to play Wildstar, because they seem to favour the more "hardcore" again and don't try to get just as many players on launch as possible.

I like the old-school raiding and I like a level playingfield based on a subscription. SUre the CREDD-system givees some advancements to players willing to spend a few more bucks, but EvE Online has schown that this system actually does work.

If there's some steady 250k subscribers after 6 month into the game, then it's allready a success, if you've developed your game with those numbers in mind. No need to cater to the mass of casual players or freeloaders, who wouldn't get to end-game raiding anyways, becasue they can't invest time and sweat into the game.

Count me in as a happy subscriber.

  User Deleted
9/23/13 5:48:41 PM#3

Whenever I see a sub these days and no comprehensive trial option mentioned from the game from the moment they said sub only I think: Either "This is bad enough they need to trick people into investing and hope to get a WoW ball going"  or "Wow, wonder how long ti'll they decide that it's better for the people they screwed over by paying money for the game and a sub that the game should be F2P.".

Btw OP F2P isn't a bubble :) , it's been around for about the same amount of time as the 15$/month deal so can it lest we get into the delightful conversation of: How is paying for something you can get for free a smart choice?

  azmundai

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/18/10
Posts: 1424

9/23/13 5:53:04 PM#4

I don't think it will be a renaissance so to speak, but rather two different models evolving side by side.

LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already :)

  User Deleted
9/23/13 5:54:18 PM#5
A good game is best experienced with a sub. A bad game can survive longer F2P. It's all about a dev's confidence in their product. Kudos to WildStar!
  flizzer

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/10/12
Posts: 1371

9/23/13 5:56:35 PM#6
And I'll try Wildstar when it goes f2p....
  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 6122

9/23/13 6:00:21 PM#7

He really didn't say anything he hasn't said before.  We'll see how that works out for them. Personally, I don't see it going how he plans.

I don't think there are enough people interested in paying a monthly bill to rent a game (to the tune of approximately $200 per year) to keep a bunch of AAA games alive.  A single sub isn't that big of a deal.  A sub for every family member or multiple games starts to add up quick.

Curse you AquaScum!

  Wighty

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/10/08
Posts: 615

 
OP  9/23/13 6:13:14 PM#8
Originally posted by Dihoru

Whenever I see a sub these days and no comprehensive trial option mentioned from the game from the moment they said sub only I think: Either "This is bad enough they need to trick people into investing and hope to get a WoW ball going"  or "Wow, wonder how long ti'll they decide that it's better for the people they screwed over by paying money for the game and a sub that the game should be F2P.".

Btw OP F2P isn't a bubble :) , it's been around for about the same amount of time as the 15$/month deal so can it lest we get into the delightful conversation of: How is paying for something you can get for free a smart choice?

Nowadays, trial = open beta... These games when they initially launch have no need for trials... All the early adopters will flood the servers (as we have most recently seen in FF14 and only when the need is there to generate interest they can offer trials.

Trials at launch just equate to server bloat and lag for those willing to shell out for the box/sub. etc.

You are correct again in stating that indeed, "why pay for something when you can get it for free" however as it is outlined in the article, Subs= stable predictable income, and as long as the slow morphine drip of content trickles in it is easier to forecast out, also stated is that 70-80% play for free (typical 80/20 rule) and how is it fair for the 20% (if that)

Sub also (typically) means even playing field... meaning no (subtle pay to win elements) boosters, XP pots, cash shop ammo on the fly, things that most people turn a blind eye to but are clear pay to win mechanics when you all start on the same day and some one plays the same time as you is higher because of said boosts, etc.

 

I know full well the history of F2P it is more of a "western bubble", the origins of this a you are correct were around from the beginning or at least the early stages of Korean MMO's because of the rampant piracy and also the ease of monitizing a culture that actually embraces pay 2 win.

 

Look if it goes F2P at some point because it launches with 2 weeks worth of content like FF14, then, yeah... they should have planned the game for more longevity than story/cut scenes that most players just tab/space/click through just to be "the first"

What are your other Hobbies?

Gaming is Dirt Cheap compared to this...

  User Deleted
9/23/13 6:28:42 PM#9
Originally posted by Wighty
Originally posted by Dihoru

Whenever I see a sub these days and no comprehensive trial option mentioned from the game from the moment they said sub only I think: Either "This is bad enough they need to trick people into investing and hope to get a WoW ball going"  or "Wow, wonder how long ti'll they decide that it's better for the people they screwed over by paying money for the game and a sub that the game should be F2P.".

Btw OP F2P isn't a bubble :) , it's been around for about the same amount of time as the 15$/month deal so can it lest we get into the delightful conversation of: How is paying for something you can get for free a smart choice?

Nowadays, trial = open beta... These games when they initially launch have no need for trials... All the early adopters will flood the servers (as we have most recently seen in FF14 and only when the need is there to generate interest they can offer trials.

