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Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn

Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn 

General Discussion  » F2P and P2P : A quirky side argument

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36 posts found
  IceAge

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/23/05
Posts: 886

9/09/13 2:59:01 AM#21
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by echolynfan
Originally posted by Aldous.Huxley
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by kaz350

F2P games normally have cash shops filled with "vanity" items that you "dont need"  or dont affect gameplay so they say.

I just want to say...I have tons of minions (pets) in FF14....there is no way in hell if FF14 was a F2P game would I have ever paid a dime for any of them.

But since they are included in my sub, I love them, I collect them....they acutally put a smile on my face while I'm adventuring....

Who says these items dont affect gameplay??

Long live Pay to Play.

You like to rent your minions monthly. There is  no way in hell I would pay a box fee and then a monthly rental to collect minions I get to pay rent on monthly.  I don't like to rent my games or the minions therein.

Long live you renting your games and long live me not renting the games I play.

I'm with the OP on this one. I would much rather pay rent for an apartment on Park Ave than live for free at the homeless shelter.

 

Everyone's standards are different though. /shrug

This ^

lol, yeah. That's a compelling argument. Either someone has never been a landowner or someone isn't being honest. If you want to pay another person's mortgage for them go ahead.

Like I said long live you renting and and long live me being an owner.  I don't begrudge you renting, but your perfect solution doesn't fit me.

Owner .. lol! LOL !  LOOL ! You made my day!

On the other hand, you are no more a owner then the guy paying a monthly fee. No one is owning anything. Neither you , neither him!

Secondly, yes, long live P2P.

Reporter: What's behind Blizzard success, and how do you make your gamers happy?
Blizzard Boss: Making gamers happy is not my concern, making money.. yes!

  Phry

Elite Member

Joined: 7/01/04
Posts: 4742

9/09/13 3:19:34 AM#22
Originally posted by LacedOpium
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by echolynfan
Originally posted by Aldous.Huxley
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by kaz350

F2P games normally have cash shops filled with "vanity" items that you "dont need"  or dont affect gameplay so they say.

I just want to say...I have tons of minions (pets) in FF14....there is no way in hell if FF14 was a F2P game would I have ever paid a dime for any of them.

But since they are included in my sub, I love them, I collect them....they acutally put a smile on my face while I'm adventuring....

Who says these items dont affect gameplay??

Long live Pay to Play.

You like to rent your minions monthly. There is  no way in hell I would pay a box fee and then a monthly rental to collect minions I get to pay rent on monthly.  I don't like to rent my games or the minions therein.

Long live you renting your games and long live me not renting the games I play.

I'm with the OP on this one. I would much rather pay rent for an apartment on Park Ave than live for free at the homeless shelter.

 

Everyone's standards are different though. /shrug

This ^

lol, yeah. That's a compelling argument. Either someone has never been a landowner or someone isn't being honest. If you want to pay another person's mortgage for them go ahead.

Like I said long live you renting and and long live me being an owner.  I don't begrudge you renting, but your perfect solution doesn't fit me.

 

What exactly do you own, pray tell?  In F2P games you are no more an owner than the next free loader.  If you were really an owner, you could tell the other players to get off your property, but that isn't the case, is it?  In F2P games, you are essentially living for free.  If an analogy must be made, whereas he is renting in Park Avenue, you are living in the projects, and guess what?  Not everybody chooses to live in the projects, even though there ... you can live rent free.

One of the best analogies i've read, and funny too, i think you pwned that particular one anyway. P2P and F2P, or even B2P each have their own pro's and cons. For those not really wishing to invest too much into a game, in terms of either cash or time, though tbh i value each equally, then floating from F2P game to F2P game is probably ideal, P2P is really more for people who invest both time and cash into a game for the long term. My problem is i like too many games.. which is probably why im currently subbed to like 4 of them.. Eve, Planetside2, SW;TOR and... FF XIV:ARR.  I had been playing Planetside2 as a F2P player, but once i subbed it seemed i got better at the game, it could be psychological, but personally i put it down to Rocket Pods... the free SC you get for subbing bought them  :D

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5183

Opportunist

9/09/13 10:59:33 AM#23
Originally posted by LacedOpium
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by echolynfan
Originally posted by Aldous.Huxley
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by kaz350

F2P games normally have cash shops filled with "vanity" items that you "dont need"  or dont affect gameplay so they say.

I just want to say...I have tons of minions (pets) in FF14....there is no way in hell if FF14 was a F2P game would I have ever paid a dime for any of them.

But since they are included in my sub, I love them, I collect them....they acutally put a smile on my face while I'm adventuring....

Who says these items dont affect gameplay??

Long live Pay to Play.

