Trending Games | ArcheAge | WildStar | Elder Scrolls Online | Archlord 2

  Network:  FPSguru RTSguru
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,798,087 Users Online:0
Games:723  Posts:6,195,735
Recent forum postsRSS
Active threads
Cloud view
List all forums
General Forums
Developers Corner General Discussion
Popular Game Forums
Click a status to find game forum
Game Forums
Click a letter to find game forum
A-C
2029 Online 2112: Revolution 2Moons 4Story 8BitMMO 9 Dragons A Mystical Land A Tale in the Desert III A3 ACE Online ARGO Online Aberoth Absolute Force Online Absolute Terror Achaea Adellion Aerrevan Aetolia, the Midnight Age Age of Armor Age of Conan Age of Empires Online Age of Mourning Age of Wulin Age of Wushu Aida Arenas Aika Aion Albion Online Alganon All Points Bulletin (APB) Allods Online Altis Gates Amazing World Anarchy Online Ancients of Fasaria Andromeda 5 Angels Online Anime Trumps Anmynor Anno Online Applo Arcane Hearts Arcane Legends ArchLord ArcheAge Archeblade Archlord X Asda 2 Asda Story Ashen Empires Asheron's Call Asheron's Call 2 Astera Online Astonia III Astro Empires Astro Lords: Oort CLoud Asura Force Atlantica Online Atriarch Aura Kingdom Aurora Blade Auto Assault Avatar Star Battle Dawn Battle Dawn Galaxies Battle for Graxia Battle of 3 Kingdoms Battle of the Immortals Battlecruiser Online Battlestar Galactica Online Battlestar Reloaded Beyond Protocol Black Aftermath Black Desert Black Gold Black Prophecy Black Prophecy Tactics: Nexus Conflict Blacklight Retribution Blade & Soul Blade Hunter Blade Wars Blazing Throne Bless Blitz 1941 Blood and Jade Bloodlines Champions Bounty Bay Online Brain Storm Brawl Busters. Brick-Force Bright Shadow Bullet Run Business Tycoon Online CTRacer Cabal Online Caesary Call of Camelot Call of Gods Call of Thrones Camelot Unchained Canaan Online Cardmon Hero Cartoon Universe CasinoRPG Castle Empire Castlot Celtic Heroes Champions Online Champions of Regnum Chaos Online Chrono Tales Citadel of Sorcery CitiesXL Citizen Zero City of Decay City of Heroes City of Steam City of Transformers City of Villains Civilization Online Clan Lord Clash of Clans Cloud Nine Club Penguin Colony of War Command & Conquer: Tiberium Alliances Company of Heroes Online Conquer Online Conquer Online 3 Continent of the Ninth (C9) Core Blaze Core Exiles Corum Online Craft of Gods Crimecraft Crimelife 2 Cronous Crota II Crusaders of Solaris Cultures Online Cyber Monster 2 Céiron Wars
D-F
D&D Online DC Universe DK Online DOTA DOTA 2 DUST 514 DV8: Exile Dalethaan Dance Groove Online Dark Age of Camelot Dark Ages Dark Legends Dark Orbit Dark Relic: Prelude Dark Solstice Dark and Light DarkEden Online DarkSpace Darkblood Online Darkest Dungeon Darkfall Darkfall: Unholy Wars Darkwind: War on Wheels Das Tal Dawn of Fantasy Dawntide DayZ Dead Earth Dead Frontier Deco Online Deepworld Defiance Deicide Online Dekaron Demons at the Horizon Desert Operations Destiny Diablo 3 Diamonin Digimon Battle Dino Storm Disciple Divergence Divina Divine Souls Dofus Dominus Online Dragon Ball Online Dragon Born Online Dragon Crusade Dragon Empires Dragon Eternity Dragon Nest Dragon Oath Dragon Pals Dragon Raja Dragon's Call Dragon's Call II Dragon's Prophet DragonSky DragonSoul Dragona Dragonica Dragons and Titans Dream of Mirror Online Dreamland Online Dreamlords: The Reawakening Drift City Duels Dungeon Blitz Dungeon Fighter Online Dungeon Overlord Dungeon Party Dungeon Rampage Dungeon Runners Dynastica Dynasty Warriors Online Dynasty of the Magi EIN (Epicus Incognitus) EVE Online Earth Eternal Earth and Beyond Earthrise Eclipse War Ecol Tactics Online Eden Eternal Edge of Space Einherjar - The Viking's Blood Elder Scrolls Online Eldevin Elf Online Elite: Dangerous Embers of Caerus Emil Chronicle Online Empire Empire & State Empire Craft Empire Universe 3 EmpireQuest Empires of Galldon End of Nations Endless Ages Endless Blue Moon Online Endless Online Entropia Universe EpicDuel Erebus: Travia Reborn Eredan Eternal Blade Eternal Lands Eternal Saga Ether Fields Ether Saga Online Eudemons Online EuroGangster EverEmber Online EverQuest Next EverQuest Online Adventures Evernight Everquest Everquest II Evony Exarch Exorace F.E.A.R. Online Face of Mankind Fairyland Online Fall of Rome Fallen Earth Fallen Sword Fallout Online Family Guy Online Fantage Fantasy Earth Zero Fantasy Realm Online Fantasy Tales Online Fantasy Worlds: Rhynn Faunasphere Faxion Online Ferentus Ferion Fiesta Online Final Fantasy XI Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Firefall Fists of Fu Florensia Flyff Football Manager Live Football Superstars Force of Arms Forge Forsaken World Fortnite Fortuna Forum for Discussion of Everlight Freaky Creatures Free Realms Freesky Online Freeworld Fung Wan Online Furcadia Fury Fusion Fall