Trials at launch just equate to server bloat and lag for those willing to shell out for the box/sub. etc.

You are correct again in stating that indeed, "why pay for something when you can get it for free" however as it is outlined in the article, Subs= stable predictable income, and as long as the slow morphine drip of content trickles in it is easier to forecast out, also stated is that 70-80% play for free (typical 80/20 rule) and how is it fair for the 20% (if that)

Sub also (typically) means even playing field... meaning no (subtle pay to win elements) boosters, XP pots, cash shop ammo on the fly, things that most people turn a blind eye to but are clear pay to win mechanics when you all start on the same day and some one plays the same time as you is higher because of said boosts, etc.

 

I know full well the history of F2P it is more of a "western bubble", the origins of this a you are correct were around from the beginning or at least the early stages of Korean MMO's because of the rampant piracy and also the ease of monitizing a culture that actually embraces pay 2 win.

 

Look if it goes F2P at some point because it launches with 2 weeks worth of content like FF14, then, yeah... they should have planned the game for more longevity than story/cut scenes that most players just tab/space/click through just to be "the first"

To avoid server bloat give priority to paying users and have trials time limited but only limited to time actually spent in the game so this way the wait isn't actually robbing you of your time in-game and the guys who pay get in first.

Winning in an MMO is a matter of perception, if you want to be the best of the best in a skill based game that doesn't sell power then you are not gonna be forced to P2W however if you want to be the first to do something in-game and the game has XP pots then yes you're forced to pay to win in your own goals.

F2P in western terms isn't really a bubble because there aren't only the same amount of people playing F2P games now as there were playing P2P ones before. In fact F2P is drawing allot more people in, for good or bad, and your ratios of 20/80 are in terms of habitual spenders, out of that 80+ % quite a few of them are burst spenders, getting cosmetics or quality of life things when money affords them en mass. True it isn't stable income but it does also give incentive to the developers to be more competitive with other games to keep their player numbers up (thus keeping the overall income up factoring habitual and burst spenders in). In P2P games stagnation is innevitable due to developer or publisher hubris. It is innevitable and in most cases totally unavoidable, I only really know of one developer that got slapped back into sense by their players and that was CCP but they're a fairly small self-publishing developer.

The problem is though with P2P games at the current level of market demand for quality in terms of content and gameplay and graphics is that they simply cannot keep up especially when some F2P games give out fairly regular updates with content of good quality while P2P games struggle (this is again mostly due to the more stringent demands on P2P games to be "worth the investment and rent", a F2P game isn't expected to deliver much unless it is based on a specific IP thus it can only perform well even if the content isn't technically as good as the P2P's). It's a losing battle from my point of view because a majority of players prefer F2P these days either due to financial reasons (15-25 year old demographic in particular) or due to apparent quality over initial investment + rent ( this category usually evolves into the habitual spender especially if the F2P game isn't a ripoff P2W type).

 

  Nadia

Tipster

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11792

9/24/13 8:41:47 AM#10

i don't like being "locked out" out of my characters unless im paying a monthly sub

I will definitely try Wildstar at launch - and look forward it

 

but

I don't know if WS is going to have enough content to warrant a monthly sub for non raiders

  lp7p

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/13
Posts: 6

9/29/13 7:56:54 AM#11
There are some pretty good arguments here for free to play vs subscription.  I prefer subscription games.  The so called free games are not free and I believe if those who beg to differ with me will honestly look at there cash out lays they will see that they are spending way more money on their so called free game than they would on a subscription.   For instance with a subscription you get the standard inventory, vault, mail, auction house, content etc.  In the free games you have to purchase these items and some of those purchases are pretty hefty.
  Synns77

Novice Member

Joined: 3/15/12
Posts: 124

9/29/13 8:23:43 AM#12
Wildstar isn't my most anticipated release that would be elder scrolls, but both are going sub which I much prefer, would rather pay for the whole game monthly rather than have lots of hidden costs like the majority of f2p have. So the fact both of these have chose this model means I will try them both, obviously in the long term only my favorite of the 2 will remain my subbed game.
  nerovipus32

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/15/11
Posts: 2734

9/29/13 8:27:02 AM#13
It will be f2p within a year, the game is already designed for it.
  Mr.Kujo

Novice Member

Joined: 5/23/12
Posts: 392

“Discussion is impossible with someone who claims not to seek the truth, but already to possess it.”

9/29/13 9:11:16 AM#14

Originally posted by Roxtarr
A good game is best experienced with a sub. A bad game can survive longer F2P. It's all about a dev's confidence in their product. Kudos to WildStar!