You like to rent your minions monthly. There is  no way in hell I would pay a box fee and then a monthly rental to collect minions I get to pay rent on monthly.  I don't like to rent my games or the minions therein.

Long live you renting your games and long live me not renting the games I play.

I'm with the OP on this one. I would much rather pay rent for an apartment on Park Ave than live for free at the homeless shelter.

 

Everyone's standards are different though. /shrug

This ^

lol, yeah. That's a compelling argument. Either someone has never been a landowner or someone isn't being honest. If you want to pay another person's mortgage for them go ahead.

Like I said long live you renting and and long live me being an owner.  I don't begrudge you renting, but your perfect solution doesn't fit me.

What exactly do you own, pray tell?  In F2P games you are no more an owner than the next free loader.  If you were really an owner, you could tell the other players to get off your property, but that isn't the case, is it?  In F2P games, you are essentially living for free.  If an analogy must be made, whereas he is renting in Park Avenue, you are living in the projects, and guess what?  Not everybody chooses to live in the projects, even though there ... you can live rent free.

Are you being willfully obtuse or do you really not understand the difference between owning and renting virtual goods? I most certainly can prevent people from accessing and using my virtual goods and my account.  I "own" those, even though the definition differs from that of personal and real property.  Not everything is equal.  Real property ownership carries with in inherent rules, rights, and responsibilities, as does personal property, as does virtual property.  We already have fairly clear definitions of the first two along with long established rights and rules.  Virtual property ownership does exist and has been acknowledged, but is still young and it is not defined the same way personal or real properties are.  For example first sale carries more weight with personal property than virtual and has many more privileges attached to it, yet both exist.

So the difference is that when I am an "owner" of a virtual item, I can use it for the existing life of that license because that's how virtual property is being defined. No, I don't own it like i do real property or even personal property, but I do have more rights with it than I do with renting access to a service.

Here is an example.  I "buy" a digital movie on VUDU or Amazon.  I own the movie, but I can't resell it.  I can always access it unless and until the service stops providing.  I don't have to continually pay for it and I can "kick others off my lawn" and not let them access my movie without permission.  If VUDU were to change the terms and start charging me more to watch the movie I "own" then I would have some small measure of legal standing to argue against.  Netflix on the other hand, which I also have, does not convey any rights other than access to their servers for the term of my contract which is month to month.  Do you acknowledge the difference?

So what I own in a sub-free game are the virtual goods (like movies on VUDU) that I have purchased.  I do have control over them within the framework of the game and can definitely tell other players to "get off my property" as in they don't have access or use of my virtual goods.

There are more than two places to live in the world (Park Place and the Projects), by the way both are rentals.  So by your analogy you can choose to rent in the projects or in Park Place, but most mmos have project pricing at $15 per month.  I doubt you're paying $50 / month in your MMO for a Park Place rental.  I may not own property in the virtual Beverly Hills, but that doesn't mean my only other choice is the projects.  I'm living, like most people around me that are homeowners, somewhere in between.  I mean do you actually live in either Park Place or The Projects?  Your park place analogy is actually just a shallow attempt at posturing that your game is high quality because you pay rent which we know is load of bull.  If you're going to make that argument the burden is on you to prove it, not me to disprove it.

 

 

 

  Bigmamajama

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/18/13
Posts: 206

9/09/13 11:17:00 AM#24
Originally posted by DMKano

To me it makes no difference what the pay model is - if i like a feature in a gsme, I like it regardless if it were F2P or P2P.

Minions and pets - never cared for them in any game (sub or f2p), so again to me the payment model has zero influence.

I think gameplay stands on its own, if the game is a fun and worth playing - that's what will get me playing, pay model is completely secondary and ultimately of little relevance to me.

Where the pay model comes into play is longevity and replay - I am a lot less likely to resub to a P2P game once I leave, example I stopped playing WoW in 2005 and never went back.

But F2P or B2P games, I am much more likely to revisit from time to time.

It makes no difference what the payment model is?  Really so you would pay 300 dollars a month on a F2P if you really liked it and wanted everything they had in the cash shop. Verses paying 15 a month for the same game if it was a P2P with all those items in game.

 

Okay sure.

  User Deleted
9/09/13 11:20:40 AM#25
Originally posted by Electro057
To each their own really......I  can't argue for either side, as I can see pros and cons in both F2P and P2P. I do support P2P more because I believe that model expects some measure of quality and attention....whereas F2P is free, so I expect less quality in those games. But each model has it's place and time...

 

This is how I feel as well.
  SpottyGekko

Elite Member

Joined: 9/26/04
Posts: 2454

9/09/13 11:26:41 AM#26
Originally posted by Torvaldr
...

