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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » Tequatl Rises First Encounter

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47 posts found
  Neo_Viper

Novice Member

Joined: 5/10/13
Posts: 624

If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong.

9/18/13 5:17:43 AM#21
Originally posted by RebelScum99
Originally posted by Neo_Viper

People wanted ultra hard boss fights in GW2, ANet proved it was possible without the trinity.

Now I'm counting the time until people whine that it's too hard.

There's a difference between "ultra hard" and overtuned.  Without the trinity, all they can really do it overtune the boss fights so that you get one-shot if you are standing in the wrong spot.  That's fine if that is the type of difficulty you are looking for, but personally I prefer a fight to be difficult AND strategy-intensive.  I'm not saying there isn't strategy involved, but it doesn't seem to involve a lot of complex mechanics and movement like you'd see in other trinity-based games.  

GW2 certainly does have some impressive looking bosses, though.  Pretty awe-inspiring when he hops down off the mountain.  The only thing I've noticed is that the over-sized boss mobs never seem to actually move anywhere.  They seem to be anchored to one position for most or all of the fight.  Are all the bigger boss mobs like this, or do they have ones that actually move around and chase people?

Another "I don't play the game but I will give my expert opinion about it anyway" post.

My computer is better than yours.

  Gaia_Hunter

Elite Member

Joined: 5/04/12
Posts: 2588

9/18/13 6:10:40 AM#22
Originally posted by Rhazmuz
Originally posted by tom_gore
Originally posted by Rhazmuz
Originally posted by Silentstorm

1. No melee you will die a quick painful death. You can swipe once or twice but don't stand there too long.

From what I remember playing the game a year ago, this was almost always the case.. Going melee meant you would suffer all kinds of stupid damage, leaving you in downed state so fast you didnt even have time to do anything.

 

One of the main reason im no longer playing this game.

Bad dungeon experience? Yes many bosses at launch were extremely melee-unfriendly. There are still a few of them, but mostly they have been tuned to be challenging (but a lot less frustrating) to both melee and ranged.

It's not a coincidence that Warrior is currently the most wanted profession in most dungeon groups.

 

Bad general experiences. As far as I remember it was both dungeons and events. Bosses/monsters would do absurd damage, and you would be in downed state over and over.

I saw a video of the kill of this new big boss event, and again, players were going down over and over, and everyone was just huddled together doing ranged damage. Not much diversity/fun in that.

They might have fine tuned the dungeons/events since then (In regards to melee friendliness), but as I said, was one of the reasons, and the others arent fixed, since they are core game mechanics I dont like.

Considering the most wanted class for dungeons are zerker warriors, you were just playing in a time everyone was a bad player.

The thing with melee weapons is that they DO MUCH MORE DAMAGE. You go there and unload a 100blades or a axe #1 chain and you have done more damage than 30s of ranged attacks.

Knowing the animations of bosses allows you to dodge their one shot attacks that happens every so often.

Currently playing: GW2
Cooperative (semi cooperative)board games you should check: Pandemic, Sentinels of the Multiverse, Eldritch Horror, Descent 2.0,Level 7 Omega Protocol, Last Night on Earth

  Neo_Viper

Novice Member

Joined: 5/10/13
Posts: 624

If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong.

9/18/13 6:35:25 AM#23

Actually, having to avoid some moves which may "one shot" you is more realistic than any "trinity" system with a tank.

When a giant dragon the size of a house is about to try to bash you in the face with his claws, you better dodge it or you die.

My computer is better than yours.

  sfc1971

Novice Member

Joined: 10/05/08
Posts: 423

9/18/13 8:59:42 AM#24

From 3 runs last night I have deduced the following:

Areanet doesn't know their own game. I like GW2 but the openworld event system does encourage/allow/tolerate completely and utter wastes of space to exist and not cause to much grief.