Would make more sense other way around. You risk more being F2P since there is no guarantee you will get any money from a player. Everyone can get into your game and check it out before deciding to play it for longer, you need to have content that will pull people in and keep them entertained. While in P2P player needs to pay up front, it is safer. And then after playing for a month player feels that the first payment was some kind of commitment that he doesn't want to waste, and that can be a reason to pay more.

It would seem that F2P is a more bold move, and P2P is something a bad game could pick, to secure some of the money spent at the beginning before people realize the game is bad.

 

Originally posted by lp7p
There are some pretty good arguments here for free to play vs subscription.  I prefer subscription games.  The so called free games are not free and I believe if those who beg to differ with me will honestly look at there cash out lays they will see that they are spending way more money on their so called free game than they would on a subscription.   For instance with a subscription you get the standard inventory, vault, mail, auction house, content etc.  In the free games you have to purchase these items and some of those purchases are pretty hefty.

You know yourself that is not true. It all depends on individuals.

Also the point you make works against your own preference. You suggest that people spend more money on F2P so that would mean that F2P system is better, because it brings more profit for company and helps maintaining the game. So I don't really know if I should agree with your point, or disagree with your preference...

 

  furbans

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/10/13
Posts: 970

9/29/13 10:52:07 AM#15

And yet every P2P MMO out there has gone F2P or B2P.  AoC, Rift, SWTOR, DDO, LotRO, TERA, EQ 1&2, TSW.... see the pattern?  History states that unless WS is the next WoW (which it most certainly won't be) it will be a F2P or B2P or some hybrid in a years time.  And with EQN being F2P they are even harder pressed to produce a game that justifies being P2P, granted mechanics are different but if given the choice of cheap free entertainment vs expensive when the satisfaction remains the same then you can bet that people will stick with the cheaper one in most cases.  Every new MMO comes out as P2P is to get those impulsive buyers and rake in sub revenue until sub dip to a certain point then transition to a F2P or B2P.

Very few MMOs stand on their own, EVE being one and that is because the Devs are dedicated to their vision, PFO and CU I can see em also sustaining their subs as they are targeting their niche crowd of customers in mind.  PFO intends to start VERY small and grow much like how EVE evolved and like CU will have a major focus on community that the vast majority of MMOs ignore. 

WS while looks nice but isn't anything that even remotely innovative or revolutionary.  I'll try it when they offer a free trial or limited game time invite from active players like the scrolls or resurrection in WoW and after some user reviews.  I'm done paying $90+ on a gamble for a game where if I want to revisit it at a later date I have to shell out more cash.

There are some major flaws in that article.  Like for instance he completely ommits GW's expansions and cash shop, that is a major part of their revenue.  Also Carbine completely misses the whole mechanics of PLEX.  In game currency (ISK) is ALWAYS the central focal point of all things in EVE.  ISK is a core mechanic that is nonexistant in all themepark games.  WoW I had over 10k gold that I really have absolutely zero use for as everything is earned though BoP gear.  I highly doubt WS will have an open market gear like EVE but will much more in line with traditional themepark BoP MMOs which god forbid you lose gear or the hate will be intense.

I like what I see in WS but I am weary of P2P MMOs that don't offer any sort of trial and as I stated earlier, history dictates that P2P MMO by the vast majority go F2P.  Regardless, I prolly will spend my money on PFO if they open up the Early Enrollment again as I completely agree with what they're trying to do with creating a strong community.  I want more sandbox games and less themepark with WS looks to be a very nice themepark game.

 

  FlawSGI

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/14/10
Posts: 1431

All of history is a lie. The truth depends on who does the listening, and who does the telling...

9/29/13 11:01:28 AM#16
 And to this day I still have yet to see a developer who tries to justify a sub explain why $15 is the cost of playing. I understand his logic and all but the same can be said for a sub MMO and not knowing when the money is going to dry up because it happens in P2P when customers leave in droves. While I am not a supporter of F2P, I don't immidiately jump on board and think a game is better because it has a sub attached to it and some PR BS explaining why that makes this game superior to others out there. I was hoping the article would touch on the standard monthly price tag but developers never feel the need to explain that since we are all lemmings anyways.

RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.

  skeaser

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Joined: 6/13/07
Posts: 3710

Don't die mad, just die.

9/29/13 11:11:08 AM#17
I'm fine with subs. The $15 mark is $0.50 a day, less than a soda costs.


A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.
-Friedrich Nietzsche

  Mr.Kujo

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Joined: 5/23/12
Posts: 392

“Discussion is impossible with someone who claims not to seek the truth, but already to possess it.”

9/29/13 1:22:16 PM#18
Originally posted by skeaser
I'm fine with subs. The $15 mark is $0.50 a day, less than a soda costs.

Does paying $0.50, $0.30, or $0.01 a day makes it any less wrong when it is not justified?

If I can get as many gameplay from any new mmo that came out last year, as from any new single player, then it is reasonable that I shouldn't pay anything more than a price of a single player for it.

