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EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » RACE nothing more than cosmetic

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154 posts found
  Karteli

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/09/12
Posts: 2704

9/21/13 5:03:42 PM#21
Originally posted by Dihoru
Sandbox equals choices, the more the better, anyone that says races should have class limitations should pull their imagination limiter out

Sandbox doesn't mean having illogical choices, however.  Astronaughts are chosen not because of what they know, but because of their bodies - small / medium, small preferred.  Jockies are generally small also, for damn good reason (light weight wins).

 

Having a small wrestler doesn't make sense (Andy Kaufman is the exception!).

 

[Although he won  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6p5KMZe8n0o]  Great job, and he did beat up quite a few women !  Later he lost to a much larger man.

 

Sometimes body size just matters, and there is nothing anyone can say to take that away :-D

 

It's on film after all (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZamXdKlDdg) He lost against a man :/

 

To those interested, gets his face pushed in later on:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQ-1ucVJGno

To end all his smack talk .. size matters!

 

 

Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.

  krage

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/22/11
Posts: 411

9/21/13 5:05:29 PM#22

I dont mind races and classes not being locked, but I would've preferred physical stats to at least represent each race that makes certain races better at certain classes...like a soft lock I guess.

I don't really like seeing 3ft gnomes that have comparable strength to 8ft Ogres, and although some players may want to be a gnome warrior I think they should pay the price for that size in HP but perhaps have a higher agility to make up for it.

It would emphasize different playstyles for each race along each class if pulled off right, and simply require a different stat priority.

I like to think of each class and races role in team sport terms, usually football. Races all having the same performance in each class role is like the idea of a 5'9 185lb football player being able to perform at the same level as a 6'7 300lb football player on the offensive line as far as durability and blocking.

Point being, let race-class selection be limited but do give incentive for certain common sense combinations that can be offset by gearing, stat priorities and playstyle....that adds a nice layer of depth for those who like gnome warriors, while also giving min-maxers their ideal race-class-playstyle-stat setups as well.

  User Deleted
9/21/13 5:12:35 PM#23
Originally posted by Karteli
Originally posted by Dihoru
Sandbox equals choices, the more the better, anyone that says races should have class limitations should pull their imagination limiter out

Sandbox doesn't mean having illogical choices, however.  Astronaughts are chosen not because of what they know, but because of their bodies - small / medium, small preferred.  Jockies are generally small also, for damn good reason (light weight wins).

 

Having a small wrestler doesn't make sense (Andy Kaufman is the exception!).

 

 

 

Logic is a objective system, what you described above isn't objective.

Also astronauts and cosmonauts are chosen based on health not morphology, you blew your own foot off with that one (Neil Armstrong was 1.8 m tall, that's taller than me by a good 2 inches).

  Deadlyne

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/19/10
Posts: 217

9/21/13 5:15:51 PM#24
Originally posted by thinlizzy

So, given the devs have said they dont want any choice a player makes when making a character to limit them from being effective in any role, we must conclude that RACE will be no more than a cosmetic choice.

No racial factions

No racial limitations

No racial variation (that impacts on game play)

No racial advantage

In short race is about as relevant as choosing the color of your underpants.

 

For me this is a big disappointment.

I see no reasoning or logic which shows that we "must conclude" that race is purely cosmetic.  You supplied absolutely no evidence that they meant this by any means.  You simply said we must conclude that and therefore x, y and z are true.  Being effective in a role says to me, that you class is able to perform well enough to be helpful to your group/raid. 

Factions definitely exist they haven't explained them all in detail but they have stated very plainly just how greatly the faction system in EQN will matter.  I'm not going to say that guarantees racial factions, but, it seems a more logical assumption than yours.  

I don't see any reason why racial class limitations matter to anyone, but to each their own.  

Your last two points are just so completely grounded in assumption and exaggeration I don't see any point on commenting on them.  

In short your post is about as relevant as matching the color of your underpants to your shoelaces.

Just to question the philosophy. Army of Socrates.

  Angzt

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/05/07
Posts: 233

"Growing old is compulsory, growing up is optional."(Bob Monkhouse)

9/21/13 5:22:18 PM#25

first everyone is "uhhuu i can learn everything so cool", then you go "damn! i can learn anything!"?

 

i r confused :)

"believe me, mike.. i calculated the odds of this working against the odds that i was doing something incredibly stupid… and i did it anyway!"