G-L
GalaXseeds Galactic Command Online Game of Thrones: Seven Kingdoms Gameglobe Gate To Heavens Gates of Andaron Gatheryn Gauntlet Gekkeiju Online Ghost Online Ghost Recon Online Gladiatus Glitch Global Agenda Global Soccer Gloria Victis Glory of Gods GoGoRacer Goal Line Blitz Gods and Heroes GodsWar Online Golemizer Golf Star GoonZu Online Graal Kingdoms Granado Espada Online Grand Chase Grand Fantasia Grepolis Grimlands Guild Wars Guild Wars 2 Guild Wars Factions Guild Wars Nightfall H1Z1 Habbo Hotel Hailan Rising HaloSphere2 Haven & Hearth Hawken Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft Helbreath Hellgate Hellgate: London Hello Kitty Online Hero Online Hero Zero Hero's Journey Hero: 108 Online HeroSmash Heroes & Generals Heroes in the Sky Heroes of Bestia Heroes of Gaia Heroes of Might and Magic Online Heroes of Thessalonica Heroes of Three Kingdoms Heroes of the Storm Hex Holic Online Hostile Space Hunter Blade Huxley Illutia Illyriad Immortals USA Imperator Imperian Inferno Legend Infestation: Survivor Stories Infinite Crisis Infinity Infinity Iris Online Iron Grip: Marauders Irth Worlds Island Forge Islands of War Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted Jade Dynasty Jagged Alliance Online Juggernaut Jumpgate Jumpgate Evolution KAL Online Kakele Online Kaos War Karos Online Kartuga Kicks Online King of Kings 3 Kingdom Heroes Kingdom Under Fire II Kingdom of Drakkar Kingory Kings and Legends Kings of the Realm KingsRoad Kitsu Saga Kiwarriors Knight Age Knight Online Knights of Dream City Kothuria Kung Foo! Kunlun Online L.A.W. LEGO Universe La Tale Land of Chaos Online Landmark Lands of Hope: Phoenix Edition LastChaos League of Angels League of Legends - Clash of Fates Legend of Edda: Vengeance Legend of Golden Plume Legend of Katha Legend of Mir 2 Legend of Mir 3 Legendary Champions Lego Minifigures Online Life is Feudal Light of Nova Lime Odyssey Line of Defense Lineage Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance Lineage II Linkrealms Loong Online Lord of the Rings Online Lords Online Lost Saga Lucent Heart Lunia Lusternia: Age of Ascension Luvinia World
M-Q
MU Online Mabinogi Maestia: Rise of Keledus MagiKnights Magic Barrage Magic World Online Manga Fighter MapleStory Martial Heroes Marvel Heroes Marvel Super Hero Squad Online Marvel: Avengers Alliance MechWarrior Online Megaten Meridian 59 : Evolution Merlin MetalMercs Metaplace Metin 2 MicroVolts Midkemia Online Might & Magic Heroes: Kingdoms MilMo Minecraft Mini Fighter Minions of Mirth Ministry of War Monato Esprit Monkey King Online Monkey Quest Monster & Me Monster Madness Online MonsterMMORPG Moonlight Online: Tales of Eternal Blood Mordavia Mortal Online Mourning My Lands Myst Online: URU Live Myth Angels Online Myth War Myth War 2 Mytheon Mythic Saga Mythos N.E.O Online NIDA Online Nadirim Naviage: The Power of Capital Navy Field Need for Speed World Nemexia Neo's Land NeoSteam Neocron Nether Neverwinter Nexus: The Kingdom Of The Winds NinjaTrick NosTale Novus Aeterno Oberin Odin Quest Odyssey RPG Ogre Island Omerta 3 Online Boxing Manager Onverse Order & Chaos Online Order of Magic Original Blood Origins Return Origins of Malu Orion's Belt Otherland Forums OverSoul Overkings Oz Online Oz World Pandora Saga Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Panzar Parabellum Parallel Kingdom Parfait Station Path of Exile Pathfinder Online Perfect World Perpetuum Online Phantasy Star Online 2 Phantasy Star Universe Phoenix Dynasty Online Phylon Pi Story Picaroon Pirate Galaxy Pirate Storm Pirate101 PirateKing Online Pirates of the Burning Sea Pirates of the Caribbean Online Pixie Hollow Planeshift Planet Arkadia Planet Calypso PlanetSide 2 Planetside Planets³ Playboy Manager Pocket Legends Pockie Ninja Pockie Pirates Pockie Saints PoxNora Prime World Prime: Battle for Dominus Priston Tale Priston Tale II Prius Online Project Blackout Project Powder Project Titan Forums Project Wiki Puzzle Pirates Quickhit Football
