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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » GW2 new content: wrong priorities?

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  Elikal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/09/06
Posts: 8067

“No path is darker then when your eyes are shut.” -Flemeth

 
OP  9/16/13 9:09:23 PM#1

I made this with a questionmark, naturally.

See, I have been hopping on and off of GW2, and... you know when I saw the ingame world map of GW2, and having playing GW1, I thought over the course of the following year(s), I'd see all those yet locked areas of the map of Tyria, and maybe other lands. Kinda like LOTRO did, at least in the first few years. They added new zones like Forochel asf. over time. New zones with real stories.

I do have this nagging feeling ANet is way to focussed on what I'd call fancy stuff. Granted, I haven't followed their content patches with scientific detail. But what I see is endless focus on holidays, schmancy stuff like the retro-pixel-legoland thing, and the nefarious "Living Story". You see, I really like the content of the first 30-40 levels as GW2 launched with, the most. It was diverse, it was interesting, and it told cool stories. But the higher level I got, the more narrow towards action it got, and the less of a story was told. But this fixation on the Living Story. Yes, it kinda does tell a story too. But... am I the only one who finds re-hashed existing zones kinda lame? Sorry to be blunt, but the entire Living Story stuff was boring and stupid. Grindy also. I can't entirely put my finger on it, but when I look at everything ANet added to the game content-wise, I don't feel there was anything awesome as the original content.

I mean, I always had the difficulty that the way GW2 tells stories and offers content, it take away a bit the story, the coherence. Something in all honesty I only see in classes quest-lines is really related. Hopping from event to event to event was nice a while, but also tiring and lacked this coherency of a story-arc. It was better in the first 30 or so levels, but after that.... and with the new content, I just feel not so happy, somehow. I would have preferred them making really new zones with new content and stories, tied to those zones, and forget about those over-done holidays and trinket-events.

A forum is a place where people can discuss about different opinions. So what I don't get is, how people react offended when they come to a forum and then find... well different opinions. If a different opinion offends you, what are you even doing here?

  Meowhead

Tipster

Joined: 1/31/09
Posts: 3719

9/16/13 9:25:40 PM#2

Well, they've already said that the holidays they did the first time around was to give them repeating content that goes year round.  So, for example, the Halloween and Christmas stuff will still be there, with a lot of what happened last year, WHILE they're adding actual new content.

Let's see how it plays out through October and December (The two big holidays).  If they're using that as maneuvering time to be able to work on more content... that's good.

They also said they're shifting to more permanent content being introduced.  Scarlet introduced permanent invasions.  After that it was a permanent addition to crafting (Up to 500).  Next patch is a permanent upgrade to one of the bosses (Along with story to explain why it happened).  If they keep adding permanent stuff at that rate, every 2 weeks, you'll be surprised how fast it adds up.

This year is supposed to be working through the Scarlet storyline and pushing towards....?  Not sure.  Depending upon where they go from this, it could be good or bad.  But they've only been going for 1 year, and if they're just starting to pick up steam... well, we'll see.

It's only been a year.  That's not really that long, and it's not like NOTHING happened during that year.  New zone, new puzzles, fractals, they basically patched up most of the problems, generally made all the content more rewarding.  A few sPvP maps.  And of course, all those various holiday events, which were mostly supposed to be set up so in continuing years they can keep popping it out.  (Like they won't have to redo all those minigames)

Since they have managed to start doing more permanent content since they said they would, and they haven't yet overlapped the time of the holiday creation, I'm willing to provisionally believe them that they'll be doing more stuff, more permanently.  If they haven't progressed over the next few months, then make me up some protest signs and I'll go marching with you, okay?

  Jackdog

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/19/04
Posts: 6261

9/16/13 9:27:01 PM#3

Game has only been out a year

 

to put it in perspective WOW was released in 2004, their first expansion was in 2007. Lotro introduced Foreschel a couple of months after release which added a zone that filled in for a ten level gap between late 20's and early 30's where players were having a hard time leveling. Got a feeling that zone was one that did not get finished in time for release.