  Karteli

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/09/12
Posts: 2704

9/21/13 5:26:04 PM#26
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Karteli
Originally posted by Dihoru
Sandbox equals choices, the more the better, anyone that says races should have class limitations should pull their imagination limiter out

Sandbox doesn't mean having illogical choices, however.  Astronaughts are chosen not because of what they know, but because of their bodies - small / medium, small preferred.  Jockies are generally small also, for damn good reason (light weight wins).

 

Having a small wrestler doesn't make sense (Andy Kaufman is the exception!).

 

 

 

Logic is a objective system, what you described above isn't objective.

Also astronauts and cosmonauts are chosen based on health not morphology, you blew your own foot off with that one (Neil Armstrong was 1.8 m tall, that's taller than me by a good 2 inches).

Neil was extremely slim, so weight shouldn't come into this?  Yes .. but you insist on bringing height (like that matters).

 

He could be 9 foot fall, be slim as a board and still weigh 150 lbs. (though he wasnt, although was still slim)

 

Actually his measurements weren't that far from that (height lower lol).  If you want to center on height .. fine.  But size also consists of mass, and smaller beings generally have a quicker movement speed than larger beings.

 

Thus why halflings are more suited to thievery than, say, humans or ogres.

 

and yes, that is a ZING!

 

Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.

  User Deleted
9/21/13 5:46:02 PM#27
Originally posted by Karteli
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Karteli
Originally posted by Dihoru
Sandbox equals choices, the more the better, anyone that says races should have class limitations should pull their imagination limiter out

Sandbox doesn't mean having illogical choices, however.  Astronaughts are chosen not because of what they know, but because of their bodies - small / medium, small preferred.  Jockies are generally small also, for damn good reason (light weight wins).

 

Having a small wrestler doesn't make sense (Andy Kaufman is the exception!).

 

 

 

Logic is a objective system, what you described above isn't objective.

Also astronauts and cosmonauts are chosen based on health not morphology, you blew your own foot off with that one (Neil Armstrong was 1.8 m tall, that's taller than me by a good 2 inches).

Neil was extremely slim, so weight shouldn't come into this?  Yes .. but you insist on bringing height (like that matters).

 

He could be 9 foot fall, be slim as a board and still weigh 150 lbs.

 

Actually his measurements weren't that far from that.  If you want to center on height .. fine.  But size also consists of mass, and smaller beings generally have a quicker movement speed than larger beings.

 

Thus why halflings are more suited to thievery than, say, humans or ogres.

 

Small and medium is height by default, unless you want to specify small and medium builds.

Also fun fact I've face punched a guy 20 cm smaller than me because I was more agile than him and before you say anything: He was a athlete, I was merely fit back then.

Your obsession with body morphology and how it dictates things it clearly does not is rather fascinating in a morbid sort of way, tell me does the notion of someone defying your notions of what you think is right upset you? In the real world people 1.7 m tall don't play basketball because they'll never be the stars and everyone wants to be a star but to put it bluntly in a defensive role such people would be nightmares to get passed if they trained even half decently (played both football and basketball in my high-school days, never gave much effort to either, was around 1.60-1.65 back then, on average the basketball players were 10 cms taller than me and trained, they still feared getting into my area and in football I was unmatched in my ability to be a pain in the ass in terms of stealing the ball, again average teen but playing against semi-pros, it's all in how you go about things in life, if you think you can't be something you will often self-sabotage).

Back on topic though: The notion of race dictating anything in a game is a stupid and archaic leftover from a 1970s PnP game, as long as the racially adapted classes make sense no one has anything to comment on it ( creatures who do not have a mana pool to draw on can cast magic by proxy using some other fount of power, creatures that are smaller in stature can be agility based warriors, the large ones can be spongy rogues with immense damage potential, etc ).

  Jeauseoff

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/24/06
Posts: 35

9/21/13 5:53:53 PM#28
Originally posted by bliss14
Indeed, games should not contribute to racism.  All of the races should be equal in all ways.  Except gnomes. Screw them.

+1 ^  : )

A friend and I were just having a very similar discussion the other day, and I had explained that arbitrary restrictions based on race basically comes down to racism.  If a dwarf can't be a mage because they're a dwarf - that is arbitrary IMO.  If arcane magic use just isn't a large part of dwarf culture that's a different thing all together.  In the first example, the restriction has no real justification, and leads a player to try and concoct a reason for this limitation.  At least in the second example the reason for dwarves not being arcane casters is plausible - BUT it isn't an outright 'restriction' but can be construed as 'uncommon' if not 'exceedingly rare' for a dwarf to be an arcane caster because of dwarven society / culture.  It should follow then that dwarven arcane casters CAN exist, (this could translate in game terms that it's a rare epic quest for Dwarves to discover the means to become arcane casters.)