R-S
R2 Online RAN Online RF Online ROSE Online Rage of 3 Kingdoms Ragnarok Online Ragnarok Online II RaiderZ Rakion Rappelz RappelzSEA Ravenmarch Realm Fighter Realm of the Mad God Realm of the Titans Realms Online Reclamation Red Stone Red War: Edem's Curse Regnum Online Remnant Knights Renaissance Repulse Requiem: Memento Mori Rift RiotZone Rise Rise of Dragonian Era Rise of Empire Rise of the Tycoon Rising of King Risk Your Life Rivality Rockfree Rohan: Blood Feud Role Play Worlds Roll n Rock Roma Victor Romadoria Rosh Online Roto X Rubies of Eventide Ruin Online Rumble Fighter Runes of Magic Runescape Rust Rusty Hearts Ryzom S4 League SAGA SD Gundam Capsule Fighter Online SMITE SUN Sagramore Salem SaySayGirls Scarlet Blade Scions of Fate Seal Online: Evolution Second Life Secret of the Solstice Seed Serenia Fantasy Seven Seas Saga Seven Souls Online Sevencore Shadow of Legend Shadowbane Shadowrun Online Shaiya Shards Online Shattered Galaxy Sho Online Shot Online Shroud of the Avatar SideQuest Siege on Stars Sigonyth: Desert Eternity Silkroad Online Skyblade Skyforge SmashMuck Champions Smoo Online Soldier Front Soul Master Soul Order Online Soul of Guardian Space Heroes Universe Sparta: War of Empires Spellcasters Sphere Spiral Knights Spirit Tales Splash Fighters Squad Wars Star Citizen Star Sonata 2 Star Stable Star Supremacy Star Trek Online Star Trek: Infinite Space Star Wars Galaxies Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures Star Wars: The Old Republic StarQuest Online Stargate Worlds Starlight Story Starpires State of Decay SteelWar Online Stone Age 2 Stormfall: Age of War Storybricks Stronghold Kingdoms Sudden Attack Supremacy 1914 Supreme Destiny Sword Girls Sword of Destiny: Rise of Aions SwordX Swords of Heavens Swordsman
T-Z
TERA TS Online Tabula Rasa Tactica Online Tales Runner Tales of Fantasy Tales of Pirates Tales of Pirates II Tales of Solaris Talisman Online Tamer Saga Tank Ace Tantra Online Tatsumaki: Land at War Terra Militaris TerraWorld Online Thang Online The 4th Coming The Agency The Aurora World The Black Watchmen The Chronicle The Chronicles of Spellborn The Crew The Division The Hammers End The Legend of Ares The Lost Titans The Matrix Online The Mighty Quest for Epic Loot The Missing Ink The Mummy Online The Myth of Soma The Pride of Taern The Realm Online The Repopulation The Secret World The Sims Online The Strategems The West Theralon There Therian Saga Thrones of Chaos Tibia Tibia Micro Edition Tiger Knight Titan Siege Titans of Time Toontown Online Top Speed Topia Online Torchlight Total Domination Transformers Universe Traveller AR Travia Online Travian Trials of Ascension Tribal Hero Tribal Wars Tribes Universe Trickster Online Trove Troy Online True Fantasy Live Online Turf Battles Twelve Sky Twelve Sky 2 Twilight War Tynon U.B. Funkeys UFO Online URDEAD Online Ultima Forever: Quest for the Avatar Ultima Online Ultima X: Odyssey Ultimate Naruto Ultimate Soccer Boss Uncharted Waters Online Undercover 2: Merc Wars Underlight Unification Wars Universe Online Utopia Valkyrie Sky Vampire Lord Online Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Vanquish Space Vector City Racers Vendetta Online Victory - Age of Racing Vindictus Virtonomics Vis Gladius Visions of Zosimos VoidExpanse Voyage Century Online W.E.L.L. Online WAR (Warhammer Online) WAR2 Glory WYD Global Wakfu War Thunder War of 2012 War of Angels War of Legends War of Mercenaries War of Thrones War of the Immortals WarFlow Waren Story Wargame1942 Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade Warhammer 40K: Dark Millennium Online Warhammer Online: Wrath of Heroes Warkeepers Warrior Epic Wartune WebLords Wild West Online WildStar Wind of Luck WindSlayer 2 Wings of Destiny Wish Wizard101 Wizardry Online Wizards and Champions Wonder King Wonderland Online World Golf Tour World of Battles World of Darkness World of Heroes World of Kung Fu World of Pirates World of Speed World of Tanks World of Tanks Generals World of Warcraft World of Warplanes World of Warships World of the Living Dead WorldAlpha Wurm Online Xenocell Xiah Xsyon Xulu YS Online Yitien ZU Online Zentia Zero Online Zero Online: The Andromeda Crisis Zodiac Online Zombies Ate My Pizza eRepublik

MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

EverQuest Next

EverQuest Next 

General Discussion  » EQ:L - what's it gonna be?

5 Pages « 1 2 3 4 5 » Search
99 posts found
  tom_gore

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 1803

9/27/13 7:23:55 AM#61
Originally posted by Grahor
Originally posted by tom_gore

The problem is, "the magic" quite often creates other problems solving this one. Let's take your example. I haven't actually played PS2 and didn't do any real research on that, but as far as I can judge, PS2 engine have unloaded all the calculations of moving, ballistics and so on on clients' machines. Servers don't, actually, calculate any of that. As a direct consequence, PS2 is wide open for hacks of any sort whatsoever: wall-walking, speed hacks, intant headshots, etc. Simply because servers don't calculate any of that: client machine says to server: "I'm walking through that wall, because there is no wall here for me, honest!" and the server can't help but accept it - because it doesn't know if it's true or not, it doesn't do any of the calculations or checks.

 

That's the tradeoff. If the same engine will be used in EQ:N, with the same calculation unload to clients - you'll have all the same hacks in EQ:N, there is no way around it - that's the tradeoff. Tradeoffs of similar magnitude will have to be made for any "workarounds". Kind of black magic, eh. You often pay more than you get. :)

 

Scientist all around the world agree that nothing can exceed the speed of light, yet it doesn't stop them from researching ways of travelling from point A to point B faster than light, by various workarounds.

Dafuq?!!

 

Current theory says that nothing can't exceed the speed of light, because it's impossible - information transferring faster than light means travel in time. No workarounds can, even theoretically, help here, period.

 

What the scientists do (without any success, I have to add) is trying to find data to disprove current theory. That's not "researching ways to travel faster than light, using workarounds", it's "finding a way to run an experiment that demonstrates, that current theory is wrong". No "workarounds" involved.

There are ways to detect these hacks and ban them. But yes, client side calculation is the way to go if the game requires heavy calculation, such as the deformation of large masses of voxels. It's a tradeoff, but one that can again be worked around.

 

And no, the scientists are actually trying to figure ways to "make the way shorter" by bending space, therefore eliminating the need to exceed light speed locally.

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/glenn/technology/warp/ideachev.html

Interesting stuff, although currently at a very theoretical level and for all practical purposes could prove to be impossible.

My point was, even if some things are proved to be impossible, brilliant minds often find a way to work around the impossibilities.

 

 

  rounner

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/07/06
Posts: 532

9/27/13 7:35:06 AM#62
I've been writing terrain engines for over 15 years including several voxel engines (one a procedurally generated cave system including real-time octree LOD processing). I still would not claim to be an expert. Modern techniques like sparse voxel octrees are developed by top programmers and academics with input from parties like NVidia, i.e. they know what they are doing. Trying to say you know better is embarrassing. 
  AIMonster

Elite Member

Joined: 12/31/08
Posts: 2016

9/27/13 7:48:20 AM#63
Originally posted by Grahor

>>You don't have to transfer every voxel or voxel-object, rather transfer every operation from the player... it is basicly the same as you transfer movement or combat commandos, with the difference that you terraform/build the world with those commands. The terraforming/building can then be done both on the specific client and the server.<<

 

That's how they'll probably do it in EQ:N, even though it's not exactly as easy as you say. First of all, no mmorpg transfers movement or combat commands to client; server processes them and transfers to players the results of it; moreso, it's autocorrecting - you can lose a packet of 10 in transition, and the next packet will autocorrect the losses - that's called "lag" or "desinc", it can be small, but it's never zero.

 And yet again you prove you have no idea what you are talking about.  There are reasons teleport hacks, speed hacks, and hacks related to combat exist in games which are done completely client side.  While most of this is handled server side, MMOs do put a lot of things on the client side with with the server acting as a sort of regulator (syncing everything together) because after all by your own notion that voxels won't work due to memory footprint wouldn't handling all movement/combat related functions like hit detection for example for 1000s of players bog the server down tremendously?

However, if you build the terrain on a client this way, you can't afford to lose even a single one terrain-changing command, because then you'll have all the consequent commands to generate incorrect terrain and desinc the client with the server. And you can't exactly place autocorrect information into following packets - it's not as if it's a single object like player that simply changes its position and stats in time - it's a throng of independent objects. Imagine a hunded players generating them, say, once every 5 seconds, and you'll see an unholy amount of data you need to transfer in real time without errors.

 It doesn't matter how many voxel objects there are, but the size of each individual object.  Again with compression I can create a large set of voxels and compress them down where the overall data size is much smaller than the original set of voxels.  In a typical MMO I'd imagine player data has likely 1000X more data than a typical voxel which really only needs to store density and position - 3 floats and an integer.  Each voxel costs a whooping 16 bytes of memory.  If you have 100 million voxels, you're looking at somewhere around 1.5GB of memory and that's uncompressed.  No way a server with terabytes of data can store that!  It's TOO HARD!   You do not need to store color data in a voxel, and you can use alternate methods to display "faces" on a voxel.  There are also 100s (possibly 1000s) and players on a server at any given time, yet you don't seem to think the memory footprint they cause is a problem, yet voxels are?

Nevertheless, it's possible, and that's why I think they'll do it in EQ:N, with some limitations; but here we are talking about EQ:L, and the situation in EQ:L is different - you can't do in this way in EQ:L.

 Why can't it be done in EQ:L with the same limitations?  There is no reason something that works in EQ:N won't work in EQ:L or vise versa.  Obviously there are going to be some limitations.  You can't create any object you can imagine using the landmark system as that would just create the ridiculous situation you are trying to force on the game, instead you are likely going to have to build objects you want using a set of very flexible voxels.  The legos example I gave.

>>I am surprised that a experienced programmer, even with experience in client-server applications don't have the imagination to solve this very problem rather simple.. at least from a network traffic standpoint.<<

 

I always marveled on how easy and simple it is for people to solve all the problems in their heads... and how hard it is to actually implement. Remember SimCity debacle? SWTOR engine problems? GW2 Auction house? EvE Jita and FleetBattle lags? If all those things are so easy, it must've been reeeeel poopyheads working in those companies!

And humanity really needs people like you telling them they can't do something because they have limited knowledge of the way things are supposed to work.  I'm sure people like you are the pillars of progress in our society.

If anything my experience taught me, it's that there are no "simple solutions" in networking.

