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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » RACE nothing more than cosmetic

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154 posts found
  aspekx

Novice Member

Joined: 12/24/05
Posts: 2197

9/21/13 9:33:38 PM#41

Logic and fantasy worlds ...

 

the only requirement is that the fantasy world is itself internally consistent.

 

that's it.

 

it doesn't need to be consistent with other versions of that world, or with any other world. it only needs to be consistent with itself to be believable.

 

if that is not the case for you then you are importing another world into the current world. and of course at that point they are going to contradict.

"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse

  ropenice

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/02/04
Posts: 585

9/21/13 9:44:58 PM#42
Originally posted by Ryowulf
Originally posted by xeniar

Could not care less about stats anyway.

I always play a warrior and if available always a Dwarf Nothing to do with stats but those but those 3 foot tall walls off steel are just awesome.

i however do care about stupid things as Oger rogues etc..

Why? What is a rogue? Someone focused more of offense than defense? 

In an ogre city having a ogre rogue sneaking around wouldn't seem that strange. Size is relative.  When small folks fight tall you end up with Yoda's lightsaber battle. Isn't that just as ridiculous?  Dwarves have a reach of what? A foot?  They look like tiny tyrannosaurus rexs trying to box, so wouldn't a dwarf fighter be just as silly?

He wins. Just for the Dwarf/T rex visual that is stuck in my head, he gets prize for best comment.

  User Deleted
9/21/13 11:34:40 PM#43
Again, I am not yet sure how strongly I feel about it but I can't shake the feeling that the choices I make in character creation should mean something, from race, class, and every other offered option on. Here, its seeming like pick an art set you like and run with it. Somehow I still miss options from older RPGs like choosing a zodiac sign, a deity, and maybe a trade skill and seeing that have an effect in game.
  Kyllien

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/13
Posts: 315

9/22/13 5:23:17 AM#44
Originally posted by thinlizzy

So, given the devs have said they dont want any choice a player makes when making a character to limit them from being effective in any role, we must conclude that RACE will be no more than a cosmetic choice.

No racial factions

No racial limitations

No racial variation (that impacts on game play)

No racial advantage

In short race is about as relevant as choosing the color of your underpants.

 

For me this is a big disappointment.

You are confusing race and class.  What they said is that any player should be able to achieve any class while playing the game.  They did not say anything about how factions would play a role other then going back to the reveal where choices you make can most certainly effect what classes you can choose.

Races can be completely different and still be able to train in any class.

Races can be faction driven and still be able to train in any class

Racial limitations and advantages should only be cosmetic anyway to prevent a server full of dwarfs or elves.

In short racial variation can still play a significant role even if you can train and eventually learn every class.

 

  User Deleted
9/22/13 5:24:20 AM#45
Originally posted by Drakynn
Originally posted by Dihoru
Sandbox equals choices, the more the better, anyone that says races should have class limitations should pull their imagination limiter out ( example: a dwarven mage could rely on rune based magic instead of mana based magic, basically instead of chanting some latin shit and using his mana he draws symbols in some fashion that achieve the same thing, they both have to have the same degree of limitation in damage/healting/w/e potentials but yeah two different flavours for the same thing, also to the numptee that said midget races shouldn't be warriors: think lighter armour, no large two handed weapons but significant bonuses to dodging thus allowing you to be a warrior and with slight work that agility can make you more useful than a lumbering ogre warrior).

Choices are great...unless they have no consequence or meaning then they are pointless.

as for your examples the information in the OP negates most of them as the only variation between races will be cosmetic that means no stat variation between classes due to race...some of what you say may come to pass as cosmetic animations but nothing that impacts game play.

But this is the way the majority seem to want it because they want everything available to them on one characteras ASAP and the majority usually wins.

It does however seem to be a strange way to start a "Life of Consequences"

Your choices give you consequences you have to deal with and having all classes open to all races does not reduce the risk of consequences it merely shifts them more towards the immediate present rather than the more removed near past (ex: you, as say that rat-like race, chose a warrior, for obvious reasons you don't start off with high strength but you want to play a warrior so you have a choice: either put more emphasis on items to enhance that stat or use your natural stats as a way to play a warrior in a novel way, think of it as playing a woad warrior instead of a flat out champion, check Age of Empires 2 for a translation if you don't know what I mean).

The information the OP has is not factual, it is hearsay even if said hearsay is from a developer until you see the system in action you cannot provide factual information (games evolve or de-evolve from their early builds and by what I know EQN is at best a late alpha game so God knows what they might shift around), you can however state opinion based guesses.