 

I played and loved LoTRO for years  and they did provide a lot of updates but I did notice the quality of the books steadily decreased cumulation in the pay to win format they now use. I still have my lifetime sub but wont even load the game now becasue the way they structured the  F2P options.

Oh and Moria was LoTROs first real expansion was MOM which came out about 18 months after release

 

 

I miss DAoC

  Zapzap

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/31/13
Posts: 203

9/16/13 9:33:20 PM#4

GW2 is made for the ultra casual not for veteran players that play endgame.

 

The game and the content has always been designed for gamehoppers and to maximize short term revenue before these players become bored.   Not to keep people playing.

It is a fine game for what it is. But not something that will attract and keep people who want more complex, thoughtful, lasting or difficult gameplay. A simplistic but fun and well made game made and designed for the masses and the MMO media.

  Jackdog

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/19/04
Posts: 6261

9/16/13 9:38:47 PM#5
Originally posted by Zapzap

It is a fine game for what it is. But not something that will attract and keep people who want more complex. lasting or difficult gameplay.

by that I guess you are saying it is not for players who want to do the same raids repeatedly hoping to win the roll for a piece of uber gear that will be outdated when the next raid is released. An lets face \the average MMO raid consists of  tank does this, healer stands there and DD stand over in this spot is not terribly complex gameplay.

I miss DAoC

  Bad.dog

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/20/10
Posts: 896

9/16/13 10:31:26 PM#6
Originally posted by Zapzap

GW2 is made for the ultra casual not for veteran players that play endgame.

 

The game and the content has always been designed for gamehoppers and to maximize short term revenue before these players become bored.   Not to keep people playing.

It is a fine game for what it is. But not something that will attract and keep people who want more complex, thoughtful, lasting or difficult gameplay. A simplistic but fun and well made game made and designed for the masses and the MMO media.

WOW are you ever out to lunch ...there is so much end game to do the average player can't even come close to just doing the pve content , forget trying to wvw  on a regular basis .

 

Point 2 again not even close , what it does is not gate the content so if you miss a two week or even a two month period you can do the new content  but you may have missed the old ....unlike the old dungeon run games where you had to do dungeon A 30 times to do dungeon B 45 times to do dungeon C 60 times ( that's not content that's lazy ass trash development to keep a moron busy chasing  carrots on a stick)

 

I'm sorry but I haven't played  a complex thoughtful long lasting or difficult mmo since I started playing them in 2001 ....I sure hope your dream of difficulty isn't an instanced dungeon with a tank , an off tank ,three healers and 5 dps  doing a modern day version of "Simon Says" Until a game comes out with  the AI  smart enough to never be beaten twice by the same tactic or being as unpredictable as a skilled human opponent then complex and difficult just isn't something seen in todays mmo

  Siphaed

Elite Member

Joined: 1/17/08
Posts: 743

9/17/13 2:09:47 AM#7
Originally posted by Zapzap

GW2 is made for the ultra casual not for veteran players that play endgame.

 

The game and the content has always been designed for gamehoppers and to maximize short term revenue before these players become bored.   Not to keep people playing.

It is a fine game for what it is. But not something that will attract and keep people who want more complex, thoughtful, lasting or difficult gameplay. A simplistic but fun and well made game made and designed for the masses and the MMO media.

You've got to be totally kidding with me right now...right?  

 

With every patch over the past 3-4 patches has the content given harder completion materials that require dedicated time and effort that casuals wish they had.   To start with there is the Queen's Gauntlet.   Clockwork Chaos wasn't too challenging, but the build up content required to even get into Scarlet's Funhouse was ...not casual.   And with this last patch it stacked double extreme content:  Ascended Weapons with a bump to 500 crafting (requiring at the very least 60-80g worth of material investment AND 2 weeks time limitation on crafting specific materials) as well as the Super Adventure Box's tribulation modes and World #2.