I just want more justification and less contradiction, (like if a dwarf can't be a 'Mage' but can be an 'Enchanter' or a 'Necromancer', or a 'Warlock', etc.)

IMO; Arbitrary or 'For game balance' restrictions = Lazy design.

 

  Karteli

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/09/12
Posts: 2704

9/21/13 5:56:42 PM#29
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Karteli
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Karteli
Originally posted by Dihoru
Sandbox equals choices, the more the better, anyone that says races should have class limitations should pull their imagination limiter out

Sandbox doesn't mean having illogical choices, however.  Astronaughts are chosen not because of what they know, but because of their bodies - small / medium, small preferred.  Jockies are generally small also, for damn good reason (light weight wins).

 

Having a small wrestler doesn't make sense (Andy Kaufman is the exception!).

 

 

 

Logic is a objective system, what you described above isn't objective.

Also astronauts and cosmonauts are chosen based on health not morphology, you blew your own foot off with that one (Neil Armstrong was 1.8 m tall, that's taller than me by a good 2 inches).

Neil was extremely slim, so weight shouldn't come into this?  Yes .. but you insist on bringing height (like that matters).

 

He could be 9 foot fall, be slim as a board and still weigh 150 lbs.

 

Actually his measurements weren't that far from that.  If you want to center on height .. fine.  But size also consists of mass, and smaller beings generally have a quicker movement speed than larger beings.

 

Thus why halflings are more suited to thievery than, say, humans or ogres.

 

Small and medium is height by default, unless you want to specify small and medium builds.

Also fun fact I've face punched a guy 20 cm smaller than me because I was more agile than him

 < SNIP >

Your justifications are meaningless - as far as anyone knows you instigated the fight, and likely beat up a smaller person.

 

But ...

 

Sometimes race matters.  In fantasy, some races are smart, some are dumb, some are strong, some are weak ...it adds to the mix.  Race should matter in fantasy games.  Making races matter in turn makes players matter...

 

Take stuff like that away and it's a crappy MMORPG where nobody cares about their character or themselves. (low longevity game, quickly going to the trashcan)

Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.

  Deadlyne

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/19/10
Posts: 217

9/21/13 6:13:30 PM#30
Originally posted by Karteli
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Karteli
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Karteli
Originally posted by Dihoru
Sandbox equals choices, the more the better, anyone that says races should have class limitations should pull their imagination limiter out

Sandbox doesn't mean having illogical choices, however.  Astronaughts are chosen not because of what they know, but because of their bodies - small / medium, small preferred.  Jockies are generally small also, for damn good reason (light weight wins).

 

Having a small wrestler doesn't make sense (Andy Kaufman is the exception!).

 

 

 

Logic is a objective system, what you described above isn't objective.

Also astronauts and cosmonauts are chosen based on health not morphology, you blew your own foot off with that one (Neil Armstrong was 1.8 m tall, that's taller than me by a good 2 inches).

Neil was extremely slim, so weight shouldn't come into this?  Yes .. but you insist on bringing height (like that matters).

 

He could be 9 foot fall, be slim as a board and still weigh 150 lbs.

 

Actually his measurements weren't that far from that.  If you want to center on height .. fine.  But size also consists of mass, and smaller beings generally have a quicker movement speed than larger beings.

 

Thus why halflings are more suited to thievery than, say, humans or ogres.

 

Small and medium is height by default, unless you want to specify small and medium builds.

Also fun fact I've face punched a guy 20 cm smaller than me because I was more agile than him

 < SNIP >

Your justifications are meaningless - as far as anyone knows you instigated the fight, and likely beat up a smaller person.

 

But ...

 

Sometimes race matters.  In fantasy, some races are smart, some are dumb, some are strong, some are weak ...it adds to the mix.  Race should matter in fantasy games.  Making races matter in turn makes players matter...

 

Take stuff like that away and it's a crappy MMORPG where nobody cares about their character or themselves. (low longevity game, quickly going to the trashcan)

Using your examples makes the races one dimensional.  It doesn't leave room for variances of individuals.  Basically fantasy based stereotyping.    

Just to question the philosophy. Army of Socrates.