  Ehliya

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/13/06
Posts: 191

9/22/13 8:38:41 AM#46
Originally posted by Adalwulff

Maybe this is their idea of the ultimate sandbox

Where anyone can be anything, even if it doesn't make sense....

This reminds me of the SWG Jedi fiasco.  They went from making Jedi special and noteworthy (since they were hard to achieve and therefore relatively rare) to putting a light saber in the hand of everyone.

Giving everything to everyone results in a mushy sameness.  Since no one has to accept the consequences of making choices (good and bad) ultimately choosing itself loses meaning and people stop caring.

*sigh*

  Comaf

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/13/10
Posts: 1146

I want an mmorpg where pvp matters, my enemies are not my race or class, and community matters.

9/22/13 8:49:08 AM#47
Originally posted by thinlizzy

So, given the devs have said they dont want any choice a player makes when making a character to limit them from being effective in any role, we must conclude that RACE will be no more than a cosmetic choice.

No racial factions

No racial limitations

No racial variation (that impacts on game play)

No racial advantage

In short race is about as relevant as choosing the color of your underpants.

 

For me this is a big disappointment.

This is the standard and has been for some time.  It's a big part of why there is:

 

1.  ZERO immersion

2.  Very little long term dedication by players (see #1)

3.  Lazy and unimaginative on the part of the developers

4.  FOLKS what does this tell you?  How does the industry see you?  As intelligent and in depth, or moronic?

5.  And finally, yet again they took the RPG out of MMO.  This is y default an mmoVG (massively multi player online video game).  Not sure I'm correct?  Read the lore, then when Frontiers is patched in (pvp), and you use your elf to kill your first elf...

 

OP, hopefully see you in Elder Scrolls Online

/salute

  Latronus

Novice Member

Joined: 1/10/08
Posts: 718

PC is not political correctness, it means Political Cowardice!

9/22/13 8:51:30 AM#48
Originally posted by thinlizzy

So, given the devs have said they dont want any choice a player makes when making a character to limit them from being effective in any role, we must conclude that RACE will be no more than a cosmetic choice.

Deal in absolutes much?

No racial factions

Why can't they?  Factions can be earned, both god and bad.

No racial limitations

Now, why should every single individual in a specific race be good or bad, not be able to wear plate or swing a two-handed sword? 

No racial variation (that impacts on game play)

Having this in a game means that players will be boxed into making a specific race for a specific build or the elite won't accept you because you must have been stupid to pick a human to be a ranger because you get 10 additional Agility points at max level...

No racial advantage

Why couldn't they do this?  EQ2 has them and they aren't game breaking at all. 

In short race is about as relevant as choosing the color of your underpants.

I don't know about you, but I don't spend any time at all picking my underpants color, I just grab the pair on top. 

For me this is a big disappointment.

While I believe you have a right to enjoy games with the features you prefer, this may not be the game for you, but then again, if you wait and follow the game things may change.  You are jumping to conclusions here and assuming much as far as I know.

 

  Comaf

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/13/10
Posts: 1146

I want an mmorpg where pvp matters, my enemies are not my race or class, and community matters.

9/22/13 9:04:00 AM#49
Originally posted by Latronus
 
OP
First Responder
Me
 
Originally posted by thinlizzy

So, given the devs have said they dont want any choice a player makes when making a character to limit them from being effective in any role, we must conclude that RACE will be no more than a cosmetic choice.

Deal in absolutes much?

No factions means no immersion, no believability, no competition between fantasy cultures hence nothing of political importance going on to make this game feel alive.  Watch Lord of the Rings much?  Imagine this lackluster variation on fantasy being applied to that story.  The Hobbits would pvp each other in the Frontier, and Elvish wouldn't exist, Legolas wouldn't have ridiculous dexterity, and Gimli would be college educated.  It would be nonsense.

No racial factions

Why can't they?  Factions can be earned, both god and bad.

Real factions, not, "Hey I'm 10 and don't want to be 'stuck' learning how to increase my social skills to work with my realm.  I want to bounce and hop and jump between any group of people as I see fit cause you know, I'm just a kid!"

No racial limitations

Now, why should every single individual in a specific race be good or bad, not be able to wear plate or swing a two-handed sword? 

Why should a navy seal be good at underwater demolitions, or the president of the United States be a good public speaker?  Ever see what happens when our president is god-awful at speaking? (W. Bush anyone?).  Okay, so that's not fantasy.  Without variation, movies like Star Wars and the Lord of the RIngs would be so damned bland that no one would have cared about the characters.  This is a pattern we often see in mmorpgs today where people play and quit due to lack of interest.  This birthed the F2P concept, because the theory was that a crap game could still make profit out of the 1 out of 100 players that actually used the cash shop.