Though I certainly never worked on a project as large as a AAA MMO like EQNext, I've always found network coding to be one of the simplest aspect of game programmer.  Certainly it's more difficult than simple game logic, but I find programming 3D Graphics Engines with the complicated math (and the need to understand how everything works) to be far more difficult, followed by AI programming.  There is a good reason why Technical Artists are one of the highest paid positions in game programming.

 

Raptr link because it's the cool new trend:

  Grahor

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/08/11
Posts: 854

 
OP  9/27/13 9:25:39 AM#64
Originally posted by rounner
I've been writing terrain engines for over 15 years including several voxel engines (one a procedurally generated cave system including real-time octree LOD processing). I still would not claim to be an expert. Modern techniques like sparse voxel octrees are developed by top programmers and academics with input from parties like NVidia, i.e. they know what they are doing. Trying to say you know better is embarrassing. 

*siiiiigh* I don't claim to know better than the programmers. I claim that users on this forum misunderstand what programmers say and/or public relations people in companies slightly bend the truth. 

 

Why people aren't even bothering to read what I write?

 

And while hierarchical octrees keeping occlusion datastructure and sh!t are a neat idea which demands a sh!tload of fancy math, it doesn't have anything to do with things we are trying to dicuss here.

  Grahor

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/08/11
Posts: 854

 
OP  9/27/13 9:37:06 AM#65
Originally posted by tom_gore

There are ways to detect these hacks and ban them.

If forums are anything to go by, SOE is a bit lagging in that department. Even, though, it would be easy - see? This word again - easy! - to, say, calculate on the fly the percentage of headshots or speed of movement by players and ban them, again, "on the fly", without any human involvement, computer-speed fast :) - oh, so easy, right? And yet, and yet... Something stops programmers from implementing such easy things, eh?

But yes, client side calculation is the way to go if the game requires heavy calculation, such as the deformation of large masses of voxels. It's a tradeoff, but one that can again be worked around.

We shall see, we shall see.

 

And no, the scientists are actually trying to figure ways to "make the way shorter" by bending space, therefore eliminating the need to exceed light speed locally.

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/glenn/technology/warp/ideachev.html

Interesting stuff, although currently at a very theoretical level and for all practical purposes could prove to be impossible.

Those ideas are still going against current understanding of theory of relativity; say, same wormhole idea would still be a time machine, with which you would be able to travel into past; and if any of them will be implemented, the current theory would have to be amended or replaced; I think it was called "workarounds" for "public relations" reasons - rather than to explain the complexities...

My point was, even if some things are proved to be impossible, brilliant minds often find a way to work around the impossibilities.

Oh, there is nothing theoretically impossible in fully destructible voxel mmorpg; it's purely engineering problem, and my doubts are simply in the area of "can it be done in the way that is hoped for on forums, right now, in current condition of mmorpg market and infrastructure, by SOE, within reasonable limits of time/money spent".

 

And engineering problems are nothing to sneeze at; we still don't have our flying cars, even if we, apparently, it looks like, could get our jetpacks soon. :)

 

We shall see if that particular engineering problem will be solved and how, or if it'll be done with practicly same functionality (instanced) but at fraction of the cost.

  tom_gore

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 1803

9/27/13 10:59:25 AM#66
Originally posted by Grahor

Oh, there is nothing theoretically impossible in fully destructible voxel mmorpg; it's purely engineering problem, and my doubts are simply in the area of "can it be done in the way that is hoped for on forums, right now, in current condition of mmorpg market and infrastructure, by SOE, within reasonable limits of time/money spent".

 

And engineering problems are nothing to sneeze at; we still don't have our flying cars, even if we, apparently, it looks like, could get our jetpacks soon. :)

 

We shall see if that particular engineering problem will be solved and how, or if it'll be done with practicly same functionality (instanced) but at fraction of the cost.

We shall see, yes. Obviously doing it instanced is easier and cheaper, but will it satisfy the customers so that they start throwing money at SOE? That's what's on the other cup of the scale.

 

  dandurin

Elite Member

Joined: 5/19/04
Posts: 378

9/29/13 7:08:14 PM#67
Originally posted by Grahor

.....

 

As for reading Voxelfarm blog, I've read it very carefully. Exciting and wondrous thing, but I don't think it says what you think it says. Could you please link to specific posts that support, in any way, your assertion that run-though compressing is easy to do in a massive multiplayer real time environment? Because as far as I remember Voxelfarm run-through compression is used to store things in single-player environment, and not actually in realtime.

 

Ask and you shall receive.  This video is the "smoking gun" for the now-dead client-instance argument.  

 

RIP thread.

 

http://procworld.blogspot.com/2013/03/network-update.html#comment-form

 

knarfMarch 30, 2013 at 4:09 PM

How would this work with scaling? Suppose you where to make this into an MMO, would it be possible to have multiple server applications running on different machines being responsible for a little part each?

  • Yes, this was one of the design goals. All these components align with the main octree used to represent everything in the world. So you can have servers dedicated to some octants. The more load you have in one section, the more divisions you can make. This also allows a seamless experience, that is, no world zones.

  • KamicaMarch 30, 2013 at 7:26 PM

    Wait, so you mean theoretically you could have a minecraft like games, where hundreds, if not thousands of people play in the same world? (If you have enough servers to work with)
    If so, that's amazing...

  • Yes, that is one possible application.

 

 

 

 

  arcatom

Novice Member

Joined: 11/17/09
Posts: 33

Knights of columbus that hurt

9/29/13 9:45:24 PM#68
Originally posted by dandurin
Originally posted by Grahor

.....