As a counter example, in Lotro PvP my server had one douchebag who enjoyed pulling PvE mobs into PvP fights. You can't do that in GW2, about the most asshat move you can do in PvE events is to just stand there to cause an event to scale up for the playing people. But hey, just walk away and try again another day, the event will respawn before you have turned around.

Group content in GW2 is relatively simple AND small scale. People play it in tight groups OR in PUGS where they can easily kick a trouble maker.

So... now Areanet has introduced a MASSIVE group content requiring focus... and a LOT of people.

So what have I observed during the events? Turrets manned but not firing. People counting towards server limit busy with other things. AFK galore. People dead and screaming for rez rather then simply respawning and rejoining the fight.

The fight itself seems pretty simple:

Turrets debuff the lizard and buff the players. 6 turrets, 100 people relying on those 6 people not being AFK, not being douche bags or totally unaware of the mechanics of the fight or just there to get an achievement.

In a game where focused group content so far has been absent. 

Oh that is going to go well?

Meanwhile you either got to dodge a though lizard or join a few fighters defending the turrets dealing with enemies scaled to the 100+ people in the area but NOT actually fighting them.

I am not the best player out there, not even close but I can handle some champions alone or with another player. When you spend an eternity solo fighting a grub to defend a turret it is clear the game expects me to be getting some help from the countless players around them. I wasn't. Enemies scaled to deal with a zergs damage output SUCK DONKEY BALLS when the zerg isn't outputting any damage.

It reminds me a bit of the fire elemental before it was fixed/nerfed. It used to spawn endless fire circles, often overlapping with an endless knockdown effect. Basically a constant instant kill where people often couldn't make it off the bridge.

Its hardness was however directly related to how many decent players were there. If a monsters scales up for every dead playing waiting for other people to join the fight, then the fight soon becomes impossible.

A good company knows their playerbase. In Lotro people preferred moderate non-gated content, when Moria supplied the exact opposite, people found ways to avoid Moria at all costs.

In SWG, a giraff like animal on Correlia was hunted above all others because it didn't cause insane poison damage.

And GW2 seems to be played a lot by people who prefer zergs style simple combat. Well I certainly do.

I can deal with needing to split up and light tactics but making an OPENWORLD event were success relies on six people who can't be booted who can hog an essential element... that is just insane.

It reminds me of Age of Conans excellent idea to make other players bodies block you path. How many seconds did you think it took for players to find choke points so they could block other players access to crucial areas?

Right... they soon had to introduce a patch that allowed you to pass other people when crouching.

Areanet, this is the internet, there will be assholes, the will find a way to ruin it for other players. You just gave them an early christmas present.

  Volkon

Novice Member

Joined: 9/14/10
Posts: 3813

Facts do not require fiction for balance.

9/18/13 10:05:05 AM#25
Originally posted by Rhazmuz

Bad general experiences. As far as I remember it was both dungeons and events. Bosses/monsters would do absurd damage, and you would be in downed state over and over.

I saw a video of the kill of this new big boss event, and again, players were going down over and over, and everyone was just huddled together doing ranged damage. Not much diversity/fun in that.

They might have fine tuned the dungeons/events since then (In regards to melee friendliness), but as I said, was one of the reasons, and the others arent fixed, since they are core game mechanics I dont like.

 

That happened (and still happens to a degree) because people were making a few fatal flaws (mainly due to bad habits from other MMOs). 

 

1. Heavy armor does absorb a bit more damage, but it's not so much that you can stand there and absorb blow after blow.

2. There are no melee professions. All professions have both ranged and melee options available to them. People would think Warrior = Melee then try to melee in situations that were less than ideal. On top of that...

3. When you're in melee, you cannot simply stand there and attack. You need to move, use mitigation and avoidance skills, etc. GW2 is not a game where you stand there and swing a sword until the other guy goes dead. If you don't use your other skills, especially utility skills, to good effect, well... there you go. 

 

That pretty much sums it up. No profession is only melee, and when you're choosing to melee... don't only melee. Move. Avoid. Block. Dodge. Mitigate. 