 

What is tomorrow's (technically today since it's past midnight) patch going to hold?    TeQuatl is being turned into a complex, cooperation-required 80 man raid event instead of being the 6 minute loot piñata it used to be.  And WvW is getting a zerg splitting mechanic that also doubles as a process for which to complicate WvW on a grander scale.  

 

 

  RebelScum99

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/26/12
Posts: 1127

9/17/13 2:24:25 AM#8
Originally posted by Jackdog
by that I guess you are saying it is not for players who want to do the same raids repeatedly hoping to win the roll for a piece of uber gear that will be outdated when the next raid is released. An lets face \the average MMO raid consists of  tank does this, healer stands there and DD stand over in this spot is not terribly complex gameplay.

As opposed to the GW2 boss fights, that involve overtuned boss mobs that one-hit everything because ArenaNet hasn't figured out how to add actual strategy to non-trinity fights.  The end result is a chaotic dodge-and-spam fight that has far less complexity than a WoW-style raid fight., just a lot more chaos.

And hey, GW2 has a lot of people playing it so obviously there is a big market for gamers that are tired of the standard gear grind, trinity-based raiding system.  So more power to them, and it's great for those players who enjoy that.  

But can we at least not try to paint the GW2 endgame like it is some kind of step up from what has come before it?  Or that it requires any more skill or strategy than other MMOs?  Because that simply isn't true.

  User Deleted
9/17/13 2:47:04 AM#9
Originally posted by RebelScum99
Originally posted by Jackdog
by that I guess you are saying it is not for players who want to do the same raids repeatedly hoping to win the roll for a piece of uber gear that will be outdated when the next raid is released. An lets face \the average MMO raid consists of  tank does this, healer stands there and DD stand over in this spot is not terribly complex gameplay.

As opposed to the GW2 boss fights, that involve overtuned boss mobs that one-hit everything because ArenaNet hasn't figured out how to add actual strategy to non-trinity fights.  The end result is a chaotic dodge-and-spam fight that has far less complexity than a WoW-style raid fight., just a lot more chaos.

And hey, GW2 has a lot of people playing it so obviously there is a big market for gamers that are tired of the standard gear grind, trinity-based raiding system.  So more power to them, and it's great for those players who enjoy that.  

But can we at least not try to paint the GW2 endgame like it is some kind of step up from what has come before it?  Or that it requires any more skill or strategy than other MMOs?  Because that simply isn't true.

GW2 content is very easy, what GW2 has is chance to make truly difficult content opposed to trinity/gear check games where trinity is limiting factor that cannot be circumvented as fight can only be one one way - trinity way.

And yes, even in its easy state it requires more skill, and you seem to got some things backwards, if  you have no skill/strategy it will be chaos, if you have skill/strategy....completely different story.

But considering how many people have problems even in its current, easy state, i think its not actually wise to even add more difficult content.

  Muke

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/04/07
Posts: 1530

9/17/13 2:50:57 AM#10
Originally posted by Elikal

I made this with a questionmark, naturally.

See, I have been hopping on and off of GW2, and... you know when I saw the ingame world map of GW2, and having playing GW1, I thought over the course of the following year(s), I'd see all those yet locked areas of the map of Tyria, and maybe other lands. Kinda like LOTRO did, at least in the first few years. They added new zones like Forochel asf. over time. New zones with real stories.

I do have this nagging feeling ANet is way to focussed on what I'd call fancy stuff. Granted, I haven't followed their content patches with scientific detail. But what I see is endless focus on holidays, schmancy stuff like the retro-pixel-legoland thing, and the nefarious "Living Story". You see, I really like the content of the first 30-40 levels as GW2 launched with, the most. It was diverse, it was interesting, and it told cool stories. But the higher level I got, the more narrow towards action it got, and the less of a story was told. But this fixation on the Living Story. Yes, it kinda does tell a story too. But... am I the only one who finds re-hashed existing zones kinda lame? Sorry to be blunt, but the entire Living Story stuff was boring and stupid. Grindy also. I can't entirely put my finger on it, but when I look at everything ANet added to the game content-wise, I don't feel there was anything awesome as the original content.