 

As for reading Voxelfarm blog, I've read it very carefully. Exciting and wondrous thing, but I don't think it says what you think it says. Could you please link to specific posts that support, in any way, your assertion that run-though compressing is easy to do in a massive multiplayer real time environment? Because as far as I remember Voxelfarm run-through compression is used to store things in single-player environment, and not actually in realtime.

 

Ask and you shall receive.  This video is the "smoking gun" for the now-dead client-instance argument.  

 

RIP thread.

 

http://procworld.blogspot.com/2013/03/network-update.html#comment-form

 

knarfMarch 30, 2013 at 4:09 PM

How would this work with scaling? Suppose you where to make this into an MMO, would it be possible to have multiple server applications running on different machines being responsible for a little part each?

  • Yes, this was one of the design goals. All these components align with the main octree used to represent everything in the world. So you can have servers dedicated to some octants. The more load you have in one section, the more divisions you can make. This also allows a seamless experience, that is, no world zones.

  • KamicaMarch 30, 2013 at 7:26 PM

    Wait, so you mean theoretically you could have a minecraft like games, where hundreds, if not thousands of people play in the same world? (If you have enough servers to work with)
    If so, that's amazing...

  • Yes, that is one possible application.

 

 

 

 

Nice find. This gets me really excited about EQ:L. Quite to blow to the naysayers of this thread

  Grahor

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/08/11
Posts: 854

 
OP  9/30/13 1:22:35 AM#69

>>http://procworld.blogspot.com/2013/03/network-update.html#comment-form<<

 

*blink, blink*

 

I'm sorry, what? THIS is your "smocking gun" and "death blow"? As if I somehow didn't watch this video (which I, by the way, have cited earlier in support of my position) or didn't read the comments? You mean, those very careful "theoretically, it's possible" means "yes, yes, it's happening right now!"??

 

This idea, dynamic division of servers depending on load, each running a part of single world, is pretty much ancient; EvE is built on it (although I have no idea if it used octan tree model or some other); every MMORPG, theoretically, independently of using voxels or not, could use this server architecture model to have a single world and not be separated to servers. Imagine GW2, SWTOR, TESO, etc without separate "servers", using dynamic server division model to hold a single world for anyone to live in, like EvE does.

 

Theoretically, it's not less possible than doing the same in EQ:L.

 

Theoretically, a flying car can be build.

 

I always accepted that there is nothing impossible, in theory, with making a single non-instanced world in EQ:L; see my posts above. However, practicly, there are some pesky engineering problems with both scenarios; specifically, in this case, I can immediately think of 2: 

 

1) you may not make servers hold a piece of world less than some amount, you need to hold on one server at least the part players can immediately see. Which means that while this architecture can hold thousands of players distributed across the world, any shout like "hey, here's great big tonker being built right here, let's go watch it!" will crush the system.

 

2) you need a metric fcukload of servers for that, all connected into one currently completely undeveloped dynamic octree server networking architecture. ("Theoretically can be done" doesn't mean "I did it and it's working!") We are talking at the very least EvE's level of server numbers and supporting programming; a decade of development compressed in - what? Next half year? - horrendous (and pointless!) expenses compared to instanced building. NOT gonna happen, as it didn't happen with all the other mmorpgs which _could, theoretically_ use that model for a single-server instanceless world.

 

It's a toy gun you are showing here.

  dandurin

Elite Member

Joined: 5/19/04
Posts: 378

9/30/13 3:41:29 PM#70
Originally posted by Grahor

>>http://procworld.blogspot.com/2013/03/network-update.html#comment-form<<

 

*blink, blink*

 

I'm sorry, what? THIS is your "smocking gun" and "death blow"? As if I somehow didn't watch this video (which I, by the way, have cited earlier in support of my position) or didn't read the comments? You mean, those very careful "theoretically, it's possible" means "yes, yes, it's happening right now!"??

 

One measley guy, who you claim did not need "mad skill", did all this and load tested it with hundreds of simulataneous pseudo user clients querying at faster-than-human rates. Yet you claim SOE doesn't have the resouces to make distributed servers happen on their flagship project?!

However, practicly, there are some pesky engineering problems with both scenarios; specifically, in this case, I can immediately think of 2:

1) you may not make servers hold a piece of world less than some amount, you need to hold on one server at least the part players can immediately see. Which means that while this architecture can hold thousands of players distributed across the world, any shout like "hey, here's great big tonker being built right here, let's go watch it!" will crush the system.

Why exactly will a bunch of  viewers "crush the system?"   So the server needs to send out 100 extra copies of the same, very small set of half-second updates?  So what? The per-second building updates are no different than combat updates.  And they can throttle them so you get less regular updates as load increases. 

The only thing that would crush the system would be, as Miguel Cepero clearly states in the video, if you had to get updates for every building everywhere in the world instantaneously.   And he's solves this by sending updates from distant towers at a diminishing rate.

 

If you're claiming "I bet they can't have X thousand people watching a building up close", I would respond that I bet MMOs can't have X thousand people watching the same raid up close either.

 

 

2) you need a metric fcukload of servers for that, all connected into one currently completely undeveloped dynamic octree server networking architecture. ("Theoretically can be done" doesn't mean "I did it and it's working!") We are talking at the very least EvE's level of server numbers and supporting programming; a decade of development compressed in - what? Next half year? - horrendous (and pointless!) expenses compared to instanced building. NOT gonna happen, as it didn't happen with all the other mmorpgs which _could, theoretically_ use that model for a single-server instanceless world.