 

Or die.

Oderint, dum metuant.

  Zzad

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/14/11
Posts: 1282

9/18/13 1:33:07 PM#26
Originally posted by Volkon
Originally posted by Rhazmuz

Bad general experiences. As far as I remember it was both dungeons and events. Bosses/monsters would do absurd damage, and you would be in downed state over and over.

I saw a video of the kill of this new big boss event, and again, players were going down over and over, and everyone was just huddled together doing ranged damage. Not much diversity/fun in that.

They might have fine tuned the dungeons/events since then (In regards to melee friendliness), but as I said, was one of the reasons, and the others arent fixed, since they are core game mechanics I dont like.

 

That happened (and still happens to a degree) because people were making a few fatal flaws (mainly due to bad habits from other MMOs). 

 

1. Heavy armor does absorb a bit more damage, but it's not so much that you can stand there and absorb blow after blow.

2. There are no melee professions. All professions have both ranged and melee options available to them. People would think Warrior = Melee then try to melee in situations that were less than ideal. On top of that...

3. When you're in melee, you cannot simply stand there and attack. You need to move, use mitigation and avoidance skills, etc. GW2 is not a game where you stand there and swing a sword until the other guy goes dead. If you don't use your other skills, especially utility skills, to good effect, well... there you go. 

 

That pretty much sums it up. No profession is only melee, and when you're choosing to melee... don't only melee. Move. Avoid. Block. Dodge. Mitigate. 

 

Or die.

 

+1
  Meowhead

Tipster

Joined: 1/31/09
Posts: 3728

9/18/13 2:13:39 PM#27

It's worth pointing out there are people who melee during the Tequatl Rises fight.  I do, for example.

If you're attacking the boss, it requires lots of split second timing hopping the waves, and good spatial awareness of how to avoid the poison circles.

If you're trying to directly help those attacking the boss, it involves attacking the fingers coming out of the ground, that are spreading those poison circles.

If you want to just melee nonstop, and still want an important job (That gives full credit), you can defend the turrets.  That's probably the best place for a melee person to be, plenty of things that need to be killed quickly so the turrets can keep up their jobs.  Still helps if you're skillful though.

  KhinRunite

Novice Member

Joined: 11/05/10
Posts: 897

9/18/13 9:18:39 PM#28
Originally posted by sfc1971

From 3 runs last night I have deduced the following:

Areanet doesn't know their own game. I like GW2 but the openworld event system does encourage/allow/tolerate completely and utter wastes of space to exist and not cause to much grief.

As a counter example, in Lotro PvP my server had one douchebag who enjoyed pulling PvE mobs into PvP fights. You can't do that in GW2, about the most asshat move you can do in PvE events is to just stand there to cause an event to scale up for the playing people. But hey, just walk away and try again another day, the event will respawn before you have turned around.

Group content in GW2 is relatively simple AND small scale. People play it in tight groups OR in PUGS where they can easily kick a trouble maker.

So... now Areanet has introduced a MASSIVE group content requiring focus... and a LOT of people.

So what have I observed during the events? Turrets manned but not firing. People counting towards server limit busy with other things. AFK galore. People dead and screaming for rez rather then simply respawning and rejoining the fight.

The fight itself seems pretty simple:

Turrets debuff the lizard and buff the players. 6 turrets, 100 people relying on those 6 people not being AFK, not being douche bags or totally unaware of the mechanics of the fight or just there to get an achievement.

In a game where focused group content so far has been absent. 

Oh that is going to go well?

Meanwhile you either got to dodge a though lizard or join a few fighters defending the turrets dealing with enemies scaled to the 100+ people in the area but NOT actually fighting them.

I am not the best player out there, not even close but I can handle some champions alone or with another player. When you spend an eternity solo fighting a grub to defend a turret it is clear the game expects me to be getting some help from the countless players around them. I wasn't. Enemies scaled to deal with a zergs damage output SUCK DONKEY BALLS when the zerg isn't outputting any damage.