I mean, I always had the difficulty that the way GW2 tells stories and offers content, it take away a bit the story, the coherence. Something in all honesty I only see in classes quest-lines is really related. Hopping from event to event to event was nice a while, but also tiring and lacked this coherency of a story-arc. It was better in the first 30 or so levels, but after that.... and with the new content, I just feel not so happy, somehow. I would have preferred them making really new zones with new content and stories, tied to those zones, and forget about those over-done holidays and trinket-events.

Look at it on the other side.

They develop a new zone, new public quests, new vistas etc.....and there comes int he population, speedrun and done in 1 day and they complain "this game is so boring, it needs new content"

"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  Jackdog

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/19/04
Posts: 6261

9/17/13 9:19:02 AM#11
Originally posted by RebelScum99

But can we at least not try to paint the GW2 endgame like it is some kind of step up from what has come before it?  Or that it requires any more skill or strategy than other MMOs?  Because that simply isn't true

 

You need to tell a good gaming buddy of mine that,. He hates GW2 because he  he can't stand in one spot with his mage and spam ranged spells and GW2 makes him have to dodge. His hand eye co ordiantion even makes jumping puzzles difficult for him. On the other hand he has no difficulty with most MMOs because there is no way to avoid and attack other than maybe an interrupt.  Even my Guardian tank use dodge because one of his traits does a minor group HOT when he dodges. My mesmer pops a clone up when he dodges and my Elementalist would be sushi if he stood in one place in a fight. One of the reasons I love GW2 is I can at least make use of my old circle strafing skills from my FPS days. Comes in handy as well as dodging behind a mob just before it unleashes a power attack as I do with my  Necro when she is running as a well specced necro

But  I guess you find it a real challenge to choose tank/healer/DPS at chracter creation then follow the breadcrumb trail for the first 50 - 80 lvls so you can get to raids that you do over and over until you manage toi win a roll on piece of gear that will be outdated as soon as the next raid is released. Enjoy if you think doing  that is really difficult. If I want a difficult game I play Chess, MMOs are just to kill time, anyone that considers any of them a difficult game is pretty pathetic in my opinion.  I had my daughter kicking butt in DAoC RvR by the time she was 11

 

 

I miss DAoC

  botrytis

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 2445

9/17/13 9:36:33 AM#12
Originally posted by Zapzap

GW2 is made for the ultra casual not for veteran players that play endgame.

 

The game and the content has always been designed for gamehoppers and to maximize short term revenue before these players become bored.   Not to keep people playing.

It is a fine game for what it is. But not something that will attract and keep people who want more complex, thoughtful, lasting or difficult gameplay. A simplistic but fun and well made game made and designed for the masses and the MMO media.

Veteran - lol - that is laugh. I have probably played as many as you have and beta tested even more but I think people who use these terms, 'veteran, hard core, etc.' really mean they have no life outside games.

 

GW2 is for everyone but will everyone be 100% happy with the game? No. It is a decent game for what it is. There are things I like in the game and things I despise. Nobody gets everything they want in this world.

 

An MMO SHOULD NOT HAVE ANY END GAME. If it does than it is a static world not a living world. So many people say that want a living world but only when it suits them and their end game mentality. END GAME MEANS JUST THAT - THE END - there is nothing more. End Game is a simplistic and sometimes fun (MOSTLY BORING RAIDS) technique to keep people roped into a game that has nothing else to offer. If you think RAIDS are difficult, they are not - once you memorize the mechanics of a fight it is sleep while bashing keys, kill boss and hope to get something you want

 

 Comment on bolded part - That is what they said about GW1 also. And guess what, it is still going and still has players.