  Karteli

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/09/12
Posts: 2704

9/21/13 6:28:42 PM#31
Originally posted by Deadlyne
Originally posted by Karteli
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Karteli
Originally posted by Dihoru
Originally posted by Karteli
Originally posted by Dihoru
Sandbox equals choices, the more the better, anyone that says races should have class limitations should pull their imagination limiter out

Sandbox doesn't mean having illogical choices, however.  Astronaughts are chosen not because of what they know, but because of their bodies - small / medium, small preferred.  Jockies are generally small also, for damn good reason (light weight wins).

 

Having a small wrestler doesn't make sense (Andy Kaufman is the exception!).

 

 

 

Logic is a objective system, what you described above isn't objective.

Also astronauts and cosmonauts are chosen based on health not morphology, you blew your own foot off with that one (Neil Armstrong was 1.8 m tall, that's taller than me by a good 2 inches).

Neil was extremely slim, so weight shouldn't come into this?  Yes .. but you insist on bringing height (like that matters).

 

He could be 9 foot fall, be slim as a board and still weigh 150 lbs.

 

Actually his measurements weren't that far from that.  If you want to center on height .. fine.  But size also consists of mass, and smaller beings generally have a quicker movement speed than larger beings.

 

Thus why halflings are more suited to thievery than, say, humans or ogres.

 

Small and medium is height by default, unless you want to specify small and medium builds.

Also fun fact I've face punched a guy 20 cm smaller than me because I was more agile than him

 < SNIP >

Your justifications are meaningless - as far as anyone knows you instigated the fight, and likely beat up a smaller person.

 

But ...

 

Sometimes race matters.  In fantasy, some races are smart, some are dumb, some are strong, some are weak ...it adds to the mix.  Race should matter in fantasy games.  Making races matter in turn makes players matter...

 

Take stuff like that away and it's a crappy MMORPG where nobody cares about their character or themselves. (low longevity game, quickly going to the trashcan)

Using your examples makes the races one dimensional.  It doesn't leave room for variances of individuals.  Basically fantasy based stereotyping.    

EverQuest chose their races in 1999.  Whether or not they want stereotyping is apparently their business, since SOE is still around with the EQ brand.

 

EQ made the world.  SOE needs to adhere to it.

Want a nice understanding of life? Try Spirit Science: "The Human History"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8NNHmV3QPw&feature=plcp
Recognize the voice? Yep sounds like Penny Arcade's Extra Credits.

  xeniar

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/09/06
Posts: 808

9/21/13 6:56:26 PM#32

Could not care less about stats anyway.

I always play a warrior and if available always a Dwarf Nothing to do with stats but those but those 3 foot tall walls off steel are just awesome.

i however do care about stupid things as Oger rogues etc..

  Lukooone

Novice Member

Joined: 9/07/10
Posts: 94

Violent videogames generate violence in the same proportion as Tetris instruct new bricklayers

9/21/13 6:59:12 PM#33

MMORPG = Massively Multiplayer Online ROLE Playing Game

Massi Multi Onli ROLE Play Gam

Ma Mu On ROLE Pl Ga

M M O ROLE P G

ROLE

ROLE

ROLE

 

...

 

Where is the role when every race plays the same and soon every class too like GW2?

 

Please note the "plays the same", I didnt wrote "looks the same" ...

Played :UO,EQ,DaoC,Lineage2,SWG,WWIIOL,EQ2,EvE,WoW,AoC,DF,RIFT,GA,TSW,Tera...
Best imo : UO

  Lukooone

Novice Member

Joined: 9/07/10
Posts: 94

Violent videogames generate violence in the same proportion as Tetris instruct new bricklayers

9/21/13 7:04:59 PM#34
Btw if I remember correctly SOE didnt create EQ, it was a smaller company called VERANT INTERACTIVE.

Played :UO,EQ,DaoC,Lineage2,SWG,WWIIOL,EQ2,EvE,WoW,AoC,DF,RIFT,GA,TSW,Tera...
Best imo : UO

  Ryowulf

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/28/05
Posts: 669

9/21/13 7:18:09 PM#35
Originally posted by xeniar

Could not care less about stats anyway.

I always play a warrior and if available always a Dwarf Nothing to do with stats but those but those 3 foot tall walls off steel are just awesome.

i however do care about stupid things as Oger rogues etc..

Why? What is a rogue? Someone focused more of offense than defense? 