It reminds me a bit of the fire elemental before it was fixed/nerfed. It used to spawn endless fire circles, often overlapping with an endless knockdown effect. Basically a constant instant kill where people often couldn't make it off the bridge.

Its hardness was however directly related to how many decent players were there. If a monsters scales up for every dead playing waiting for other people to join the fight, then the fight soon becomes impossible.

A good company knows their playerbase. In Lotro people preferred moderate non-gated content, when Moria supplied the exact opposite, people found ways to avoid Moria at all costs.

In SWG, a giraff like animal on Correlia was hunted above all others because it didn't cause insane poison damage.

And GW2 seems to be played a lot by people who prefer zergs style simple combat. Well I certainly do.

I can deal with needing to split up and light tactics but making an OPENWORLD event were success relies on six people who can't be booted who can hog an essential element... that is just insane.

It reminds me of Age of Conans excellent idea to make other players bodies block you path. How many seconds did you think it took for players to find choke points so they could block other players access to crucial areas?

Right... they soon had to introduce a patch that allowed you to pass other people when crouching.

Areanet, this is the internet, there will be assholes, the will find a way to ruin it for other players. You just gave them an early christmas present.

Since Blackgate has already downed Tequatl, and more and more people are getting closer to winning over him, all your argument falls apart. It boils down to people's willingness to teach others, learn on the way, and ultimately cooperate.

But don't think I'm not sympathetic to your observation. I have also observed the same in my server, but it's not always like that. Logging in at certain time zones and banding with like-minded people changes the whole experience. We're yet to beat Tequatl though, lol.

  dontadow

Novice Member

Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 1045

9/18/13 11:46:40 PM#29
I have Melee since beginning with a medium Armor character. Secret is to play gw2 and not every other mmo. You can not stand there and just tab a button. You have to move a great deal. It takes skill. But I'd got ate good to will be highly so ught.
  sfc1971

Novice Member

Joined: 10/05/08
Posts: 423

9/19/13 3:26:31 AM#30
Originally posted by KhinRunite

Since Blackgate has already downed Tequatl, and more and more people are getting closer to winning over him, all your argument falls apart. It boils down to people's willingness to teach others, learn on the way, and ultimately cooperate.

But don't think I'm not sympathetic to your observation. I have also observed the same in my server, but it's not always like that. Logging in at certain time zones and banding with like-minded people changes the whole experience. We're yet to beat Tequatl though, lol.

Yesterday on underworld for the first few minutes, 5 turrets were occupied but inactive. There is no way to remove AFK players from turrets. That is a massive design flaw. 

I predict that before long massive shaming campaigns will start, resulting in bans for harassment.

  avalon1000

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 724

9/19/13 3:40:44 AM#31
Originally posted by Meowhead
Originally posted by RebelScum99

There's a difference between "ultra hard" and overtuned.  Without the trinity, all they can really do it overtune the boss fights so that you get one-shot if you are standing in the wrong spot.  That's fine if that is the type of difficulty you are looking for, but personally I prefer a fight to be difficult AND strategy-intensive.  I'm not saying there isn't strategy involved, but it doesn't seem to involve a lot of complex mechanics and movement like you'd see in other trinity-based games.  

GW2 fights are definitely moving more towards complex mechanics and movement.  There's a lot of running and shuffling around that needs to be done during the Tequatl fight, a lot of coordinating to stack and unstack as necessary.

Tequatl is basically a 150 man pug raid.

Which is why people are constantly failing it.  Because the odds of getting 149 other competent people is.... well.  Mmm.... anyway, it's tuned for assuming people aren't perfectly coordinated, but a lot of coordination and movement and mechanics are still involved.

Anyway, our server has gotten better and better at dealing with it, with strategy sessions in between wipes as we try and break down what went wrong and how we can do it better.  Since you apparently don't play, and aren't doing this fight, you're speaking from a position of ignorance.