No racial variation (that impacts on game play)

Having this in a game means that players will be boxed into making a specific race for a specific build or the elite won't accept you because you must have been stupid to pick a human to be a ranger because you get 10 additional Agility points at max level...

Why have race then?  What is the point of the RPG in mmo?  Why not just have this be Gauntlet Online (Elf needs food!)...why even play an mmorpg for that matter?  Isn't there something on PS3 that might offer more than this?  Racial gameplay is huge.  Ask any Olympic long distance runner what they think of Zaire or Kenya.  Again, this watering down to appease the masses so they don't cry over having to think too much...is disgusting. 

No racial advantage

Why couldn't they do this?  EQ2 has them and they aren't game breaking at all. 

In short race is about as relevant as choosing the color of your underpants.

I don't know about you, but I don't spend any time at all picking my underpants color, I just grab the pair on top. 

See above for why variation and differences matter.

For me this is a big disappointment.

While I believe you have a right to enjoy games with the features you prefer, this may not be the game for you, but then again, if you wait and follow the game things may change.  You are jumping to conclusions here and assuming much as far as I know.

 Here's where I will agree.  This is NOT the game for the OP.  This game is meant to cater to a player base that has zero interest in variation and character difference.  There's no roleplay here, no immersion.  This is just another video game where lots of folks can log in.  In a year, I doubt anyone will even care this game ever came out.

 

 

 

  thinlizzy

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/04/13
Posts: 69

 
OP  9/22/13 10:13:22 AM#50

Some posters have suggested I am jumping to conclusions.I assure you this is not the case.

Watch the round table on racial class limitations.

Its not just their indication that they dont want to have ANY limitations on class/race, its the suggestion that NO choice a player makes when they start the game should prevent that player form being competitive in any role they wish to with that character.

 

As someone said above this may not be the game for me...

To date it is looking like you are correct.

Which I find disappointing as many of the core technologies are fantastic.

 

I have had enough of flavorless MMOs where choices have no consequences.

Everyone is the same and all toons can be all things in all situations

  Kyllien

Novice Member

Joined: 3/22/13
Posts: 315

9/22/13 10:22:14 AM#51
Originally posted by Comaf
Originally posted by Latronus
 
OP
First Responder
Me
 
Originally posted by thinlizzy

So, given the devs have said they dont want any choice a player makes when making a character to limit them from being effective in any role, we must conclude that RACE will be no more than a cosmetic choice.

Deal in absolutes much?

No factions means no immersion, no believability, no competition between fantasy cultures hence nothing of political importance going on to make this game feel alive.  Watch Lord of the Rings much?  Imagine this lackluster variation on fantasy being applied to that story.  The Hobbits would pvp each other in the Frontier, and Elvish wouldn't exist, Legolas wouldn't have ridiculous dexterity, and Gimli would be college educated.  It would be nonsense.

No racial factions

Why can't they?  Factions can be earned, both god and bad.

Real factions, not, "Hey I'm 10 and don't want to be 'stuck' learning how to increase my social skills to work with my realm.  I want to bounce and hop and jump between any group of people as I see fit cause you know, I'm just a kid!"

No racial limitations

Now, why should every single individual in a specific race be good or bad, not be able to wear plate or swing a two-handed sword? 

Why should a navy seal be good at underwater demolitions, or the president of the United States be a good public speaker?  Ever see what happens when our president is god-awful at speaking? (W. Bush anyone?).  Okay, so that's not fantasy.  Without variation, movies like Star Wars and the Lord of the RIngs would be so damned bland that no one would have cared about the characters.  This is a pattern we often see in mmorpgs today where people play and quit due to lack of interest.  This birthed the F2P concept, because the theory was that a crap game could still make profit out of the 1 out of 100 players that actually used the cash shop.

No racial variation (that impacts on game play)

Having this in a game means that players will be boxed into making a specific race for a specific build or the elite won't accept you because you must have been stupid to pick a human to be a ranger because you get 10 additional Agility points at max level...

Why have race then?  What is the point of the RPG in mmo?  Why not just have this be Gauntlet Online (Elf needs food!)...why even play an mmorpg for that matter?  Isn't there something on PS3 that might offer more than this?  Racial gameplay is huge.  Ask any Olympic long distance runner what they think of Zaire or Kenya.  Again, this watering down to appease the masses so they don't cry over having to think too much...is disgusting. 

No racial advantage

Why couldn't they do this?  EQ2 has them and they aren't game breaking at all. 

In short race is about as relevant as choosing the color of your underpants.

I don't know about you, but I don't spend any time at all picking my underpants color, I just grab the pair on top. 