So what I own in a sub-free game are the virtual goods (like movies on VUDU) that I have purchased.  I do have control over them within the framework of the game and can definitely tell other players to "get off my property" as in they don't have access or use of my virtual goods.

There are more than two places to live in the world (Park Place and the Projects), by the way both are rentals.  So by your analogy you can choose to rent in the projects or in Park Place, but most mmos have project pricing at $15 per month.  I doubt you're paying $50 / month in your MMO for a Park Place rental.  I may not own property in the virtual Beverly Hills, but that doesn't mean my only other choice is the projects.  I'm living, like most people around me that are homeowners, somewhere in between.  I mean do you actually live in either Park Place or The Projects?  Your park place analogy is actually just a shallow attempt at posturing that your game is high quality because you pay rent which we know is load of bull.  If you're going to make that argument the burden is on you to prove it, not me to disprove it.

 

 

 

Valiant attempt to wriggle out of the trap, but ultimately futile 

 

The difference is that with a P2P game, subbing for 1 year will give you unlimited access to ALL content and items in that game.

 

Buying the "rights" to use ALL the items in a F2P Cash Shop will usually set you back several years worth of P2P sub costs, even if you don't buy everything in the store.

 

So in the P2P model, you live in extreme digital luxury for a small monthly fee.

 

Of course, if you can get by with the basics in the F2P game, then that's the ideal solution for you. However, that also means you are not part of that game's target market.

  Husvik

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/21/05
Posts: 362

Having fun who cares.

9/09/13 11:28:37 AM#27

At the minimum each server should be well patrolled for gold spammers if it's a P2P.

I expect it goes with the territory with F2P but not P2P, i feel like WTF am i paying you for, these servers should be monitored, i'm paying for a service here, "show me the service".

  djazzy

Novice Member

Joined: 6/20/05
Posts: 3622

9/09/13 11:45:08 AM#28
Originally posted by Husvik

At the minimum each server should be well patrolled for gold spammers if it's a P2P.

you would think so but that's not necessarily true. I remember when Aion came out, the gold spamming was the worst I had ever seen anywhere, and that was a P2P game.

  Sk1ppeR

Elite Member

Joined: 4/29/12
Posts: 534

9/09/13 12:17:34 PM#29

If FFXIV was a B2P I'd be in line like many of you waiting for digital sales resume

Or well, I could've pre-ordered, like I did with Gw2. Buuut since they consider me a cheap cash cow ... no. Game's too old to ask for a sub. It blows my mind how a game like Gw2 "doesn't deserve your attention" when the guys at ANet are adding new stuff every other week for free 

 

and here you are paying monthly fees and keeping fingers crossed to log in ... weeks after launch.

 

Gw2 solved its issues on day 3, on time for the launch (I had early-access) but i must tell you ... i barely slept the whole early-access. I was constantly in |o| With some DCs because my ISP deserves some falcon punches buuuut other than that i had no issues. Although you should notice that im not saying Gw2's launch was flawless.  I was there, i read the forums, i saw some people were unable to get in. But do you know what Anet's team did? They worked day and night, even on weekends to fix their issues. THAT's how you launch an MMO. If they asked me for a sub, I would gladly sub and expect content every other week. You guys ... keep ur old mmo and hope for the best at the login screen. 

 

And to the OP ... mini pets are cool yep, I have almost all of them on my toon in Gw2. Never spent a dime for it ^_^ Even got Queen Jena as a birthday present *_* 

  Solid_Altair

Novice Member

Joined: 9/09/13
Posts: 27

9/09/13 5:15:03 PM#30
Originally posted by Cod_Eye

Paying 10 20 30 bucks for items will never be yours in f2p aswell but attached to your account, as is the free minions which are not rented as the subs pays for access to account, players can always go back and pay a sub at a later date if they wish to take a break.  I understand where you are coming from, but I'd rather pay a monthly sub and get as many pets as I wish in a day than pay an excessive amount for 1 pet, sometimes costing as much as 2 - 4 months subs.

Thank you. I've been searching for this information the whole day. And I dare to ask a confirmation about it:

1- Can we take a break from the game, spend a few months without paying the subscription fee, then get back to pay the subscription fee and resume our account, without loosing any items levels and stuff?

And I have a few other questions, if you guys can please answer them:

2- How can I pay for the monthly fee, if I'm playing on PS3? Is it sold on the PSN Store? Can I buy from somewhere else online? May I use paypal? What are the options? I'd prefer to buy it directly with paypal, cause in order to buy stuff from PSN I need to buy gift cards, which add a little extra cost.