What's so great about "EVE's level of server numbers?".  SOE is a lot bigger than an independent outfit in Iceland and they have plenty of experience with distributed servers.  And why do they need "a metric fcukload"?  There's just not that much you can build in a couple of seconds.   They've already clearly stated "There will be no creative mode".  Thus, it's an MMO, not a client design tool.

 

WoW has a seamless world that is presumably supported by lots of servers.   It's been around forever.  And EQNext has been advertised as seamless since forever, so much of the architecture is probably in place and just needs to be converted to octtrees.   What's so mind-bending about it?

 

 

It's a toy gun you are showing here.

Perfect for a toy argument.

  Metrobius

Novice Member

Joined: 6/16/05
Posts: 93

9/30/13 6:05:50 PM#71
I dont know who's right or wrong in this debate, but your arrogance makes you seem like a caricature, Grahor.
I think you're going to be proven wrong, from everything I have read and watched about eqn and eqnl. I'll never know though because I'll be playing the game by the time we can know for sure and not lurking this forum.
  nisrak

Novice Member

Joined: 8/10/13
Posts: 70

9/30/13 6:27:55 PM#72

None of these arguments take into account the increasing capability of commercial hardware.  Any argument about WoW or EVE or any other MMO built a decade ago is pretty much invalid because hardware is so much more advanced now.  By Moore's law the density (number of transistors) in integrated circuits doubles every 18 months (memory and processing power increase as a similar rate).  Networking technology has also advanced astronomically.

EVE was released in 2003.  A decade is lifetime in computer hardware.

  Grahor

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/08/11
Posts: 854

 
OP  10/01/13 4:07:34 AM#73
Originally posted by Metrobius
I dont know who's right or wrong in this debate, but your arrogance makes you seem like a caricature, Grahor.

That's because people I'm arguing with are a caricature in itself. It's not possible to argue with them seriously. I mean, the post above this one assumes that EvE is currently running on the hardware it was built on. What can anyone possibly say to that?

 

I really can't answer the posts anymore. Even my arrogance, which I've used as shield to protect myself from sheer lack of knowledge and understanding is broken; I'm sitting here naked and crying, defeated by the hydra of stupidity. :)

 

And thus I'm turning my tail and running from the thread, for I can't fight anymore, and let my opponents jubilate and dance on the streets. :)

  pmcubed

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/17/05
Posts: 291

10/01/13 4:54:26 AM#74
Originally posted by Grahor
Originally posted by Metrobius
I dont know who's right or wrong in this debate, but your arrogance makes you seem like a caricature, Grahor.

That's because people I'm arguing with are a caricature in itself. It's not possible to argue with them seriously. I mean, the post above this one assumes that EvE is currently running on the hardware it was built on. What can anyone possibly say to that?

 

I really can't answer the posts anymore. Even my arrogance, which I've used as shield to protect myself from sheer lack of knowledge and understanding is broken; I'm sitting here naked and crying, defeated by the hydra of stupidity. :)

 

And thus I'm turning my tail and running from the thread, for I can't fight anymore, and let my opponents jubilate and dance on the streets. :)

I've been secretly watching you in this thread.  I will throw you a bone and agree with you.  EQ:L will be a bland instanced disappointment.  In order to update all that information realtime, you would need a 2050 internet infrastructure and a super computer (by today's standards).

Each personal instance of EQ:L will exist as some lobby to join where you will subsequently download that person's data.  And that estimation is very liberal and idealistic.  Who's to say your personal claim will even have a multiplayer feature?  Maybe all you can do is record yourself walking around and upload it to youtube?

As Grahor is basically arguing, people need to have realistic expectations of EQ:L.  People are overhyping this system, which by realistic standards wont be the sandbox utopia everyone has been dreaming of; modern technology simply won't support it. 

My most generous prediction is that, like the video, you throw down your flag and claim some territory.  This flag will act as the entrance to your "area of minecraftable land"  People can then hover over a field of flags until they find your name and click on it to zone into your work. That is my expectation of EQ:L.  There is no way in hell there will be actual tracks of land that exist in a massive multiplayer arena which can be edited real-time while you share the same space with 10's of 100's of others.  Not for another 50 years at least.

  tom_gore

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 1803

10/01/13 5:15:03 AM#75
Originally posted by Grahor
Originally posted by Metrobius
I dont know who's right or wrong in this debate, but your arrogance makes you seem like a caricature, Grahor.

That's because people I'm arguing with are a caricature in itself. It's not possible to argue with them seriously. I mean, the post above this one assumes that EvE is currently running on the hardware it was built on. What can anyone possibly say to that?

 

I really can't answer the posts anymore. Even my arrogance, which I've used as shield to protect myself from sheer lack of knowledge and understanding is broken; I'm sitting here naked and crying, defeated by the hydra of stupidity. :)

 

And thus I'm turning my tail and running from the thread, for I can't fight anymore, and let my opponents jubilate and dance on the streets. :)

Well you've got nothing to lose, really. If you are correct, you can be here gloating around your "victory" with the hundreds of disappointed EQNext fans. If you're wrong, no one ever will remember you saying anything.

 

  Lorgarn

Elite Member

Joined: 7/07/07
Posts: 334

"Rock's longest, strangest trip, the Grateful Dead"

10/01/13 5:39:51 AM#76

Interesting thread to say the least.