See above for why variation and differences matter.

For me this is a big disappointment.

While I believe you have a right to enjoy games with the features you prefer, this may not be the game for you, but then again, if you wait and follow the game things may change.  You are jumping to conclusions here and assuming much as far as I know.

 Here's where I will agree.  This is NOT the game for the OP.  This game is meant to cater to a player base that has zero interest in variation and character difference.  There's no roleplay here, no immersion.  This is just another video game where lots of folks can log in.  In a year, I doubt anyone will even care this game ever came out.

 

 

 

How does allowing every player the chance to learn and earn every class equal no racial differences?  Factions will play a huge role in the game so much so in fact that people that chose to do evil will not be able to become a Paladin.  This game will be all about choice. 

It is entirely possible that choosing to play an Ogre may mean that you can't learn any skills from the Elves.  Instead learn your skills from someone else.

  thinlizzy

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/04/13
Posts: 69

 
OP  9/22/13 10:27:44 AM#52
Originally posted by Kyllien
How does allowing every player the chance to learn and earn every class equal no racial differences?  Factions will play a huge role in the game so much so in fact that people that chose to do evil will not be able to become a Paladin.  This game will be all about choice. 

It is entirely possible that choosing to play an Ogre may mean that you can't learn any skills from the Elves.  Instead learn your skills from someone else.

Watch the round table on class/race restrictions

They clearly indicate that they HAD intended to have restrictions/limitations or penalties but after some time working through the possibilities they backed away from ANY and ALL restrictions/limitations or penalties.

  Naral

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/07/10
Posts: 754

9/22/13 10:32:51 AM#53
 
 
  Siug

Elite Member

Joined: 5/02/12
Posts: 1149

9/22/13 10:38:33 AM#54
I'm starting to think that this whole game won't be much more than cosmetic. I'm sure that I'd liked the version of EQN they scrapped 2 years ago much much more.
  User Deleted
9/22/13 11:01:36 AM#55
Originally posted by thinlizzy
Originally posted by Kyllien
How does allowing every player the chance to learn and earn every class equal no racial differences?  Factions will play a huge role in the game so much so in fact that people that chose to do evil will not be able to become a Paladin.  This game will be all about choice. 

It is entirely possible that choosing to play an Ogre may mean that you can't learn any skills from the Elves.  Instead learn your skills from someone else.

Watch the round table on class/race restrictions

They clearly indicate that they HAD intended to have restrictions/limitations or penalties but after some time working through the possibilities they backed away from ANY and ALL restrictions/limitations or penalties.

Dear sweet God...some of us want our initial choices (race, class, etc) to mean initial difficulties in-game, not wiping out weeks or months of effort because when we reach the end of the line we find out that our most liked playstyle (lets say a ad hoc anti-paladin) isn't best played on the race you like the most. We want choices that matter not cosmetic choices that force us to play in a box. I want to care that slaying every innocent from the starting zone to the lair of generic bad X means I cannot be a paladin and not be forced to care that a certain race cannot be a paladin because <insert contrived lore reason x>. Who you are in-game should be defined by who you choose to be not by what you derped through in 20-30 min after your first log in.

  thinlizzy

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/04/13
Posts: 69

 
OP  9/22/13 11:21:55 AM#56
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by thinlizzy
Originally posted by Kyllien
How does allowing every player the chance to learn and earn every class equal no racial differences?  Factions will play a huge role in the game so much so in fact that people that chose to do evil will not be able to become a Paladin.  This game will be all about choice. 

It is entirely possible that choosing to play an Ogre may mean that you can't learn any skills from the Elves.  Instead learn your skills from someone else.

Watch the round table on class/race restrictions

They clearly indicate that they HAD intended to have restrictions/limitations or penalties but after some time working through the possibilities they backed away from ANY and ALL restrictions/limitations or penalties.

Dear sweet God...some of us want our initial choices (race, class, etc) to mean initial difficulties in-game, not wiping out weeks or months of effort because when we reach the end of the line we find out that our most liked playstyle (lets say a ad hoc anti-paladin) isn't best played on the race you like the most. We want choices that matter not cosmetic choices that force us to play in a box. I want to care that slaying every innocent from the starting zone to the lair of generic bad X means I cannot be a paladin and not be forced to care that a certain race cannot be a paladin because . Who you are in-game should be defined by who you choose to be not by what you derped through in 20-30 min after your first log in.

Cool, sounds like this will be the game for you.

For me... I like the choices I make to have an impact. The early ones and the ones made during play.