You can pay $50 for a doughnut if you don't have anything better to do with your money, but it doesn't change the fact that doughnut is not worth that much.

Why would I give even $0.01 to anyone if I think I shouldn't. It is not about quantity, you pay for something.

  RizelStar

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Joined: 8/12/11
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We all breathe and we all die.

9/29/13 1:27:04 PM#19

It's a great game and I'll play it once it goes b2p.

 

No game will or has ever been worth P2P.(To the majority as of late, EvE gives out free expansions which makes 15 dollars a month make sense, plus they hit their audience and is sandbox, WoW made it into the correct time frame of which Subs where needed)

 

Unless you count two things...the time of which it came out and if the devs actually needed 15 dollars from each player per month. Until P2P turns into 5 dollars a month or 50 dollars per year like PSN online or something, then p2p will be closer to success than it has been. F2P is no better of course but neither is p2p. Thanks and take care.

 

Edited: Also I'd play a non p2w that's not reliant on cash shop(like recent MMOs) before I cough up money per month for a game that will be free soon(6-20 months is soon for me) or buy to play with a cash shop that is the same as p2p cash shops any way. Shall not leave out the fact that it isn't because games suck that they are not p2p or go f2p but it's because more and more people are coming to the conclusion of what I said earlier.

 

If I was wrong we'd have more examples other than WoW and EvE of which made it in the right timeframe with less competitors as well. Another thing is that  Wildstar is a great game, definately not aiming for a niche player base like Camelot Unchained and etc. The other delusional aspect is p2p pumps out content much faster, bullshit as well, but I'll just let that train of thought remain as  I can't even change it any way ha ha, it's sad though. In before Final Fantasy 2.0 as an example...no just no...I'll play that in the future as well, but I think those devs will shut it down before letting it go F2P, which I doubt it'll shut down so I guess I will never play it as well.

P2P could co exist though that's true it can, just not at 15 dollars per month for one game. 

 

Disclaimer: All games I mentioned are not failures and I never wish for a game to fail nor do I think it'll fail. I even believe when a game changes it's payment model that the game itself is not a failure, just the payment model itself is and why it's honestly flawed.

 

I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.

I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.

P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)

Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.

  Fion

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9/30/13 9:42:33 PM#20

I just don't see myself paying to play an MMOG, no matter how good it may be, that comes with speratic content updates that are overshadowed by yearly expansions when I get expansion-quality content every two weeks in GW2 for.. free. Maybe F2P isn't quite as big as it could have been, but B2P so far has shown tremendous potential. The obvious example is Guild Wars 2, which despite the hate, has had a fantastic year. It both disproved that a non-sub MMOG can't be successful, but  it also disproves that a non-sub MMOG won't have enough content and won't release new content. GW2 releases high-quality content (hours and hours worth) every two weeks for free.. and they are quite profitable. Even without any paid advantages. (Pay 2 Win).

The articles example of City of Heroes is kinda bunk because CoX was killed off by its publisher. The idea that F2P hasn't worked out like expected, I think is wrong. There are asian MMOGs far larger than WoW that are F2P. I think they could find very good success here I, we just haven't been any really good, well polished F2P MMOGs released, and too many of them focus on Pay 2 Win. 

I personally expect that Wildstar is likely to follow the trend of 'P2P release that goes B2P/F2P' and I'll give it a shot when it does. However when MMOGs do that, they have some pretty big issues simply because the games are designed with the idea that time = money, so P2P games are notoriously slow, they take forever to do anything. Slow travel, hours of prep to do end-game content, even little things like how quickly you can craft or how long it takes to access ones bank or fill your bags are all designed to extend the gameplay experience in order to keep people playing and paying. Look at SWTOR, it's a horrid F2P game.. horrid. All kinds of arbitrary caps and limitations, limited content, UI, messages in chat you name it. If they designed for B2P or F2P from the start, it may well have been significantly more successful. Now I hear Wildstar is designed so that a transition to B/F2P wouldn't be so challenging, but I'll believe it when I see it.

In the end there is one gigantic, probably insurmountable problem with P2P games. They have to be better than the competition and give people a reason to leave characters they've put both hundreds of hours and thousands of $ into. The biggest reason no P2P MMOG has found any kind of real success is because none so far have been better at the game than World of Warcraft. The vast majority of MMOG players only play one MMOG at a time. If a new game on the block doesn't have the content, quality or fun to draw people away from their investment into WoW, it simply cannot succeed. It's the reason we have a whole generation of MMOGs that seem successful out the gate but after the free month turn into wastelands.

If Wildstar isn't as good as WoW, and even if it is better.. if it isn't amazing enough to pull people away from their very real investment into WoW and their characters, it simply cannot succeed as a P2P MMOG.

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