3- Are servers alright already? I'm thinking about buying a hard copy for PS3, but generally I think it would be wiser to wait for them to resume the sales of digital copies. Even I'll buy a hard copy anyway, I intend to wait for the digital sales' return as a sign that the servers are OK. But... if the servers are already fine, I suppose I'd buy the hard copy ASAP. I'm really itching for a new game.

4- I've read that the transition from PS3 to PS4 will be free. This was what really made me consider buy the game. But, just to confirm... this free PS4 version will be an actual PS4 version, right? Not just a PS3 verison that you can play on PS4. I mean... the graphics will improve, right?

Thank you.

  Voqar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/28/04
Posts: 423

9/09/13 7:22:40 PM#31

F2P is garbage for MMORPGs.  It's a good model for other genres where it can be done without P2W, like in MOBAs.

 

In an MMORPG everybody should be paying the same - to have the same potential to EARN rewards.  It's just not possible to do F2P for MMORPGs without some element of P2W.

 

Gaining rewards by playing is a lot more satisfying than getting reward by throwing some cash at a cash shop.

 

This game does have some P2W though - buy the digital or other CEs - these days that get gets you some cool in-game loot (whereas in the past CE's were more about external perks).

  Husvik

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/21/05
Posts: 362

Having fun who cares.

9/09/13 7:29:34 PM#32
Originally posted by djazzy
Originally posted by Husvik

At the minimum each server should be well patrolled for gold spammers if it's a P2P.

you would think so but that's not necessarily true. I remember when Aion came out, the gold spamming was the worst I had ever seen anywhere, and that was a P2P game.

lol, that's funny because i started playing Aion a couple months ago for the first time, i passed on it when it came out and wow the gold spamming is extremely bad, it literally rolls the chat non stop but figured it's F2P problem. Guess not.

  drbaltazar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/28/07
Posts: 7927

9/10/13 5:07:41 PM#33
Ff14 is awesome !people won't Stay!why?sub!they all play the free month then start 5.4 or go back to their favorite buy to play game (gw2 or the secret world)normal people all over the planet can't afford sub.but they can afford buy to play like tsw and gw2
  Sk1ppeR

Elite Member

Joined: 4/29/12
Posts: 534

9/10/13 5:40:46 PM#34
Originally posted by Voqar

F2P is garbage for MMORPGs.  It's a good model for other genres where it can be done without P2W, like in MOBAs.

 

In an MMORPG everybody should be paying the same - to have the same potential to EARN rewards.  It's just not possible to do F2P for MMORPGs without some element of P2W.

 

Gaining rewards by playing is a lot more satisfying than getting reward by throwing some cash at a cash shop.

 

This game does have some P2W though - buy the digital or other CEs - these days that get gets you some cool in-game loot (whereas in the past CE's were more about external perks).

Don't be sheep-minded. Stop dealing with extremes. There is not only F2P and P2P in the world. And frankly not all F2P games are the same and some of them like Tera (from what i've heard) has the best F2P options ever. Then you have the B2P plan, like gw2, in which everybody is an equal, you do not pay premium to go somewhere or achieve something. You buy the damn box and THAT IS IT. You just sit back and enjoy the show. Sure you can boost your exp big deal, Whoever kills trains of mobs to gain levels in Gw2 and ignoring the other possibilities is an idiot anyway xD 

 

So pretty much, considfering the shit FFXIV players have been put through for the past few weeks, I daresay P2P is a bloody scam that show be gone. Plain and simple. Buy to play is the future, where you can go and pay the development cost for you (that's usually a pricetag of 60$) and OWN the damn game. You OWN that shit, you do whatever you want with it. Just like you would with Battlefield 3/4 or w/e version they got in Call of Duty nowadays. 

 

How would you feel if your microwave charged you extra 15$ each month? Even though you payed for it and you OWN it. 

I can only justify P2P if there is NO box price, like EVE. And even then its VERY questonable, given the amount of content we get out of Gw2 for 0 cents

 

P.S: And damn there are so many achievements still left for me to do in Gw2 ._. 1 year in ... playing every single day. It just blows my mind

  faiyo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/09/13
Posts: 125

9/10/13 5:54:17 PM#35
Do we really need constant reassurance threads that the game isn't f2p? Because.. it's not. Jesus lol
  drbaltazar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/28/07
Posts: 7927

9/10/13 6:06:45 PM#36
I like ff14!but enough to warrant a 15$ monthly?right now.yes because of the free month!tsw is happy I paid them there is no cost .but frankly tsw feel better !bang for $ wise same for gw2.why would I sub one game when I can play gw2 and tsw at no extra cost .till they feel time is right for a big paid update!but then ,ff14 is so uber that everybody might keep sub.if any can make this happen its a ff frannchise
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