I also like to play different toons, but given the classes are just a big smush of grey and now we hear the races dont make any difference I guess I will have to wait for someone else to use the cool technologies in an MMORPG

 

Clearly you prefer the race to be simply a choice of character skin, in which case why not make it changeable at whim.

Get bored with your gnome skin...simply swap it out for an Ogre skin.

I am not saying this is wrong

I am sure there will be many people like you who will love what they are doing but they should not use RPG in a description of what EQN ... its going to be an MMO but not an MMORPG

  Nephaerius

Novice Member

Joined: 9/18/09
Posts: 1480

9/22/13 11:31:48 AM#57
Originally posted by thinlizzy

So, given the devs have said they dont want any choice a player makes when making a character to limit them from being effective in any role, we must conclude that RACE will be no more than a cosmetic choice.

No racial factions

No racial limitations

No racial variation (that impacts on game play)

No racial advantage

In short race is about as relevant as choosing the color of your underpants.

 

For me this is a big disappointment.

For me it doesn't make any difference at all.

Twitter: @Nephaerius
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  Rayshe

Novice Member

Joined: 11/30/11
Posts: 1295

9/22/13 11:35:26 AM#58
i disagree with it being costmetic. I mean im perfectly fine allowing anyone to be anything, however specific races should be better at Specific classes. For instance, a Elf should beat out a Ogre as a rogue. We aren't saying you cant be a Ogre Rogue, we are just saying that a Elf is more suited for the job. This is just having things make sense.

Because i can.
I'm Hopeful For Every Game, Until the Fan Boys Attack My Games. Then the Knives Come Out.
Logic every gamers worst enemy.

  Mr.Kujo

Novice Member

Joined: 5/23/12
Posts: 392

“Discussion is impossible with someone who claims not to seek the truth, but already to possess it.”

9/22/13 11:56:29 AM#59
Originally posted by thinlizzy
Originally posted by Dihoru

Dear sweet God...some of us want our initial choices (race, class, etc) to mean initial difficulties in-game, not wiping out weeks or months of effort because when we reach the end of the line we find out that our most liked playstyle (lets say a ad hoc anti-paladin) isn't best played on the race you like the most. We want choices that matter not cosmetic choices that force us to play in a box. I want to care that slaying every innocent from the starting zone to the lair of generic bad X means I cannot be a paladin and not be forced to care that a certain race cannot be a paladin because . Who you are in-game should be defined by who you choose to be not by what you derped through in 20-30 min after your first log in.

Cool, sounds like this will be the game for you.

For me... I like the choices I make to have an impact. The early ones and the ones made during play.

Clearly you prefer the race to be simply a choice of character skin, in which case why not make it changeable at whim.

Get bored with your gnome skin...simply swap it out for an Ogre skin.

I am not saying this is wrong

I am sure there will be many people like you who will love what they are doing but they should not use RPG in a description of what EQN ... its going to be an MMO but not an MMORPG

 

I like the example "I want to care that slaying every innocent from the starting zone to the lair of generic bad X means I cannot be a paladin".

You see, this is something, that player CHOOSES to do, and it has IMPACT, like you said yourself. This is related directly to the actions player made in game. Giving racial abilities and downsides means that you get some limitations at start, because you picked a race with a background, that doesn't allow you to become something you want to. Something happened in the past in lore, you had no influence on. See the difference? People don't like restrictions at the beginning of the game. It is not that they don't want to make decisions that have impact at all.

There are plenty of ways to force players to make tough decisions, and change their character depending on what they choose. I just personally think that picking race at the begining shouldn't be one of those choices, that is all.

  thinlizzy

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/04/13
Posts: 69

 
OP  9/22/13 12:04:48 PM#60
Originally posted by Mr.Kujo
 

I like the example "I want to care that slaying every innocent from the starting zone to the lair of generic bad X means I cannot be a paladin".

You see, this is something, that player CHOOSES to do, and it has IMPACT, like you said yourself. This is related directly to the actions player made in game. Giving racial abilities and downsides means that you get some limitations at start, because you picked a race with a background, that doesn't allow you to become something you want to. Something happened in the past in lore, you had no influence on. See the difference? People don't like restrictions at the beginning of the game. It is not that they don't want to make decisions that have impact at all.

There are plenty of ways to force players to make tough decisions, and change their character depending on what they choose. I just personally think that picking race at the begining shouldn't be one of those choices, that is all.

 

SO far there is NO indication they will make your actions in game effect your ability to be any class or mix any classes.

Intact its quite the opposite.

Every time they talk about these subjects they make it clearer and clearer that choices of ALL kinds will have NO impact on class availability.

 

So you will be able to play that Ogre elven-archer paladin mix whilst laying waste to the local orphanage.

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