Always a dangerous position to speak from when making blanket statements.

One hundred and fifty? Lag hell....no way I am going to do this....no way.

  AmbrosiaAmor

Elite Member

Joined: 11/24/10
Posts: 806

9/19/13 3:58:49 AM#32

I miss my dragon pinata!

I hate this new Tequila boss!

I have to think and move and drink Tequila all at the same time!

Where is my cheese to go with this whine... I mean Tequila!?!?

  Scalpless

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/22/07
Posts: 1289

9/19/13 6:55:05 AM#33

With the upgrade to Tequila Sunrise, Tequila became what I've seen many people ask for - a damn hard open world boss. Now we'll see how many will actually stick to it for a more than a few days.

The big downside I can think of is that conditions got screwed again. 25 stacks cap, construct adds, etc. The usual.

  Kenaoshi

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/21/09
Posts: 1008

9/19/13 8:47:59 AM#34
To Defeat the Tequila properly you need salt and lemon 

now: GW2 (8 80s).
Dark Souls 2.
future: Mount&Blade 2 BannerLord.
"Bro, do your even fractal?"
Recommends: Guild Wars 2, Dark Souls, Mount&Blade: Warband, Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.

  botrytis

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2516

9/19/13 9:21:27 AM#35
Originally posted by RebelScum99
Originally posted by Neo_Viper

People wanted ultra hard boss fights in GW2, ANet proved it was possible without the trinity.

Now I'm counting the time until people whine that it's too hard.

There's a difference between "ultra hard" and overtuned.  Without the trinity, all they can really do it overtune the boss fights so that you get one-shot if you are standing in the wrong spot.  That's fine if that is the type of difficulty you are looking for, but personally I prefer a fight to be difficult AND strategy-intensive.  I'm not saying there isn't strategy involved, but it doesn't seem to involve a lot of complex mechanics and movement like you'd see in other trinity-based games.  

GW2 certainly does have some impressive looking bosses, though.  Pretty awe-inspiring when he hops down off the mountain.  The only thing I've noticed is that the over-sized boss mobs never seem to actually move anywhere.  They seem to be anchored to one position for most or all of the fight.  Are all the bigger boss mobs like this, or do they have ones that actually move around and chase people?

People - the trinity is a crutch for people WHO CAN'T THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX. This is the issue with most forum users here - they want what they want and complain when they can't get it. They want the trinity so the DPSers and Tanks don't have to look at their own HP bar. It is sad really.

 

It is not overtuned - you have be very coordinated, like a major real war battle - planned chaos.

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  stevebombsquad

Elite Member

Joined: 3/20/13
Posts: 605

9/20/13 5:32:02 AM#36
Originally posted by botrytis
Originally posted by RebelScum99
Originally posted by Neo_Viper

People wanted ultra hard boss fights in GW2, ANet proved it was possible without the trinity.

Now I'm counting the time until people whine that it's too hard.

There's a difference between "ultra hard" and overtuned.  Without the trinity, all they can really do it overtune the boss fights so that you get one-shot if you are standing in the wrong spot.  That's fine if that is the type of difficulty you are looking for, but personally I prefer a fight to be difficult AND strategy-intensive.  I'm not saying there isn't strategy involved, but it doesn't seem to involve a lot of complex mechanics and movement like you'd see in other trinity-based games.  

GW2 certainly does have some impressive looking bosses, though.  Pretty awe-inspiring when he hops down off the mountain.  The only thing I've noticed is that the over-sized boss mobs never seem to actually move anywhere.  They seem to be anchored to one position for most or all of the fight.  Are all the bigger boss mobs like this, or do they have ones that actually move around and chase people?

People - the trinity is a crutch for people WHO CAN'T THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX. This is the issue with most forum users here - they want what they want and complain when they can't get it. They want the trinity so the DPSers and Tanks don't have to look at their own HP bar. It is sad really.