 

As I'm not equipped with any kind of knowledge about the technical side regarding the topic, I wont comment on that. I'll say though that if my building is actually done behind "the scene" if you will, in my own building phase/instance, I'm somewhat disappointed. Although with picturing that scenario, I'm still interested in Landmark.

 

I've been playing Minecraft since early Alpha and today I'm co-admin on a very successful and still quite popular Minecraft server. As you can imagine I've placed thousands and thousands of blocks, with most of them being placed by myself. Unless you're working on a "community project" if you will, most of the building is actually done "in private". As in every player is at their own little spot and building, rarely bringing people over untill it's about complete.

 

It's a thing I will be somewhat sad over, but it's definitely not game-breaking for me personally.

[Contact me directly at:@ItsLorgarn]-[ Welcome to DivinityCraft ]-[Check out: ItsLorgarn]

  nisrak

Novice Member

Joined: 8/10/13
Posts: 70

10/01/13 6:19:18 AM#77
Originally posted by Grahor
Originally posted by Metrobius
I dont know who's right or wrong in this debate, but your arrogance makes you seem like a caricature, Grahor.

That's because people I'm arguing with are a caricature in itself. It's not possible to argue with them seriously. I mean, the post above this one assumes that EvE is currently running on the hardware it was built on. What can anyone possibly say to that?

You missed the point of my post.  Obviously nobody would continue using hardware for 10 years, but the entire system was designed around hardware that was much less powerful.   Creating a system based on new hardware allows for a much more ambitious design.

As you said, this argument is totally pointless.  None of us have worked on designing an MMO before or really know any technical details about landmark.  All I can say is I've been really impressed with everything I've seen from Voxelfarm and am excited to see more.

  Nadia

Elite Member

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11310

10/01/13 8:15:12 AM#78
Originally posted by nisrak

 I've been really impressed with everything I've seen from Voxelfarm and am excited to see more.

same - should be seeing a playable EQN Landmark in the next 4 months

  dandurin

Elite Member

Joined: 5/19/04
Posts: 378

10/01/13 1:16:43 PM#79
Originally posted by pmcubed
I've been secretly watching you in this thread.  I will throw you a bone and agree with you.  EQ:L will be a bland instanced disappointment.  In order to update all that information realtime, you would need a 2050 internet infrastructure and a super computer (by today's standards).

Each personal instance of EQ:L will exist as some lobby to join where you will subsequently download that person's data.  And that estimation is very liberal and idealistic.  Who's to say your personal claim will even have a multiplayer feature?  Maybe all you can do is record yourself walking around and upload it to youtube?

As Grahor is basically arguing, people need to have realistic expectations of EQ:L.  People are overhyping this system, which by realistic standards wont be the sandbox utopia everyone has been dreaming of; modern technology simply won't support it. 

My most generous prediction is that, like the video, you throw down your flag and claim some territory.  This flag will act as the entrance to your "area of minecraftable land"  People can then hover over a field of flags until they find your name and click on it to zone into your work. That is my expectation of EQ:L.  There is no way in hell there will be actual tracks of land that exist in a massive multiplayer arena which can be edited real-time while you share the same space with 10's of 100's of others.  Not for another 50 years at least.

I respect that you are picking up the flag for an unpopular position, not everyone would do that.

 

That said, you haven't addressed any of the arguments about why Landmark doesn't need to be significantly more taxing than any other MMO.

 

Think about what happens in a shared (non-instanced) dungeon now in, say, WoW.   Or better yet, mass PVP.

 

You can have 100 different people kiling 100 different entities at the same time.  Each of these 100 people has to get constant updates for every player and every entity animation.  Even if some of the entities are out of sight, the players still have to be notified of position updates and deaths.

 

So the question is:  what's the big deal about building?   A combat mouseclick isn't sending any less information than a building mouseclick.   Yes, it's true that building changes last for a long time.   So what?   

a) Building updates can be streamed to nearby viewers, just like combat data now

b) Distant yet visible updates (towers) can be delayed and bundled before streaming

c) Construction done while the user is offline can be packaged and downloaded at login time

d) Local construction updates can be streamed to the user as he travels around the world

 

If you've seen the EQ2 "raptor" icon, you know that SOE has experience with live terrain downloading.  You can get into that game in 3 minutes on a clean machine, and it streams uninstalled content as you move around.

 

100's of people all building on the same site would be very taxing, and would probably require ramping up the refresh lag, but I don't see that 100 people watching a build is a big deal.   Putting 100's of people in the same space is taxing for any MMO, I don't see why Landmark should be held to a higher standard.

 

I don't see why this has to be 2050 science fiction.

  pmcubed

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/17/05
Posts: 291

10/01/13 1:35:22 PM#80
Originally posted by dandurin
-cut for length-

I don't see why this has to be 2050 science fiction.

Well, I'm not as privy on technical specs as Grahor, I'm just looking at it logically.

Also, if you watch the EQ:L video's. The avatar is floating around above the terrain.  

How are you supposed to mimic the physics of EQ:N (where you have gravity holding you to the ground) while still being able to float up in the air and edit your terrain?

The answer:  You are in a completely different zone.  Or better yet, EQ:L is a totally different program completely separate from EQ:N.  You just use it as an editor of sorts to be ported into the actual game later.

5 Pages « 1 2 3 4 5 » Search