"In 50 years, when I talk to my grandchildren about these days, I'll make sure to mention what an accomplished MMO player I was. They are going to be so proud ..."
by Naqaj - 7/17/2013 MMORPG.com forum

  Bigmamajama

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/18/13
Posts: 206

9/17/13 10:07:08 AM#13
Originally posted by Kenaoshi
Originally posted by RebelScum99
Originally posted by Jackdog
by that I guess you are saying it is not for players who want to do the same raids repeatedly hoping to win the roll for a piece of uber gear that will be outdated when the next raid is released. An lets face \the average MMO raid consists of  tank does this, healer stands there and DD stand over in this spot is not terribly complex gameplay.

As opposed to the GW2 boss fights, that involve overtuned boss mobs that one-hit everything because ArenaNet hasn't figured out how to add actual strategy to non-trinity fights.  The end result is a chaotic dodge-and-spam fight that has far less complexity than a WoW-style raid fight., just a lot more chaos.

And hey, GW2 has a lot of people playing it so obviously there is a big market for gamers that are tired of the standard gear grind, trinity-based raiding system.  So more power to them, and it's great for those players who enjoy that.  

But can we at least not try to paint the GW2 endgame like it is some kind of step up from what has come before it?  Or that it requires any more skill or strategy than other MMOs?  Because that simply isn't true.

[mod edit]

 

Filling rolls in end game raiding (healing, tanking, cc or cleansing) does take skill and lots of it.  if you don't think so then your a casual that's pugging easy mode dungeons or if your on the other end of the spectrum and have tanked and healed hard mode end game content then your good and don't know it.

GW2 every man for himself zerg fests are not skill my friend its called effort.  Having to assemble a highly competent group of players to fill specific rolls is far more involved then teaching people how to double tap and avoid the telegraph markers on the ground.

Very few players ever really completed the highest level end game content in MMO's before the days of easy mode raid pugs.  And there are still MMO's today that have content and difficulty setting that are reserved for the upper 10%.

GW2 is not one of them.

So ya filling green bars, holding agro at precisely the right times, ccing mobs and cleansing poisons and disease from players to avoid certain death does take skill and lots of it.  Also I'll take filling a specific role and being necessary to my group over being clone double tapping player number 345654 any day of the week.

  Neo_Viper

Novice Member

Joined: 5/10/13
Posts: 624

If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong.

9/17/13 10:22:58 AM#14
Originally posted by Bigmamajama 

Filling rolls in end game raiding (healing, tanking, cc or cleansing) does take skill and lots of it.  if you don't think so then your a casual that's pugging easy mode dungeons or if your on the other end of the spectrum and have tanked and healed hard mode end game content then your good and don't know it.

I've tanked hard/heroic mode raids in WoW for years, and I disagree. A game does not require the trinity in order to require player skill.

My computer is better than yours.

  Bigmamajama

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/18/13
Posts: 206

9/17/13 10:28:36 AM#15
Originally posted by Neo_Viper
Originally posted by Bigmamajama 

Filling rolls in end game raiding (healing, tanking, cc or cleansing) does take skill and lots of it.  if you don't think so then your a casual that's pugging easy mode dungeons or if your on the other end of the spectrum and have tanked and healed hard mode end game content then your good and don't know it.

I've tanked hard/heroic mode raids in WoW for years, and I disagree. A game does not require the trinity in order to require player skill.

If your effortlessly tanking heroics then congratulations your one of the skilled players and don't even know it.

  THEchad88

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/27/10
Posts: 38

Confusing use of time...(311 song lyric)

9/17/13 10:37:02 AM#16
Could be that the game itself has lost its luster for you. I admit i'm not playing as much and i'm trying to figure out why. One reason i'm not doing certain mmo's lately is a lack of my friends playing.
  Jackdog

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/19/04
Posts: 6261

9/17/13 10:37:09 AM#17
Originally posted by Bigmamajama
 

Filling rolls in end game raiding (healing, tanking, cc or cleansing) does take skill and lots of it.  if you don't think so then your a casual that's pugging easy mode dungeons or if your on the other end of the spectrum and have tanked and healed hard mode end game content then your good and don't know it.

 about as much skill as assembling burgers at a fast food joint.