 

It is not overtuned - you have be very coordinated, like a major real war battle - planned chaos.

Or maybe they just don't want to play Super Mario translated into a MMO....  Yes and in a successful army, believe it or not, people all have roles. 

James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?

  Gaia_Hunter

Elite Member

Joined: 5/04/12
Posts: 2588

9/20/13 6:04:45 AM#37
Originally posted by stevebombsquad

Or maybe they just don't want to play Super Mario translated into a MMO....  Yes and in a successful army, believe it or not, people all have roles. 

And they all are issued guns and have the same basic training.

Of course players aren't soldiers, they are adventurers.

If people don't like GW2 then don't buy and don't play GW2 - it is called voting with their wallets.

There are tons of MMORPGs out there with varied mechanics, so what is the problem if one or two are different?

Currently playing: GW2
Cooperative (semi cooperative)board games you should check: Pandemic, Sentinels of the Multiverse, Eldritch Horror, Descent 2.0,Level 7 Omega Protocol, Last Night on Earth

  User Deleted
9/20/13 6:39:36 AM#38
Originally posted by stevebombsquad
Originally posted by botrytis
Originally posted by RebelScum99
Originally posted by Neo_Viper

People wanted ultra hard boss fights in GW2, ANet proved it was possible without the trinity.

Now I'm counting the time until people whine that it's too hard.

There's a difference between "ultra hard" and overtuned.  Without the trinity, all they can really do it overtune the boss fights so that you get one-shot if you are standing in the wrong spot.  That's fine if that is the type of difficulty you are looking for, but personally I prefer a fight to be difficult AND strategy-intensive.  I'm not saying there isn't strategy involved, but it doesn't seem to involve a lot of complex mechanics and movement like you'd see in other trinity-based games.  

GW2 certainly does have some impressive looking bosses, though.  Pretty awe-inspiring when he hops down off the mountain.  The only thing I've noticed is that the over-sized boss mobs never seem to actually move anywhere.  They seem to be anchored to one position for most or all of the fight.  Are all the bigger boss mobs like this, or do they have ones that actually move around and chase people?

People - the trinity is a crutch for people WHO CAN'T THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX. This is the issue with most forum users here - they want what they want and complain when they can't get it. They want the trinity so the DPSers and Tanks don't have to look at their own HP bar. It is sad really.

 

It is not overtuned - you have be very coordinated, like a major real war battle - planned chaos.

Or maybe they just don't want to play Super Mario translated into a MMO....  Yes and in a successful army, believe it or not, people all have roles. 

People in GW2 also have roles. Just not crappy ones like in trinity.

You havent quite played GW2, have you?

  Wyrdfell

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/27/10
Posts: 233

In the abyss you make your own light.

9/20/13 6:54:38 AM#39


Originally posted by stevebombsquad
Or maybe they just don't want to play Super Mario translated into a MMO....  Yes and in a successful army, believe it or not, people all have roles. 

Don't you tired of failing all the time?

Playing : Eve Online - Guild Wars 2 - Ragnarok Online

Waiting for : The Division - H1Z1 - Elite Dangerous - Warhammer 40K

Legends : Warhammer Online - Knight Online - Guild Wars

  User Deleted
9/20/13 6:56:22 AM#40

The fight is not fun. That's all there is to it.

Its not strategically difficult. Everyone know the script, its just a matter of having enough dps to get him down before the arbitrary timer ends. Waiting 90 mins for it to start is boring. 15 mins of killing stupid mobs or dpsing the boss while jumping waves is boring. Mashing buttons on the turrets for 15 mins is boring.  Getting insulted and harassed by people who think they know how to lead people is no fun either. Being stuck in overflow is not fun.

At least with an easy boss, you down it in 2 mins and get a chest. The fight is still boring, but you get a reward to make it worth it.

Remove the timer, and Tequatl will be fine. No worse than Jormag, which is almost exactly the same. but doable.

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