In an ogre city having a ogre rogue sneaking around wouldn't seem that strange. Size is relative.  When small folks fight tall you end up with Yoda's lightsaber battle. Isn't that just as ridiculous?  Dwarves have a reach of what? A foot?  They look like tiny tyrannosaurus rexs trying to box, so wouldn't a dwarf fighter be just as silly?

  girdisorder

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/05/12
Posts: 45

9/21/13 7:23:53 PM#36
Originally posted by Adalwulff

Maybe this is their idea of the ultimate sandbox

Where anyone can be anything, even if it doesn't make sense....

Tauren rogue imo...

  xeniar

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/09/06
Posts: 808

9/21/13 7:26:52 PM#37
Originally posted by Ryowulf
Originally posted by xeniar

Could not care less about stats anyway.

I always play a warrior and if available always a Dwarf Nothing to do with stats but those but those 3 foot tall walls off steel are just awesome.

i however do care about stupid things as Oger rogues etc..

Why? What is a rogue? Someone focused more of offense than defense? 

In an ogre city having a ogre rogue sneaking around wouldn't seem that strange. Size is relative.  When small folks fight tall you end up with Yoda's lightsaber battle. Isn't that just as ridiculous?  Dwarves have a reach of what? A foot?  They look like tiny tyrannosaurus rexs trying to box, so wouldn't a dwarf fighter be just as silly?

Dwarfs are redicolously strong so they make up for there size by being battle hardened warriors. Same can be said for ogres and trolls (if we talk about EQ) they are very big and strong. why would one wield 2 tiny daggers when they would be able to dualwield double headed two handed battle axes.

  ReallyNow10

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/11/10
Posts: 1629

Don't give us stories. Give us worlds and we will make our own stories.

9/21/13 7:58:49 PM#38
Originally posted by thinlizzy

So, given the devs have said they dont want any choice a player makes when making a character to limit them from being effective in any role, we must conclude that RACE will be no more than a cosmetic choice.

No racial factions

No racial limitations

No racial variation (that impacts on game play)

No racial advantage

In short race is about as relevant as choosing the color of your underpants.

 

For me this is a big disappointment.

If that is the case, that really is an idiotic decision by the devs.  Races, in a fantasy world, should be different.  Elves ought to occasionally be able to hide in shadows or see in the dark slightly better, dwarves should be a little hardier, Ogres and Barbarians stronger, Humans should have some special kind bonus themselves.

EVERY race should have some light racial advantage which makes it unique.  And if the advantage is escpecially favorable (i.e., troll regeneration) then it should come with some slight Achilles Heel (i.e., trolls suffter extra damage from fire attacks and/or a slight penalty from fighting outdoors in daylight).

This kind of stuff makes the fantasy world fun and more immersive.

  Drakynn

Novice Member

Joined: 3/02/08
Posts: 2051

9/21/13 8:18:21 PM#39
Originally posted by Dihoru
Sandbox equals choices, the more the better, anyone that says races should have class limitations should pull their imagination limiter out ( example: a dwarven mage could rely on rune based magic instead of mana based magic, basically instead of chanting some latin shit and using his mana he draws symbols in some fashion that achieve the same thing, they both have to have the same degree of limitation in damage/healting/w/e potentials but yeah two different flavours for the same thing, also to the numptee that said midget races shouldn't be warriors: think lighter armour, no large two handed weapons but significant bonuses to dodging thus allowing you to be a warrior and with slight work that agility can make you more useful than a lumbering ogre warrior).

Choices are great...unless they have no consequence or meaning then they are pointless.

as for your examples the information in the OP negates most of them as the only variation between races will be cosmetic that means no stat variation between classes due to race...some of what you say may come to pass as cosmetic animations but nothing that impacts game play.

But this is the way the majority seem to want it because they want everything available to them on one characteras ASAP and the majority usually wins.

It does however seem to be a strange way to start a "Life of Consequences"

  Malacth

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/21/08
Posts: 116

9/21/13 8:24:18 PM#40
Originally posted by NightBandit

The reason EQI was so popular was because of the locked race types and for me I feel that's the thing which could let EQN down, however until we know more then there is no point with the dramatic statements because we no nothing in full yet and I am of the opinion that SOE have not got any where near a game otherwise we would be hearing more information weekly and that's not happening.

I feel the round table thing is there way of getting what we want to play and guiding them and that's why we seen very little of the game thus far. I guess from what we have seen there has to be some kind of game but they holding it to close to their chest and we will have to wait and see. I for one am no fan of hype or speculation so until we see more then I'll just hold judgment until I get my hands on the beta.

I'd just like to point out that EQ1 being popular was not down to locked race types.

 

That is all.

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