 

Chess requires mental skill

FPS shooters require hand eye coordination and the ability to memorize maps

most MMOs require you press a button when needed, no aiming required. I normally play a healer because at least you need to know when to push the button as opposed to DPS classes which requires nothing more than targeting the mob and spamming DPS. I play MMOS have since text muds and love em but skill is not something I would use to describe them. Beats watching television

 I am looking forward to TEq 2.0 which will at least require learning when to run, when to fight and where to fight. Now if ANet can start putting timers on the champs to prevent zerg trains.......

I miss DAoC

  Neo_Viper

Novice Member

Joined: 5/10/13
Posts: 624

If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong.

9/17/13 10:50:01 AM#18
Originally posted by Bigmamajama
Originally posted by Neo_Viper
Originally posted by Bigmamajama 

Filling rolls in end game raiding (healing, tanking, cc or cleansing) does take skill and lots of it.  if you don't think so then your a casual that's pugging easy mode dungeons or if your on the other end of the spectrum and have tanked and healed hard mode end game content then your good and don't know it.

I've tanked hard/heroic mode raids in WoW for years, and I disagree. A game does not require the trinity in order to require player skill.

If your effortlessly tanking heroics then congratulations your one of the skilled players and don't even know it.

I never said heroics were effortless, or easy. I just said that the trinity is not required in order to create challenging content. I've played many games, both online and solo, which don't have the damned trinity and yet are at least as difficult as a WoW heroic raid.

My computer is better than yours.

  Kenaoshi

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/21/09
Posts: 1002

9/17/13 2:00:03 PM#19
Originally posted by Bigmamajama
[snip] 

Filling rolls in end game raiding (healing, tanking, cc or cleansing) does take skill and lots of it.  if you don't think so then your a casual that's pugging easy mode dungeons or if your on the other end of the spectrum and have tanked and healed hard mode end game content then your good and don't know it.

GW2 every man for himself zerg fests are not skill my friend its called effort.  Having to assemble a highly competent group of players to fill specific rolls is far more involved then teaching people how to double tap and avoid the telegraph markers on the ground.

Very few players ever really completed the highest level end game content in MMO's before the days of easy mode raid pugs.  And there are still MMO's today that have content and difficulty setting that are reserved for the upper 10%.

GW2 is not one of them.

So ya filling green bars, holding agro at precisely the right times, ccing mobs and cleansing poisons and disease from players to avoid certain death does take skill and lots of it.  Also I'll take filling a specific role and being necessary to my group over being clone double tapping player number 345654 any day of the week.

The green part. The same can be done in Gw2. It´s just not tied to a specific class. Please go  make COE, Arah or Fractals for reallity check.

I used to 4Box in Raids to help my guildies(Burning Crusade raids) and i tell you i would fall asleep quite frequently even though controlling 4 characters, because it was same static button pressing rotation.

GW2 DOES HAVE zerk content, world bosses, as any other mmo, which serve it's purpose - introduce player to group play, but the challenge is out there, for those who learn to master their characters.

 

 

now: GW2 (8 80s).
Dark Souls 2.
future: Mount&Blade 2 BannerLord.
"Bro, do your even fractal?"
Recommends: Guild Wars 2, Dark Souls, Mount&Blade: Warband, Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning.

  Meowhead

Tipster

Joined: 1/31/09
Posts: 3719

9/17/13 2:05:24 PM#20
Originally posted by Kenaoshi

GW2 DOES HAVE zerk content, world bosses, as any other mmo, which serve it's purpose - introduce player to group play, but the challenge is out there, for those who learn to master their characters.

 

 

Except they just revamped all the world bosses.  Tequatl more so than the others, but even other ones have gotten more complex and deadly.

But I fought the golem boss, and he was killing people left and right. :/

They're slowly planning on making all the world boss fights more complex.

They've already shown they can make fights more complex, with the F&F dungeon, the Aetherblade dungeon, and the Queen's Gauntlet.

They're finally starting to really work out how to add more strategy to their big fights, and how to make small fights considerably more complex if they want.

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